We aren't competing...BS

[mattorama]

Anyone else find this at your school?

I don't know how many profs have told us that we aren't competing against each other any more and we need to stop caring about it...we are past the point where it matters how everyone else does.

Yet our whole grading system is based on competition. They have a set percentage of people who will get honors, high pass, and pass (fail only if you really bomb). If the average in the class (we only have about 30 people in class with the way the school is structured...so weird things can happen) is a 90%....those with a 90 would merely "pass". The historic average in gross is an 84%, so this isn't too far off. My grade isn't completely up to me.

It is just driving me crazy how the system is set up for competiton, yet they insist that we aren't competing. I want to do my best regardless, but still...grrrr

Well, I'd better get back to micro....sorry for my brief rant

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[ericdamiansean]

Not only do you compete amongst yourselves, you are also competing among the other medical schools..just that they don't tell you that

 

[mpp]

Our professors are not allowed to structure their grading in that way. All course chairs must have a set of standards from the beginning of the course as to what constitutes honors, etc. This would include what grade average on tests and so forth. In this manner ever person in the class could fail or every person could get honors, but at least students know in advance what the scores need to be to land such a grade. On the other hand, most classes are going pass/fail anyways...

Talk to your administration and see if they might be interested in such a policy. If enough students are concerned about a 'competitive atmosphere' in the school, and your administration cares about student satisfaction, they should at least take it into consideration.

 

[dtreese]

Some of our classes are that way, some aren't. I'm not gonna waste my time trying to compare myslef with classmates, though. I'm just trying to become the best MD I can be. It's more likely that I'll push myself harder doing things that way than I would in a competition.

 

[carrigallen]

That's interesting mpp, I thought he/she was talking about your school at first. Then I realized that several other schools have small class sizes (NM, NV, etc).

 

[velo]

well our first year is Pass/Fail...so no we aren't competing, makes for a nice cooperative environment.

 

[nutmegs]

I think the thing about pass/fail grading, even with honors/high pass, is it takes the stress off memorizing every last detail of which gene is on which chromosome to get the 91% I need to get the A. I know that if there's some really ball busting question, the rest of my class is probably going to miss it too... and if you really want to sit there and study all that ****, then you do deserve the honors. I don't mind it at all, and I don't feel my class is really that competitive despite the p/hp/h. There will ALWAYS be gunners, and for the normal 95% of the class, p/f can be a nice way to go.

 

[anamarylee]

Most of my courses this year have the following grading system:

>1 Standard Deviation from the mean = A
Mean +/- 1 SD = B
Between 1 and 2 SD below the mean = C
2 SD below the mean = F

It's good for courses like Pharm, since everyone bombs in it, most everyone passes. But for other courses it's a pain. My knowledge in my school is graded as a B where is others schools it's an A. It's not all bad though, we do very well on the shelfs as a class, but it's still a pain. I'm positive we would drop if they switched to a P/F system, but it would make learning medicine a heck of a lot less stressing.

We asked one of the course coordinatiors why they didn't use a standard grading curve (90, 80, 70 for cuttoffs) and she said that in order to use that system they (the professors) would have to every single possible objective in the syllabus, which she admited was impossible.

 

[Supadupafly]

I really don't sense any heavy competition here. 'Seems like everyone is helping each other out.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

Sup Matt,

Long time no talk, how's the BL campus? Here at WL, our class isn't competitive at all. It's probably cuz we only have 16 people here, so everyone seems pretty close knit.

Good luck to you though =)

 

[Mongo]

I think the thing about pass/fail grading, even with honors/high pass, is it takes the stress off memorizing every last detail of which gene is on which chromosome to get the 91% I need to get the A. I know that if there's some really ball busting question, the rest of my class is probably going to miss it too... and if you really want to sit there and study all that ****, then you do deserve the honors. I don't mind it at all, and I don't feel my class is really that competitive despite the p/hp/h. There will ALWAYS be gunners, and for the normal 95% of the class, p/f can be a nice way to go.

I don't get it. If you are Pass/Fail, but have Honors/Near Honors, that is grades.

 

[nutmegs]

yeah but you don't know how the %s work out until after the class is over... so it's not like you're stressing to get the 90 instead of the 89...

 

[Howard Roark]

Anyone else find this at your school?

I don't know how many profs have told us that we aren't competing against each other any more and we need to stop caring about it...we are past the point where it matters how everyone else does.

Yet our whole grading system is based on competition. They have a set percentage of people who will get honors, high pass, and pass (fail only if you really bomb). If the average in the class (we only have about 30 people in class with the way the school is structured...so weird things can happen) is a 90%....those with a 90 would merely "pass". The historic average in gross is an 84%, so this isn't too far off. My grade isn't completely up to me.

It is just driving me crazy how the system is set up for competiton, yet they insist that we aren't competing. I want to do my best regardless, but still...grrrr

Well, I'd better get back to micro....sorry for my brief rant

my school is pass/fail so very little competition where I'm at


.

 

[ericdamiansean]

my school is pass/fail so very little competition where I'm at


.

I still remember the time a few months back when my school changed the grading system from stating your actual marks on the result slip ie. pass is 65 above to the A for 80-100, A- etc, quite afew people were unhappy because they felt that a 90 and an 80 student should not be under the same group..sigh..

 

[roja]

Definately depends on the school you are at and the atmosphere that is fostered by the professors, as well as the students that are chosen by the admissions comittee.

My school definately professed a 'no competition' atmosphere. And indeed they proved true. Except there were a number of people to see who could compete:

who could drink the most
who missed the most class
who cracked the best jokes

Our top 'gunner' tutored for free and was one of the NICEST guys. there are definately schools where the compitition is cut throat. However, where I went, these people were mocked (well, not really but they were a minority). Study sheets were shared freely, aide was offered often.

Good luck. I hope it smoothes out for you!

 

[mattorama]

Sup Matt,

Long time no talk, how's the BL campus? Here at WL, our class isn't competitive at all. It's probably cuz we only have 16 people here, so everyone seems pretty close knit.

Good luck to you though =)

Hey!

So far people don't seem bad about it. That could always change after the first test today. I am more irked by the way the system is completly set up for competition while they claim we shouldn't have to compete. I want to be in charge of my grade...not my classmates. I am actually suprised by how well I am getting along with most of the people in the class (I expected many more super high strung, go get 'em types...nearly everyone is really laid back and nice). A bunch of us were talking about it yesterday and I am not the only one who feels like the grading system is less then ideal. I just hope that the first test or two doesn't ruin the nice atmosphere.

Good to hear everyone is getting along up north too. I really wish I could snatch Walker for gross.


oh...the rumors are TRUE....there are sooooo many hot women in BL. I don't know why I spent five years at the sausage fest that is WL.

 

[ddmo]

well our first year is Pass/Fail...so no we aren't competing, makes for a nice cooperative environment.

For some reason everyone thinks that just because their recored grades are pass/fail, that the school doesn't know exactly how each person in the class ranks in terms of performance on tests over the year. The fact is that your Dean letter for residency will somehow portray your academic performance. Some schools state your exact rank, others give what tier of the class you are in. How is the Dean supposed to suggest your performance when probably 95% of students end up passing a course in the end? The point is is that you are ranked, whether or not you see those rankings doesn't mean they aren't being tallied.

 

[velo]

For some reason everyone thinks that just because their recored grades are pass/fail, that the school doesn't know exactly how each person in the class ranks in terms of performance on tests over the year. The fact is that your Dean letter for residency will somehow portray your academic performance. Some schools state your exact rank, others give what tier of the class you are in. How is the Dean supposed to suggest your performance when probably 95% of students end up passing a course in the end? The point is is that you are ranked, whether or not you see those rankings doesn't mean they aren't being tallied.

Oh no, they know exactly where we rank...and maybe M1 ranks (the only P/F year) are taken into account in the Dean's letter...but I doubt it.

The point is that the atmosphere created, or at least encouraged, by the P/F system is wonderful. Plus people still work just as hard, or even a little harder...they just don't work against each other, they work with each other. I've been told by one of the deans that raw test scores have actually improved slightly since implimenting the P/F system, might be because it encourages students to help each other prepare for exams...

 

[Xandie]

Our school refuses to rank us, even though we have a five point grading system. It's really nice, because you can still be motivated to do well, since it's not just a P/F system, but you know exactly how well you're doing (cutoffs are determined before class, not after the grades come in), and your grades are never diminished by comparison to the gunners.

 

[tugbug]

We are graded ABCU, but the cutoffs are not based on any curve. Competition seems low from where I am sitting. I like knowing exactly where I stand grade wise from the beginning instead of waiting to see where I fall on the curve. I could see competition under that situation.

 

[babyruth]

Just a quick question, do you think that the P/F system encourages people to only do what they can to just get by instead of trying to excell? (curious as to your opinion)

 

[thackl]

Only top 20 get ranked here. I guess the rest of us need to score highly on the step1 to get any recognition.

 

[lotanna]

we arent graded based on a curve
we are only Pass and Fail, no High pass or nothing
we have no ranks!

so there's no real competition

 

[mattorama]

Back to rant about grading again...

I just got an email about tentative grade cutoffs for a class. Stupid pre-set distribution. After a couple of tests <90% is pass.... 90-95 high pass...over 95% honors.... Does this seem dumb to anyone else? Why can't every one earn an honors if they do well? At least make the tests harder to make the std. dev. bigger if you are going to go by a pre-set distribution. Right now I have like an 89.5% so I am looking at a Pass for that. If the average goes up again for the next exam you could theoretically have a 90% in the class and get a Pass. It pisses me off that a handful of questions can be the difference between a pass and honors. Creates a great enviroment when you know that a question or two can really change your grade. Pre-set distributions don't work when there are less then 30 people in the class!!!

 

[SarahGM]

Just a quick question, do you think that the P/F system encourages people to only do what they can to just get by instead of trying to excell? (curious as to your opinion)

Not here. I mean, we've all joked about it, but some professor made the rather amusing (and astute) point that none of us would be medical students if we weren't somewhat driven... and anal.

 

[shaq786]

I'm not in med school but just from observing the circumstances...if you want go ahead and compete, however, be thoughtful in the process. Example: Dont be a gunner and take data down for your group only to find out there was a mistake when you calculated the data in class and then not tell your classmates. I've seen people like that, and I make a goal for myself not to be like that.

 

[DW3843]

Thank God I just have the good old fashioned letter grade system.

90s are As 80s are Bs and 70s are Cs.

simple as that

 

[Paws]

I definitely feel like we're back in premed days, for the most part. People are totally gunning all around me, and it's a real drag.

I geuss I fell for the 'everyone will be pulling together' cr#p, and really wished it would be different. I am just working hard to do the best for me, but it stinks when lab partners, etc. are cutthroat and devious. I am finding that a real hard thing to adjust to.

 

[lotanna]

For some reason everyone thinks that just because their recored grades are pass/fail, that the school doesn't know exactly how each person in the class ranks in terms of performance on tests over the year. The fact is that your Dean letter for residency will somehow portray your academic performance. Some schools state your exact rank, others give what tier of the class you are in. How is the Dean supposed to suggest your performance when probably 95% of students end up passing a course in the end? The point is is that you are ranked, whether or not you see those rankings doesn't mean they aren't being tallied.

Nope, worked at my med schl b4 even going there and so I know both sides truth is they dont care, as long as u get a 75% thats a P, so person who gets a 90 and person who gets a 75, all get the same fat P! With excepption of anatomy where we need a 78. our schl is straight P/F, they try to encourage us to master the subjects which is above 85%, so that we dont risk not doin well on the boards. But other than that, most of our deans letter is about how well we performed during clinicals, and that we "exceled" in our pre-clinical yrs.
I love my schl for that, very very cooperative environment, when u have folks emailing their 20pg notes every week for exams, thats wonderful. Even though I wish they'd drop anatomy from a 78 to a 70 for passing

 

[DrYo12]

For some reason everyone thinks that just because their recored grades are pass/fail, that the school doesn't know exactly how each person in the class ranks in terms of performance on tests over the year. The fact is that your Dean letter for residency will somehow portray your academic performance. Some schools state your exact rank, others give what tier of the class you are in. How is the Dean supposed to suggest your performance when probably 95% of students end up passing a course in the end? The point is is that you are ranked, whether or not you see those rankings doesn't mean they aren't being tallied.

I'm glad someone mentioned this, because its true. How do you think people end up getting dismissed/honored at graduation? The admin people know where you rank and how you scored on the exams even if you don't. This is not to say that you should start the infighting for grades, but don't think that P/F systems are carte blanche to do the minimum to pass...

For what its worth...

 

[Frijolero]

Now I know I blow at math, but whoever decides our grades is evidently worse. 90 is the cutoff for honors. Except that 89.45 is honors. Who taught these people how to round? Come on now, you either round to ones or tenths. To get 90 from 89.45 you have to do both and round twice. What the crap?......but I'm not complaining.

-Frijolero

 

[pillowhead]

Thank God I just have the good old fashioned letter grade system.

90s are As 80s are Bs and 70s are Cs.

simple as that

Me,too. People may criticize it as old-fashioned, but at least you know where you stand. And there's really no competition when 100% of the class can make an A. The way I figure, I've been judged with grades like this for the first 16 years or so of my education, and it's gotten me far, so why not just keep going with the same?

 

[erin682]

People keep saying that all schools use ranking for Dean's letter but thats just not true. My school doesn't use ranking at all. We have GPA's but they are pretty meaningless because of the integrated curriculum that we have so we basicallly only have one class per semester. We don't have people gunning at all. In fact we have a class list serve where people constantly send out study tools and summaries that they have done. If anyone at my school is caught trying to hurt other people's learning that will actually go in their dean't letter as more important than their performance in classes.

 

[banana k]

University of Sydney: no assessment for MS1-2, first barrier assessment then. until then you're on your own--you have heaps of self quizzes to make sure you're on track, and you're always in PBL tutorials so your TA can make sure you're on the ball... but very good i think! no one seems to be under any more pressure than they're putting on themselves.

and really... who cares about ranks and competition at this point? unless we start wanking around at this point and fail out, we're all going to be doctors, which is what we wanted--and why we went through all that premed competitive crap anyway. who really cares what the best of the best of the best residency is anyway? IMHO, at this point, competition is more of a bad habit left over from premed and high school than anything else.