Welp, see ya later medical school

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coldpheet

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I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate :( ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

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Hold on... what about "pay as you earn" option from the loan providers?
 
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And 20 years from now, you will realize you made a horrible mistake. IBR, PAYE and win.
 
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Sorry to hear, I agree the way financial aid works really sucks for some due to a belief that their family SHOULD be willing to help foot the bill. It really makes it hard to choose to become a physician, and pretty much all but makes it impossible to do anything non-specialist due to loans.

Not to add to the top of your this sucks cake, but the loan rates are supposed to be going up to 6.1%/7.1% or something close to that I believe.
 
And 20 years from now, you will realize you made a horrible mistake. IBR, PAYE and win.

PAYE = %10 of income, remaining balance forgiven after 20 years,
 
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Does PAYE cover private loans? Sounded like OP didn't have any government loans.
 
By the way, there are posts by attendings in some of the specialty forums who say they managed to pay a few hundred thousand back -- the entirety of their student loans -- within a few years by living a resident lifestyle into their thirties. You're presumably young and this could be an option -- it's aggressive and takes sacrifice, so only you can weigh if that would be worth it. I wouldn't give up your acceptance yet until you've really crunched the possible numbers.
 
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Do you currently have loans?

You've probably already seen this related thread... and this was five years ago so the numbers are more daunting for the very expensive schools. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/medicine-worth-300k-of-debt.663924/

Nope, no undergrad debt. I have a +$30k net worth from two years of aggressive savings while working during 2 gap years. I'm currently 24 yo.
I thought there was chatter of the PAYE being abolished or revised into oblivion long before I can take advantage of its benefits. Can anyone comment on ths? The last thing I want to do is make minimum payments then have the gummint change their minds and be left with 2x principal of interest to pay off.

Btw, my loans will be 50% stafford unsub and 50% grad plus unsub
 
Apply next year to cheaper schools. It's ridiculous that you only got one acceptance with a 37 MCAT.
 
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.... So is it tufts or BU? Cuz there is no way you turned down Harvard
 
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Man up and take the loans - these are the regular government loans that will have lots of options as far as repayment.

Sign up for rural medicine or primary care if you are really worried.

Otherwise, just do what plenty of others do and aim for a specialty that will pay you a lot more than $250k.

Are you planning on getting married? Your family income is likely to be bigger than what you expect for yourself.

If you are a very good student/resident, hospitals will often offer to pay off your educational loans as a signing bonus/five year bonus, whatever.

Also, @omegaz , do you really think OP can reapply after turning down an offer?
 
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I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

Also, this is a pretty rude paragraph :eyebrow:
 
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That really is a crazy amount, and should be unaccetpable...but this is the messed up system we work with.
 
don't turn this down. most people would give anything to be in the position you are, debt or not. you have an excellent opportunity to do what you love before you.
 
Does PAYE cover private loans? Sounded like OP didn't have any government loans.
why do you say that? from what I see, there are no private loans mentioned here?
 
Well, that's four years down the drain....

You have a few months to think this through. At the very least, use all that time.
 
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Also, this is a pretty rude paragraph :eyebrow:

sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or passive aggressive. I've been working hard at this goal and it sucks to get this far and then be so let down by the cost. It feels predatory.
 
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four years of what?
Referring to undergrad I believe.

I would search and read around more OP, there are options and paths to pay off this money by your late 30's or early 40's. Not ideal, but if being a physician is something you truly want, it can be done despite the huge price tag.
 
This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate :( ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

You're making a poor decision on multiple levels. First, you're throwing in the towel on the only thing you'd like to do because by your own calculations, which seem overly negative to me, you'd only be getting $150k per year to play with after your loan payments. That's still a pretty impressive annual income to most people, and I dare say it'll be considerably higher than what you could reasonably expect from just getting a job with your bachelor's degree. So it's already a poor financial decision from there. Plus, student loan interest is tax-deductible, if I'm not mistaken, and most the the specialties where you'd be earning around $250,000 tend to be primary care oriented and have additional government or employer-sponsored repayment programs on top of your regular income. Unless, of course, you're insistent on living in a major coastal metropolis, in which case you'll pay dearly for the privilege of practicing in a "desirable" market. But even then, it'd probably work out in your favor.

They'd also probably have a three year residency, not four.

And aren't your loans forgiven after ten years at IBR? You'd be more limited in your employment opportunities to work somewhere that's eligible and they'd probably pay less, but it might be worth it.

If money's the reason you're walking away, it's a bad decision. If money's just a justification for another reason that's easier to stomach for yourself or the people you know, then go ahead, I guess.

Apply next year to cheaper schools. It's ridiculous that you only got one acceptance with a 37 MCAT.

It'd take a pretty incredible amount of debt to make it worthwhile to lose an additional year of attending pay to reapply and hopefully go somewhere cheaper while making maybe $30-$40k during that off year. That's going to be at least a $210k loss using the OP's numbers. Not to mention putting off what you want to do with your life for an additional year.
 
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don't turn this down. most people would give anything to be in the position you are, debt or not. you have an excellent opportunity to do what you love before you.

All premeds I talk to say do it, what a great opportunity. Most residents and attendings I talk to tell me to run for the hills and never look back, even if I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do. That's before I mention my COA.

I think I should weigh the opinion of practicing docs a little more heavily...
 
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Is it too late to defer? If not, I'd take a year to think about it.

I'd be lying if I said that the debt didn't scare the life out of me.....but I've worked in different fields before and I can't see myself doing anything else with my life.
 
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sorry, I didn't mean to be rude or passive aggressive. I've been working hard at this goal and it sucks to get this far and then be so let down by the cost. It feels predatory.

Frankly, you did make the choice to apply to this school, so you knew the cost (and potentially not getting financial aid) going in.

I don't know about you, but I have spent every last dollar I earned in the last 2 years, that didn't go to necessities or student loans, on the medical school application process: fees, flights, etc, no FAP. I've sunk too much of myself into this process to imagine how you could back out.

$450k is a ton of money, but you will definitely be able to pay it off. Even if PAYE etc will not survive, there have always been generous programs to bring physicians to underserved areas. Also, you can make it your part time job to look for grants/scholarships your are eligible for and apply to them next year. You say you graduated from an Ivy, well then your network should include lots of wealthy donors who give money every year to the Insert Name Here Fund for Alums.
 
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OP rocks. With a 37 MCAT, you're not a doctor, you're an astronaut. If you care about lifestyle and livelihood, You could be making more money in your 20's than you ever could as a doctor in your 30s.

Obviously, your heart is not set on being a physician. Nothing is wrong with that. You do what you have to.
 
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All premeds I talk to say do it, what a great opportunity. Most residents and attendings I talk to tell me to run for the hills and never look back, even if I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do. That's before I mention my COA.

I think I should weigh the opinion of practicing docs a little more heavily...

Who are you asking? My mentors wouldn't tell you that! One lives in Michigan and makes a comfy $270 as a 9-5 (10-4, really) Pediatrician at a large hospital (she takes on some residency responsibilities). Another, also Michigan, makes around $500k as a private practice surgeon. Another just finished residency 3 years ago and is pulling in close to $300k as a hospitalist in rural North Dakota. All of them love their jobs (within realistic reason) and can't imagine another career they would like as much as the one they have.

location, location, location

Edit: the grass is often greener on the other side, you will find people in every profession who tell you not to go into that profession. Right now, I am surrounded by a bunch of PhDs who don't recommend doing it.....but when pressed say they wouldn't change a thing about their careers.
 
I'm an applicant that started off college poorly, and because of this I may never have the opportunity to be in your shoes.

With that said, I've also ran the numbers multiple times, and despite the astronomical debt that some of the more expensive private schools will inevitably put you in, I know I wouldn't ever be truly happy doing anything else and would kill to be in your position. I would gladly take your future debt in order to accomplish this goal.

If you think you could ultimately be happy with an engineering job, then give it some real thought and maybe go that route. But if you've wanted to be a physician so badly for so long that you truly do not want to do anything else, I would NOT give up this acceptance. Do what you have to to make the financial situation work, take it one step at a time, and go live out your dream that many would do anything to have the opportunity to live out.

Sorry for the unbelievably sappy and dramatic post haha, but I just had to throw in my $0.02.
 
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Who are you asking? My mentors wouldn't tell you that! One lives in Michigan and makes a comfy $270 as a 9-5 (10-4, really) Pediatrician at a large hospital (she takes on some residency responsibilities). Another, also Michigan, makes around $500k as a private practice surgeon. Another just finished residency 3 years ago and is pulling in close to $300k as a hospitalist in rural North Dakota. All of them love their jobs (within realistic reason) and can't imagine another career they would like as much as the one they have.

location, location, location

Edit: the grass is often greener on the other side, you will find people in every profession who tell you not to go into that profession. Right now, I am surrounded by a bunch of PhDs who don't recommend doing it.....but when pressed say they wouldn't change a thing about their careers.

These doctors told you how much they make?
 
These doctors told you how much they make?

Yes, these happen to be physicians I know is "real life": friend's parents, close family friends, family etc.

Edit, hence why n=3 :D That said, I have only met one physician out of 20-30 who I have asked who said he would not want to do medicine all over again....then again, he was trying to be a PI, a surgeon, and a dad all at the same time....
 
All premeds I talk to say do it, what a great opportunity. Most residents and attendings I talk to tell me to run for the hills and never look back, even if I feel like this is what I'm supposed to do. That's before I mention my COA.

I think I should weigh the opinion of practicing docs a little more heavily...
You sound like you haven't even made the decision yet if medicine is the right career/life choice for you despite having already gone through the whole application cycle... Sure some physicians will regret their choice, but that's true of any job, I would really recommend talking to a lot of people and doing some big soul searching NOW and decide if medicine is the right path for you. If so, take you acceptance and go for it and you'll be able to deal with the debt down the line, if not, drop it and change career choices before you get in too deep.
If you think you could ultimately be happy with an engineering job, then give it some real thought and maybe go that route. But if you've wanted to be a physician so badly for so long that you truly do not want to do anything else, I would NOT give up this acceptance. Do what you have to to make the financial situation work, take it one step at a time, and go live out your dream that many would do anything to have the opportunity to live out.
Unless OP is already trained as an engineer and/or has shown substantial talent already with that path, it would take a ton of time and investment to be able to become an engineer at this point that would set them back years and isn't going to guarantee any high salary unless they are really good at it (which who knows since they haven't done any of it).
 
I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate :( ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

I'll be paying between 75-80k per year and I'll be paying for it all by myself as well. I'll be doing the 10 year repayment and it sucks BIG TIME but that's just the way it is and anybody who "truly" wants to be a doctor just has to suck it up and do it. If you really can't see yourself being anything other than a physician I think you'll be kicking yourself in the ass later on down the road for not going into medical school when you had the chance.
 
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I thought there was chatter of the PAYE being abolished or revised into oblivion long before I can take advantage of its benefits. Can anyone comment on ths? The last thing I want to do is make minimum payments then have the gummint change their minds and be left with 2x principal of interest to pay off.

Btw, my loans will be 50% stafford unsub and 50% grad plus unsub

No, there's chatter of Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) being abolished, because no one has actually taken advantage of it. Pay As You Earn (PAYE) was just expanded to include more people (not sure the exact details of who qualifies now). PAYE is just a payment plan that limits the amount you pay each month to 10% of your disposable income, and provides forgiveness after... 25 years, I think. PSLF is the program that would have you work for a non-profit for 10 years and get the balance of your loans repaid.

Plus, student loan interest is tax-deductible, if I'm not mistaken, and most the the specialties where you'd be earning around $250,000 tend to be primary care oriented and have additional government or employer-sponsored repayment programs on top of your regular income.

Yes, student loan interest is tax-deductible, but I'm pretty sure there's a cap that exceeds the amount that physicians pay in interest each year.

And aren't your loans forgiven after ten years at IBR? You'd be more limited in your employment opportunities to work somewhere that's eligible and they'd probably pay less, but it might be worth it.

No, your loans are forgiven after 20 or 25 years under IBR, unless you also qualify for PSLF, which may not be around when OP has to repay loans, so I don't encourage people to bank on it.

I'll be paying between 75-80k per year and I'll be paying for it all by myself as well. I'll be doing the 10 year repayment and it sucks BIG TIME but that's just the way it is and anybody who "truly" wants to be a doctor just has to suck it up and do it. If you really can't see yourself being anything other than a physician I think you'll be kicking yourself in the ass later on down the road for not going into medical school when you had the chance.

You don't have to do a 10 year repayment. You can do an extended repayment if you so desire.

But I agree with the others on the thread--OP, don't give this up if you want to be a doctor.[/QUOTE]
 
You sound like you haven't even made the decision yet if medicine is the right career/life choice for you despite having already gone through the whole application cycle... Sure some physicians will regret their choice, but that's true of any job, I would really recommend talking to a lot of people and doing some big soul searching NOW and decide if medicine is the right path for you. If so, take you acceptance and go for it and you'll be able to deal with the debt down the line, if not, drop it and change career choices before you get in too deep.

Unless OP is already trained as an engineer and/or has shown substantial talent already with that path, it would take a ton of time and investment to be able to become an engineer at this point that would set them back years and isn't going to guarantee any high salary unless they are really good at it (which who knows since they haven't done any of it).

I believe OP said they have a degree in biomedical engineering from an Ivy League school. that's the only reason I used engineer as my example other career.
 
Yes, these happen to be physicians I know is "real life": friend's parents, close family friends, family etc.

Edit, hence why n=3 :D That said, I have only met one physician out of 20-30 who I have asked who said he would not want to do medicine all over again....then again, he was trying to be a PI, a surgeon, and a dad all at the same time....

What a family you have. Comparing incomes and sizes of your cockadoodledoos. Too rich for my blood.
 
I'm not an economist by any means but isn't it possible that in 20 years from now $400,000 will not be considered a significant amount of money due to inflation?
 
I was accepted this cycle c/o 2018. 3.6 gpa, 37 MCAT, BS (biomed E) from Ivy league school. California resident. Accepted at a private school in Boston (only school I got into).

This school is about $85k/yr and I did not receive any financial aid. No aid from family or friends either. With unsubsidized loans at 5.4% and 6.4% interest, I'm looking at $450k in debt by the time I finish a residency (4 yrs).

At a 10 yr repayment period, I would pay 40% of my month salary (assuming $250k/yr salary...probably a generous estimate :( ) in loan repayment with a total repayment of $560k. I could pay back on an IBR plan and only pay about 15% of my salary, but I would likely pay this off for the rest of my career and total repayment would be $750k.

This just doesn't make sense financially. Being a physician is really the only thing I would like to do, but I don't want to be an indentured servant to do it. Even the best career would turn sour if I feel like I am forced to do it because of suffocating debt.

I'm going to drop my offer. Good luck to whoever is on the waiting list licking their chops. I figure with my degree and undergrad school I can get an interesting job and make a decent salary and not kill myself in the process. I really admire you SDNers who have the guts to follow your dreams, debt and all.

I'm also a California resident with pretty high stats who decided not to even apply to private schools for the reasons you've listed. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't, and I've seen people take both of the following options:

Option A: "You didn't apply to any schools except the UCs?! Don't you realize how hard those are to get into? Seems irresponsible to apply to so few schools."

Option B: "You don't want to attend a high priced private school where you know no one, will hate the weather, and get into well over 300k+ debt? Why did you even apply there if you don't want to go there? (as if the applicant can tour every school before applying or predict if they'll get any financial aid) Don't you realize it will look bad next year if you apply again after rejecting a medical school?"

Both options are quite crappy. You also are unlikely to realize these are your two options until it's too late, as I rarely see people discuss the debt load and how incredibly difficult it is to get into UCs (for most people) in any of my classes.

Out of curiosity, what is your plan now?
 
Don't listen to the premeds, they don't know a thing. Medicine is getting crappier and the huge debt loan will make you stuck playing to someone else's tune until you get on your feet. That may mean taking crappy jobs in places you don't want for the money, especially if the job market is bad. I don't know what else you're planning on doing but if you have something lined up, I think you're making a very smart choice.
 
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I asked one of my interviewers (dean of admissions) at BU about their high average student loan debt and he responded "have you ever met a doctor on food stamps?" :rolleyes:

It's unfortunate that choosing this school will probably force me to abandon my primary care interests due to my disinterest in rural medicine. However, I do believe that how I manage my debt will be entirely up to me making smart decisions. I actually considered taking a gap year but 1. Losing 1 year of an Attending's salary and prolonging the premed crap hole seems pretty counterintuitive & 2. Apparently, reapplying is frowned upon after you've already been accepted
 
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I asked one of my interviewers (dean of admissions) at BU about their high average student loan debt and he responded "have you ever met a doctor on food stamps?" :rolleyes:

Should have asked him if he's ever had 400k+ of debt coming out of residency.
 
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I'm not an economist by any means but isn't it possible that in 20 years from now $400,000 will not be considered a significant amount of money due to inflation?

You're also by no means a doctor ;)
 
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Physicians as a whole have no real issues paying off their loans. However it sounds like you have many more concerns besides just the financial aspect, which is fair. Medicine is not something you should pursue if you have any significant hesitancy. It is a long and hard road, and if you are not passionate about it, you can get burned out like those residents and attendings that tell you to run for the hills.
 
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Who are you asking? My mentors wouldn't tell you that! One lives in Michigan and makes a comfy $270 as a 9-5 (10-4, really) Pediatrician at a large hospital (she takes on some residency responsibilities). Another, also Michigan, makes around $500k as a private practice surgeon. Another just finished residency 3 years ago and is pulling in close to $300k as a hospitalist in rural North Dakota. All of them love their jobs (within realistic reason) and can't imagine another career they would like as much as the one they have.

location, location, location

Edit: the grass is often greener on the other side, you will find people in every profession who tell you not to go into that profession. Right now, I am surrounded by a bunch of PhDs who don't recommend doing it.....but when pressed say they wouldn't change a thing about their careers.

Well, if your three physician friends say they love it, then I'm sure OP has nothing to worry about.
 
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Physicians as a whole have no real issues paying off their loans. However it sounds like you have many more concerns besides just the financial aspect, which is fair. Medicine is not something you should pursue if you have any significant hesitancy. It is a long and hard road, and if you are not passionate about it, you can get burned out like those residents and attendings that tell you to run for the hills.

Well, they have had no real issue paying off their loans. But tuition keeps increasing and reimbursements are uncertain at best and decreasing at worst. That's not the most comfortable of circumstances to gamble on.
 
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OP this is what you do...

You're obviously very smart, so I'm assuming you can kill your boards and land a high-paying specialty. Land said specialty, pull in 350k+ a year. Say F the student loans and simply don't repay them. Yes, your credit will be shot, but they can only garnish 15% of DISPOSABLE income for student loan repayment. Get a good accountant who will turn this into nothing. Since you're making major bucks, you pay for everything in cash money. Free medical education, high salary, no debt. Problem solved.
 
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OP this is what you do...

You're obviously very smart, so I'm assuming you can kill your boards and land a high-paying specialty. Land said specialty, pull in 350k+ a year. Say F the student loans and simply don't repay them. Yes, your credit will be shot, but they can't garnish your salary for student loan repayment. Since you're making major bucks, you pay for everything in cash money. Free medical education, high salary, no debt. Problem solved.

:troll:
 
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