Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™

[Aslanim]

With a few days separating us from 2019, (Happy New Year folks!), it is important to keep in mind that 2019 will continue to usher in the trend of MEGA D.O schools™. A MEGA school™ is hereby defined as a program that enrolls more than 400 medical students a year. In 2019, 2 Southern institutions NOVA and LMU-DCOM will join the ranks of MEGA D.O Schools™.
Thus starting summer 2019, the list of MEGA schools™ will become:
1- KCUCOM (453 students first year enrollment)
2- LECOM (510 students first year enrollment including a projected 120 for LECOM Elmira)
3- LMU-DCOM (projected 254 +162 = 416 students first year enrollment)
4- NSU-KPCOM (projected 256 + 162 = 418 students first year enrollment)
5- NYITCOM (435 students first year enrollment)
6- PCOM (418 students first year enrollment, possible 120 expansion of GA-PCOM = 538 first year students)
Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™!

*Edited to remove Tuoro-NY from the list of MEGA Schools. Tuoro NY only has around 270 first year students and not 407 as was originally stated. Also edited the first year enrollment at LECOM from 709 to 599 as Bradenton is considered a separate program.

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...14d6e069d49ff00008852d2.pdf?sfvrsn=54422197_6
https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...-list-of-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine.pdf

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[Spectreman]

With a few days separating us from 2019, (Happy New Year folks!), it is important to keep in mind that 2019 will continue to usher in the trend of MEGA D.O schools™. A MEGA school™ is hereby defined as a program that enrolls more than 400 medical students a year. In 2019, 2 Southern institutions NOVA and LMU-DCOM will join the ranks of MEGA D.O Schools™.
Thus starting summer 2019, the list of MEGA schools™ will become:
1- KCUCOM (453 students first year enrollment)
2- LECOM (589 students first year enrollment + projected 120 for LECOM Elmira = an impressive 709 first year students in 2020)
3- LMU-DCOM (projected 254 +162 = 416 students first year enrollment)
4- NSU-KPCOM (projected 256 + 162 = 418 students first year enrollment)
5- NYITCOM (435 students first year enrollment)
6- PCOM (418 students first year enrollment, possible 120 expansion of GA-PCOM = 538 first year students)
7- Tuoro NY (407 students first year enrollment)
Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™!

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...14d6e069d49ff00008852d2.pdf?sfvrsn=54422197_6
https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...-list-of-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine.pdf

I hate this so much.

 

[Wjldenver]

With a few days separating us from 2019, (Happy New Year folks!), it is important to keep in mind that 2019 will continue to usher in the trend of MEGA D.O schools™. A MEGA school™ is hereby defined as a program that enrolls more than 400 medical students a year. In 2019, 2 Southern institutions NOVA and LMU-DCOM will join the ranks of MEGA D.O Schools™.
Thus starting summer 2019, the list of MEGA schools™ will become:
1- KCUCOM (453 students first year enrollment)
2- LECOM (589 students first year enrollment + projected 120 for LECOM Elmira = an impressive 709 first year students in 2020)
3- LMU-DCOM (projected 254 +162 = 416 students first year enrollment)
4- NSU-KPCOM (projected 256 + 162 = 418 students first year enrollment)
5- NYITCOM (435 students first year enrollment)
6- PCOM (418 students first year enrollment, possible 120 expansion of GA-PCOM = 538 first year students)
7- Tuoro NY (407 students first year enrollment)
Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™!

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...14d6e069d49ff00008852d2.pdf?sfvrsn=54422197_6
https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...-list-of-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine.pdf

Yep...and the next Mega Trend will be an increasing number of DO students who do not match and will need to pursue alternate careers (pharmaceutical sales, etc.) Basically careers you could all obtain with a bachelor's degree. ...And you can all thank the COCA for their leadership.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Yo dawg I heard you liked DO schools. So we put a DO school in a state with 3 DO schools but it’s a branch campus of another DO school in another state that has 3 DO schools dawg - Xzibit, host of Pimp My DO School

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Yep...and the next Mega Trend will be an increasing number of DO students who do not match and will need to pursue alternate careers (pharmaceutical sales, etc.) Basically careers you could all obtain with a bachelor's degree. ...And you can all thank the COCA for their leadership.

Before this happens, DOs will fill all the FM and IM slots and be competing with IMGs for these. Don't forget to blame the AOA for their miserable leadership and allowing the merger to go forward.

 

[DO2015CA]

Before this happens, DOs will fill all the FM and IM slots and be competing with IMGs for these. Don't forget to blame the AOA for their miserable leadership and allowing the merger to go forward.

I agree about terrible leadership but they didn’t have a choice with the merger. It was a hostile takeover.

 

[Osminog]

If match rates start to drop for DO graduates (as you guys claim that they would), then DO schools will be forced to shrink their class sizes and the pendulum will swing the other way. No reason for concern.

 

[DrGoon]

Before this happens, DOs will fill all the FM and IM slots and be competing with IMGs for these. Don't forget to blame the AOA for their miserable leadership and allowing the merger to go forward.

Merger seems fair to me. Why should DO students have the luxury to apply to both types of programs when MDs weren't given the option of a backup match?

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Hey at least people won’t have to go very far for a Carribean experience!!

 

[Shammyguy3]

At least with a school like KCU, they've been around for a century

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Before this happens, DOs will fill all the FM and IM slots and be competing with IMGs for these. Don't forget to blame the AOA for their miserable leadership and allowing the merger to go forward.

Idk. DOs have significant voting power on the ACGME board now. I’ve even been fortunate enough to meet some of these DOs and it was clear they are trying and lobbying hard to make sure DOs don’t come out of this merger worse than before.

 

[Goro]

Merger seems fair to me. Why should DO students have the luxury to apply to both types of programs when MDs weren't given the option of a backup match?

And there were only some 3000 AOA slots, for some 8000+ DO grads. One perverse way of looking at it was that the AOA slots were for the strongest (as in ENT/Derm/Ortho etc residencies or for the weakest grads.

I'm not concerned with the idea of the Mega schools if all the students are getting rotations and finding jobs at graduation.

I am worried that the students with red flags will not find jobs, given the rate of expansion.

What are some of the Mega MD schools? IU is one, given its main campus and seven branches.

 

[studentdoct4281]

Just be careful and don’t go to a “not-yet” accredited aoa residency program or a newer aoa one.

 

[Aslanim]

What are some of the Mega MD schools? IU is one, given its main campus and seven branches.

Close but no cigar. By definition:

. A MEGA school™ is hereby defined as a program that enrolls more than 400 medical students a year.

Indiana University School of medicine (as the largest U.S MD school) had 364 first-year students for the class of 2021.
Thus to my knowledge, MEGA U.S M.D schools do not exist. However, there are offshore M.D MEGA Schools™. SGU and Ross come to mind, as well as ELAM (the Latin American School of Medicine in Cuba) which enrolls around 1500 first-year students.

 

[DrGoon]

Flawed reasoning considering DOs and MDs aren’t considered equal when residency applications are viewed.

Why should they be considered equal when applying to residencies? Most people accept that DO is a backup plan for students. If DOs want to be viewed as the equal to MDs then merging training programs seems to be a convenient solution.

 

[ChicagoBear]

And there were only some 3000 AOA slots, for some 8000+ DO grads. One perverse way of looking at it was that the AOA slots were for the strongest (as in ENT/Derm/Ortho etc residencies or for the weakest grads.

I'm not concerned with the idea of the Mega schools if all the students are getting rotations and finding jobs at graduation.

I am worried that the students with red flags will not find jobs, given the rate of expansion.

What are some of the Mega MD schools? IU is one, given its main campus and seven branches.

From AAMC data, there are only 3 MD schools with more than 300 students per year: Indiana (1495 total students @374/year); Illinois (1390 total students @ 348/year); Wayne State (1228 total students @307/year) - all major state universities. There are only 7 more schools with more than 250 students per year: U of Washington, Jefferson-Kimmel, Drexel, UT-Houston, Minnesota, Medical College of Wisconsin and Case Western Reserve.

EDIT: The 364 first year class number for Indiana is close to what is shown on their website (363). The AAMC numbers I provided are the total number of MD students, which can vary slightly each year and can be impacted by gap years etc. divided by 4.

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Is what this thread is slowly turning into with MD vs DO

 

[QueenJames]

All the new pre-meds better get their ticket to hop onto the primary care train.

CHOO CHOO.

DO will be the new Caribbean in 5-6 years.

Don't @ me.

 

[863168]

How is this behavior any different from the rapid growth and expansion of pharmacy schools? Disgusting. Literally willing to trade the value of medical education and practice in the long term so that a few people on the top can rake in the dough in the short term.

 

[Goro]

Why should they be considered equal when applying to residencies? Most people accept that DO is a backup plan for students. If DOs want to be viewed as the equal to MDs then merging training programs seems to be a convenient solution.

PDs don't think that way.

They do tar all DO applicants with the same brush based upon poor clinical training at some schools. Thus, there are far more DO students affected by the anti-DO bias from PDs than there are MDs who were barred from the forner AOA residencies.

 

[2021Doctor]

With a few days separating us from 2019, (Happy New Year folks!), it is important to keep in mind that 2019 will continue to usher in the trend of MEGA D.O schools™. A MEGA school™ is hereby defined as a program that enrolls more than 400 medical students a year. In 2019, 2 Southern institutions NOVA and LMU-DCOM will join the ranks of MEGA D.O Schools™.
Thus starting summer 2019, the list of MEGA schools™ will become:
1- KCUCOM (453 students first year enrollment)
2- LECOM (589 students first year enrollment + projected 120 for LECOM Elmira = an impressive 709 first year students in 2020)
3- LMU-DCOM (projected 254 +162 = 416 students first year enrollment)
4- NSU-KPCOM (projected 256 + 162 = 418 students first year enrollment)
5- NYITCOM (435 students first year enrollment)
6- PCOM (418 students first year enrollment, possible 120 expansion of GA-PCOM = 538 first year students)
7- Tuoro NY (407 students first year enrollment)
Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™!

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...14d6e069d49ff00008852d2.pdf?sfvrsn=54422197_6
https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...-list-of-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine.pdf

AslanMacit,
Interesting post. Please keep it up. Looking forward to more posts from you.

 

[_Rod_of_Asclepius_]

Being DO makes things more difficult but not impossible like SDN loves to promote

 

[863168]

Being DO makes things more difficult but not impossible like SDN loves to promote

True. There are only going to be 4 times to 7 times the amount of students in a graduating class, some of which exceed the amount of students within fourth tier law schools and pharmacy schools. But this must be a JD v. DO and PharmD v. DO issue rather than just being a physician training issue.

Edited comment, edited out the italicized and underlined.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

With a few days separating us from 2019, (Happy New Year folks!), it is important to keep in mind that 2019 will continue to usher in the trend of MEGA D.O schools™. A MEGA school™ is hereby defined as a program that enrolls more than 400 medical students a year. In 2019, 2 Southern institutions NOVA and LMU-DCOM will join the ranks of MEGA D.O Schools™.
Thus starting summer 2019, the list of MEGA schools™ will become:
1- KCUCOM (453 students first year enrollment)
2- LECOM (589 students first year enrollment + projected 120 for LECOM Elmira = an impressive 709 first year students in 2020)
3- LMU-DCOM (projected 254 +162 = 416 students first year enrollment)
4- NSU-KPCOM (projected 256 + 162 = 418 students first year enrollment)
5- NYITCOM (435 students first year enrollment)
6- PCOM (418 students first year enrollment, possible 120 expansion of GA-PCOM = 538 first year students)
7- Tuoro NY (407 students first year enrollment)
Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™!

Sources:
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...14d6e069d49ff00008852d2.pdf?sfvrsn=54422197_6
https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...-list-of-colleges-of-osteopathic-medicine.pdf

 

[Gordon Gekko]

 

[alprazoslam]

The question is why did they allow all these schools to open then make comlex harder to pass this year? It brings in more money yeah (more takers and Failers) but placement rate is gonna TANK when you have a bunch of barely got in DO applicants getting tazerfaced by COMLEX


Let’s just be honest most people who got into DO school by the skin of their teeth don’t just blast med school away. Some do but it’s not the normal. Do we really think the otherwisewoulsbe future carib gone DO kids are gonna swim?

It’s not fair to them to let them in.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I agree about terrible leadership but they didn’t have a choice with the merger. It was a hostile takeover.

They took the politically expedient route. They should have seen this coming with all the new schools and residencies closing, DO and MD. Residencies were consolidating, at least in our market, and they did little to increase and improve our slots. Our graduates were facing a situation where there might not be enough residency slots since the ACGME kicked us out. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for their feckless stewardship. I agree with others on this forum and believe this , and other factors, is the beginning of the demise of osteopathic medicine.

 

[vel]

Alright wise forum hands, while I know it's just guesswork at this point, how much do you think this rate of school and class expansion will change the already ambitious residency chances of 2019's OM1's for programs like diagnostic rads and EM in 2023?

 

[allantois]

They are making Medschools great again

#mmga

 

[DrGoon]

Alright wise forum hands, while I know it's just guesswork at this point, how much do you think this rate of school and class expansion will change the already ambitious residency chances of 2019's OM1's for programs like diagnostic rads and EM in 2023?

might as well drop out and reapply MD tbh

 

[Doctorishere12345]

So many DO students got accepted into the school, are there enough spots for everyone to do the resident along with MD students?

 

[libertyyne]

Alright wise forum hands, while I know it's just guesswork at this point, how much do you think this rate of school and class expansion will change the already ambitious residency chances of 2019's OM1's for programs like diagnostic rads and EM in 2023?

DR and EM are not super competitive in the grand scheme of things. Match rates with reasonable step1 scores >220 were in excess of 85%

 

[libertyyne]

So many DO students got accepted into the school, are there enough spots for everyone to do the resident along with MD students?

Its not about enough spots. Its about being competitive/ selective enough to outcompete enough people.

 

[vel]

might as well drop out and reapply MD tbh

I'm already 2 steps ahead, studying to crush the LSAT. better get in yourself while you still can

 

[Goro]

Alright wise forum hands, while I know it's just guesswork at this point, how much do you think this rate of school and class expansion will change the already ambitious residency chances of 2019's OM1's for programs like diagnostic rads and EM in 2023?

So many DO students got accepted into the school, are there enough spots for everyone to do the resident along with MD students?

As of right now, there are still more residency slots than bodies to fill them. What I predict is that more DO grads will have to accept going to PC positions at community hospitals in more rural areas. These people will be displacing Carib IMGs (FMGs are a different story).

The unknowns will be how fast new residency slots will be created. We have seen that some schools are being proactive and creating positions, even if it means you have to go to, say, Peoria IL, or Emporia KS.

My biggest concern will be fate of students with red flags like Board failures or repeatings of a year. I suspect that these will be the first of those who won't match IF grads exceed residency slots.

Keep in mind that the Worst Case Scenario will last only a few years. At that point, sanctions will kick in and offending schools will be forced to either invest in creating residency slots, or pare their class sizes. The "death penalty" would force them to not accept new Classes for a year or two. This happened to a Pharmacy school just a few years ago, and that was triggered by a massive attrition rate, not a failing to match rate.

I know a lot of you view things through the prism of the money angle, and the individual DO schools certainly have figured out that DO schools are cash cows, but at the level of the AOA and COCA, thier view is like a religious mission. "More DOs good!"

 

[Goro]

I'm already 2 steps ahead, studying to crush the LSAT. better get in yourself while you still can

Law? That's in an a vastly worse position than Medicine. The ABA doesn't give a rat's ass if you never get a job after graduating.

 

[vel]

Law? That's in an a vastly worse position than Medicine. The ABA doesn't give a rat's ass if you never get a job after graduating.

My bad, I just used sarcasm in response to DrGoon's sarcasm. I like medicine too much to consider leaving it.

I agree with your viewpoint on the ABA here, too.

 

[Goro]

My bad, I just used sarcasm in response to DrGoon's sarcasm. I like medicine too much to consider leaving it.

I agree with your viewpoint on the ABA here, too.

Alas, sarcasm doesn't travel well over the electrons.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

As of right now, there are still more residency slots than bodies to fill them. What I predict is that more DO grads will have to accept going to PC positions at community hospitals in more rural areas. These people will be displacing Carib IMGs (FMGs are a different story).

The unknowns will be how fast new residency slots will be created. We have seen that some schools are being proactive and creating positions, even if it means you have to go to, say, Peoria IL, or Emporia KS.

My biggest concern will be fate of students with red flags like Board failures or repeatings of a year. I suspect that these will be the first of those who won't match IF grads exceed residency slots.

Keep in mind that the Worst Case Scenario will last only a few years. At that point, sanctions will kick in and offending schools will be forced to either invest in creating residency slots, or pare their class sizes. The "death penalty" would force them to not accept new Classes for a year or two. This happened to a Pharmacy school just a few years ago, and that was triggered by a massive attrition rate, not a failing to match rate.

I know a lot of you view things through the prism of the money angle, and the individual DO schools certainly have figured out that DO schools are cash cows, but at the level of the AOA and COCA, thier view is like a religious mission. "More DOs good!"

As always, a concise and spot on analysis. Well said.

 

[Solodyn]

If match rates start to drop for DO graduates (as you guys claim that they would), then DO schools will be forced to shrink their class sizes and the pendulum will swing the other way. No reason for concern.

you serious?!

 

[Osminog]

you serious?!

Yes, I'm serious. If a DO school fails to perform adequately in the match, then it will have to raise admission standards and shrink its future class sizes. As domestic institutions, DO schools can't get away with what Caribbean schools get away with.

 

[libertyyne]

Yes, I'm serious. If a DO school fails to perform adequately in the match, then it will have to raise admission standards and shrink its future class sizes. As domestic institutions, DO schools can't get away with what Caribbean schools get away with.

pharm schools and law schools got away with it for years. No reason why DO schools cant follow suit.

 

[sabsaf123]

@hallowmann or @jkdoctor could one of you please tell us if current OMS1s (graduating in 2022) have to worry about this?

 

[Dr.Bruh]

pharm schools and law schools got away with it for years. No reason why DO schools cant follow suit.

Pharm and law school don’t have a higher standard counter part that they are constantly trying to stay level with (MDs). Obviously DO standards are lower but they do rise with MD standards and they are not stagnate. Admission standards, ACGMe match rate, % taking usmle etc have increased every year.

 

[libertyyne]

Pharm and law school don’t have a higher standard counter part that they are constantly trying to stay level with (MDs). Obviously DO standards are lower but they do rise with MD standards and they are not stagnate. Admission standards, ACGMe match rate, % taking usmle etc have increased every year.

If DO schools truly wanted to stay level with MD they would have restricted class size and increased research requirements and admission criteria, and stopped teaching pseudoscience a long time ago. Hint, they dont care, Coca and AOA would be perfectly happy if a good chunk of DO's just did a year of rotating internship and went out into the world to preach about OMM.
TOP tier law schools are a different breed compared to the the other bunch of law schools in terms of post graduation opportunity and outcomes. This did not restrict lower tier law schools from proliferating .

 

[Osminog]

pharm schools and law schools got away with it for years. No reason why DO schools cant follow suit.

You cannot be a practicing physician without residency training.

To be a practicing pharmacist, you don't need residency training; you can go straight into a retail gig making six figures (if you're not too selective about location).

To be a practicing attorney, you don't need any post-graduate training.

At a law school with low post-graduate employment rates, all graduates (who pass the bar) are still qualified to practice law. At a pharmacy school with subpar residency match rates, all graduates (who pass certification exams) are still qualified to practice pharmacy. At a medical school where a lot of graduates can't match into a residency, these graduates will NEVER BE allowed to practice medicine.

Do you see why the matching situation in medicine is different from the other two situations you mentioned? DO schools cannot get away with producing a bunch of debt-burdened doctors who aren't ever going to be legally allowed to practice medicine.

 

[libertyyne]

You cannot be a practicing physician without residency training.

To be a practicing pharmacist, you don't need residency training; you can go straight into a retail gig making six figures (if you're not too selective about location).

To be a practicing attorney, you don't need any post-graduate training.

At a law school with low post-graduate employment rates, all graduates (who pass the bar) are still qualified to practice law. At a pharmacy school with subpar residency match rates, all graduates (who pass certification exams) are still qualified to practice pharmacy. At a medical school with subpar residency match rates, some graduates are NOT qualified to practice medicine.

Do you see why the matching situation in medicine is different from the other two situations you mentioned? DO schools cannot get away with producing a bunch of debt-burdened doctors who aren't ever going to be legally allowed to practice medicine.

if law schools can generate grads without requirements for gainful employement, im not sure what is stopping DO schools. there is nothing in the coca accreditation standards that mandates residency placement at a certain percentage. There is just a suggestion that 100% be placed. Doesnt mean that schools are being shut down for performing less . Schools are not obligated to have you legally practice medicine. Schools are obligated to provide you with the opportunity to enter GME.

 

[Deecee2DO]

If match rates start to drop for DO graduates (as you guys claim that they would), then DO schools will be forced to shrink their class sizes and the pendulum will swing the other way. No reason for concern.

Lol facts. Thank God

 

[Dr.Bruh]

If DO schools truly wanted to stay level with MD they would have restricted class size and increased research requirements and admission criteria, and stopped teaching pseudoscience a long time ago. Hint, they dont care, Coca and AOA would be perfectly happy if a good chunk of DO's just did a year of rotating internship and went out into the world to preach about OMM.
TOP tier law schools are a different breed compared to the the other bunch of law schools in terms of post graduation opportunity and outcomes. This did not restrict lower tier law schools from proliferating .

It takes an extreme amount of delusion and hyperbole to make me defend the AOA/coca but that’s just not true. I’ve met the 2 presidents of the AOA and the president of the NBOME and that is just not what they want at all. The president of the AOA is an ACGME trained ophthalmologist so he know what DOs are up against and what we have to prove to match competitively. I strongly disagree with their positions on pushing us to still take AOA boards (I honestly think that campaign will die soon after the merger as they realize it’s a lost cause) and trying to equate COMLEX with usmle instead of just combining them. But they are fully aware 95%+ of grads are not gunna use OMM and would not be satisfied as long as everybgrad just got a TRI and that’s it. Where do you even come up with this stuff??

 

[Deecee2DO]

It takes an extreme amount of delusion and hyperbole to make me defend the AOA/coca but that’s just not true. I’ve met the 2 presidents of the AOA and the president of the NBOME and that is just not what they want at all. The president of the AOA is an ACGME trained ophthalmologist so he know what DOs are up against and what we have to prove to match competitively. I strongly disagree with their positions on pushing us to still take AOA boards (I honestly think that campaign will die soon after the merger as they realize it’s a lost cause) and trying to equate COMLEX with usmle instead of just combining them. But they are fully aware 95%+ of grads are not gunna use OMM and would not be satisfied as long as everybgrad just got a TRI and that’s it. Where do you even come up with this stuff??

Good to know. But trying to equate COMLEX with USMLE will be a lost cause unless it can change the minds of PDs IMHO which will be difficult because inherent bias will remain despite changing the exam. Just my opinion, not fact