WashU vs. Brown premed? Please HELP, I'm incredibly stuck.

[BobbyMaye]

Hi! I hope you're all doing well.

I just graduated high school in June of this year, ready to attend undergrad in the fall.

I committed to WashU intending to go on the pre-med track (wherever I go, I plan of majoring/researching biochem, but I'm also interested in studying and making a large impact in the area of global health/public health/anthropology/health policy/health education, but tbh I'm really interested in other things such as business and neuro.

One factor I think is important to mention when deciding was that within WashU I was accepted into a really small and very selective program that essentially teaches students about medical anthropology, and gears students towards and career in healthcare for all 4 years of undergrad. The program also helps students gain a community healthcare-related internship and start service-oriented research sometime after your first or second year of college, with better access to anthropology faculty. The students are shown to have good success when applying to medical school coming out of the program.

That being said, I recently found out that I got off the waitlist for Brown. I really like both schools, so I want to make an unbiased decision about where to go for the best chance at top medical schools and also what will help me make the greatest impact in the areas I want to study. I will also note that even though I got off the waitlist late for Brown, there are no consequences to enrolling late. I will be choosing classes at the same time as everyone else. Cost is not a factor as well.

So that's my situation. I'm not sure which school would be the best for me to get into top medical schools and have the best programs/civic impact in the areas I want to study and my career. At first glance with matriculation statistics, both schools are similarly comparable with sending students to top medical programs. That being said, St. Louis and Rhode Island are very different places. I'm not sure if going to an Ivy and its Ivy "connections" (as well as the ability to attain a higher GPA easier) here outweighs WashU, especially in the areas I want to study as well, which is why I'm really stuck and don't have much time to decide. I'm also not sure if the lack of structure at Brown is something that's very beneficial compared to the program I'm already in at WashU, which is why I'm stuck.

Please let me know what you all think, what factors are important, and overall what benefits of one school outweigh the other if possible. I will answer any questions you have. Thank you so much in advance!

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[Blueprint Med School]

They're both incredible schools. There is no wrong answer here. Both will give you plenty to fill your resume for whatever you want to do post undergrad.

Whatever program you think is the better fit for you and what's important to you is the right one. It sounds like you're leaning WashU, and if that's the case, don't flip just because the other one has an Ivy designation.

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[deleted1064759]

Doesn't Brown take a lot of their undergrad students and isn't WashU known for deflation? If so, I think that makes your choice a bit easier.

 

[KnightDoc]

Doesn't Brown take a lot of their undergrad students and isn't WashU known for deflation? If so, I think that makes your choice a bit easier.

Not at all. You have to look at outcomes, and they are very similar at all of the top schools.

Would your opinion change knowing that WashU premeds do disproportionately well on the MCAT relative to their deflated GPAs? Or that Brown's great placement rate at its med school is due to the very high intake through its BS/MD program, which OP is not in?

The choice isn't easy at all based on the usual SDN concerns, and there is way more to what seems like common knowledge if you scratch below the surface. As @MedSchoolTutors pointed out, they are both great choices, so OP should choose whatever makes him happiest, without regard to what MIGHT help in a med school application down the road.

 

[mvsrocks]

For the deflated GPA point, medical schools are pretty aware that WashU premed is rigorous. Thus, for a given GPA and MCAT score, WashU's average acceptance rates are statistically significantly higher than the national average. We call it the WashU bump.

Edit: Oh also I just graduated from WashU so lmk if you have any questions!

 

[BobbyMaye]

For the deflated GPA point, medical schools are pretty aware that WashU premed is rigorous. Thus, for a given GPA and MCAT score, WashU's average acceptance rates are statistically significantly higher than the national average. We call it the WashU bump.

Edit: Oh also I just graduated from WashU so lmk if you have any questions!

I think you're right! Also, congrats on graduating from WashU! What's your postgrad plan?

Also for questions, do you think that being in the Medicine and Society program at WashU is a factor that's pretty important to be considered? Also, although I've heard that WashU premed is rigorous, do you think that's it's manageable to get really high GPA? Do you think that the time needed to attain a high GPA as a premed takes away significantly from the time needed for extracurriculars/projects and making an impact outside of school? Lastly, are there any tips/points that you think would be beneficial for a premed starting WashU planning to major in biochem and minor in anthro/public health?

 

[BobbyMaye]

For the deflated GPA point, medical schools are pretty aware that WashU premed is rigorous. Thus, for a given GPA and MCAT score, WashU's average acceptance rates are statistically significantly higher than the national average. We call it the WashU bump.

Edit: Oh also I just graduated from WashU so lmk if you have any questions!

Also, would you say you generally enjoyed your experience(had time to actually enjoy your surroundings) or was it constantly stressful?

 

[BobbyMaye]

Not at all. You have to look at outcomes, and they are very similar at all of the top schools.

Would your opinion change knowing that WashU premeds do disproportionately well on the MCAT relative to their deflated GPAs? Or that Brown's great placement rate at its med school is due to the very high intake through its BS/MD program, which OP is not in?

The choice isn't easy at all based on the usual SDN concerns, and there is way more to what seems like common knowledge if you scratch below the surface. As @MedSchoolTutors pointed out, they are both great choices, so OP should choose whatever makes him happiest, without regard to what MIGHT help in a med school application down the road.

Thank you for your response! I don't know if this is a huge factor either, but I think that being in the medicine and society program at WashU(a program that sends students to top med schools, or so that's what they've displayed) and their higher ranked medical school(which premeds from WashU have a higher chance of getting into) tips the decision in favor of WashU.
I also don't know if this is valid(feel free to comment about this), but I think I would better with the more structure available at WashU than Brown, not to mention being a part of the Medicine and Society program. On top of this, I think that having a bit more manageable rigor with classes will build the discipline needed to become a leader in academia later on, though I'm not sure if this is a big deal since Brown is also a good school. I also saw many successful premeds(many going to the top med schools right now) from WashU get involved with some civic programs and activities that I have interest in doing as well, so that's somewhat of a working plan right now, though I'm sure there at similar programs at Brown(perhaps more research is needed).

If I switch into Brown now, i'll feel a bit uneasy since I don't have as clear of a path(not being in MedSoc and the Open Curriculum) and more academic freedom, which I see as either a good or bad thing, I'm not sure. I just don't know if the allure of going to an Ivy or it's Ivy connections is a factor that outweighs everything, especially in your long term career. I also don't know if this is certain, but something else holding me back is that I have the impression that in terms of making a civic change(whether that be in education, activism, health policy), Brown would provide a better platform for its students to get involved and make a bigger long term impact in your career. I'm just not sure with these pros and cons.
Please let me know your thoughts! Your comments are highly appreciated, so thank you!

 

[KnightDoc]

Thank you for your response! I don't know if this is a huge factor either, but I think that being in the medicine and society program at WashU(a program that sends students to top med schools, or so that's what they've displayed) and their higher ranked medical school(which premeds from WashU have a higher chance of getting into) tips the decision in favor of WashU.
I also don't know if this is valid(feel free to comment about this), but I think I would better with the more structure available at WashU than Brown, not to mention being a part of the Medicine and Society program. On top of this, I think that having a bit more manageable rigor with classes will build the discipline needed to become a leader in academia later on, though I'm not sure if this is a big deal since Brown is also a good school. I also saw many successful premeds(many going to the top med schools right now) from WashU get involved with some civic programs and activities that I have interest in doing as well, so that's somewhat of a working plan right now, though I'm sure there at similar programs at Brown(perhaps more research is needed).

If I switch into Brown now, i'll feel a bit uneasy since I don't have as clear of a path(not being in MedSoc and the Open Curriculum) and more academic freedom, which I see as either a good or bad thing, I'm not sure. I just don't know if the allure of going to an Ivy or it's Ivy connections is a factor that outweighs everything, especially in your long term career. I also don't know if this is certain, but something else holding me back is that I have the impression that in terms of making a civic change(whether that be in education, activism, health policy), Brown would provide a better platform for its students to get involved and make a bigger long term impact in your career. I'm just not sure with these pros and cons.
Please let me know your thoughts! Your comments are highly appreciated, so thank you!

I'm going to stick with what I said originally. They really are both great choices, so you should go with your gut and choose whichever one will make you happier over the next four years, without regard to any possible slight bump one might give you over the other in a med school application.

Keep in mind that around 50,000 people apply each year for around 20,000 US MD seats, and people at all sorts of schools, from HYPSM down to the lowest ranked school you can imagine have successful outcomes, as well as negative ones. Yes, it's true!!! People at schools you would never consider are accepted into med school every year while many applicants from both Brown and WashU are rejected. I firmly believe that the better schools have better outcomes because they have better students, not because med schools really care about the prestige of the UG, which explains why Harvard UG sends some people to the Caribbean every year while mid ranked state schools send some people to HMS every year.

Prestige and resources sure don't hurt, but they guarantee NOTHING, so don't make a decision based on a perceived advantage that might or might not materialize for you. Choose based on where you will be happiest and get the most out of the experience. Based on what you have posted, it looks like WashU for you! Just don't worry about the grade deflation. Listen to @mvsrocks, and, if you insist, look at premed outcomes at the two schools, making sure to back out stats related to their respective BS/MD programs, which will be irrelevant to your experience at either of the two schools.

 

[MyOdyssey]

@efle

 

[efle]

WashU alum here. Brown was my #1 choice for college (rejected).

WashU is the stronger premed/medicine institution but Brown will be much more relaxed (inflated grading, flexible courses and less premeds) and a better college experience in my opinion. Brown is somewhat of a hippy redheaded stepchild among the Ivies, and I wouldn't choose it for any perceived prestige differences. But for all the other reasons, it comes out ahead, unless your ideal university experience is rigorous and harshly curved premed coursework among an extraordinarily wealthy student body.

Not that I disliked WashU - I ended up loving every minute of college there - but a lot of my friends struggled a great deal and many would have been medical students right now if they'd attended somewhere like Brown instead.

 

[MyOdyssey]

WashU alum here. Brown was my #1 choice for college (rejected).

WashU is the stronger premed/medicine institution but Brown will be much more relaxed (inflated grading, flexible courses and less premeds) and a better college experience in my opinion. Brown is somewhat of a hippy redheaded stepchild among the Ivies, and I wouldn't choose it for any perceived prestige differences. But for all the other reasons, it comes out ahead, unless your ideal university experience is rigorous and harshly curved premed coursework among an extraordinarily wealthy student body.

Not that I disliked WashU - I ended up loving every minute of college there - but a lot of my friends struggled a great deal and many would have been medical students right now if they'd attended somewhere like Brown instead.

What did you like about Wash U? How did Wash U's connection to a well-regarded medical school help you (if it did)?

 

[mvsrocks]

Also for questions, do you think that being in the Medicine and Society program at WashU is a factor that's pretty important to be considered? Also, although I've heard that WashU premed is rigorous, do you think that's it's manageable to get really high GPA? Do you think that the time needed to attain a high GPA as a premed takes away significantly from the time needed for extracurriculars/projects and making an impact outside of school? Lastly, are there any tips/points that you think would be beneficial for a premed starting WashU planning to major in biochem and minor in anthro/public health?

I actually don't know anyone from the Medicine and Society program (at least, they haven't told me if they are). But regardless of whether the program's name has an effect on admissions, the experiences it provides will no doubt help you.

Regarding premed rigor, I majored in Biochem through the chem deparment and actually didn't think it was too too bad (though much sleep was sacrificed for a 4.0, and your mileage may vary). There are so many resources for help, especially for intro level classes like gen chem and bio, and upper level classes have office hours of course. Doing well just depends on your work ethic and how much you seek help. Gen chem at WashU was one of the best, most structured classes I've ever taken, and most people I've talked to loved it. While many upper level classes were difficult, the most difficult ones were also my favorite (Biochem II w/ Patti, Pchem I w/ Fornier). It's definitely manageable to do research/ECs at the same time, as long as you don't take 21 credits/semester.

Tips:
-use freshman year to explore, but get on top of your sh** sophomore year. Gotta start building those meaningful experiences early!
-it's really easy to start research at WashU (cold emailed a few professors, and some of them responded in minutes).
-VERY IMPORTANT: RESEARCH YOUR LAB before choosing. Some labs are more productive than others and can help you get a publication, though it's still luck-based. You can check the frequency of a lab's publications to get a general idea
-If you're addicted to coffee, there is an unlimited coffee plan you can purchase w/ meal points (though I didn't buy cuz I don't drink coffee)
-Always do the cheapest meal plan possible. People always try to get rid of extra mealpoints at the end of semester at super cheap rates
-Join WashU FB groups (free and for sale, meal point groups)
-Bring a heavy coat for winter
-Some clubs to look for at the activities fair include Campus Y stuff and Heart for the Homeless club.
-Try not to schedule 9 am classes unless you're a masochist.
-don't live on the the first floor of wheeler house. Ants might still be there

Overall, I really enjoyed my experience at WashU, though it took a year to find my group of people. The only regret I have is not stepping outside of WashU's bubble sooner.

Good luck!

 

[efle]

What did you like about Wash U? How did Wash U's connection to a well-regarded medical school help you (if it did)?

It was a good fit for me for unique reasons (highschool sweetheart also admitted and attended with me, very strong club in the sport I played, unique Phil-Neuro-Psych department I picked up a second major in).

The premed resources are plentiful. I had a part-time job in a lab the med school, plus research-for-credits at a different lab in the med school, volunteered there, shadowed there, got my gap year job in clinical research there. I was also admitted to their MD program like most of the high GPA students are, and would have attended if they had price-matched my alternatives. Since ~20-25% of the student body applies to med school every year, they have it all down to a science.

Not to say that Brown lacks these resources, but premed/medicine is much less of an overall focus. More smiling people with brightly dyed hair and diverse backgrounds, less people bursting into tears at the exam returns. I'm a very type B dude from SoCal and would have liked the former vibe better.

 

[erdoc111]

Are both universities going in class in the fall? Is one virtual? Are they both on campus? This is something you may want to consider in light of COVID.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Hi! I hope you're all doing well.

I just graduated high school in June of this year, ready to attend undergrad in the fall.

I committed to WashU intending to go on the pre-med track (wherever I go, I plan of majoring/researching biochem, but I'm also interested in studying and making a large impact in the area of global health/public health/anthropology/health policy/health education, but tbh I'm really interested in other things such as business and neuro.

One factor I think is important to mention when deciding was that within WashU I was accepted into a really small and very selective program that essentially teaches students about medical anthropology, and gears students towards and career in healthcare for all 4 years of undergrad. The program also helps students gain a community healthcare-related internship and start service-oriented research sometime after your first or second year of college, with better access to anthropology faculty. The students are shown to have good success when applying to medical school coming out of the program.

That being said, I recently found out that I got off the waitlist for Brown. I really like both schools, so I want to make an unbiased decision about where to go for the best chance at top medical schools and also what will help me make the greatest impact in the areas I want to study. I will also note that even though I got off the waitlist late for Brown, there are no consequences to enrolling late. I will be choosing classes at the same time as everyone else. Cost is not a factor as well.

So that's my situation. I'm not sure which school would be the best for me to get into top medical schools and have the best programs/civic impact in the areas I want to study and my career. At first glance with matriculation statistics, both schools are similarly comparable with sending students to top medical programs. That being said, St. Louis and Rhode Island are very different places. I'm not sure if going to an Ivy and its Ivy "connections" (as well as the ability to attain a higher GPA easier) here outweighs WashU, especially in the areas I want to study as well, which is why I'm really stuck and don't have much time to decide. I'm also not sure if the lack of structure at Brown is something that's very beneficial compared to the program I'm already in at WashU, which is why I'm stuck.

Please let me know what you all think, what factors are important, and overall what benefits of one school outweigh the other if possible. I will answer any questions you have. Thank you so much in advance!

I don't think going Brown will give you Ivy advantage when comes to medical school admissions. If you went to a highly competitive HS and didn't sweat too much to get As then go with WashU since you are in a selective program. On other hand you if you went to a easier HS or got admissions to WashU and Brown due to your ECs or other factors then you need to worry about getting good GPA at WashU.

 

[efle]

If you went to a highly competitive HS and didn't sweat too much to get As then go with WashU since you are in a selective program.

Honestly even then you need to worry. Most of the class at WashU was at excellent private high schools and made straight A's and top 1% test scores. Only 1/3rd get a 3.7+ in the BCPM coursework. Same with others like Hopkins, MIT, Princeton, Chicago, etc. Unless you were one of the savants learning calculus in middle school it's a real risk that should be considered.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Honestly even then you need to worry. Most of the class at WashU was at excellent private high schools and made straight A's and top 1% test scores. Only 1/3rd get a 3.7+ in the BCPM coursework. Same with others like Hopkins, MIT, Princeton, Chicago, etc. Unless you were one of the savants learning calculus in middle school it's a real risk that should be considered.

What percentage of those with less than 3.7 GPA (and ORM) get admissions without gap year(s)?

 

[efle]

What percentage of those with less than 3.7 GPA (and ORM) get admissions without gap year(s)?

The admit rate for lower GPAs is still good (at 80% among 3.4-3.59 around when I enrolled).

But, that's after roughly 2/3rds of entering premeds have been weeded out and is mostly propped up by how absurdly strong the survivors perform on the MCAT relative to the same GPA nationally. For example, the ~3.3 GPA students at WashU outperform the national ~3.9 cohort.

I don't have any data on race or gap years. I also can't tell you where these people are landing. For example, lets say someone is a Missouri resident and chooses WashU over Mizzou. They get a 3.3 GPA instead of a 3.9, and score high on the MCAT. They are likely going to end up at something like Mizzou for their MD, whereas with the straight As, they would have been in the running for t20s MDs.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

The admit rate for lower GPAs is still good (at 80% among 3.4-3.59 around when I enrolled).

But, that's after roughly 2/3rds of entering premeds have been weeded out and is mostly propped up by how absurdly strong the survivors perform on the MCAT relative to the same GPA nationally. For example, the ~3.3 GPA students at WashU outperform the national ~3.9 cohort.

I don't have any data on race or gap years. I also can't tell you where these people are landing. For example, lets say someone is a Missouri resident and chooses WashU over Mizzou. They get a 3.3 GPA instead of a 3.9, and score high on the MCAT. They are likely going to end up at something like Mizzou for their MD, whereas with the straight As, they would have been in the running for t20s MDs.

here is latest data.

2014-2018AS_BCPMvsGPAGrid.pdf | Powered by Box

wustl.app.box.com

 

[KnightDoc]

here is latest data.

2014-2018AS_BCPMvsGPAGrid.pdf | Powered by Box

wustl.app.box.com

"Latest" is probably stretching it, since it's from 2014-18, but it is still very much appreciated!!!

 

[RJ McReady]

I’m a WashU alum
Had a 3.9+ gpa, 516 mcat
2 published papers, hundreds of hours paid work experience in the medical field, volunteered 200+ hours at a hospital,
They didn’t even grant me an interview

Go to Brown.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I’m a WashU alum
Had a 3.9+ gpa, 516 mcat
2 published papers, hundreds of hours paid work experience in the medical field, volunteered 200+ hours at a hospital,
They didn’t even grant me an interview

Go to Brown.

Not surprised, WashU and Vandy are called stats wh0res.

 

[efle]

Not surprised, WashU and Vandy are called stats wh0res.

Hate the game, not the players. Most of the top schools are guilty of the same thing, just not to as extreme of a degree. The education system at all levels (competitive colleges, med schools, residencies) is becoming obsessed with ranks and objective data, and this is a natural result.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Hate the game, not the players. Most of the top schools are guilty of the same thing, just not to as extreme of a degree. The education system at all levels (competitive colleges, med schools, residencies) is becoming obsessed with ranks and objective data, and this is a natural result.

UCal is well on the way to permanently abolishing the ACT and SAT.

Many others have gone SAT optional including highly selective ones like U Chicago and Bowdoin.

Med schools have gone increasingly P/F. Step 1s have gone P/F.

GREs are heavily deemphasized in grad school admissions.

I would argue that the trend is away from objective measures to an alarming degree.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Hate the game, not the players. Most of the top schools are guilty of the same thing, just not to as extreme of a degree. The education system at all levels (competitive colleges, med schools, residencies) is becoming obsessed with ranks and objective data, and this is a natural result.

I am not hating those schools, just pointing out their criteria. I actually like those schools and my son applied to both schools.

 

[efle]

UCal is well on the way to permanently abolishing the ACT and SAT.

Many others have gone SAT optional including highly selective ones like U Chicago and Bowdoin.

Med schools have gone increasingly P/F. Step 1s have gone P/F.

GREs are heavily deemphasized in grad school admissions.

I would argue that the trend is away from objective measures to an alarming degree.

Some lines I do not think we will see crossed, though. If places like JHU or WashU voluntarily stop using MCAT scores in my lifetime I will eat my hat.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Some lines I do not think we will see crossed, though. If places like JHU or WashU voluntarily stop using MCAT scores in my lifetime I will eat my hat.

What about MCAT optional?

 

[efle]

What about MCAT optional?

That's unlikely to ever be an option anywhere because once you start dropping into the bottom two quartiles, MCAT performance correlates with needing additional board attempts, repeated years, etc.

Something like Pass/Fail where 500+ becomes Pass is the more possible change, I think. That would come down from the AAMC I think though, rather than schools.

 

[Sea Otter]

Wash U alum here. I came from a public high school and only had a few AP classes prior to enrolling and ended up with a GPA around 3.7. Always felt like I had a ton of support and resources. Set me up well for med school. I was very happy with my Wash U experience.

I can’t speak on Brown but I’d say that if you can succeed at one school you can probably succeed at another. You said finances won’t impact your decision so ultimately you should just go where you’ll be happiest.

 

[efle]

Wash U alum here. GPA 3.7 and MCAT 512. Always felt like I had a ton of support and resources. Set me up well for med school. I came from a public high school and only had a few AP classes prior to enrolling and did just fine. I was very happy with my Wash U experience.

What percentage of your incoming freshman GenChem I group made it through the end of OChem II/Biochem? For my year it was 950 --> 300

 

[Sea Otter]

What percentage of your incoming freshman GenChem I group made it through the end of OChem II/Biochem? For my year it was 950 --> 300

I don’t know the numbers exactly but I’d put it at around 50% or less. Anecdotally, of my friends that stopped the sequence, none were because it was “too hard”.

 

[MyOdyssey]

That's unlikely to ever be an option anywhere because once you start dropping into the bottom two quartiles, MCAT performance correlates with needing additional board attempts, repeated years, etc.

Something like Pass/Fail where 500+ becomes Pass is the more possible change, I think. That would come down from the AAMC I think though, rather than schools.

If that ever becomes the case, then every undergrad institution has even more reason to grade inflate like crazy since GPA then becomes the sole objective distinguishing characteristic.

It remains to be seen whether U Cal's SAT abolition movement takes hold in the rest of the country. The data strongly supports that the SAT does predict collegiate academic performance but I get the impression that many in college admissions don't really care about that anymore.

 

[BobbyMaye]

I’m a WashU alum
Had a 3.9+ gpa, 516 mcat
2 published papers, hundreds of hours paid work experience in the medical field, volunteered 200+ hours at a hospital,
They didn’t even grant me an interview

Go to Brown.

perhaps maybe this is because you were a candidate too focused on medicine-related extracurriculars? I've heard that's it's always important to have non-medicine related activities/passions so that you'll stand out.

 

[BobbyMaye]

Wash U alum here. I came from a public high school and only had a few AP classes prior to enrolling and ended up with a GPA around 3.7. Always felt like I had a ton of support and resources. Set me up well for med school. I was very happy with my Wash U experience.

I can’t speak on Brown but I’d say that if you can succeed at one school you can probably succeed at another. You said finances won’t impact your decision so ultimately you should just go where you’ll be happiest.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you end up after premed at WashU? Are you happy with your med school choices and did you feel it was reflective of your experience at WashU? Lastly, do you think it is difficult to maintain a high GPA(3.9-4.0)?
I ultimately chose WashU(mostly because I was already a medicine and society scholar there, which apparently has higher success at med school), and some of the comments saying go to Brown worried me a bit. I felt that at WashU I had a clear path to top med schools(get a high GPA and MCAT and have good extracurriculars), and although it does seem harder, the support is good. I also felt that you get much more meaningful medicine-related extracurriculars, and I also thought St. Louis was a much better place to try and implement civic change than at Rhode Island.

Am I wrong for thinking this way? Also, would it be hard for me to get the GPA I want(3.9+), if I came from a relatively easy high school but breezed through classes?
Please let me know your thoughts, thank you for your original reply.

 

[RJ McReady]

perhaps maybe this is because you were a candidate too focused on medicine-related extracurriculars? I've heard that's it's always important to have non-medicine related activities/passions so that you'll stand out.

I went to WashU specifically bc of the Medicine in Society program you mentioned. Double majored in Chemistry and Anthropology. I
worked at a petroleum company part time during school to earn money to help pay tuition because my family’s income just missed the cutoff for need based financial aid. Was phi beta kappa, graduated summa cum laude. I was a dj on the campus radio station. At the very least, as an alum, I thought I deserved an interview. In the end it worked out for me, I’m in med school now but I can’t lie, it was a kick in the teeth to not at least get an interview.

 

[RJ McReady]

In addition, I received very poor pre-medical advising there. Because of my high GPA, double major, etc., I was told to apply to only 15 scores. Thank God I did not listen to that advice, because I would be sitting here right now with no acceptances and having to reapply. I applied to 34 schools, applied broadly, and was fortunate to receive several interviews, but very few at top 20 schools. The pre-medical advising at wash U is a joke.

 

[efle]

I don’t know the numbers exactly but I’d put it at around 50% or less. Anecdotally, of my friends that stopped the sequence, none were because it was “too hard”.

Interesting, out of my friends who stopped the sequence, all of them were because they were working too hard and/or not making high enough BCPM grades. I didn't know a single person who was acing the prereqs but decided to quit after shadowing or something! What did they end up doing instead?

 

[mvsrocks]

The pre-medical advising at wash U is a joke.

Yeah I kinda agree with this. Just use the prehealth office for rec letter stuff and use SDN for advising. Dean Herman (the person in-charge of prehealth office) is decent but my assigned advisor wasn't great.

 

[RJ McReady]

It’s pretty well known that WashU weighs high mcat scores almost to the exclusion of everything else. Their claim of holistic application reviews is pure garbage. I learned that the hard way.

 

[efle]

If you don't mind me asking, where did you end up after premed at WashU? Are you happy with your med school choices and did you feel it was reflective of your experience at WashU? Lastly, do you think it is difficult to maintain a high GPA(3.9-4.0)?
I ultimately chose WashU(mostly because I was already a medicine and society scholar there, which apparently has higher success at med school), and some of the comments saying go to Brown worried me a bit. I felt that at WashU I had a clear path to top med schools(get a high GPA and MCAT and have good extracurriculars), and although it does seem harder, the support is good. I also felt that you get much more meaningful medicine-related extracurriculars, and I also thought St. Louis was a much better place to try and implement civic change than at Rhode Island.

Am I wrong for thinking this way? Also, would it be hard for me to get the GPA I want(3.9+), if I came from a relatively easy high school but breezed through classes?
Please let me know your thoughts, thank you for your original reply.

Using the MCAT as a benchmark, I can tell you making a high sGPA was considerably harder than scoring high on the MCAT was. I was also from a public high school, had taken AP chem and bio. The WashU classes made those look like a joke

Should also specify that it's sGPA that is hard to keep high. That's the GPA on those grids and is viewed as a separate GPA on AMCAS by medical schools. A high cGPA is much more attainable depending what you major in, and that can help mitigate some of the damage.

 

[Sea Otter]

If you don't mind me asking, where did you end up after premed at WashU? Are you happy with your med school choices and did you feel it was reflective of your experience at WashU? Lastly, do you think it is difficult to maintain a high GPA(3.9-4.0)?
I ultimately chose WashU(mostly because I was already a medicine and society scholar there, which apparently has higher success at med school), and some of the comments saying go to Brown worried me a bit. I felt that at WashU I had a clear path to top med schools(get a high GPA and MCAT and have good extracurriculars), and although it does seem harder, the support is good. I also felt that you get much more meaningful medicine-related extracurriculars, and I also thought St. Louis was a much better place to try and implement civic change than at Rhode Island.

Am I wrong for thinking this way? Also, would it be hard for me to get the GPA I want(3.9+), if I came from a relatively easy high school but breezed through classes?
Please let me know your thoughts, thank you for your original reply.

I ended up at a mid-tier program. Was lucky enough to have several options. Didn’t have the fancy stats for a top 20. I did interview at Wash U, which I was honestly a little surprised I got since my stats were so much below their average (being an alum probably helped though).

I can’t say how many Wash U students end up with a 3.9+ but I can tell you I had two good friends who did. One went to a top 20 med school and went on to a top 2 pediatrics residency. The other had a full ride to a top 40 and is now and orthopedic surgery resident.

 

[RJ McReady]

Using the MCAT as a benchmark, I can tell you making a high sGPA was considerably harder than scoring high on the MCAT was.

Totally agree with this

 

[Sea Otter]

Interesting, out of my friends who stopped the sequence, all of them were because they were working too hard and/or not making high enough BCPM grades. I didn't know a single person who was acing the prereqs but decided to quit after shadowing or something! What did they end up doing instead?

It may have just been my particular friend group that everyone either stuck it out or went another route because of interest. One did Teach for American then got their masters in social and urban polic from Harvard. Another switched to engineering.
I’m sure there are plenty that get a C in gen chem and “realize their passion is in XXX and not medicine” lol.

 

[efle]

I can’t say how many Wash U students end up with a 3.9+

Well from the grid we can say 348 got a 3.8-4.0 across 5 years. So probably about 175 in 5 years, or 35 people per class (~10% of the people who make it to application).

^ For sGPA, that is

 

[efle]

This may also be of interest

Case Study: What GPAs from a Top 20 premed powerhouse college, get into the top medical schools?

Back when I frequented the premedical side of SDN, one of the common debates was about whether the intense competition at highly ranked undergrads was accounted for by the admissions committees of highly ranked medical schools. Do you get any forgiveness for getting B grades? How many people end...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Sea Otter]

Well from the grid we can say 348 got a 3.8-4.0 across 5 years. So probably about 175 in 5 years, or 35 people per class (~10% of the people who make it to application).

^ For sGPA, that is

Ouch.

Insert Hunger Games “may the odds be ever in your favor” meme here

 

[BobbyMaye]

Yikes. I came from a relatively easy public school and the classes weren't too bad and was able to get all As. For SAT scores and such, I didn't ace them, but scored relatively well. My impression was that although WashU classes are not easy, there are enough resources, and if you use all the support, you can get a 3.8-4.0 GPA and still have the time for other extracurriculars(am I wrong about this?), which I plan to have mainly research and medicine related extracurriculars like shadowing and volunteering but also spend a lot of my time implementing civic change in the St. Louis area, mainly through art and education, or perhaps a project internationally. I feel like this is some sort of plan I'm comfortable with as opposed to not really having as much of a plan switching to Brown.

My main reason for leaning toward WashU is that although it is tough, I've seen a lot of real cases(LinkedIn, online forums) of people at WashU working hard and going to a top 20 medical school, whereas I haven't really seen the same concrete proof from Brown as much or as often. Although I may be wrong, but my impression is that although it's easier to work through a premed education at Brown, fewer end up at top 20 med schools.

I definitely don't want to burn out in college, but I also am really striving for a top 20 medical school. If Brown and WashU has similar stats at sending students to top 20 medical schools, I think Brown would be the much better experience(I'm definitely not certain that I can get a 3.8-4.0 at WashU, but I am definitely a hard worker and have done well so far, so I may be wrong). But the issue is that I'm not seeing as many stories of people from Brown doing well and going to a top 20 medical school as opposed to WashU.

Am I wrong with this thinking and choosing WashU in this situation?

 

[BobbyMaye]

Well from the grid we can say 348 got a 3.8-4.0 across 5 years. So probably about 175 in 5 years, or 35 people per class (~10% of the people who make it to application).

^ For sGPA, that is

Well this is absolutely terrifying. This makes me wonder if achieving this GPA and trying to carry out other time consuming extracurriculars for a top 20 med school isn't doable.

 

[BobbyMaye]

I ended up at a mid-tier program. Was lucky enough to have several options. Didn’t have the fancy stats for a top 20. I did interview at Wash U, which I was honestly a little surprised I got since my stats were so much below their average (being an alum probably helped though).

I can’t say how many Wash U students end up with a 3.9+ but I can tell you I had two good friends who did. One went to a top 20 med school and went on to a top 2 pediatrics residency. The other had a full ride to a top 40 and is now and orthopedic surgery resident.

If you had the choice in this situation(Brown or WashU, assuming you were already in the Medicine and Society program at WashU), which one would you pick if you wanted to go to a top 20 med school? I ask this because of your current experience at WashU and also coming from a public school like me.