West Coast SMPs versus East Coast

[doctorhoskinson]

This thread is for people who have attended or are attending a west coast smp or an east coast smp. Tell me about your experiences with the program and if it is/has helping you with the admissions process.

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[DrMidlife]

This thread is for people who have attended or are attending a west coast smp or an east coast smp. Tell me about your experiences with the program and if it is/has helping you with the admissions process.

There are no west coast SMPs. The farthest west for MD is Tulane. Farthest west for DO is AZCOM.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

UCLA has a very similar program as does UC davis to a SMP. Obviously a diferent name, but lots of medical school exposure.

 

[DrMidlife]

UCLA has a very similar program as does UC davis to a SMP. Obviously a diferent name, but lots of medical school exposure.

If you want to provide links to these programs, we can compare/contrast them to the established SMPs. Otherwise we don't know if you're talking about the global medicine masters at UCLA, or the URM postbacs, or what.

 

[DrMidlife]

More to the point, what's bolded below is pretty much all we do here in the postbac forum. Look for school-specific threads, some of which have over 500 posts and over 100,000 readers, and the low GPA thread.

This thread is for people who have attended or are attending a west coast smp or an east coast smp. Tell me about your experiences with the program and if it is/has helping you with the admissions process.

...and I think you'll find that one reason the "SMPs" you're citing at UCLA and Davis aren't thought of here as SMPs is that there's no data about their students getting into med school. An established SMP publishes its percentages, and lists the med schools where its students are now enrolled.

 

[gl0baltrader]

More to the point, what's bolded below is pretty much all we do here in the postbac forum. Look for school-specific threads, some of which have over 500 posts and over 100,000 readers, and the low GPA thread.



...and I think you'll find that one reason the "SMPs" you're citing at UCLA and Davis aren't thought of here as SMPs is that there's no data about their students getting into med school. An established SMP publishes its percentages, and lists the med schools where its students are now enrolled.

UCLA actually published their data for the Post Bac program, I think it was 85% gets into medical school but it is extremely competitive and geared towards Minority and the disadvantage students. I think UCD post-bac had only 15 spots and they received over 400 applicants last year.

 

[DrMidlife]

UCLA actually published their data for the Post Bac program, I think it was 85% gets into medical school but it is extremely competitive and geared towards Minority and the disadvantage students. I think UCD post-bac had only 15 spots and they received over 400 applicants last year.

Right. Goucher and Bryn Mawr publish stats too. These are postbacs. For folks who haven't completed the prereqs yet. Not SMPs.

 

[Daedalus]

Yeah, the UC's post-bacc programs (called RAP = Re-Applicant Program) are only for URM or disadvantaged students, and they do not involve any medical school classes (hence, not an SMP). Actually, at UCLA, they don't even include any UCLA classes. You take classes at local Cal States, etc. I've heard its pretty crappy as far as post-baccs go.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

...and I think you'll find that one reason the "SMPs" you're citing at UCLA and Davis aren't thought of here as SMPs is that there's no data about their students getting into med school. An established SMP publishes its percentages, and lists the med schools where its students are now enrolled.

After you become a physician, could you please find a way to extract the thing that crawled up your ass? Seriously man, a good SMP exposes its students to the academic rigor of a first year medical student and helps them strengthen weak areas of their app by providing good LOR, some access to research, and connections.

I don't care if the acceptance rate data is published or not. One can work with such tools to significantly increase their chance of getting accepted. The advantage of a California program is that one can usually get Cali residency in the time it takes to complete the program and some connections to the many, many medical schools in California- which is a great advantage to somebody in say Wyoming for example.

let's take a look at Stanford for example: http://med.stanford.edu/ms/

The biomedical informatics program is an incredible real masters program that provides people who have a very strong mathematics and computer science background a wonderful entry into the medical system. About 80% of their research is conducted with projects involving the Stanford school of medicine alongside Nobel Laureates. Man if you wanted to get into an MD/PhD that might be a great thing to try.

But I guess if it doesn't have SMP in the name or isn't only designed specifically for people just dying to get into medical school than it's a waste of time right DrMidlife?

 

[gl0baltrader]

Right. Goucher and Bryn Mawr publish stats too. These are postbacs. For folks who haven't completed the prereqs yet. Not SMPs.

No California's post bac is for student who has finished their pre-reqs but require additional science classes to show medical school committee that they are able to handle rigorous science classes. They also help you develop networking with the medical school, faculties, committee letters, etc...
But the thing is you have to be a Ca resident to qualify and many people that they accept are under represented minorities with interest in serving in the underserved communities. So if you are not an URM your chances of getting in are slim to none.

Personally, post-bac or SMP does not make any difference to me because they have the same end goal. that is to make you a good candidate for medical school.

 

[DrMidlife]

No California's post bac is for student who has finished their pre-reqs but require additional science classes to show medical school committee that they are able to handle rigorous science classes. They also help you develop networking with the medical school, faculties, committee letters, etc...
But the thing is you have to be a Ca resident to qualify and many people that they accept are under represented minorities with interest in serving in the underserved communities. So if you are not an URM your chances of getting in are slim to none.

Personally, post-bac or SMP does not make any difference to me because they have the same end goal. that is to make you a good candidate for medical school.

Oh OK, good to know. And all five UCs have these programs now, that's news to me.

http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/ome/postbacc/index.html
http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/prospective/premedical/default.cfm?pgID=183
http://meded.ucsd.edu/asa/dcp/postbac/index.cfm
http://medschool.ucsf.edu/postbac/
http://www.healthaffairs.uci.edu/som/meded/Admissions/PostBac.html

Edit: missed one, Riverside: http://biomed.ucr.edu/images/stories/ucr_postbac20092.pdf
Edit: missed another, UCLA has two: http://www.medsch.ucla.edu/postbac/
Edit: consortium website: http://meded-postbac.ucsd.edu/
Edit: I'm doing this to roll this info into the SMP list thread

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Oh OK, good to know. And all five UCs have these programs now, that's news to me.

isn't learning new things fun?

 

[DrMidlife]

isn't learning new things fun?

Yeah, that's what SDN is for. In particular, newcomers find out lots of things by asking questions, and submitting their cases for peer consultation.

 

[drizzt3117]

The UC postbac programs may be useful, but they still aren't SMPs. Also, not only are they not SMPs, but a relatively limited amount of people are able to apply to them.

 

[DrMidlife]

The UC postbac programs may be useful, but they still aren't SMPs. Also, not only are they not SMPs, but a relatively limited amount of people are able to apply to them.

Right, but since it's apparently contentious for me to have an opinion on what constitutes an SMP, and since we now have about 8 programs in the "structured undergrad programs for URMs who have already finished prereqs" category (Wake Forest is the other one, and I'm expecting to find some in Ohio) I might as well make a list. Plus I seem to like advertising the sexy new UTDallas postbac, which isn't URM-specific, but is otherwise in that same category. I mean, these seem to me to be legitimate SMP alternatives, for anybody who can take advantage.

 

[drizzt3117]

Right, but since it's apparently contentious for me to have an opinion on what constitutes an SMP, and since we now have about 8 programs in the "structured undergrad programs for URMs who have already finished prereqs" category (Wake Forest is the other one, and I'm expecting to find some in Ohio) I might as well make a list. Plus I seem to like advertising the sexy new UTDallas postbac, which isn't URM-specific, but is otherwise in that same category. I mean, these seem to me to be legitimate SMP alternatives, for anybody who can take advantage.

The UC postbacs aren't even masters programs... apparently SMP means something other than Special Masters Program?

 

[DrMidlife]

The UC postbacs aren't even masters programs... apparently SMP means something other than Special Masters Program?

You're right. I wasn't going to try to call them SMPs. Just trying to make info easy to find. Folks get sent over here from pre-allo or nontrad, when somebody says "do an SMP," and I'd hope to catch CA/SC URMs and TX residents with neato alternatives, before they fall hopelessly in love with Gtown.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

The UC postbacs aren't even masters programs... apparently SMP means something other than Special Masters Program?

Many of California's school admins currently feel that offering a worthless masters degree is against the philosophy of their respective colleges and thus are against a Georgetown style SMP. However, many colleges in Cali do offer great masters programs that are similar to SMPs in that they have strong roots with a particular medical school and some great research opportunities that will strength one's application.

The Cali residency option alone significantly helps a candidate by making it easier to get into California's eight medical schools. That's a wonderful thing for a guy living in say Nevada, Montana, or Wyoming.

 

[drizzt3117]

Many of California's school admins currently feel that offering a worthless masters degree is against the philosophy of their respective colleges and thus are against a Georgetown style SMP. However, many colleges in Cali do offer great masters programs that are similar to SMPs in that they have strong roots with a particular medical school and some great research opportunities that will strength one's application.

The Cali residency option alone significantly helps a candidate by making it easier to get into California's eight medical schools. That's a wonderful thing for a guy living in say Nevada, Montana, or Wyoming.

LOL... becoming a CA resident HELPS you in getting into med school? Especially as a borderline student? That is just delusional.

CA does have 8 med schools, but three of them are private, and four of them are in the top 15, making them among the most competitive schools in the country. 4937 students applied with CA residency last cycle, and only 2051 gained admission anywhere (41.5%) Of those students, only 834 matriculated into a CA school (17%) Just for comparison, 33.6% of Nevada's applicants matriculated into their state med school, and 49.4% matriculated somewhere. 48.7% of Montana applicants matriculated somewhere (many at the University of Washington where they are considered in state), and 50% of Wyoming applicants matriculated (again, many to UWash) CA is a terrible state to apply to med school from.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

CA is a terrible state to apply to med school from

Still better than a state that doesn't have any medical school.

LOL... becoming a CA resident HELPS you in getting into med school? Especially as a borderline student? That is just delusional.

Depends on how you look at the data. CA produces more premeds than any other state and most of the premeds apply at one or more Cali schools. With a 1/5 acceptance rate that isn't necessarily bad if you consider that about half of the people are not going to meet the bare bones requirements.

four of them are in the top 15

All the more reason to get some good connections and LOR from people at such schools. If you play with the best, then you have a good chance of finding an in somewhere.

only 2051 gained admission anywhere (41.5%)

That still means about 1 in 4 got accepted outside of the state. If you drill down the statistics more, then you will see of those 1,200 accepted outside Cali usually had some connection with a Cali medical school.

Texas does seem to be a better state for the residency argument, but frankly California is a great place to be if you want nearly unlimited academic choices for graduate level research and cutting edge healthcare exposure.

 

[drizzt3117]

Still better than a state that doesn't have any medical school.

Not true, Wyoming and Montana students can apply to the University of Washington as WWAMI students. I would much rather have that connection than be from CA (I was a CA applicant last cycle)

Depends on how you look at the data. CA produces more premeds than any other state and most of the premeds apply at one or more Cali schools. With a 1/5 acceptance rate that isn't necessarily bad if you consider that about half of the people are not going to meet the bare bones requirements.

It's the 5th worst percentage of any state with a public school system, so it's pretty much horrendous. The other states that are worse simply have very few med schools for the size of the state, and two of them are building new med schools and will be better than CA in the future.

All the more reason to get some good connections and LOR from people at such schools. If you play with the best, then you have a good chance of finding an in somewhere.

If they have a good chance, it's more likely because they are URM/disadvantaged, not because they're around top med schools. If that were the case, some of the best postbac outcomes would be from Columbia, Penn, Wash U, etc... however, they aren't among the most competitive/elite postbacs.

That still means about 1 in 4 got accepted outside of the state. If you drill down the statistics more, then you will see of those 1,200 accepted outside Cali usually had some connection with a Cali medical school.

That's because most of them went to UCs. I don't see what that has to do with anything whatsoever. The vast majority of those students also DIDN'T get accepted in CA, which is why they're attending school out of state.

Texas does seem to be a better state for the residency argument, but frankly California is a great place to be if you want nearly unlimited academic choices for graduate level research and cutting edge healthcare exposure.

Sorry, that's just not true, at least if you are interested in getting into med school.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Sorry, that's just not true, at least if you are interested in getting into med school.

If you are a minority- particularly of Latino decent- Cali has a lot of wonderful stuff for you. I'm not saying Cali is the best system, but there are lots of things a nontraditional student can do to get admitted while at California. If you're going MD/PhD route Stanford's program mentioned above is just exceptional.

they're around top med schools. If that were the case, some of the best postbac outcomes would be from Columbia, Penn, Wash U, etc... however, they aren't among the most competitive/elite postbacs.

They are not successful because they don't have tight enough integration with their respective medical schools. Columbia's program is in nutrition for god sakes. This reason alone is why Georgetown is so respected and Penn isn't.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you are a minority- particularly of Latino decent- Cali has a lot of wonderful stuff for you. I'm not saying Cali is the best system, but there are lots of things a nontraditional student can do to get admitted while at California. If you're going MD/PhD route Stanford's program mentioned above is just exceptional.

They don't have to be a CA resident to get an application advantage applying to CA schools. Certainly it could be appealing, though, but there are plenty of reasons not to go there. Also, to get CA residency you have to be in the state for non-educational reasons and pay taxes for one year.

They are not successful because they don't have tight enough integration with their respective medical schools. Columbia's program is in nutrition for god sakes. This reason alone is why Georgetown is so respected and Penn isn't.

That's not why they're not successful. Both of those are career changer postbacs, first of all (except for Penn Special Sciences) so they wouldn't need close association with their med schools. The top postbac programs (Scripps, BM, Goucher, all three of which have sent 100% of their students to medical school over the past 5 years) aren't associated with their own medical school at all. The problem with a lot of these programs is that they made just to make money and aren't selective. The average applicant to Scripps/BM/Goucher has better stats than the average med school matriculant, so it's not THAT surprising that they would get into med school.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

And I assume you went to Georgetown SMP?

 

[drizzt3117]

And I assume you went to Georgetown SMP?

Nope. I didn't do a SMP at all. I was a career changer and attended one of the top formal programs. I've also been involved with admissions at the postbac and med school level and have a lot of experience with the process.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Nope. I didn't do a SMP at all. I was a career changer and attended one of the top formal programs. I've also been involved with admissions at the postbac and med school level and have a lot of experience with the process.

I'm glad we have motivated people like you entering medicine. Congratulations on your admission to medical school and may you find your success in whatever field you so choose.

I'm also glad you have chosen to spend some of your time with the younger pre-meds and endow them with your wisdom of the process. It is nice to have a mentor that can help a person avoid pitfalls in the admissions cycle which could cost the system a great doctor.

But perhaps you could concede that every medical school is different in philosophy and what they are looking for in terms of a candidate?

 

[drizzt3117]

But perhaps you could concede that every medical school is different in philosophy and what they are looking for in terms of a candidate?

I think that there are small degrees of differences between what schools are interested in. Some are going to emphasize primary care, others are more research oriented, some schools have a strong infectious disease focus, others are interested in global health. That said, all medical schools in the country have the same mission, to train future physicians to deal with health issues in the US, and to that end, as much as medical education is homogenized, so is the medical admissions process. Certainly there is going to be some degree of variability as it's a subjective process, but I don't see the prototypical premed being a minority any time soon, for better or for worse.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I think that there are small degrees of differences between what schools are interested in. Some are going to emphasize primary care, others are more research oriented, some schools have a strong infectious disease focus, others are interested in global health. That said, all medical schools in the country have the same mission, to train future physicians to deal with health issues in the US, and to that end, as much as medical education is homogenized, so is the medical admissions process. Certainly there is going to be some degree of variability as it's a subjective process, but I don't see the prototypical premed being a minority any time soon, for better or for worse.

You know five years ago I would have agreed with you, but I'm lately seeing tons of focus upon better balanced candidates. There is a strong perception, at least at UCDHSC SOM, that a bachelor's degree with a good gpa isn't a really good metric anymore. To be fair, premed programs have changed to this accommodate paradigm shift, but less and less people are getting in on their first try. You could be right that medical schools shift to the specialty side of medicine while to DOs take on the primary care. I honestly don't know how it's going to turn out.

And remember that you're forgetting the many foreign medical school graduates who practice in the United States. Our system is a very diverse ecosystem.

 

[halekulani]

Personally, post-bac or SMP does not make any difference to me because they have the same end goal. that is to make you a good candidate for medical school.

it makes a huge difference if you're applying.

you need to have certain pre-reqs for each. this isn't one size fits all, hence the usage of further subdivisions for clarifications. in addition, schools may have a post-bacc AND an SMP (i know georgetown does), so it would be way confusing to have both "post-bacc" and "smp" as equals.