What are the Best Gen Surgery Programs?

[Mango]

So my roommate and I are filling out our ERAS applications for General surgery (Yes, ENT is out, I hated it), and we need help picking programs. We need some suggestions that fit the following criteria:

1. Strong Program (we both want fellowships)
2. Not rediculosly malignant
3. East of say... Colorado (we're Midwesterners with family ties)

Any and all help will be hugely appreciated!

Also, I will start the list:

1. U. of Cincinnati: a top ten program with a strong chair, a great environment, tons of $$, innovations abounding, and non-malignant.

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[ArrogantSurgeon]

MGH
Brigham
Duke
UPenn
Yale
Cornell
and of course U of Chicago

 

[maxheadroom]

Colorado
Minnesota
Mayo
UAB
Baylor
UT Southwestern
Ochsner
Cleveland Clinic
Northwestern
UNC-Chapel Hill
UVA
WashU
Columbia (starting to pull ahead of Cornell, from what I've heard)
Hopkins (of course)
U Florida
Louisville (I hear Polk is kind of mean; ask Ollie for info)
Michigan
Kentucky (diamond in the rough)

Yale??? They're just coming off suspension. While they might be getting their shop in order, I wouldn't bet my career on their ability to maintain stability in a program that's been in disarray for more than a decade. But hey, maybe you're a gambler.

 

[Mango]

Yeah, I really was considering Cornell and Columbia, but how can you live in NYC on a resident's salary?

Also, any programs in Pittsburg?? Kimberly, what are your thoughts on your program, and others in the city?

And what programs in Boston other than MGH?

 

[maxheadroom]

AS already mentioned Brigham in Boston. That's probably it. BID is supposedly on the rebound, but there are lots of better programs . . .

I think that Columbia and Cornell have subsidized housing available for their residents. Cornell's is right across from the hospital; Columbia's is scattered around/in Harlem. You can live in NYC on a resident's salary, but money will be tight. My friend is at Columbia and he only makes $3K more than me (I'm in a very affordable town).

Pittsburgh . . . U Pitt is pretty highly regarded. Starzl was there (still is, I think). U Penn is said to be horribly malignant.

Wisconsin might be worth considering. I've heard great things about their PRS, but nothing in particular about GenSurg.

If you'll extend your range a bit, Utah is outstanding. Southwest flies there, so you can get home cheap. Great faculty, cheap town, and you're 30 minutes from Alta, Brighton, Snowbird, and a whole lot more. Residents are able to buy a cheap season pass to Snowbird/Alta and they said that they actually have time to use it!

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

I'll also mention U of South Florida since we're taliking eastern states. It is reputed to be an excellent GenSurg program.

Also, Stamford (in Connecticut) has a well-regarded GenSurg program that has close ties with Columbia. Plus Stamford, CT is as close to perfect as you're going to get for raising a family.

I've heard mixed reviews about Brown U.

Darthmouth also comes to mind, but I have heard absolutely nothing about its GenSurg program.

 

[maxheadroom]

I've heard mixed reviews on USF. They had some pretty major faculty instability a few years ago and are still recovering. While Moffitt is an exceptional SurgOnc fellowship, I've been told that the residents on SurgOnc don't get to see much on the big cases. It would be nice to live in Tampa, though . . .

 

[smithani]

I would think Vanderbilt should be added to the list.

Spent a month in Cincinnati as a Sub-I last year. Couldn't agree more with the first post. Chair is awesome. Don't forget the residents there are the nicest bunch of guys you will ever meet.

Good luck

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hmmm...not sure either Duke or Penn would meet the OPs qualifications. Both are widely regarded as malignant (and this also comes from people I've known at both).

Penn State has a pretty good rep as far as malignancy and fellowship placement goes. Of course, the environment is not for everyone although I certainly find everything I need here.

Otherwise, "in town" is Pinnacle Health - a community program. They also have placed some people into fellowships like Surg Onc and Laparoscopic over the years but are more focused on producing community general surgeons. Except for their M&M, which is much more malignant than Hershey's, its a pretty low kep program.

In PA, I would agree that Pitt has a good reputation and the city has come a long way in the arts and other things to do over the years. Its certainly worth a look as is Louisville (Polk is pretty tough, but droliver could give you more info if you can't find it after searching for info on this program), Delaware (for a community program), Cleveland, and many of the others listed here.

 

[Blade28]

I'm also considering Boston programs...why nowhere besides Brigham and MGH? What about all the other hospitals?

 

[maxheadroom]

Didn't really look at others besides MGH and the Brig. There are probably some good programs besides these two, but when two of the best surgical residencies in the world are in your town, you can't expect much recognition.

Definitely add Vandy to the list. Don't know how I forgot them. One of the few GenSurg programs that I really liked. Great experience, pretty good atmosphere. Nashville is a good town.

 

[Pilot Doc]

As of my interview last year, Hiram Polk had set a definite retirement date. I think it was January 1, 2005.

 

[Mango]

Thanks for all the replies. And smithani, glad to hear you liked Cincy too. I pretty much love our program, but with potentially only one, MAYBE two spots going to UC grads this year, plus the fact that no less than 8 people in my class want a spot here, it's going to be tough. I'm not worried about grades or score, so much as I am worrying about lack of research. What a bitch, huh?

So I'm hearing that UAB is a great program? I had no idea. And I think Duke is coming off my list. Everyone agrees it's malignant as all get-out. Is UPenn really that bad? And any opinions on UNC? How about Indiana, I heard some good things about their chair today.

Thanks again guys. this is a great help!

 

[droliver]

Originally posted by Mango
So I'm hearing that UAB is a great program? I had no idea. And I think Duke is coming off my list. Everyone agrees it's malignant as all get-out. Is UPenn really that bad? And any opinions on UNC? How about Indiana, I heard some good things about their chair today.

UAB (along with Emory) have been the strongest academic programs in the deep south for decades. UAB had a reputation as a real meat-grinder and brutal program for a long,long time. There has been a real quick rehab of this reputation since Dr. Bland return there 5 years ago & it gets great word of mouth on the interview trail now. I have several friends who finished there in the last few years who liked their training but were pretty beat down by the end (most of their time was during the previous "regime"). I also have 3 former students there now who are thriving & love it I hear via the grapevine.

For what its worth your school (UCinn) & the training program I just finished (Louisville) were included in the same breath as UAB when people used to talk about the roughest programs alive. For what its worth I (and my 7 other chiefs who finshed in June) absolutely loved our program & several of us are likely to return as faculty after fellowships. We currently have a PGY-2 from UC who rotated with last year when I was a chief & earlier this month on Plastic Surgery with whom I could refer you to if you'd like to compare the cultures at our two programs. One of your PGY-5's Andy Knott was my junior Student in medical school when I was a fourth year student doing senior surgery @ South Alabama a lifetime ago. Great Guy!

Duke & Penn are very high-powered & traditional programs with hierarchies during your residency that a lot of people are turned off by. I think thats where their reputation comes from more then that they're that different then many of the big University programs. You have to know what you sign up for when you want to go to one of those places & not be disappointed with the reality.

 

[Mango]

Originally posted by droliver
For what its worth your school (UCinn) & the training program I just finished (Louisville) were included in the same breath as UAB when people used to talk about the roughest programs alive.

Yeah, from what I've heard, things were very different around here before 'ole Joe left town. Dr. Mathews has changed the entire mood of the program. He's awesome.

Keep the recommendations coming, this is good stuff!

Any thoughts on IU, OSU, Cleveland Clinic, or Case?

 

[triathlete411]

UNC is a fantastic program! Non-malignant, excellent training. Attendings are great. Residents are friends in and out of the hospital. Chapel Hill is a nice place to live. Graduating residents do well in matching into fellowships if they want (have had matches in pediatric fellowships for the last several years) and are not frowned upon if they choose to go directly into general surgery.

If you have any more specific questions, feel free to pm me.

 

[daredevil_2010]

It all depends on what you want out of life. To just go to a program just for the name sake is absurb... unless that's what's important to you. Remember you're going to spend at least five year there. They will take away your life and your youth.

Here are my top programs in the SE United States (no real order):

Wake Forest
UNC
UAB
UF
MUSC
Miami
Duke
Emory


All these are fine programs. Clearly, programs such as Duke and UAB have their hard nose reps. But if this is what you want... that's your choice. Also, which programs are 80 hour complient? Which ones are in great cities? Trust me, Chapel Hill is nice, but you can pretty much see the whole "town" in one day. Not much to do. Miami is a great city, but the hospital is public and super busy. UF has a new chairman from UNC, but do you really want to be in a college town?

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

The best program is the one that ranked me high enough to match. LOL....

Seriously, I still don't know the answer to this question. I would say "the best" are ones where:

1. Doors are open for fellowships and community practice.
2. Residents are really satisfied with their choice to be there.
3. The PD and chair give a crap about the residents education.
4. Have oodles of OR experience.
5. Are filled with education-oriented, non-beligerent individuals.

Keep in mind that many large universities- especially ones that are the cities main indigent hospital:

1. Have marginal (at best) staff, facilities, and communication. If you are the sort that worries about your patients, you will find yourself having to backtrack through EVERYTHING (orders that are not followed, tests not performed.)

2. It may be a big-name program but if there are fellows in nearly every department, get ready to watch your senior residents being the human retractor in an 8-hour case.

And at interviews:
1. No resident who doesn't have a secret wish to be fired is going to hang around at the interview luncheon and tell you that the program is some malignant place that scoffs at the 80 hour workweek and could care less about your education.

This is why I think that doing an externship is invaluable. It is easy to idealize something on paper or through a 1-2 day interview and have it be a complete different ball of wax once you are there. I did a few externships and I was very happy that I did- I returned from the programs with very different opinions than what I had when I arrived.

Also, though sometimes medical student advice is not seen as very valuable, students may be more likely to be able to tell you things such as how abrasive the attendings generally are/ are the residents happy/ what is the environment really like. Especially if they do not want to stay there, they have nothing to lose by being honest. Some of the most accurate advice I got was from other students.

Just had to throw my 2 cents in; these are things I would do if I were doing it over again.

good luck

 

[dr.evil]

I love Foxxy's explanation of "the best program".

1. Doors are open for fellowships and community practice.

2. Residents are really satisfied with their choice to be there.
By far the #1 thing to be concerned with are your future comrades. 5 years is a long, long time.

3. The PD and chair give a crap about the residents education. AMEN! I can't tell you how important this has been over the last year with all the 80 hour work week changes

4. Have oodles of OR experience.
Not only should you be in the OR a lot, you should be operating a lot. I looked at a lot of programs where they did these enormous cases on a regular basis. The problem was that the general surgery residents watched while the fellows/attendings did the cases. Would you rather see 15 Whipples or do 3? Always go with the latter on big cases. It's just different when it's your hands having to do the dissection. I chose to go somewhere with a ton of bread & butter/laparoscopic cases with a good mix of Whipples, Hepatic resections, esophagectomies, and gigantic laparoscopic cases.

5. Are filled with education-oriented, non-beligerent individuals.
Nice people are easier to work with/for than a**holes.

 

[maxheadroom]

I am sooooooo glad that I don't have to go through residency applications and interviews again. Talk about a painful, expensive, mind-numbingly boring process. I do miss all the free time of M4 year, though . . .

 

[chicagosurgres]

As far as gen surg programs in the midwest go I can share a few thoughts especially about Chicago programs. Rush and Northwestern are both excellent programs. Will reserve any comment on U of C program for now. At Northwestern we have outstanding faculty and alot of young attendings. We have a surplus of advanced cases to the point that we as chiefs cannot cover them all which means alot of our 3s and 4s are getting to do chief level cases such as distal pancreatectomies and advanced laparoscopic cases. More importantly there is alot of independent operating for chiefs to be taking junior residents through cases while attendings keep their hands out of the mix. I have friends at Rush who love their program, and there is a brand new county hospital. Univ Of Illinois at Chicago is getting stronger by the year, and have a good reputation for advanced laparoscopic cases. Also take a look at Wisconsin and Medical College of Wisconsin. Both are good programs with excellent residents, alot of home call, and plenty of good cases to go around. I agree with doing an externship because you get a feel for a program and the people and all of the strengths and weaknesses become very apparant after a couple of weeks.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

thanks dr. evil! By the way, dig the name

I still have hopes that after I am off of the service that I am currently on that my program will fit the criteria for the "perfect" one. They're not being too good to me these days but I still have hope that this too shall pass (or so they say...)

Foxxy Cleopatra

 

[richierich]

Just a word about USF. I am a 4th year at USF and can say that the program here is definitely stable. Having just spent 2 weeks with Dick Karl our chair and hence being privy to a lot of the scuttle butt, I know that we are on the verge of getting a new chair for the department of Plastics thus a new plastics program. Also, at the Moffitt residents operate a ton. Usually you are the minimum of first assist on big procedures such as Whipples, Ivor lewis esophagogastrectomies, THE, Liver resections, and Colon work. As an intern it is difficult to get much stick time at the moffitt but you can get a lot at Tampa General.

Bottom line, if it were not for the fact that my wife and I are looking to move out of Tampa, at least for a while, I would be ranking our program #1. Lots of pathology, early OR experience, great faculty, and a great town to live in.

We have some big names here like:
Dick Karl, Lewis Flint, Alex Rosemurgy, Larry Carey, Peter Fabri, and few more with a lot of up and coming faculty.

Our residents typically do not have a problem getting the fellowships that they desire.

If anyone has specific questions feel free to contact me I will be happy to oblidge. ([email protected])

Richard

 

[JM.]

Originally posted by pba
1. location. you gotta live there. pick a city where you will be happy.

2. experience. ghetto is best for pathology/trauma. worst for ancillary. richie rich often has more cases cuz it's referrals are good and good ancillary, but patients can be annoying and attendings may be money grubbers. this is just a personal bias though.

3. research. if you want to do academics really really really really want to do academics (less than 10% of residents end up in academics) pick a place with research money.

4. women. i hear the south is pretty good.

5. i get my ass kicked some days. other days it is not kicked so much. the residents are nice. FU#K THE ATTENDINGS. THEY WILL BE EVIL NO MATTER WHERE YOU GO. MAKE SURE YOUR FELLOW RESIDENTS ARE CHILL AND NOT A BUNCH OF suck ups. trust me, this will make those days when you get your ass kicked much better. make sure there is a good mix of old and young attendings.

A. MALIGNANCY IS DETERMINED BY YOUR CHIEF RESIDENT.
B. ATTENDINGS WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR ENEMY
C. GOOD RESIDENTS = HAPPY 5-7 YEARS.

pba

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