Welcome to the new era of MEGA D.O Schools™

[2021Doctor]

Not sure if you keep track of the federal government but they are not renown for being fiscally responsible. All I am saying is that when people stop matching, you are going to hear a lot about gme expansion, and depending on the political and social forces at work at the time it is possible that it will occur. People were equally in disbelief about the ACA, social security or other large bills. GME expansion is tiny cost compared to tax cuts or many other things congress does on a regular basis. You can be in disbelief all you want, But I wouldnt personally put a large bet on the line that it wont happen.

Good, you can keep up that dream of vast GME funding expansion. I will be happy to admit if you turn out to be right and I am wrong,
I am an AOA member and know that the AOA HOD has another solution.

On Saturday, the AOA House of Delegates passed a resolution calling for the profession to advocate for federal legislation to allow U.S. medical school graduates to lay first claims on U.S. residency positions.
Members of the New York State Osteopathic Medical Society (NYSOMS), which submitted the resolution, believe that the nation’s residency positions should first be offered to graduates of U.S. medical schools before international medical graduates (IMGs) can secure them.
“There’s a collision between the numbers of graduates of U.S. medical schools and the limited number of residency positions currently in the U.S.,” says Robert B. Goldberg, DO, the dean of the Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in New York. “Soon, those positions will be saturated before we count one internationally trained physician vying for one of the slots.”
Steven I. Sherman, DO, the president of NYSOMS, says he wrote the resolution because the numbers of medical students are increasing while U.S. residency positions have remained relatively stagnant.
“These students need to have a place to go when they are finished,” says Dr. Sherman, who is an ophthalmologist in New York City. “It doesn’t seem right to me that students should incur a tremendous financial debt and not have any place to go afterward.”
House supports offering residency positions to US med school grads first

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[2021Doctor]

It’s literally not. Most doctors not being AMA members doesn’t change the fact that it is the largest organized group lobbying for physicians.

Do not disagree that AMA lobbies Congress.
DIsagree that is it "for physicians".
Suggest you read Is the AMA Really the Voice of Physicians in the US? | Physician's Weekly
and suggest you read: The Criminalization of Medicine: America's War on Doctors By Ronald T. Libby including the section on the AMA and CPT codes.

 

[libertyyne]

Good, you can keep up that pipe dream of vast GME funding expansion.
The AOA has another solution.

On Saturday, the AOA House of Delegates passed a resolution calling for the profession to advocate for federal legislation to allow U.S. medical school graduates to lay first claims on U.S. residency positions.
Members of the New York State Osteopathic Medical Society (NYSOMS), which submitted the resolution, believe that the nation’s residency positions should first be offered to graduates of U.S. medical schools before international medical graduates (IMGs) can secure them.
“There’s a collision between the numbers of graduates of U.S. medical schools and the limited number of residency positions currently in the U.S.,” says Robert B. Goldberg, DO, the dean of the Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in New York. “Soon, those positions will be saturated before we count one internationally trained physician vying for one of the slots.”
Steven I. Sherman, DO, the president of NYSOMS, says he wrote the resolution because the numbers of medical students are increasing while U.S. residency positions have remained relatively stagnant.
“These students need to have a place to go when they are finished,” says Dr. Sherman, who is an ophthalmologist in New York City. “It doesn’t seem right to me that students should incur a tremendous financial debt and not have any place to go afterward.”

im unsure why you are displacing your anger on me.
I for the record do not want gme expansion.
I do not want Medical school expansion.
I do not know the future, but neither do you. And If you do know the future you should probably go into finance where you could make some money or buy lottery tickets.

I am just telling you what most of the industry of medical education is proposing and what the large lobbying organizations are in support of. You can choose to put your fingers in your ears and block this out or you know you could acknowledge the real threat and when you are in position to write a check do so to stop these organizations. The world and politics is a place where literally unprecedented things happen at a higher frequency than most people are capable of acknowledging.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Do not disagree that AMA lobbies Congress.
DIsagree that is it "for physicians".
Suggest you read Is the AMA Really the Voice of Physicians in the US? | Physician's Weekly
and suggest you read: The Criminalization of Medicine: America's War on Doctors By Ronald T. Libby including the section on the AMA and CPT codes.

Ok, that doesn't change anything dude. I don't know why you are arguing this. You and I know the AMA is garbage and has their own agenda not representative of a majority of physicians. That doesn't change the fact that the lawmakers view the AMA as the physician lobby group.....

 

[2021Doctor]

im unsure why you are displacing your anger on me.
I for the record do not want gme expansion.
I do not want Medical school expansion.
I do not know the future, but neither do you. And If you do know the future you should probably go into finance where you could make some money or buy lottery tickets.

I am just telling you what most of the industry of medical education is proposing and what the large lobbying organizations are in support of. You can choose to put your fingers in your ears and block this out or you know you could acknowledge the real threat and when you are in position to write a check do so to stop these organizations. The world and politics is a place where literally unprecedented things happen at a higher frequency than most people are capable of acknowledging.

I have no anger at you. You keep citing the power of these lobbying organizations. I do not agree. That is all.
The lobbying organizations were not successful in passing the Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2017. I do not see anything changing in 2019

Ok, that doesn't change anything dude. I don't know why you are arguing this. You and I know the AMA is garbage and has their own agenda not representative of a majority of physicians. That doesn't change the fact that the lawmakers view the AMA as the physician lobby group.....

I am glad we both know the AMA is garbage and has their own agenda.

 

[libertyyne]

I have no anger at you. You keep citing the power of these lobbying organizations. I do not agree. That is all.
The lobbying organizations were not successful in passing the Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2007, 2009, 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2017. I do not see anything changing in 2019

Im glad that you can predict the future so accurately. would you mind sharing some lottery numbers?

 

[deleted950463]

its because the AMA , LCME, AAMC and COCA people in the industry are telling congress too, writing their bills for them, and spending money lobbying them to expand, all the while stating that it will help alleviate some physician shortage in the minds of those organizations.

You still haven’t told me WHY GME expansion is needed

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You still haven’t told me WHY GME expansion is needed

You guys are REALLY missing the point of what he is saying....

 

[2021Doctor]

Im glad that you can predict the future so accurately. would you mind sharing some lottery numbers?

My prediction for 2019 is based on this:
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2007 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2007 (2007 - S. 588)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2009 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2009 (2009 - S. 973)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2011 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2011 (2011 - S. 1627)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2013 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2013 (2013 - S. 577)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2015 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2015 (2015 - S. 1148)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2017 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2017 (S. 1301)
Also, the Senate sponsor of the bill (Nelson) did not get reelected.
What is your prediction for 2019 based on other than the power of lobbying?
You also do realize that the chances of getting things done with a Democrat House, Republican Senate, and Republican President are now even lower than last year.

 

[deleted950463]

You guys are REALLY missing the point of what he is saying....

And his point is?

 

[libertyyne]

And his point is?

that once american graduates decrease matching. The medical education industry is going to push hard for GME expansion, regardless of the actual eventual harm it will lead to to physician incomes.

 

[2021Doctor]

that once american graduates decrease matching. The medical education industry is going to push hard for GME expansion, regardless of the actual eventual harm it will lead to to physician incomes.

House supports offering residency positions to US med school grads first

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And his point is?

He is simply stating that the political screeching from the AMA and others are not going to stop and when enough medical students aren't finding a residency the screeching will get louder and louder. There is a real possibility that this ultimately leads to GME expansion, regardless of the ramifications.

 

[libertyyne]

My prediction for 2019 is based on this:
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2007 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2007 (2007 - S. 588)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2009 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2009 (2009 - S. 973)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2011 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2011 (2011 - S. 1627)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2013 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2013 (2013 - S. 577)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2015 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2015 (2015 - S. 1148)
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2017 - DIED
Resident Physician Shortage Reduction Act of 2017 (S. 1301)
Also, the Senate sponsor of the bill (Nelson) did not get reelected.
What is your prediction for 2019 based on other than the power of lobbying?
You also do realize that the chances of getting things done with a Democrat House, Republican Senate, and Republican President are now even lower than last year.

i never said it would get passed this year. or the next. All I am saying is that these organizations are going to continue to push hard for this. Something that has literally been brought up every two years for the past decade does not concern you?

 

[deleted950463]

He is simply stating that the political screeching from the AMA and others are not going to stop and when enough medical students aren't finding a residency the screeching will get louder and louder. There is a real possibility that this ultimately leads to GME expansion, regardless of the ramifications.

Carribean US IMGs have long been having trouble with match. The current DO students are on par with some of the big 4 students prior to DO expansion and the newer DO school have students weaker than SGU kids during 2010s. Why should their “cry” be heard now if they don’t match?

One doesn’t deserve to match just because they are a DO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Carribean US IMGs have long been having trouble with match. The current DO students are on par with some of the big 4 students prior to DO expansion and the newer DO school have students weaker than SGU kids during 2010s. Why should their “cry” be heard now if they don’t match?

One doesn’t deserve to match just because they are a DO.

The point.


















































You.

 

[deleted950463]

The point.


















































You.

I don’t think you understand what I am talking about. The GME expansion will not happen for the reason repeated above, but if you choose to dream, that’s your right.

 

[libertyyne]

Carribean US IMGs have long been having trouble with match. The current DO students are on par with some of the big 4 students prior to DO expansion and the newer DO school have students weaker than SGU kids during 2010s. Why should their “cry” be heard now if they don’t match?

One doesn’t deserve to match just because they are a DO.

The medical educational industry doesnt really support Caribbean schools. They do support american schools and MD and DO grads. The AMA , COCA, AAMC all will be screaming expansion when local grads stop matching. They literally have already been screaming about it, and have proposed legislation every 2 years for the past decade. It is not about strength of student, rather the all the money, jobs and political power these organizations stand to gain with expansion, it is just convenient that they can paint the picture of good doctors studying hard and doing well in medical school taking out loans and not matching. No one gives two ****s about the carribean and if anything blame the matriculants for falling prey to them. The expansion becomes way more pertinent when you have a manufactured crisis of american students not matching .

This is not an exercise in rationality otherwise DO schools would have stopped expanding a long time ago since enough IMGs are available to fill the pool of residency positions.

 

[Winter2014]

Carribean US IMGs have long been having trouble with match. The current DO students are on par with some of the big 4 students prior to DO expansion and the newer DO school have students weaker than SGU kids during 2010s. Why should their “cry” be heard now if they don’t match?

One doesn’t deserve to match just because they are a DO.

just curious, you have any data backing those claims that "newer DO schools have students weaker than SGU kids"
Numbers, not anecdotal data points.

 

[deleted950463]

just curious, you have any data backing those claims that "newer DO schools have students weaker than SGU kids"
Numbers, not anecdotal data points.

Avg mcat of students

 

[Winter2014]

Avg mcat of students

okay, and what is the average MCAT of these new DO schools vs Average MCATS of "SGU 2010 class"

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The GME expansion will not happen for the reason repeated above

The point is that your statement is INCONSEQUENTIAL. If american grads are going unmatched then the amount of shouting from the AMA, COCA, LCME, etc will amplify to the level where lawmakers might just actually cave to their demands. It has literally nothing to do with what you are talking about.

but if you choose to dream, that’s your right.

Who is dreaming dude? No one here has said they support residency expansion. Are you intentionally being obtuse?

 

[deleted950463]

The point is that your statement is INCONSEQUENTIAL. If american grads are going unmatched then the amount of shouting from the AMA, COCA, LCME, etc will amplify to the level where lawmakers might just actually cave to their demands. It has literally nothing to do with what you are talking about.



Who is dreaming dude? No one here has said they support residency expansion. Are you intentionally being obtuse?

I don’t think you understand. American grads have been unmatched for decades. It hasn’t been a problem.

 

[libertyyne]

I don’t think you understand. American grads have been unmatched for decades. It hasn’t been a problem.

yes , yes the 95+% match rate for decades has been a huge problem. I hope you are still around these boards when the match rates will be high to mid 80's and see if you think match rates are not going to be a problem for professional organizations.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I don’t think you understand. American grads have been unmatched for decades. It hasn’t been a problem.

Someone doesn't understand but it definitely isn't me.....

Let me spell it out for you. US grads have always been able to at least find a residency spot barring very extreme circumstances. Finding a residency for US grads has literally never been a problem. The number of US graduates has always been THOUSANDS below the number of residency spots. Within the next decade the number of US grads will equal the number of residency spots. When that happens there will be medical students WITHOUT a residency of any kind. Not, "oh I didn't match so I'll scramble." but "Oh **** I have 300k in debt and won't ever get a spot." If you think the leadership organizations won't have a problem with this you are insane.

When that happens, the AMA, COCA, LCME, etc, will have lots of firepower to use in their lobbying to the politicians. When that happens the politicians might just give in.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Carribean US IMGs have long been having trouble with match. The current DO students are on par with some of the big 4 students prior to DO expansion and the newer DO school have students weaker than SGU kids during 2010s. Why should their “cry” be heard now if they don’t match?

One doesn’t deserve to match just because they are a DO.

My school is new, and the MCAT average was 503 for this year basically on par with the average DO schools. Last time I checked, SGU, the best of Caribbean med schools average was 496. And don't forget there was a time the average DO school mcat was around 23-24 on the old MCAT, so technically the average has risen since.

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[Angus Avagadro]

I quite frankly cant understand why some genius at the AOA or the AMA, or some govt bean counter hasn't proposed creating "UN funded" residency slots. By looking at the number of late model foreign cars in our student parking lot, it appears more than a few students could sustain themselves during residency without stipends. Remember where the term Resident comes from...
Physician in residence, at the hospital. I am NOT advocating this, but it might be considered by some as a simple way to add more slots with little to no increase in funding. Amazingly, I have had conversations with faculty and administrators who dont like the idea that their tax dollars go to subsidizing resident education. Our colleagues and advocates??? Go figure.

 

[libertyyne]

I quite frankly cant understand why some genius at the AOA or the AMA, or some govt bean counter hasn't proposed creating "UN funded" residency slots. By looking at the number of late model foreign cars in our student parking lot, it appears more than a few students could sustain themselves during residency without stipends. Remember where the term Resident comes from...
Physician in residence, at the hospital. I am NOT advocating this, but it might be considered by some as a simple way to add more slots with little to no increase in funding. Amazingly, I have had conversations with faculty and administrators who dont like the idea that their tax dollars go to subsidizing resident education. Our colleagues and advocates??? Go figure.

There used to be a few of those unfunded residency positions in desirable fields. I think there were changes in the ACGME rules that prompted closure of those. IIRC there were derm residencies where the resident had to pay to be a resident.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

There is evidence that says that a resident is most likely to work within a 200 mile radius of their residency program. Theoretically creating a residency program in town A will lead to more doctors in town A.



This was going to be my response as well. The reason these rural towns don’t have GME is because you can’t just open up a program in the middle of nowhere. You have to have a site where you see a certain variety of pathology, acuity, etc to have a training program @DrStephenStrange



It’s literally not. Most doctors not being AMA members doesn’t change the fact that it is the largest organized group lobbying for physicians.

Only if town A has the volume to actually support more doctors tho. Which they usually don't, and with the residency there they have more than they needed already.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

yes , yes the 95+% match rate for decades has been a huge problem. I hope you are still around these boards when the match rates will be high to mid 80's and see if you think match rates are not going to be a problem for professional organizations.

I wonder how long Still will remain his avatar as 2023 actually draws near. And I feel I need to correct you and emphasize that the PLACEMENT rates will be mid to high 80's. The Match rate is currently in the low 80's (plateauing at 81% in 2017 and 2018, which was an improvement). The issue will be that the other currently 17.8% (cause 1.2% didn't place) will have increasing problems finding slots in the future.

 

[2021Doctor]

okay, and what is the average MCAT of these new DO schools vs Average MCATS of "SGU 2010 class"

SGU:
Over the last five years, students entering the four-year medical have been steadily presenting an average GPA of 3.33 and MCAT of 497.
Facts and Figures | St. George's University

VCOM
Data here showing average Carolina campus with average MCAT of 499 and Auburn campus with average MCAT of 496.
VCOM Applicants Total Applicants for All Campuses - PDF

KYCOM
Data here showing MCAT 499 GPA 3.54
https://www.upike.edu/UPike/media/UPike/Documents/Academics/Institutional Research/PC-FactBook-2018-Ed.pdf

 

[libertyyne]

I wonder how long Still will remain his avatar as 2023 actually draws near. And I feel I need to correct you and emphasize that the PLACEMENT rates will be mid to high 80's. The Match rate is currently in the low 80's (plateauing at 81% in 2017 and 2018, which was an improvement). The issue will be that the other 18% will have increasing problems finding slots in the future.

yeah, I was referring to the MD match rates. But you are correct in terms of placement ultimately going down.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

yeah, I was referring to the MD match rates. But you are correct in terms of placement ultimately going down.

IC, I still expect MD's to place at a 99% rate, but yes their match will drop also. DO's I expect to place at less than 90% by 2026 if we keep expanding like this.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

SGU:
Over the last five years, students entering the four-year medical have been steadily presenting an average GPA of 3.33 and MCAT of 497.
Facts and Figures | St. George's University

VCOM
Data here showing average Carolina campus with average MCAT of 499 and Auburn campus with average MCAT of 496.
VCOM Applicants Total Applicants for All Campuses - PDF

KYCOM
Data here showing MCAT 499 GPA 3.54
https://www.upike.edu/UPike/media/UPike/Documents/Academics/Institutional Research/PC-FactBook-2018-Ed.pdf

Some MD schools like HBCUs and those in Puerto-Rico have their average MCAT in the 497-500 range as well.

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[deleted950463]

I wonder how long Still will remain his avatar as 2023 actually draws near. And I feel I need to correct you and emphasize that the PLACEMENT rates will be mid to high 80's. The Match rate is currently in the low 80's (plateauing at 81% in 2017 and 2018, which was an improvement). The issue will be that the other currently 17.8% (cause 1.2% didn't place) will have increasing problems finding slots in the future.

As much as I am proud to be a DO, I have to be realistic about the world. It’s unfortunate that COCA is turning DO into something similar to Carribean schools and I fully expect the placement rate to paralle the Carribean schools if this trend continues.

 

[Goro]

I quite frankly cant understand why some genius at the AOA or the AMA, or some govt bean counter hasn't proposed creating "UN funded" residency slots. By looking at the number of late model foreign cars in our student parking lot, it appears more than a few students could sustain themselves during residency without stipends. Remember where the term Resident comes from...
Physician in residence, at the hospital. I am NOT advocating this, but it might be considered by some as a simple way to add more slots with little to no increase in funding. Amazingly, I have had conversations with faculty and administrators who dont like the idea that their tax dollars go to subsidizing resident education. Our colleagues and advocates??? Go figure.

I really do NOT want to see doctors tread where lawyers have pioneered. They already have enough unpaid interns.

 

[deleted950463]

I really do NOT want to see doctors tread where lawyers have pioneered. They already have enough unpaid interns.

If you don’t want to see doctors tread where lawyers have pioneered, 50% of the DO schools need to go. The ACGME merger is a good direction to elevate the training.

I personally think it’s perfectly appropriate for DO schools to not place 100% of its grads (just like the Carribean schools), given the difference in the makeup of student body.

 

[Goro]

If you don’t want to see doctors tread where lawyers have pioneered, 50% of the DO schools need to go. The ACGME merger is a good direction to elevate the training.

I personally think it’s perfectly appropriate for DO schools to not place 100% of its grads (just like the Carribean schools), given the difference in the makeup of student body.

Not following your logic. You're saying that just because someone has a 3.4 GPA and a 497 MCAT they don't deserve to be a doctor?

 

[deleted950463]

Not following your logic. You're saying that just because someone has a 3.4 GPA and a 497 MCAT they don't deserve to be a doctor?

I am saying that the ACGME is not obliged to increase GME spots just so that every DO who failed their board twice can get a primary care spot. I am saying it’s OK to have a 80% placement rate for DOs. I am saying we have the right amount of GME, if not too many spots, right now.

But then again, I also think every DO should take the USMLE as an requirement so...

 

[alprazoslam]

Not following your logic. You're saying that just because someone has a 3.4 GPA and a 497 MCAT they don't deserve to be a doctor?

Not sure if that would be the gpa cutoff but mcat wise yeah maybe 495 I mean any lower is on the “I can’t read words” spectrum

 

[Goro]

I am saying that the ACGME is not obliged to increase GME spots just so that every DO who failed their board twice can get a primary care spot. I am saying it’s OK to have a 80% placement rate for DOs. I am saying we have the right amount of GME, if not too many spots, right now.

But then again, I also think every DO should take the USMLE as an requirement so...

I agree with the second point. At my school, I think that if you fail COMLEX 2x, you're dismissed. Don't know how it is at other schools. BTW, Most DO schools have 1st time pass rates for Level I at 95% or higher, and for a good number, it's in the high 90s. So we're talking about only a handful of students/school.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I agree with the second point. At my school, I think that if you fail COMLEX 2x, you're dismissed. Don't know how it is at other schools. BTW, Most DO schools have 1st time pass rates for Level I at 95% or higher, and for a good number, it's in the high 90s. So we're talking about only a handful of students/school.

I believe my school has the 3 strike rule with respect to COMLEX

 

[deleted950463]

Nice, dismissal after two, three fails after the COMLEX, a reputed much easier exam than step 1....

Yeah I think I am ok with a placement rate of 80% after merger.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I am saying that the ACGME is not obliged to increase GME spots just so that every DO who failed their board twice can get a primary care spot.

No one is saying they are. You, however, are neglecting the fact that the people with multiple board failures is not 20% of DOs.

I am saying it’s OK to have a 80% placement rate for DOs.

Lol then you should have no reason to oppose new schools opening.

I am saying we have the right amount of GME, if not too many spots, right now.

It's more nuanced than that. Some fields have an overabundance, but there are fields that absolutely have a true shortage. Those fields are also the ones where opening up GME for them can be tricky.

Yeah I think I am ok with a placement rate of 80% after merger.

I think your view is extremely shortsighted and you are missing the larger point of this thread.

 

[deleted950463]

No one is saying they are. You, however, are neglecting the fact that the people with multiple board failures is not 20% of DOs.


Lol then you should have no reason to oppose new schools opening.



It's more nuanced than that. Some fields have an overabundance, but there are fields that absolutely have a true shortage. Those fields are also the ones where opening up GME for them can be tricky.



I think your view is extremely shortsighted and you are missing the larger point of this thread.

So tell me, which field has a true shortage? Radiation oncology?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So tell me, which field has a true shortage? Radiation oncology?

Vascular surgery for starters.....

 

[deleted950463]

Vascular surgery for starters.....

1 DO matched VS this year. Doesn’t sound like a great field for us DOs. I am not sure if there were any AOA VS residency. Many rural hospitals do not have the open operative volumes to sustain a VS and ALL their endovascular work in a rural setting can be done by IRs and cards.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Nice, dismissal after two, three fails after the COMLEX, a reputed much easier exam than step 1....

Yeah I think I am ok with a placement rate of 80% after merger.

Unless you are in the 20%who dont match after the scramble/ SOAP. If you dont match, your student loans come due. Without a training license, can only get one if you are a resident, you can
1 Work in a prison
2 work for an drug company
3 Work for BC/BS and deny claims for tests ordered by your classmates who matched successfully.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Not following your logic. You're saying that just because someone has a 3.4 GPA and a 497 MCAT they don't deserve to be a doctor?

Are you saying they do deserve to be a doctor? Cause if that is the claim than I have to go with no. I don't see how someone who is below average in both major metrics for a given pool of individuals deserves anything. Now once that applicant has completed med school, and is coming up to residency, due to the immense cost and training that has gone into them, that is the point where deserves might come into play.

Doctorsdatdo has, IMO, a healthy view of what DO school is becoming, a mere chance to become a physician rather than a guarantee. This is a good way to view things as a student. However, I do not think it should, or rather, that it has to be this way for our profession. We can and should do better. The match shouldn't be the filter after 300k of debt, your initial app to med school should be.

Nice, dismissal after two, three fails after the COMLEX, a reputed much easier exam than step 1....

Yeah I think I am ok with a placement rate of 80% after merger.

And this is where we disagree, thats a premed position to take. The people who make it to the finish line should be able to match, especially as it will only be 80% or less of your class in the first place with schools ever quickening the hammer drop. It is unacceptable to mimic the for-profit Caribbean model as profession, but it is fine for you as an individual to look at school as the dog fight it really is.

 

[Goro]

Are you saying they do deserve to be a doctor? Cause if that is the claim than I have to go with no. I don't see how someone who is below average in both major metrics for a given pool of individuals deserves anything. Now once that applicant has completed med school, and is coming up to residency, due to the immense cost and training that has gone into them, that is the point where deserves might come into play.

IF they can make it through med school, what do you think?

I do believe that not all people deserve to be a doctor. It's a privilege, not a right. Some people do need to be let go after fall OMSI, in order to save them a lot of debt. But I was getting the vibe from the other guy of some stats elitism.

For the record, to date, with the combined AOA and ACGME matches, nearly all DO schools have 95%+ match rates. There are about three in the very low 90s, with WCU at the bottom of the pool. Hearing that their Dean has joined COCA fills me with dread.