What are docs who can't find jobs doing nowadays?

[Backpack234]

We've all heard about all the doom and gloom. Residents looking for jobs. And so on. But what are actual docs getting laid off from their jobs due to covid or whatever else actually doing with such a poor market out there?

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[Doc Doc Doc Goose]

It appears they are wrapped up in looking for jobs.

 

[hihimedmed]

What are the typical hourly rates now looking like for new jobs?

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

It’s not just EM that’s feeling the squeeze. My wife is a resident in a surgical sub.

She got a recruiting email the other day for our city (Miami) offering a whopping $170,000/year W2, and that included Q5 call.

For those playing along at home, that’s an hourly rate of $62/hour. For a surgeon.

The Florida expansion has started hitting fields besides EM.

 

[Frazier]

It’s not just EM that’s feeling the squeeze. My wife is a resident in a surgical sub.

She got a recruiting email the other day for our city (Miami) offering a whopping $170,000/year W2, and that included Q5 call.

For those playing along at home, that’s an hourly rate of $62/hour. For a surgeon.

The Florida expansion has started hitting fields besides EM.

That's quite impressive figure

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

It’s not just EM that’s feeling the squeeze. My wife is a resident in a surgical sub.

She got a recruiting email the other day for our city (Miami) offering a whopping $170,000/year W2, and that included Q5 call.

For those playing along at home, that’s an hourly rate of $62/hour. For a surgeon.

The Florida expansion has started hitting fields besides EM.

Did they think she was peds ob or something? That’s pretty low.

I get that the pandemic is causing a lot of issues, but I wouldn’t expect birth rates to drop. Maybe the gyn side isn’t getting them $?

 

[DocEspana]

It’s not just EM that’s feeling the squeeze. My wife is a resident in a surgical sub.

She got a recruiting email the other day for our city (Miami) offering a whopping $170,000/year W2, and that included Q5 call.

For those playing along at home, that’s an hourly rate of $62/hour. For a surgeon.

The Florida expansion has started hitting fields besides EM.

haha I'm miami too and covid has made me go from the "aloof about the rules doctor eating a full meal at his computer" to "bends over backwards to please the director and follow stupid pointless rules doctor" because I have seen what the job market around here looks like lately and I want my director to love me forever.

It hurts my soul but its great for the future of my wallet. If youre a PGY-1, you hopefully will have enough time to wait out this squeeze. I dont suspect it will be over in a year, but maybe in 2-3.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Did they think she was peds ob or something? That’s pretty low.

I get that the pandemic is causing a lot of issues, but I wouldn’t expect birth rates to drop. Maybe the gyn side isn’t getting them $?

That was for Gyn. The OB volume is more or less the same but the elective gyn procedures, where a lot of $$$ are made, have fallen off a cliff.

Funny, we’ve been saying fibroids aren’t emergencies for years, it seems patients may finally be taking that advice to heart and trying that magical ibuprofen that “doesn’t do anything for them.”

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

haha I'm miami too and covid has made me go from the "aloof about the rules doctor eating a full meal at his computer" to "bends over backwards to please the director and follow stupid pointless rules doctor" because I have seen what the job market around here looks like lately and I want my director to love me forever.

It hurts my soul but its great for the future of my wallet. If youre a PGY-1, you hopefully will have enough time to wait out this squeeze. I dont suspect it will be over in a year, but maybe in 2-3.

Yea man, don’t tempt fate. Unless you want to spend your prime earning years in *shivers* Ocala.

 

[Rekt]

haha I'm miami too and covid has made me go from the "aloof about the rules doctor eating a full meal at his computer" to "bends over backwards to please the director and follow stupid pointless rules doctor" because I have seen what the job market around here looks like lately and I want my director to love me forever.

It hurts my soul but its great for the future of my wallet. If youre a PGY-1, you hopefully will have enough time to wait out this squeeze. I dont suspect it will be over in a year, but maybe in 2-3.

I must have missed it, but are residencies closing? Because right now we're putting out a surplus of around 750-1000 EM docs a year which is only increasing. Covid is a front man which has perfect timing for the nadir new programs putting their grads into the market.

I'd expect a normalization of pay within the next five years around 130-140hr for desirable places and 160-170hr for non desirable/hours from an airport. SDGs will have protected pay, but essentially will be impossible to get in with.

 

[turkeyjerky]

I must have missed it, but are residencies closing? Because right now we're putting out a surplus of around 750-1000 EM docs a year which is only increasing. Covid is a front man which has perfect timing for the nadir new programs putting their grads into the market.

I'd expect a normalization of pay within the next five years around 130-140hr for desirable places and 160-170hr for non desirable/hours from an airport. SDGs will have protected pay, but essentially will be impossible to get in with.

Yeah, I agree with this. Keep in mind the pay cuts will be masked by "transitioning" to a "RVU-based model" which is going to become "industry standard" but "most providers will actually see an increase in average reimbursement". Then they slowly cut the formula over 2-3 years. This combined with an increase in LLP coverage.

I do think there won't be quite as dire a shortage of jobs in a year or two though, they'll just suck. 2020 was definitely an inflection point that seems to have tilted the market in favor of the CMG and Hospital overlords.

As to the OP. I more or less lost my job(s) over the past 9 months. I was prn at a number of sites for the past year and got phased out 'milton from office space' style over the past 9 months. Luckily I saw the writing on the wall last summer and we're geographically flexible, so I got a new job and moved across the country.

 

[Backpack234]

As to the OP. I more or less lost my job(s) over the past 9 months. I was prn at a number of sites for the past year and got phased out 'milton from office space' style over the past 9 months. Luckily I saw the writing on the wall last summer and we're geographically flexible, so I got a new job and moved across the country.

Sorry to hear that! But it's good that you got in last summer. We have residents graduating this July and way more than usual are going to fellowship since there simply aren't any jobs within an hour of the city, and fewer and fewer further out than that. I'm afraid that the era of "Most docs work at their first gig for 2-3 years before moving" isn't really valid anymore.

It's only inevitabale though that someone wants a change or something happens where the employer cuts hours, eventually leaving tens, then hundreds or doctors simply without jobs. I think we might have a short burst of jobs open up in the next 1-2 years when the covid hiring freezes end, but it'll be a flash in the pan when they immediately get filled by the hundred people whose CVs are already sitting in file cabinets.

Maybe I should have made another thread, but what alternatives are there for a 5th year attending who cant find a job? Take a research year and apply to fellowship? Learn to code?

 

[DocEspana]

I must have missed it, but are residencies closing? Because right now we're putting out a surplus of around 750-1000 EM docs a year which is only increasing. Covid is a front man which has perfect timing for the nadir new programs putting their grads into the market.

I'd expect a normalization of pay within the next five years around 130-140hr for desirable places and 160-170hr for non desirable/hours from an airport. SDGs will have protected pay, but essentially will be impossible to get in with.

Poppycock.

Pay is already rising even as covid is still going. The rise may not go back to the level it once was at, but it never dropped anywhere close to 130/140 an hour in the lowest of low markets (presuming full time and normal volume) and it's already risen well above where it was back in July. market flooding will be an issue, but it's not going to be an issue at the level people are predicting.

But that said, I am by nature a contrarian. What you can't simply apply supply and demand to a skilled labor field. I think we should both hope that I'm right.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Sorry to hear that! But it's good that you got in last summer. We have residents graduating this July and way more than usual are going to fellowship since there simply aren't any jobs within an hour of the city, and fewer and fewer further out than that. I'm afraid that the era of "Most docs work at their first gig for 2-3 years before moving" isn't really valid anymore.

It's only inevitabale though that someone wants a change or something happens where the employer cuts hours, eventually leaving tens, then hundreds or doctors simply without jobs. I think we might have a short burst of jobs open up in the next 1-2 years when the covid hiring freezes end, but it'll be a flash in the pan when they immediately get filled by the hundred people whose CVs are already sitting in file cabinets.

Maybe I should have made another thread, but what alternatives are there for a 5th year attending who cant find a job? Take a research year and apply to fellowship? Learn to code?

Yeah, the fact that I was looking off cycle and so not really competing with the flood of applicants probably helped me out a bit. There'll always be some flux in the job market due to people moving, retiring, etc but I have a feeling that the job search is gonna be much more lengthy than it has been in the past (where you could basically get a job within 1-2 weeks and the major wait was for hospital credentialing).

I have no idea what someone does if they're actually unemployed. Maybe work urgent care? I was honestly more worried about the potential resume gap than I was about the loss of income.

Poppycock.

Pay is already rising even as covid is still going. The rise may not go back to the level it once was at, but it never dropped anywhere close to 130/140 an hour in the lowest of low markets (presuming full time and normal volume) and it's already risen well above where it was back in July. market flooding will be an issue, but it's not going to be an issue at the level people are predicting.

But that said, I am by nature a contrarian. What you can't simply apply supply and demand to a skilled labor field. I think we should both hope that I'm right.

I hope you're right. But I think your analysis is omitting some other factors such as downward pressure on reimbursement from payors, the end of hospital subsidies, increased usage of midlevels, etc. I guess 130-140 an hour is probably at the low end of possible (but maybe not unlikely when inflation-adjusted?).

Weren't you posting recently about how you have the best job in your city? Maybe you have rose-colored glasses or are divorced from some of the more negative experiences out there.

 

[DocEspana]

Yeah, the fact that I was looking off cycle and so not really competing with the flood of applicants probably helped me out a bit. There'll always be some flux in the job market due to people moving, retiring, etc but I have a feeling that the job search is gonna be much more lengthy than it has been in the past (where you could basically get a job within 1-2 weeks and the major wait was for hospital credentialing).

I have no idea what someone does if they're actually unemployed. Maybe work urgent care? I was honestly more worried about the potential resume gap than I was about the loss of income.



I hope you're right. But I think your analysis is omitting some other factors such as downward pressure on reimbursement from payors, the end of hospital subsidies, increased usage of midlevels, etc. I guess 130-140 an hour is probably at the low end of possible (but maybe not unlikely when inflation-adjusted?).

Weren't you posting recently about how you have the best job in your city? Maybe you have rose-colored glasses or are divorced from some of the more negative experiences out there.

I do have the best job in my city. but we also get very limited hours so we are all constantly looking for more hours elsewhere. And i generally do travel medicine as my backup since I used to do it exclusively and have lots of good connections still. So I have a good grip on rates for anywhere south of orlando in FL, in NYC, Hudson Valley NY, North Jersey, Connecticut, Baltimore and its western suburbs, southern ohio, and western west virginia. Obviously a very random sampling that is not going to be indicative of everywhere but also has a mixture of city, suburb, and rural so its at least "sort of grounded in realities of a lot of areas". also I have far too many licenses haha.

but definitely its complex. I wont deny that. I had started to write something about how need to imrpove/replace staffing ESPECIALLY in the "bad" CMG model requires price hikes over time - but its complex and I dont have the time (on shift. sorry.) to delve into it. But again, maybe im optimistic and overvaluing this? I dont think so though

edit: I guess it brings up the argument of does travel medicine pay different than just being employed there? Yes and no. It does, but I generally knew how much the local guys got (and it usually wasnt much different than me, it was just often more RVU driven than my flat rate).

 

[Old_Mil]

That was for Gyn. The OB volume is more or less the same but the elective gyn procedures, where a lot of $$$ are made, have fallen off a cliff.

Funny, we’ve been saying fibroids aren’t emergencies for years, it seems patients may finally be taking that advice to heart and trying that magical ibuprofen that “doesn’t do anything for them.”

... And don't forget there's at least a nine month lag time in ON volume falling off a cliff.