Wayne vs MSU

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Smists

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Can people give some reasons why they chose one school over the other? And confirm/correct the following impressions.

I know that while training at Wayne, one will come across the spectrum of common diseases and illnesses resulting in a great clinical education.

From looking over MSU's website, I can see that their curriculum differs from Wayne. Two striking differences are PBL and interdisciplinary subjects on medicine (humanities and culture). I believe the latter is optional at Wayne.

MSU also seems to offer basic science research opportunities. While interviewing at Wayne, I was told to not go there if interested in research. But a fellow interviewee (a Wayne undergrad) said that was not true.

I always had the notion that MSU focused on rural medicine, however, it seems they offer a broad range of clinical sites from urban to rural. Can anyone offer comparisons between the two schools on diversity for patients population and peers (health professionals, students, faculty)?
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From MSU's website, a student profile mentions that during clerkships, there were not many students at each site. This allowed them to do more things (assist in surgery). I can't remember if Wayne is the same, since it has many clinical sites.
 
Smists said:
Can people give some reasons why they chose one school over the other? And confirm/correct the following impressions.

I know that while training at Wayne, one will come across the spectrum of common diseases and illnesses resulting in a great clinical education.

From looking over MSU's website, I can see that their curriculum differs from Wayne. Two striking differences are PBL and interdisciplinary subjects on medicine (humanities and culture). I believe the latter is optional at Wayne.

MSU also seems to offer basic science research opportunities. While interviewing at Wayne, I was told to not go there if interested in research. But a fellow interviewee (a Wayne undergrad) said that was not true.

I always had the notion that MSU focused on rural medicine, however, it seems they offer a broad range of clinical sites from urban to rural. Can anyone offer comparisons between the two schools on diversity for patients population and peers (health professionals, students, faculty)?
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also don't forget the brand new branch opening at grand rapids. After studying at a dirty old undergrad institution, i'd study at a brand new place over any other university. this might be because i tend to learn a lot better in a brand new building.


so I'd definitely choose msu over wayne.
 
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Smists said:
From MSU's website, a student profile mentions that during clerkships, there were not many students at each site. This allowed them to do more things (assist in surgery). I can't remember if Wayne is the same, since it has many clinical sites.
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with a class size of 300, you'd end up fighting for a chance to assist in surgery.
 
 
Smists said:
Can people give some reasons why they chose one school over the other? And confirm/correct the following impressions.

I know that while training at Wayne, one will come across the spectrum of common diseases and illnesses resulting in a great clinical education.

From looking over MSU's website, I can see that their curriculum differs from Wayne. Two striking differences are PBL and interdisciplinary subjects on medicine (humanities and culture). I believe the latter is optional at Wayne.

MSU also seems to offer basic science research opportunities. While interviewing at Wayne, I was told to not go there if interested in research. But a fellow interviewee (a Wayne undergrad) said that was not true.

I always had the notion that MSU focused on rural medicine, however, it seems they offer a broad range of clinical sites from urban to rural. Can anyone offer comparisons between the two schools on diversity for patients population and peers (health professionals, students, faculty)?
Click to expand...

wayne state has a lot more research funding than MSU... it's 40th or so in NIH funding, if you account for private funding it's in the 20s. Whereas MSU is in the low low tier when it comes to that.
 
HumbleMD said:
Check out these for some opinions:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281568&highlight=MSU+Wayne
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=266053&highlight=MSU+Wayne
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=190662&highlight=MSU+Wayne
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119727&highlight=MSU+Wayne
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=59951&highlight=MSU+Wayne
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=2740&highlight=MSU+Wayne

pardon the red text...

Personally I'd go with Wayne. The med center is larger and has more talent there. Also, you'd have to drag me kicking and screaming to live in E. Lansing.
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at MSU, there's more room to study at kalamazoo, upper michigan, e lansing, grandrapids, etc. If you have all these options, then you could simply choose the one suited to your lifestyle. If you find out that you don't like a particular place, then you could switch your rotations to one of the other places.
 
UMP said:
wayne state has a lot more research funding than MSU... it's 40th or so in NIH funding, if you account for private funding it's in the 20s. Whereas MSU is in the low low tier when it comes to that.
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practically all medical schools offer research opportunities for their students. However, unless you go to a top tier medical school, then it is unlikely that your research experience will be very meaningful. so choosing between wayne and msu based on research funding is not a good idea.
 
inside_edition said:
practically all medical schools offer research opportunities for their students. However, unless you go to a top tier medical school, then it is unlikely that your research experience will be very meaningful. so choosing between wayne and msu based on research funding is not a good idea.
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very true... most people will only be able to do token research anyways. For me it's mostly traditional vs. PBL curriculum... and if you don't know why PBL sucks, venture over to the allo forums
 
Smists said:
Can people give some reasons why they chose one school over the other?
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Everyone should choose MSU over Wayne.


(Because I want to go to Wayne, and I'm currently on the waitlist, so I could use some movement ahead of me!)
 
You're a funny dude stringer. But for you, I'll do it.
 
wow... this waitlisted Wayne Staters campaign for MSU is impressive
 
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inside_edition said:
practically all medical schools offer research opportunities for their students. However, unless you go to a top tier medical school, then it is unlikely that your research experience will be very meaningful. so choosing between wayne and msu based on research funding is not a good idea.
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That's true but I'd say there is probably a lot more biomedical (and higher quality at that) research at Wayne... Thoughts??

Plus if you do a few quality publications in solid journals, why would it matter if you didn't go to a top tier school or not? I don't think that part of your argument is valid. Research is research, and if it's published, then who cares were the PI is from, as long as it is quality...?? (maybe this is due to my ignorance of academia :oops: )
 
Rocket3004 said:
That's true but I'd say there is probably a lot more biomedical (and higher quality at that) research at Wayne... Thoughts??

Plus if you do a few quality publications in solid journals, why would it matter if you didn't go to a top tier school or not? I don't think that part of your argument is valid. Research is research, and if it's published, then who cares were the PI is from, as long as it is quality...?? (maybe this is due to my ignorance of academia :oops: )
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In undergrad, because its very limited to what we can actually do, this may matter. But for medical school research, one usually wants a certain kind of research (say, to set them up for a certain specialty), but also if you want to enter academia, where and in what journal very much matters. Still, though, I'd say that Wayne probably has more/better research going on than MSU.
 
StringerBell said:
Everyone should choose MSU over Wayne.


(Because I want to go to Wayne, and I'm currently on the waitlist, so I could use some movement ahead of me!)
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I agree!... for the OOS...Wayne State can get very expensive. also now that i think of it, i think MSU is higher ranked than than Wayne.
 
GujuMD said:
I agree!... for the OOS...Wayne State can get very expensive. also now that i think of it, i think MSU is higher ranked than than Wayne.
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You shouldn't talk about rank with 2 50+ rank schools. The ranking is like splitting hairs at that point (much like trying to rank JHU v HMS or something). MSU COM is ranked well for primary care, but that primary care ranking isn't the greatest measure in the first place (many who go into IM residencies are not going to practice primary care...)
 
There are many trade-offs involved in going to either MSU or Wayne State. If you decide to go to Wayne State you may feel more comfortable living in a suburb of Detroit and commuting rather than living in downtown Detroit (Detroit is one of the worst cities in the nation as far as crime statistics are concerned...second only to St. Louis...I sure wouldn't want to live there). This may be undesirable to you because it could take as much as 1hr of your time each day on the road (depending on where you live and whether you can avoid the traffic). Compare this to MSU where you should feel comfortable living right on campus if you are assigned to E. Lansing, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, (maybe not Flint...it ranks pretty high on the crime stats as well). On the other hand, MSU is geared more towards primary care physicians (as indicated by the high PRIMARY CARE ranking on USNEWS) who want to practice in the state of Michigan (and their match list is not too impressive...not that any school would hold you back if you are an awesome candidate, it just gives you a sense of what kind of company you would be in). Wayne State accepts a lot of undergrads from U of M and the grading system encourages competitiveness (and a cut-throat mentality) which may be excellent for those of you who are strong and up for the challenge (I happen to believe that FRIENDLY competition is a great thing and should be encouraged) but it is not for everyone. Wayne State has been around since 1868 vs. MSU CHM which has been around since 1964. A lot of Wayne State medical students get residencies at places like the University of Michigan (they don't publish their match lists, but I can speak on this issue based on the fact that my boss and several of his colleagues see residents from Wayne State Medical School all the time in the U of M hospital).

There are many more pros and cons which I encourage you to look into (you just need to keep looking and you will find the info you seek...mostly on the webpages). Bottom line is that you can make things happen no matter where you go for medical school. The ball is in your hands and whether or not you decide to take it and run with it is all up to you.
 
inside_edition said:
with a class size of 300, you'd end up fighting for a chance to assist in surgery.
Click to expand...
: not true in the least bit.

There are a ton more research opportunities at wayne than MSU. Wayne receives much more funding. I was actually able to publish (as 1rst and 2nd author) 2 abstracts, attend 2 conferences (poster presentations), and 1 presentation. It was very easy for me to receive funding for summer research.

here is why I chose WSU over MSU:

Here are the main strengths WSU has over MSU:
-Many more hospitals + larger underserved population -> more clinical experience 3rd&4th year (this is what you are going to school for, right?)
-Underserved/Poor population ->greater range/variety of diseases to learn from during clinical years.
-If interested in research, more research opportunities.
-All lectures streamed online in video and mp3 format
-You do not have to move to some unknown MI location after 2nd year.
-not a big push to go into primary care
-WSU grads match all over the country

Strengths MSU has over WSU:
-Better location to live in -> shorter commute
-big on primary care (if this is what you want to do)

Basically, the clinical training at wayne is superior to MSU (larger population, more variety of diseases, more hands on training, more variety of specialities that practive in detroit), and this is why many people choose wayne over MSU. I would choose MSU over wayne only if I was sure I wanted to do primary care in a community setting in michigan.

They do publish matchlists to their students and grads. So if interested, just contact these people.
 
fun8stuff said:
: not true in the least bit.

There are a ton more research opportunities at wayne than MSU. Wayne receives much more funding. I was actually able to publish (as 1rst and 2nd author) 2 abstracts, attend 2 conferences (poster presentations), and 1 presentation. It was very easy for me to receive funding for summer research.

here is why I chose WSU over MSU:

Here are the main strengths WSU has over MSU:
-Many more hospitals + larger underserved population -> more clinical experience 3rd&4th year (this is what you are going to school for, right?)
-Underserved/Poor population ->greater range/variety of diseases to learn from during clinical years.
-If interested in research, more research opportunities.
-All lectures streamed online in video and mp3 format
-You do not have to move to some unknown MI location after 2nd year.
-not a big push to go into primary care
-WSU grads match all over the country

Strengths MSU has over WSU:
-Better location to live in -> shorter commute
-big on primary care (if this is what you want to do)

Basically, the clinical training at wayne is superior to MSU (larger population, more variety of diseases, more hands on training, more variety of specialities that practive in detroit), and this is why many people choose wayne over MSU. I would choose MSU over wayne only if I was sure I wanted to do primary care in a community setting in michigan.

They do publish matchlists to their students and grads. So if interested, just contact these people.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. Could you please comment on Wayne State's grading methodology? I have heard from some current students that it creates an atmosphere of competition (it even makes some people cut-throat from what I've heard). Is it really hard to get "honors" in exams/classes versus just "pass"? Are there lots of instances where people feel that a grade of "honors" versus "pass" was just a toss-up because maybe they feel the exam was written unfairly? I'd really appreciate your input on this.
 
TroubleTheCat said:
Thanks for the input. Could you please comment on Wayne State's grading methodology? I have heard from some current students that it creates an atmosphere of competition (it even makes some people cut-throat from what I've heard). Is it really hard to get "honors" in exams/classes versus just "pass"? Are there lots of instances where people feel that a grade of "honors" versus "pass" was just a toss-up because maybe they feel the exam was written unfairly? I'd really appreciate your input on this.
Click to expand...

I was curious about the grading system as well.
 
TroubleTheCat said:
Thanks for the input. Could you please comment on Wayne State's grading methodology? I have heard from some current students that it creates an atmosphere of competition (it even makes some people cut-throat from what I've heard). Is it really hard to get "honors" in exams/classes versus just "pass"? Are there lots of instances where people feel that a grade of "honors" versus "pass" was just a toss-up because maybe they feel the exam was written unfairly? I'd really appreciate your input on this.
Click to expand...

Grading is honors/Pass/Fail. 75% is a guarenteed pass, but for most exams they lower this so cut off to around 70% (sometimes even to 65%)... but it is never higher than 75%. It probably everages around 70%.

To honor you must score 1 standard deviation higher than the average, which usually ends up to be abour 10% higher than average. Averages for exams are usually between 75-85%.

Unless you go to a school that doesn't give grades you are going to encounter some competitiveness. I think a majority of people who get into school did well in undergrad because they were competitive about their grades. At wayne there are a handful of students are competitive gunners, but I would say a majority of people are not competitive or they do not let themseles come off as competitive. It is a negative to be labeled as a gunner and those students who come off as a gunner are generally "shunned" . I think the addition of "honors" probably does make it more competitive than a school that is strictly pass/fail.. However, there are many people who are willing to help other people out. There have been numerous exams (almost every single one) where multiple people have emailed review sheets or study tools to the whole class.

Basically, most people end up making a group of friends in the beginning of school and you stick together and help each other out. Those that are come off as competitive gunners, you don't associate with. It will be as competitive as you make it on yourself. It is easy to avoid the asses who are competitive.
I believe this will be true regardless of what school you go to.

I do not think it is extremely hard to honor, but this is going to be variable person to person. It is not easy to honor, but if you put in the effort it is possible. I do not go to class (watch lectures online). I devote about 3-5 hrs strict studying (this includes watching lectures) except for the days before the exam. 4-5 days before the exam I study 8-10 hrs a day... maybe more. I read over the notes 3-4 times. Using this strategy I have honored most exams.

There have been a few bad exams over the last 2 years. However, this does not affect how hard it is to honor. Bad exams are bad for everyone. Often times, if there is a question that almost everyone gets wrong, the administration throws it out. A tough question is hard for everyone. Usually, the people who study the most, get the most questions right. The more you study, the more likely you will honor regardless how how bad the test was. A majority of the questions ask about major concepts... perhaps only 20% of the questions are asked about details. A majority of the exams have been fair. The number of unfair tests/questions is not any diff than the number of unfair tests/questions there were in undergrad.
 
inside_edition said:
with a class size of 300, you'd end up fighting for a chance to assist in surgery.
Click to expand...


Please don't make statements based on no information what so ever. Guess how many medical schools are located in Detroit?

ONE and that is Wayne State. Seeing that there are almost 1 million people in Detroit, I highly doubt students at Wayne will have any trouble finding opportunities to assist in the clinic.

The fallacy that Wayne State does not offer research opportunities if false. Wayne is 22nd in the nation for dollars recieved from the NIH!!!!! If you can't find a research opportunity with that much money coming into the school, you are insane.

From the students that I have spoke to who go to MSU medical school (I am an undergrad so I have spoken to many), they admit that they would have gone to Wayne if they could.

I am not on the waitlist at Wayne, I was accepted and have lived in the Detroit area with many ties to WSU so I may be a little biased.

I would say that if you plan on going into family practice, consider going to MSU as they push the crap out of this.
 
fun8stuff said:
Grading is honors/Pass/Fail. 75% is a guarenteed pass, but for most exams they lower this so cut off to around 70% (sometimes even to 65%)... but it is never higher than 75%. It probably everages around 70%.

To honor you must score 1 standard deviation higher than the average, which usually ends up to be abour 10% higher than average. Averages for exams are usually between 75-85%.

Unless you go to a school that doesn't give grades you are going to encounter some competitiveness. I think a majority of people who get into school did well in undergrad because they were competitive about their grades. At wayne there are a handful of students are competitive gunners, but I would say a majority of people are not competitive or they do not let themseles come off as competitive. It is a negative to be labeled as a gunner and those students who come off as a gunner are generally "shunned" . I think the addition of "honors" probably does make it more competitive than a school that is strictly pass/fail.. However, there are many people who are willing to help other people out. There have been numerous exams (almost every single one) where multiple people have emailed review sheets or study tools to the whole class.

Basically, most people end up making a group of friends in the beginning of school and you stick together and help each other out. Those that are come off as competitive gunners, you don't associate with. It will be as competitive as you make it on yourself. It is easy to avoid the asses who are competitive.
I believe this will be true regardless of what school you go to.

I do not think it is extremely hard to honor, but this is going to be variable person to person. It is not easy to honor, but if you put in the effort it is possible. I do not go to class (watch lectures online). I devote about 3-5 hrs strict studying (this includes watching lectures) except for the days before the exam. 4-5 days before the exam I study 8-10 hrs a day... maybe more. I read over the notes 3-4 times. Using this strategy I have honored most exams.

There have been a few bad exams over the last 2 years. However, this does not affect how hard it is to honor. Bad exams are bad for everyone. Often times, if there is a question that almost everyone gets wrong, the administration throws it out. A tough question is hard for everyone. Usually, the people who study the most, get the most questions right. The more you study, the more likely you will honor regardless how how bad the test was. A majority of the questions ask about major concepts... perhaps only 20% of the questions are asked about details. A majority of the exams have been fair. The number of unfair tests/questions is not any diff than the number of unfair tests/questions there were in undergrad.
Click to expand...

Cool! Thanks again!
 
Thanks for all your comments and the many links!

I just got back from interviewing at CHM and the experience far exceeded my expectations. What I really like is CHM's curriculum. PBL aside, the psychosocial approach to medicine (eg. humanties, pairing students with chronically ill patients during M1 & M2) is what really appeals to me.

I just wish the program had better clinical sites (comparable to Wayne).
 
Smists said:
Thanks for all your comments and the many links!

I just got back from interviewing at CHM and the experience far exceeded my expectations. What I really like is CHM's curriculum. PBL aside, the psychosocial approach to medicine (eg. humanties, pairing students with chronically ill patients during M1 & M2) is what really appeals to me.

I just wish the program had better clinical sites (comparable to Wayne).
Click to expand...

You will most liekly get the humanities and pairing students with chronically ill patients no matter where you go. But I agree, MSUSOM did a great job at presenting that aspect of education during the interview day.
 
Does anyone have any stats for:

- what percentage of class passes step I / step II the first time?
- what percentage of class matches to first residency choice?
- what percentage of class has to redo clerkships?
 
wayne state does publish their match list in scripts a school publication every year. also i just went into the admission office and asked for one they gave me the graduation booklet that had every student graduating and their match. i currently work training physicians and i ask about 90% of them which school i should attend. just about all of them say wayne. granted i work in the dmc but even docs from schools other than wayne say this. some will even go as far as to say wayne over mich since the clinical skills you gain with wayne are hard to match. I would still go umich over wayne but you get the point. i think wayne gets alot more respect in the midwest medical community then msu too. As a few docs have said if you are looking at a rare case a michigan student will say i have never seen it but i read about it and can tell you all about it, wayne student say o yea i have seen that a bunch of times, and a msu student says "what's that"
 
Smists said:
Does anyone have any stats for:

- what percentage of class passes step I / step II the first time? 92-95%
- what percentage of class matches to first residency choice? national avg
- what percentage of class has to redo clerkships? very small
Click to expand...
i do not know anyone who has had to redo clerkships... if anyone has to redo them, it is most likely their own fault or a family emergency... (not showing up, lazy, accident, family emergency, etc). when they gave us their step 1 presentation, wayne was at the national average for the percent of students that passed step1 the first time. i can't remember if this was 92 or 95%... this is actually quite impressive, given wayne tends to take a lot of disadvantage students (based on their background and GPA and MCAT). basically, once you start school you will realize these numbers don't really matter... what matters is how hard YOU work... not how well everyone else does. :D i am not sure on the exact number for what percent gets first residency choice, but i do remember being told that it was at the national average and that the majority of students get one of their top 3 choices.
 
E from the D said:
wayne state does publish their match list in scripts a school publication every year. also i just went into the admission office and asked for one they gave me the graduation booklet that had every student graduating and their match. i currently work training physicians and i ask about 90% of them which school i should attend. just about all of them say wayne. granted i work in the dmc but even docs from schools other than wayne say this. some will even go as far as to say wayne over mich since the clinical skills you gain with wayne are hard to match. I would still go umich over wayne but you get the point. i think wayne gets alot more respect in the midwest medical community then msu too. As a few docs have said if you are looking at a rare case a michigan student will say i have never seen it but i read about it and can tell you all about it, wayne student say o yea i have seen that a bunch of times, and a msu student says "what's that"
Click to expand...

Did anyone else get a headache trying to read/parse this message?
 
yea sorry about that one. i didn't take the time to puncuate capatilize or reread it. just kinda wrote stream of conscious.
 
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