What are my realistic chances to match in top 20-30 IM residency programs?

[pr4227]

Hello,

I am new to SDN. I am an IMG from India, GC holder who will be applying to IM this fall.

My profile: 261 (step 1), 272 (Step 2), CS pass, Step 3 not taken, 2017 grad, 3 months research elective at Hopkins with a publication pending to the journal of the AHA, 2 other publications, 1 poster and 1 oral presentation. 5 months USCE including 2 months sub-I at Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic and NIH. 5 US LORs. Will be working at NIH as a research assistant during the match season. Not that it matters, but graduated top of my class as well as top of my university (with ~2000 med students).

I want to apply to top programs like Hopkins and Penn, mainly to do well in the fellowship match (cards vs pulm critical care).

I want to know my realistic chances of applying to top programs, many of which take 0-2 IMGs per year at best. I know that Cleveland Clinic is one of the few top programs that match IMGs frequency and I did like their program structure and environment. But what about the other places.

Another question I want to ask is that if we are selected for interview at any program, do we get a reasonably fair shot to compete with the other candidates? I know interview is crucial. My point is if an IMG does get selected for an interview in a top program, will we given serious consideration by the program.

Thank you.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rd31]

It is definitely worth applying with your credentials.. MGH, from my recollection, also takes highly qualified FMGs relatively commonly.

 

[Bobblehead]

A green card will put you ahead of others who may need a visa.

 

[Animalcules]

Hello,

I am new to SDN. I am an IMG from India, GC holder who will be applying to IM this fall.

My profile: 261 (step 1), 272 (Step 2), CS pass, Step 3 not taken, 2017 grad, 3 months research elective at Hopkins with a publication pending to the journal of the AHA, 2 other publications, 1 poster and 1 oral presentation. 5 months USCE including 2 months sub-I at Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic and NIH. 5 US LORs. Will be working at NIH as a research assistant during the match season. Not that it matters, but graduated top of my class as well as top of my university (with ~2000 med students).

I want to apply to top programs like Hopkins and Penn, mainly to do well in the fellowship match (cards vs pulm critical care).

I want to know my realistic chances of applying to top programs, many of which take 0-2 IMGs per year at best. I know that Cleveland Clinic is one of the few top programs that match IMGs frequency and I did like their program structure and environment. But what about the other places.

Another question I want to ask is that if we are selected for interview at any program, do we get a reasonably fair shot to compete with the other candidates? I know interview is crucial. My point is if an IMG does get selected for an interview in a top program, will we given serious consideration by the program.

Thank you.

Some questions:
Are you doing clinical research or basic science? Since you have a pub after 3 months elective, I assume clinical. Do you have any good research published as a first author? Is your research mentor well connected and willing to go to bat for you?

What you can do:
- make sure you are ECFMG certified
- take Step 3 so you have it before ROL, you need to eliminate any possible concerns upfront
- network and have you research mentor help you if they have connections

Now to your question:
If you want to match top 20-30, that should be possible if you play your cards right. There are no guarantees. Reading your thread, however, you seem to be looking at top 5 programs. In general, you will be given full consideration at places that you interview. That said, if you botch the interview or your English is subpar, game over. Hopkins and Penn are not FMG friendly places in general. You may get an interview if you mentor pushes, but they are very hesitant to rank applicants that they have not seen clinically. Don't get too excited. Your best chance may be places like UTSW, Mayo, CCF, Yale.

 

[nemo123]

Cornell is another program that is IMG friendly and often takes a decent number of IMGs each year.

 

[JLC]

Hopkins does take occasional IMGs however typically they're from foreign schools with a US affiliation. Penn almost never takes IMG. MGH does take exceptional IMGs. Mayo and CCF are solid IM programs that take IMG.

 

[Animalcules]

Hopkins does take occasional IMGs however typically they're from foreign schools with a US affiliation. Penn almost never takes IMG. MGH does take exceptional IMGs. Mayo and CCF are solid IM programs that take IMG.

Hopkins 0-1 per year
MGH 3-4 per year
Mayo and CCF no idea
UPMC has a track for FMG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Instatewaiter]

Hello,

I am new to SDN. I am an IMG from India, GC holder who will be applying to IM this fall.

My profile: 261 (step 1), 272 (Step 2), CS pass, Step 3 not taken, 2017 grad, 3 months research elective at Hopkins with a publication pending to the journal of the AHA, 2 other publications, 1 poster and 1 oral presentation. 5 months USCE including 2 months sub-I at Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic and NIH. 5 US LORs. Will be working at NIH as a research assistant during the match season. Not that it matters, but graduated top of my class as well as top of my university (with ~2000 med students).

I want to apply to top programs like Hopkins and Penn, mainly to do well in the fellowship match (cards vs pulm critical care).

I want to know my realistic chances of applying to top programs, many of which take 0-2 IMGs per year at best. I know that Cleveland Clinic is one of the few top programs that match IMGs frequency and I did like their program structure and environment. But what about the other places.

Another question I want to ask is that if we are selected for interview at any program, do we get a reasonably fair shot to compete with the other candidates? I know interview is crucial. My point is if an IMG does get selected for an interview in a top program, will we given serious consideration by the program.

Thank you.

Most would not consider CCF a top residency.

Hopkins has taken people from UK/Ireland, Brazil, Canada while I was there. Few top programs have taken people from India. This is from a variety of reasons most notably because it is hard to quantify quality of clinical training (esp since you can only do observerships) and because may from overseas take 6 months to study for Step 1 as opposed to 3-4 weeks in the states. You are not on equal footing. Sorry.

 

[pr4227]

It is definitely worth applying with your credentials.. MGH, from my recollection, also takes highly qualified FMGs relatively commonly.

Thank you. Will keep in mind.

 

[pr4227]

Some questions:
Are you doing clinical research or basic science? Since you have a pub after 3 months elective, I assume clinical. Do you have any good research published as a first author? Is your research mentor well connected and willing to go to bat for you?

What you can do:
- make sure you are ECFMG certified
- take Step 3 so you have it before ROL, you need to eliminate any possible concerns upfront
- network and have you research mentor help you if they have connections

Now to your question:
If you want to match top 20-30, that should be possible if you play your cards right. There are no guarantees. Reading your thread, however, you seem to be looking at top 5 programs. In general, you will be given full consideration at places that you interview. That said, if you botch the interview or your English is subpar, game over. Hopkins and Penn are not FMG friendly places in general. You may get an interview if you mentor pushes, but they are very hesitant to rank applicants that they have not seen clinically. Don't get too excited. Your best chance may be places like UTSW, Mayo, CCF, Yale.

Thank you so much. I will keep this in mind. My asking mentors to help with networking, you mean to try to get them to email program directors for you? Do you have any suggestions for interview prep?

 

[pr4227]

Most would not consider CCF a top residency.

Hopkins has taken people from UK/Ireland, Brazil, Canada while I was there. Few top programs have taken people from India. This is from a variety of reasons most notably because it is hard to quantify quality of clinical training (esp since you can only do observerships) and because may from overseas take 6 months to study for Step 1 as opposed to 3-4 weeks in the states. You are not on equal footing. Sorry.

Thanks for the reply. I have to say I really liked CCF when I did rotations there. I wonder why their IM program has such a bad rep. Their hospital recently was ranked 2nd best in the nation again, #1 in cards and #2 in GI again, although, I do not think the US news ranking is that reliable.

 

[pr4227]

Hopkins 0-1 per year
MGH 3-4 per year
Mayo and CCF no idea
UPMC has a track for FMG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you. UPMC international scholars track sounds amazing but likely out of my reach.

 

[pr4227]

Hopkins does take occasional IMGs however typically they're from foreign schools with a US affiliation. Penn almost never takes IMG. MGH does take exceptional IMGs. Mayo and CCF are solid IM programs that take IMG.

Thanks. Will keep in mind. Any tips on interview prep?

 

[pr4227]

Cornell is another program that is IMG friendly and often takes a decent number of IMGs each year.

Yup. I have heard good things about their program. Thanks

 

[Psai]

Thanks for the reply. I have to say I really liked CCF when I did rotations there. I wonder why their IM program has such a bad rep. Their hospital recently was ranked 2nd best in the nation again, #1 in cards and #2 in GI again, although, I do not think the US news ranking is that reliable.

Their medicine residents are mostly foreign and clinically weak. It is a fellow/attending run hospital. us news rankings are complete nonsense.

 

[CubsFan314]

The US News rankings for hospitals are very useful when looking at patient care (they look at actual mortality and patient safety outcomes.) However a top hospital doesn't necessarily have a top IM residency training program. Doximity does rank IM residency programs, but it's entirely on reputation without any consideration of the actual quality of the program. That being said, CCF has an excellent hospital and (from what I hear) a great IM program but their IM program seems to have a difficult time recruiting the top trainees to their program. Tough to know if it's the chicken or the egg: do top students rank it lower because the reputation is worse than other programs they are interviewing at (#16 on Doximity's list) or is it's reputation worse because top students rank it lower?

 

[Psai]

Stop spreading misinformation. The usnews rankings are completely useless. The Brigham was 3rd last year and they didn't make the honor roll this year. Do you honestly think that their patient care changed that much in the past 12 months or that they are no longer a top hospital?

Doximity is relatively new, it's been around for maybe 2 years. It has no bearing on a program's reputation. CCF does not have a great im program and they've had a poor reputation before doximity even thought about making their list.

 

[MyTachyBradyHeart]

The US News rankings for hospitals are very useful when looking at patient care (they look at actual mortality and patient safety outcomes.) However a top hospital doesn't necessarily have a top IM residency training program. Doximity does rank IM residency programs, but it's entirely on reputation without any consideration of the actual quality of the program. That being said, CCF has an excellent hospital and (from what I hear) a great IM program but their IM program seems to have a difficult time recruiting the top trainees to their program. Tough to know if it's the chicken or the egg: do top students rank it lower because the reputation is worse than other programs they are interviewing at (#16 on Doximity's list) or is it's reputation worse because top students rank it lower?

Sorry, US news rankings and Doximity are both pretty rubbish. As a simple example, why do MICUs at academic programs have such a high mortality? Because super sick patients are transferred there die and residents are super busy and tend to do a horrible job documenting exactly how sick patients are (i.e. Dyspnea vs. hypoxic respiratory failure secondary to acute PE, with cor pulmonale). Does not reflect the level of patient care nor the strength of the training program. On the other hand, Doximity rankings are heavily buffed by voting and any program can boost their rankings if a bunch of alumni happened to vote on the website in any given year.

CCF is a solid mid-tier program, 2nd best IM program in Cleveland (obviously, their subspecialty is one of the best in the country). Far, far away from being #16 in the country. It's reputation is consistent with the training you will get: not that busy clinically on teaching services and not as much autonomy and thus you rely less on your own clinical acumen and more on consultant recommendations.

Hello,

I am new to SDN. I am an IMG from India, GC holder who will be applying to IM this fall.

My profile: 261 (step 1), 272 (Step 2), CS pass, Step 3 not taken, 2017 grad, 3 months research elective at Hopkins with a publication pending to the journal of the AHA, 2 other publications, 1 poster and 1 oral presentation. 5 months USCE including 2 months sub-I at Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic and NIH. 5 US LORs. Will be working at NIH as a research assistant during the match season. Not that it matters, but graduated top of my class as well as top of my university (with ~2000 med students).

Op, you will be given full consideration if you are offered an interview. Your best bet at cracking into top 4 is at Hopkins obviously; they occasionally will take very well qualified international applicants and you have connections there already. It would help tremendously if your mentors there are on the selection committee or are willing to advocate for you on your behalf. Unfortunately, you will be competing against other IMGs with even better publication record and PhD to boot. My gut instinct is you will get 6-8 interviews at Top 30 programs and will match at one of them. Just make sure you have a solid list of 8-10 back ups at upper-mid tier programs. Good luck!

 

[CubsFan314]

Stop spreading misinformation. The usnews rankings are completely useless. The Brigham was 3rd last year and they didn't make the honor roll this year. Do you honestly think that their patient care changed that much in the past 12 months or that they are no longer a top hospital?

Doximity is relatively new, it's been around for maybe 2 years. It has no bearing on a program's reputation. CCF does not have a great im program and they've had a poor reputation before doximity even thought about making their list.

Although "misinformation" and "completely useless" seem a bit over the top, I appreciate the criticism of my comment, which, in hindsight, certainly could have been better worded to provide clarity. Allow me to try again.

Doximity's ranking methodology was intended to assess "reputation" by getting Doximity users to vote on programs, but this methodology is prone to programs filling the ballot box with alumni votes to boost their ratings in hopes of improving their recruitment. Sure enough, there have been publications that show that medical students are influenced by Doximity rankings when it comes to applying or ranking programs. What may have started in 2014 as a way to assess the reputation of programs, very well may be at least partially hijacked by institutions trying to game the system, making an inherently flawed methodology even more suspect. As far as I can tell, there aren't any residency ranking that actually look at any objective data. Although if one existed, I'm not sure what that ranking would mean. I would look for things such as board pass rate, publications, fellowship match of residents, whereas someone else may be interested in outpatient practice metrics of graduates or something else.

US News Rankings are for hospitals and the one for residencies is just a copy of the Doximity rankings discussed above. Although the US News Hospital rankings were initially largely reputation based, but now are largely based on objective patient outcomes and safety data. They do factor in for severity of illness, which is why academic medical institutions, rightfully, are pretty much the only ones have have ever been in the honor roll top 20. The methodology is publically available (see link below), but nonetheless the rankings have nothing to do with the quality of the residency programs and very well may be "completely useless" when deciding what residency programs to look at.

http://health.usnews.com/health-car...es/faq-how-and-why-we-rank-and-rate-hospitals

I was not aware that Brigham and Women's fell out of the Honor Roll this year. There is a nice article from the Boston Globe about that. Looks like it's related to changes in metrics used for ranking where they rank very highly in some safety measures that were dropped in their rankings. In some ways, this doesn't matter to me as an applicant, as I fully intend to apply to their IM program and would love to match there.

Brigham and Women’s falls out of top 20 in US News hospital rankings - The Boston Globe

Sorry for the extended post, but I wanted to clarify my prior post, lest I be accused of propagating "fake news".