Welcome, Emergency Medicine

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
It actually becomes a big deal as of this upcoming academic year. Per my fellowship PD, now only those from the fields above can be AGCME boarded in pain. Those from other fields who complete an accredited fellowship are now out of luck.

Then again...The only training you really need to be a comprehensive pain specialist including implants and cervical procedures is CRNA school and a weekend course.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
Im confused again. Past few years, any specialty could enter pain fellowship and take pain boards. Now, has that changed? Are you saying pathologists and nuc med docs can no longer enter pain fellowships??????
 
Im confused again. Past few years, any specialty could enter pain fellowship and take pain boards. Now, has that changed? Are you saying pathologists and nuc med docs can no longer enter pain fellowships??????

Per my PD.... a firm yes in terms of becoming board certified in pain. They can still enter the fellowship - just can't sit for the boards. I have not seen the policy with my own eyes... but I have no reason to doubt it.
 
Last edited:
Per my PD.... a firm yes in terms of becoming board certified in pain. They can still enter the fellowship - just can't sit for the boards. He has an incoming fellow who is not from one of these specialties and it truly looks like the guy won't be able to be boarded. I have not seen the policy with my own eyes... but I have no reason to doubt it.
There's some other specialties applying to co-sponsor Pain so, stay tuned. You've got to prove you've got people ACGME trained, to apply to get co-sponsorship now. It's kind of backwards, but that's what we did in EM. A few of us did the fellowships, then pushed for co-sponsorship. Though, I must say it was nice being able to sit for the boards first. It's great to finally be recognized as "official."
 
Last edited:
I really don't understand the point of an ER doctor doing a pain fellowship. 2 reasons:
1. If someone comes into the ER with acute radiculopathy, it doesn't take a pain fellowship to give the patient a Medrol dose pack (or something similar) for non-surgical cases. Would a pain fellowship-trained ER doctor plan on doing an epidural on this patient? It's not only inappropriate (give the patient some time, meds, and physical therapy first. Then have them follow up as an outpatient), but doesn't make sense- is the patient going to return to that ER doctor for follow up and maybe an epidural?? Where?? The ER?? Or does the ER doctor now have an outpatient office with access to flouroscopy?
2. ER doctors probably shouldn't (and I can't imagine would want to) deal with chronic pain medications. Is a patient going to return to the same ER doctor for monthly visits? And where? The ER or an outpatient office?

I guess that the only way I can see it making sense for an ER doctor to do a pain fellowship is if they want out of the ER, and think that they might be able to join a pain practice or inpatient service.
 
I guess that the only way I can see it making sense for an ER doctor to do a pain fellowship is if they want out of the ER, and think that they might be able to join a pain practice or inpatient service.

duh
 
"Duh?" Good answer.
And who is going to hire a pain-fellowship trained ER doctor? What kind of job or practice do you see this doctor fitting into?
 
no ER doc would do a pain fellowship if they plan on primarily staying in the ER. multi-disciplinary groups, ortho groups, solo private practice. a lot of available avenues. ER docs see a lot of ortho -- im sure they'd find a job. they'd be lacking in spin eexpertise, but then again, that is what fellowship is for.
 
"Duh?" Good answer.
And who is going to hire a pain-fellowship trained ER doctor? What kind of job or practice do you see this doctor fitting into?

The same people that hire fellowship trained pain doctors from other primary specialties. I know at least one on the faculty a Harvard (Pain Dept), at least 2 others who had no problem finding hospital employed jobs, and I had no problem finding a very good private-practice 100%-Pain job myself. As others have stated, the idea is to do Pain full time if you're going to spend the year doing a fellowship, much like most cardiologists do cards full time and don't work internal medicine shifts after their fellowships. In my opinion, if you're going to call yourself a "specialist" in something it's best to do it full time, and not be a part-timer, or just "dabble" in it.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I really don't understand the point of a PM&R/anesthesia/neurology doctor doing a pain fellowship. 2 reasons:
1. If someone comes into the hospital with acute radiculopathy, it doesn't take a pain fellowship to give the patient a Medrol dose pack (or something similar) for non-surgical cases. Would a pain fellowship-trained PM&R/anesthesia/neurology doctor plan on doing an epidural on this patient? It's not only inappropriate (give the patient some time, meds, and physical therapy first. Then have them follow up as an outpatient), but doesn't make sense- is the patient going to return to that inpatient unit/OR for follow up and maybe an epidural?? Where?? The neurology floor/OB suite/rehab floor?? Or does the ER doctor now have an outpatient office with access to flouroscopy?
2. PM&R/anesthesiology doctors probably shouldn't (and I can't imagine would want to) deal with chronic pain medications. Is a patient going to return to the same ER doctor for monthly visits? And where? The ER or an outpatient office? (what experience during training does an inpatient PM&R or OR based anesthesiology resident get with prescriptions?)

I guess that the only way I can see it making sense for an ER doctor to do a pain fellowship is if they want out of the ER, and think that they might be able to join a pain practice or inpatient service.

you are confusing standard practice location with practice pattern. just as the anesthesiologist is not going to do evals, followups, and, for the most part, injections, in room 4 of a hospital OR, or a PM&R is not going to do evals, follow ups, and injections in an inpatient rehab floor, ER doctors will see these patients in an office based setting.
 
"In my opinion, if you're going to call yourself a "specialist" in something it's best to do it full time, and not be a part-timer, or just "dabble" in it."

100% agree with this.
 
"you are confusing standard practice location with practice pattern."

I am not confusing anything. ER to pain seems to be a much more radical change than anesthesia or PM&R to pain, in which it's possible to really do 2 specialties at a time. My guess that ER doctors who do a pain fellowship will have a much harder time staying in both specialties.
 
no ER doc would do a pain fellowship if they plan on primarily staying in the ER. multi-disciplinary groups, ortho groups, solo private practice. a lot of available avenues. ER docs see a lot of ortho -- im sure they'd find a job. they'd be lacking in spin eexpertise, but then again, that is what fellowship is for.

You do tons of "spine" in EM, it's just from a different vantage point. In my day, I ordered and read (prior to 24 hr rads coverage) thousands of spine films (mostly trauma related), looked at all my trauma CT C, T, and L spine images, had diagnosed epidural abscesses, acute cauda equina, done tons of LPs, seen tons of addiction, treated opiate overdoses (best way to learn "do no harm" and the dangers of opiates, and "harm reduction") not to mention having seen patients present with every type of acute and chronic pain imaginable, in some way shape or form.

70% of patients in the ED have a primary complaint of some type of pain, with 40% having underlying chronic pain conditions. I feel that my years in EM prepared about as well as could be for my Pain fellowship. I have no regrets about that whatsoever, and couldn't imaging better pre-fellowship training.

But really, I know where this is going....It's the Pain specialty in-fighting, "only my specialty is the 'best' primary specialty for Pain" stuff, which is why I'm not going to get too deep in the weeds with that. 3 years ago I might have but now I wouldn't waste too much time on that.

Why? I don't have to anymore. I'm ACGME-Pain trained, ACGME-Pain Boarded from a primary specialty that is an official Pain co-sponsor, and have a successful, thriving Pain practice. It's all good.

EDIT: Oh, and as to what's really important, my Yelp and Healthgrades scores are 4.5/5 stars. :)
Just kidding.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
"you are confusing standard practice location with practice pattern."

I am not confusing anything. ER to pain seems to be a much more radical change than anesthesia or PM&R to pain, in which it's possible to really do 2 specialties at a time. My guess that ER doctors who do a pain fellowship will have a much harder time staying in both specialties.

This is true. Considering I have a great private practice Pain job, Mon-Fri, to pick up some 7pm-7am night shift in a busy ER somewhere on a Friday night, and be ready for a 2 day old infant code to come in at 4am with some rare presentation of congenital heart disease single coverage with no PICU/NICU or anesthesia in house, then bounce to the next room for an MI with ST elevation, then bounce to the next room for your pain patient who was discharged from your practice this week out of meds, then to the next room for a bradycardic 79 year old with a HR of 28 and float a transvenous pacemaker while I wait for Cards to roll out of bed....

I could....but then again I'm happy doing something much different for the time being. I have a pretty good thing going doing Pain full time.
 
Last edited:
"you are confusing standard practice location with practice pattern."

I am not confusing anything. ER to pain seems to be a much more radical change than anesthesia or PM&R to pain, in which it's possible to really do 2 specialties at a time. My guess that ER doctors who do a pain fellowship will have a much harder time staying in both specialties.
actually, no.

Anesthesia is clearly an OR based practice, very quick patient hx, then plan, anesthetic, time with single patient unless supervising CRNAs. Not an office based practice at all.

PMR - depends on whether you are discussing outpatient vs Inpatient care. Inpatient setting is very unlike a pain practice.

How do you see most patients (assuming you are not a needle jockey)? Typically , patient gets roomed, doc goes in, asks how patient is doing or how pain is. Out of all the specialties , this interaction is actually most common with ED.

I would also hazard that 70% of gas trained pain and 85% of PMR trained pain do not do joint specialties. But if I were still doing ER, I'd just get a part time job in an urgent care clinic open 10-8...

I think the crux of the problem
Is that you are too narrow minded or opinionated to think outside of your specialty.
 
BTFU, an epidural steroid injection is "inappropriate" for a patient with acute radiculopathy? Please explain your reasoning.

It would actually make perfect sense for an ER doc to do an epidural provided the patient is not going to surgery, and they've ruled out contraindications and have the appropriate imaging. They could even do a caudal under ultrasound on a stretcher. What would be the harm?

I agree with EMD that your argument here is based in concerns over turf, and while I can sympathize with that, I'm not going to pretend ED docs are any less prepared for a pain fellowship than anesthesiologists (which is really quite a stretch to begin with- and I am one!).

I agree with EMD on the point that an ED doc doing a pain fellowship would most likely go into 100% pain practice. A split could be accomplished as well, if the doc worked for a hospital that allowed him some days in the ER, and other days in the pain clinic. How is that any different from combined anesthesia-pain groups?

I think we need to look at the bright side here, this move increases the legitimacy of our field. Another well-established specialty is saying this training is important and worth the investment.

I really don't understand the point of an ER doctor doing a pain fellowship. 2 reasons:
1. If someone comes into the ER with acute radiculopathy, it doesn't take a pain fellowship to give the patient a Medrol dose pack (or something similar) for non-surgical cases. Would a pain fellowship-trained ER doctor plan on doing an epidural on this patient? It's not only inappropriate (give the patient some time, meds, and physical therapy first. Then have them follow up as an outpatient), but doesn't make sense- is the patient going to return to that ER doctor for follow up and maybe an epidural?? Where?? The ER?? Or does the ER doctor now have an outpatient office with access to flouroscopy?
2. ER doctors probably shouldn't (and I can't imagine would want to) deal with chronic pain medications. Is a patient going to return to the same ER doctor for monthly visits? And where? The ER or an outpatient office?

I guess that the only way I can see it making sense for an ER doctor to do a pain fellowship is if they want out of the ER, and think that they might be able to join a pain practice or inpatient service.
 
I think we need to look at the bright side here, this move increases the legitimacy of our field. Another well-established specialty is saying this training is important and worth the investment.

Agree. Also, it doesn't hurt to have a few more dogs in the fight, when CMS or some other entity decides to slam down on the specialty, cut reimbursement, say we're unneeded, etc. Having another society/board/college to join the fight and bolster legitimacy can only help. Also, there's been a fair amount of Pain research come from EM that has value (one guy, Knox Todd comes to mind, out of MD Anderson). The numbers of applicants coming from EM will likely be very small, so I think people can put the "turf war" and "competition" fears to rest. It's a good thing.
 
its not like new fellowship programs are opening up - its just that the pool of applicants for the same number of spots is larger.
 
An epidural certainly can be indicated in an acute radic- however it isn't always. And if you think it is, who is going to do the insurance authorization in the ER? Who's the patient going to follow up with? Do you think it's OK to do one in the ER without an MRI or CT? And will you order that and keep the patient in the ER until it's done?

BTFU, an epidural steroid injection is "inappropriate" for a patient with acute radiculopathy? Please explain your reasoning.
 
An epidural certainly can be indicated in an acute radic- however it isn't always. And if you think it is, who is going to do the insurance authorization in the ER? Who's the patient going to follow up with? Do you think it's OK to do one in the ER without an MRI or CT? And will you order that and keep the patient in the ER until it's done?

Let's not hijack this into a clinical thread about epidurals. I think it's okay to do a lumbar epidural in most cases of classic radiculitis/radiculopathy without any imaging at all provided they have no red flags, and an otherwise appropriate exam. Sure, you could run into a real zebra where an epidural could reasonably be expected to do harm, but the odds of that are very, very low, and you have a patient that wants to feel better now, not next week.
 
An epidural certainly can be indicated in an acute radic- however it isn't always. And if you think it is, who is going to do the insurance authorization in the ER? Who's the patient going to follow up with? Do you think it's OK to do one in the ER without an MRI or CT? And will you order that and keep the patient in the ER until it's done?
Omg.

Who said any of this has to be done in ER?


Who says an ER doc has to see patients only in ER?
 
PowerMD, you are the one who said it might be OK to do an epidural with "appropriate imaging". I agree that the odds may be "very, very low" of running into a zebra while doing an epidural- and that in an ideal world, we would be able to do them quickly on symptomatic patients without having to worry about insurance issues or CYA imaging- but would I ever do one without an MRI or CT? No way. Why not? Because I believe that I would be crucified if something went wrong, or there was a zebra. However, I think that some doctors do injections without always getting imaging- but I wouldn't. It's a judgement issue I guess.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
EDs are so busy, chaotic and there's so much time pressure to move patients in at out of beds at the first chance, I could never see doing an elective ESI during an ED shift. "Sir, in addition to your more urgent issues, I it looks like you might benefit from an outpatient MRI and possibly and injection for your back and leg pain. In addition to my duties here, I also have an office practice. Here's an order for an MRI and my card. Come see me in the office next week," is about as far as I'd go with that.
 
I'm starting my EM residency this June and I'm interested in pursuing a pain fellowship. Unfortunately, given the extremely competitive nature of pain fellowships, I think I may be at a disadvantage as I will be training at a medium-sized community program with limited to no research opportunities.

What can I do to make myself a very competitive pain fellowship applicant?
 
I'm starting my EM residency this June and I'm interested in pursuing a pain fellowship. Unfortunately, given the extremely competitive nature of pain fellowships, I think I may be at a disadvantage as I will be training at a medium-sized community program with limited to no research opportunities.

What can I do to make myself a very competitive pain fellowship applicant?

Change to Anes or PMR.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hey ducttape- no one said that. Try to follow the conversation. Read PowerMD's response above.
i have followed the conversation, and you have persisted in not believing that ER can have a role in pain management.

to specifically address your concerns about being "in the ER",

who is going to do the insurance authorization in the ER? Who's the patient going to follow up with? Do you think it's OK to do one in the ER without an MRI or CT? And will you order that and keep the patient in the ER until it's done?
1. the ER unit secretary will put in the MRI request.
2. the ER doc, if he elects to not see the patient as an outpatient and give him high dose opioids to go home with, will admit him to the ER OBS unit.
3. The OBS unit secretary will submit the auth for the MRI
4. The next day, the ER doc will do the epidural under fluoro in the trauma bay, after reviewing the MRI
5. The patient will be discharged on antiinflammatory medications only, sans opioids, to follow up with the ER doc in his office M/W/F 7-4.
 
1. the ER unit secretary will put in the MRI request.
2. the ER doc, if he elects to not see the patient as an outpatient and give him high dose opioids to go home with, will admit him to the ER OBS unit.
3. The OBS unit secretary will submit the auth for the MRI
4. The next day, the ER doc will do the epidural under fluoro in the trauma bay, after reviewing the MRI
5. The patient will be discharged on antiinflammatory medications only, sans opioids, to follow up with the ER doc in his office M/W/F 7-4.

Interesting....In the right setting, such as hospital-based and employed practice, this kind of scenario might be possible.
 
Last edited:
I don't think so. It's nowhere near as simple as that. If the patient is on Coumadin for example? Do you think that MRI can always be done day of, or next day? You think it's justified to admit the patient for observation for an MRI that might not happen for 3 days and be read for 2 days after that? Do you believe that insurance will actually pay for that?
MRI may have to be authorized by insurance, which may require conservative treatment first in the absence of red flags, including anti-inflammatories and physical therapy. Keep the patient in the ER for 6 weeks of conservative care? And it goes against the conservative practice model- many, if not most, of the patients will improve significantly with time, anti-inflammatories, and physical therapy. Those who don't, or are so miserable that you think that doing an epidural ASAP would really be beneficial, may be candidates for injections- but this will also require insurance auth, denials, appeals etc. and those who improve will not have undergone MRI and injections when they would have improved given time and treatment in the first place.
I really don't think that it would be possible to run this kind of practice while managing an active ER. It's just not realistic. It's running an outpatient protocol at the same time as an ER. And will the ER doctor be in his office "M/W/F 7-4" the same week as working an ER schedule? Do you think that's possible? And do you think you will earn enough on the follow up visit in the office to pay the rent and staff the office?
I think it's so unlikely that someone could run both of these practices. All patients cannot be d/c'ed only on anti-inflammatories- you are assuming that these are all virgin pain patients. Those are nice, but it can be much more complicated than that. Never mind taking the liability on your shoulders of performing the procedure based on your own radiologic interpretation (which may be fine) instead of letting a radiologist, who is specifically trained in this and does it all day, do a final read, which may take a few days.
Why would you not just focus on one or the other to minimize screw ups? Either practicing ER medicine or pain is enough of a full-time job. I just don't think it's possible to do both in the manner described above.
Interesting....In the right setting, such as hospital-based and employed practice, this kind of scenario might be possible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm starting my EM residency this June and I'm interested in pursuing a pain fellowship. Unfortunately, given the extremely competitive nature of pain fellowships, I think I may be at a disadvantage as I will be training at a medium-sized community program with limited to no research opportunities.

What can I do to make myself a very competitive pain fellowship applicant?

First, ignore the naysayers. They'll never help you get anywhere, but nowhere.

Despite lobel's purple sarcasm font, there's some truth to his post. If you want to do Pain, and only Pain, with no desire to do the primary specialty, then doing an Anesthesia residency is the best odds to get a Pain Fellowship spot. Right or wrong, statistically that's a fact. Even through Anesthesia, a Pain fellowship spot is far from guaranteed, so you should still do a primary specialty you like and would be happy with if you didn't get a spot.

Some Pain fellowships won't even begin to look at you if you're not Anesthesia, even though they're not supposed to be closed like that and certainly won't advertise it if they are (since all programs are supposed to be "multi-disciplinary, now). On the other hand, some Pain programs have a spot or two they like to hold and fill with non-anesthia, non-PM&R people. Since the non-anesth/non-PMR pool is usually very small, paradoxically, you might have much better odds at a program like this, possibly even better than some of the anesth/PMR people. The odd of the EM people applying for ACGME spots that I know of seems to be about 50% (n of <10) which isn't as low as you might think. With EM being "official" now, will this change? I don't know.

To answer your question, here are my thoughts on "how to make yourself more competitive" coming from your situation (EM).

1, 2 and 3 are and always will be to be an excellent, smart, hardworking, team playing, resident that gets good letters of recommendations and scores high on the boards, regardless of "specialty." If you're good, you're good. Quality is quality. Don't forget this.

4. If you can, do a Pain elective if not at home, then an away. If you can't get this, make your own 1 wk, or 2 wk informal elective shadowing an ACGME Pain doctor. Another option, would be an interventional rads elective. Anything where you learn about fluoroscopy and how to use it.

5. In your residency, anything you can do "pain" related, do it. Don't forget about your required presentations. Don't pick "Interesting Rectal Foreign Bodies, 'From the Vault'" as you're topic, as much as you'd like to. Pick "Pain in the ED" or "US guided nerve blocks in the ED" or something to that effect. Show interest early on in this way.

6. Take a Pain cadaver/procedure course, if they'll let you, and if you can get a resident price. Examples:
http://asipp.org/meetings.htm
http://www.spinalinjection.org/?page=activities

7. Research: even if your program is small, that doesn't mean you cant do some form of "research." In fact, I think every residency has some requirement for this. Find something pain related. One example is seen out there was a study that was joint between the ED and Pain dept, where there was a comparison between single shot US guided femoral nerve blocks (do by the ED) vs US guided femoral nerve catheter vs traditional IV meds for hip fractures. That was a good way to get in the door of the "Pain" world.

8. Apply widely, and I cannot emphasize this enough. Apply to every ACGME program in the country; literally, all 80-90 or however many there are. Although it should not be this way, realistically, you may get interviews from 1 in 6 places you apply, and then get an offer from 1 in 6 of those. Do the math.

9. You'll become proficient in wound repair, suturing, do plastics repairs and rotations and hand surgery rotations (super helpful surgical skills that are great skils if doing implantables), as well as ortho rotations, reading xrays and MRIs. You'll do facial nerve blocks, dental blocks, digital blocks, propofol sedations, intubation/rsi, central lines, LPs, and numerous other procedures that bring skills to your fellowship.

10. Sell your uniqueness and be confident in your skills. "I bring something different to the table" will likely go sell better than, "Ooh, ooh, pick me, I'm almost as good as Anesthesia, really!" The perspective in the ED is different, very different. THAT IS A STRENGTH. You will see acute radiculitis, you'll see chronic, you'll see everything in between. You'll see patients that go to a Pain MD, you'll see the patients kicked out of Pain practices that no pain doctor will see. You'll see acute pain from broken necks, you'll see patients 5 wks after their broken neck, you'll se patients 25 yr after their broken neck (albeit not the same patient). You'll see just about every form of acute or chronic pain imaginable in some quantity or form. You'll be proficent in codes/syncope/resucitation which is very valuable in the procedure suite (though fortunately not frequently needed). You'll see patients with epidural hematomas and abscesses, diagnose them and learn how to pick them up early (tell me that's not valuable experience). And probably most importantly, you'll learn "do no harm" better than anyone in any other primary specialty could. You'll tell a family member (many more than one) that their loved one is dead from a prescription opiate OD and despite pushing every ACLS drug, narcan and the kitchen sink, they're still dead. You'll see opiate addiction and patients with this disease at their most terminal rock-bottom state, and you'll never forget these images every time you consider writing a prescription for an opiate. That will be of great benefit not only to you, but to your patients and the field of Pain Medicine, is you should choose to enter it.

PM me if interested.
 
Last edited:
I don't think so. It's nowhere near as simple as that. If the patient is on Coumadin for example? Do you think that MRI can always be done day of, or next day? You think it's justified to admit the patient for observation for an MRI that might not happen for 3 days and be read for 2 days after that? Do you believe that insurance will actually pay for that?
MRI may have to be authorized by insurance, which may require conservative treatment first in the absence of red flags, including anti-inflammatories and physical therapy. Keep the patient in the ER for 6 weeks of conservative care? And it goes against the conservative practice model- many, if not most, of the patients will improve significantly with time, anti-inflammatories, and physical therapy. Those who don't, or are so miserable that you think that doing an epidural ASAP would really be beneficial, may be candidates for injections- but this will also require insurance auth, denials, appeals etc. and those who improve will not have undergone MRI and injections when they would have improved given time and treatment in the first place.
I really don't think that it would be possible to run this kind of practice while managing an active ER. It's just not realistic. It's running an outpatient protocol at the same time as an ER. And will the ER doctor be in his office "M/W/F 7-4" the same week as working an ER schedule? Do you think that's possible? And do you think you will earn enough on the follow up visit in the office to pay the rent and staff the office?
I think it's so unlikely that someone could run both of these practices. All patients cannot be d/c'ed only on anti-inflammatories- you are assuming that these are all virgin pain patients. Those are nice, but it can be much more complicated than that. Never mind taking the liability on your shoulders of performing the procedure based on your own radiologic interpretation (which may be fine) instead of letting a radiologist, who is specifically trained in this and does it all day, do a final read, which may take a few days.
Why would you not just focus on one or the other to minimize screw ups? Either practicing ER medicine or pain is enough of a full-time job. I just don't think it's possible to do both in the manner described above.

I kind of don't get your point, still but....


I do 100% Pain, currently and that's what is working best for me right now. There is no "practice to run" in EM, for the most part. For the EM people reading, I could easily work ED shifts if I wanted. I got 3 emails today, from departments that are short staffed. You just get credentialed and go work shifts. But I have no desire. I'm just too busy right now with my Pain practice M-F to do that.

Could I cut my work week to 4 days, and start picking up EM shifts? Absolutely.

Do I have any desire to do so? No.

Would I do pain procedures in a busy ED? No. (Exception, maybe knee, shoulder, hip bursa, or trigger point.)
 
Last edited:
I do 100% Pain.
for some reason, that fact is utterly incomprehensible to avalon10.


additionally, currently, ER docs run sports med practices while working part time in ER, ER docs run toxicology services while working part time in ER and ER docs run palliative care services while working part time in ER.


you might want to work in an ER before commenting about how difficult (or easy) it is to get someone "admitted" to Obs. the purpose of Obs is to save hospital and insurance money by avoiding full admission. if a patient cant be discharged due to severe pain, and ends up admitted/obs'd, the MRI will get authorized and done, probably within 48 hours, depending on whichever hospital one is at. all to avoid a full admission.
 
for some reason, that fact is utterly incomprehensible to avalon10.


additionally, currently, ER docs run sports med practices while working part time in ER, ER docs run toxicology services while working part time in ER and ER docs run palliative care services while working part time in ER.


you might want to work in an ER before commenting about how difficult (or easy) it is to get someone "admitted" to Obs. the purpose of Obs is to save hospital and insurance money by avoiding full admission. if a patient cant be discharged due to severe pain, and ends up admitted/obs'd, the MRI will get authorized and done, probably within 48 hours, depending on whichever hospital one is at. all to avoid a full admission.
I know. Amazing. Lol
 
Ducttape- PLEASE read the comments before you post. Why wouldn't you do that? Where in this entire thread have I "persisted in not believing that ER can have a role in pain management"?
I understand that an ER doctor can do a pain fellowship and then do pain- why part of that don't you understand, ducttape? Do you read a lot?
EMD practices 100% pain. Sounds good to me.
So you propose keeping a patient in the ED for 48 hours while the MRI is done?? And in this role you propose to act as an ER doctor, an interventional pain doctor, and a radiologist? Do you really, really believe that you are capable of that, that it's is safe,and in the patients best interest? There is a reason that there are different specialties that each require years of training- so that a patient can be treated by a doctor that does a specific thing regularly- whether it be an ER doctor, a radiologist, or an interventional pain doctor.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ducttape- PLEASE read the comments before you post. Why wouldn't you do that? Where in this entire thread have I "persisted in not believing that ER can have a role in pain management"?
I understand that an ER doctor can do a pain fellowship and then do pain- why part of that don't you understand, ducttape? Do you read a lot?
EMD practices 100% pain. Sounds good to me.
So you propose keeping a patient in the ED for 48 hours while the MRI is done?? And in this role you propose to act as an ER doctor, an interventional pain doctor, and a radiologist? Do you really, really believe that you are capable of that, that it's is safe,and in the patients best interest? There is a reason that there are different specialties that each require years of training- so that a patient can be treated by a doctor that does a specific thing regularly- whether it be an ER doctor, a radiologist, or an interventional pain doctor.
these comments now suggest you are trying to obfuscate the discussion as a justification of your thread. i highlighted some of your quotes.


I really don't understand the point of an ER doctor doing a pain fellowship.

Or does the ER doctor now have an outpatient office with access to flouroscopy?

And who is going to hire a pain-fellowship trained ER doctor?

What kind of job or practice do you see this doctor fitting into?

ER doctors probably shouldn't (and I can't imagine would want to) deal with chronic pain medications. Is a patient going to return to the same ER doctor for monthly visits? And where? The ER or an outpatient office?

ER to pain seems to be a much more radical change than anesthesia or PM&R to pain, in which it's possible to really do 2 specialties at a time.

Do you think it's OK to do one in the ER without an MRI or CT? And will you order that and keep the patient in the ER until it's done?

My guess that ER doctors who do a pain fellowship will have a much harder time staying in both specialties.

I really don't think that it would be possible to run this kind of practice while managing an active ER.

And will the ER doctor be in his office "M/W/F 7-4" the same week as working an ER schedule?

And do you think you will earn enough on the follow up visit in the office to pay the rent and staff the office?

I think it's so unlikely that someone could run both of these practices.



ill make it as simple as possible. Just like an anesthesiologist can spend 2 days in pain clinic and 3 in OR, a PM&R doc can spend 2 days inpatient rehab and 3 days in pain clinic, or 100% pain, an ER pain doc can spend 100% doing pain, or spend 3 days in clinic, and cover the weekend evening shifts 3:30-11:30.

Or run an pain clinic 8am-12 noon and run his urgent care clinic 1 til 7, M-F.

or work MWF pain clinic, T Th in ER working day shift.

or work MW pain clinic, T F sports med, F and every other Sat in ER or urgent care.....
 
The same people that hire fellowship trained pain doctors from other primary specialties. I know at least one on the faculty a Harvard (Pain Dept), at least 2 others who had no problem finding hospital employed jobs, and I had no problem finding a very good private-practice 100%-Pain job myself. As others have stated, the idea is to do Pain full time if you're going to spend the year doing a fellowship, much like most cardiologists do cards full time and don't work internal medicine shifts after their fellowships. In my opinion, if you're going to call yourself a "specialist" in something it's best to do it full time, and not be a part-timer, or just "dabble" in it.

Cardiology is based off of internal medicine. The same goes for any other medicine sub-specialty. If ER can do pain fellowships, why not internal medicine, family medicine or pediatrics? The primary care folks deal more with chronic pain than ER.
 
Hey, no thread on SDN is complete if someone doesn't MF EM. I recall at least one other post from Steve with disdain for EM, so I think he doesn't think much of it as a specialty.

If I am mistaken, my apologies.

EM is a great field. Not suited towards pain, but still much more action than PMR. Saving lives is important.

But some places the ED is just a maitre d, "Please have a seat sir, I'll get a hospitalist to admit you.
 
EM is a great field. Not suited towards pain, but still much more action than PMR. Saving lives is important.

But some places the ED is just a maitre d, "Please have a seat sir, I'll get a hospitalist to admit you.

Fair assessment. However, the maitre'd aspect is falling away as more docs are EM trained, and not just other specialty burnouts.
 
If ER can do pain fellowships, why not internal medicine, family medicine or pediatrics? .

They can. Any specialty can do a pain fellowship. It's been discussed as nauseum on this forum.
 
In the last 3-4 states I've lived in you can't drive a half mile in any direction without passing some Pain Clinic. The last thing the country needs is more Pain doctors, IMO. Why can't other physicians be like the Dermatologists and be smart about limiting their numbers?
 
In the last 3-4 states I've lived in you can't drive a half mile in any direction without passing some Pain Clinic. The last thing the country needs is more Pain doctors, IMO. Why can't other physicians be like the Dermatologists and be smart about limiting their numbers?

The last thing this country needs is more poorly trained pain doctors. How many of those doctors in a half mile were BC?

I can't go out and hang a shingle that says dermatologist just because I know how to inject Botox. Why do we allow wannabes to call themselves pain doctors?

As far as EM, congratulations. I wouldn't recommend a medical student choose EM as the best pathway to pain, but if you put in the work to get a fellowship spot you deserve to sit for the boards.
 
Top