What are the largest (culture, philosophy, emphasis) differences between the T5 schools?

[ointment]

And, if we want to define T5 schools...

Harvard
Stanford
Penn
JHU
UCSF
NYU?

In broad strokes, how are these schools different from one another (outside of location)? As institutions, which prioritize community care? Which prioritize research? Or, any other descriptors/factors/metrics you can think of.

I think that this could be an interesting discussion (and one for future applicants to look back on). For example, I just recently learned from students at Penn that there is a big culture of “business and innovation” there - I did not know this. Wow! Okay. What do you think?

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[deleted393595]

And, if we want to define T5 schools...

Harvard
Stanford
Penn
JHU
UCSF
NYU?

In broad strokes, how are these schools different from one another (outside of location)? As institutions, which prioritize community care? Which prioritize research? Or, any other descriptors/factors/metrics you can think of.

I think that this could be an interesting discussion (and one for future applicants to look back on). For example, I just recently learned from students at Penn that there is a big culture of “business and innovation” there - I did not know this. Wow! Okay. What do you think?

Lol NYU is not a "Top 5" by any stretch. They're massively gaming their rankings.

I go to a Top 5. Imho, we have smarter and more driven people, but are more toxic. It's high school on steroids where petty arguments massively and quickly spiral out of control. People often dump their current partners to hook up with someone else in the class. Other upsides are that your faculty preceptors are world experts and the connections you get to make are incredible. For instance, our clerkship small group leader a few weeks back is one of the foremost authorities in heart failure.

Downside is that we don't do community care.

 

[Engrailed]

And, if we want to define T5 schools...

Harvard
Stanford
Penn
JHU
UCSF
NYU?

In broad strokes, how are these schools different from one another (outside of location)? As institutions, which prioritize community care? Which prioritize research? Or, any other descriptors/factors/metrics you can think of.

I think that this could be an interesting discussion (and one for future applicants to look back on). For example, I just recently learned from students at Penn that there is a big culture of “business and innovation” there - I did not know this. Wow! Okay. What do you think?

I would think that of the top 5, Stanford and Penn probably have strongest ties to entrepreneurship and innovation. Stanford's B school and Penn/Wharton are renowned programs, even within the top tier B schools. (Stanford - silicon valley.. and Wharton.. is Wharton, #1, historically)

I dont think the quality of medical education differs significantly between those schools above, or between those and most other schools. I think JHU is probably the most well known for its medical school and probably has significant advantages to being near the NIH.

Edited:
The Grossman SOM likely has the strongest connection to NYC residency programs (of the ones listed!!) -plus it's free.

 

[Lucca]

And, if we want to define T5 schools...

Harvard
Stanford
Penn
JHU
UCSF
NYU?

In broad strokes, how are these schools different from one another (outside of location)? As institutions, which prioritize community care? Which prioritize research? Or, any other descriptors/factors/metrics you can think of.

I think that this could be an interesting discussion (and one for future applicants to look back on). For example, I just recently learned from students at Penn that there is a big culture of “business and innovation” there - I did not know this. Wow! Okay. What do you think?

they all do all of these things and you can have tremendous opportunities in all of those areas at any of those schools (and even other schools outside the T5 )

Student culture is certainly different from my own personal experience (my experience has been nothing like @ElCapone 's, at least not as an m1) but don't see the utility in making like a DnD alignment grid for them; have to talk to students from each place and get a sense for it yourself. Tougher this year with virtual second looks, but hopefully you got some impression on your interview day.

The bigger difference in culture IMO will be b/w East Coast vs. West Coast medicine. Again, this is from my own impressions, but West Coast med school culture seemed to me much chiller (acknowledging there are more things to life than medicine, ties and suits very very rare even in professional settings, etc.), less focus on hierarchy and blind deference to authority, more of a culture of questioning authority and established views, more social justice oriented student bodies as well (not to say there arent very active social justice efforts at all of the schools listed, because there are! talking about my broad impression of the general medical school community here), generally broader and more expansive view of what the role of medical professionals in science, society, culture can and should be on West coast. Obviously I'm biased lol.

Probably will get flamed for this but match list wise I think HMS/Stanford/Penn/JHU/UCSF are still a cut above NYU if your measurement of interest is "match students to top academic institutions in their specialty of choice"

 

[meronebib]

I would think that of the top 5, Stanford and Penn probably have strongest ties to entrepreneurship and innovation. Stanford's B school and Penn/Wharton are renowned programs, even within the top tier B schools. (Stanford - silicon valley.. and Wharton.. is Wharton, #1, historically)

I dont think the quality of medical education differs significantly between those schools above, or between those and most other schools. I think JHU is probably the most well known for its medical school and probably has significant advantages to being near the NIH.

The Grossman SOM likely has the strongest connection to NYC residency programs--plus it's free.

Come on now, everyone knows Columbia is the real T5 in NYC!

 

[Engrailed]

Come on now, everyone knows Columbia is the real T5 in NYC!

haha totally agree!

 

[Goro]

And, if we want to define T5 schools...

Harvard
Stanford
Penn
JHU
UCSF
NYU?

In broad strokes, how are these schools different from one another (outside of location)? As institutions, which prioritize community care? Which prioritize research? Or, any other descriptors/factors/metrics you can think of.

I think that this could be an interesting discussion (and one for future applicants to look back on). For example, I just recently learned from students at Penn that there is a big culture of “business and innovation” there - I did not know this. Wow! Okay. What do you think?

There are at least 10 schools in the "Top 5".

Here's what's really important:

NY deli and pizza
Baltimore crab cakes
Philly cheese steaks
Napa wine and Cali-Mex
New England clam chowder and lobster rolls, baked beans and creme pie
That casserole they call Chicago pizza
St Louis barbecue

 

[deleted480308]

There are at least 10 schools in the "Top 5".

Here's what's really important:

NY deli and pizza
Baltimore crab cakes
Philly cheese steaks
Napa wine and Cali-Mex
New England clam chowder and lobster rolls, baked beans and creme pie
That casserole they call Chicago pizza
St Louis barbecue

Duuuuuuuuude, them blue crabs!!!!!!!!!

 

[efle]

My personal top 5 would be Hopkins, HMS, UCSF, Penn, WashU and Stanford. Yes I know that's 6! But they are the perennial best rated by PDs and peers.

I honestly don't think there's much difference among these tip-top programs. I saw many of the same students at interviews and second looks between Hopkins, Penn, and WashU for example. They all like the high GPAs, top 1% test scores, and research (incl. entire gap years of research for 50%+ of students). They are all Pass/Fail preclinical now to minimize gunning (WashU and Penn having been graded until just the last couple years). UCSF may be the exception from the group, they seem to be more about your service and life story.

Which school is best for you can certainly be different. From the Midwest? Go to WashU to be near home. Want an MBA? Cross Hopkins and UCSF off the list. Finances are important? Penn and WashU offer 10-20 full rides each every year while the others are need-only. Location important? Something like Palo alto/San Fran will be a very different vibe than Baltimore or St Louis.

 

[gyngyn]

Location, location, location.

 

[I<3PopeyesFriedChicken]

I interviewed at several of these schools this cycle and I would say UCSF had the strongest emphasis on social justice, eliminating health disparities, and community care, in addition to being a research and clinical powerhouse. UCSF recruits among the highest number of URMs as a proportion of the class in comparison to other T20 schools. From glossing through data on MSAR, Pritzker is the only school that does just as well (if not better!) in terms of recruiting students who have historically been shut out of medicine. I think their wide distribution in terms of MCAT and GPA says a lot.

Also, it's very unfortunate that the Dean of Admissions, Dr. Wofsy, is retiring this year! I think he's really been instrumental in shaping the type of class that the school typically admits. This lecture which he gave speaks volumes about his values: David Wofsy Shares Three Wishes in 2019 UCSF Last Lecture

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Lol NYU is not a "Top 5" by any stretch. They're massively gaming their rankings.

I go to a Top 5. Imho, we have smarter and more driven people, but are more toxic. It's high school on steroids where petty arguments massively and quickly spiral out of control. People often dump their current partners to hook up with someone else in the class. Other upsides are that your faculty preceptors are world experts and the connections you get to make are incredible. For instance, our clerkship small group leader a few weeks back is one of the foremost authorities in heart failure.

Downside is that we don't do community care.

This has been my experience. My wife was red in the face after her UPENN interview, and called them to say she would not be attending. She muttered something about pretentious ( fill in the in the blank). Its about 50/50. Some of the most impressive unassuming people you will ever meet are from the top 5, and the most megalomaniacal jerks comprise the other half.

 

[Pluto98]

This has been my experience. My wife was red in the face after her UPENN interview, and called them to say she would not be attending. She muttered something about pretentious ( fill in the in the blank). Its about 50/50. Some of the most impressive unassuming people you will ever meet are from the top 5, and the most megalomaniacal jerks comprise the other half.

Can you describe in more detail what exactly happened during her UPENN interview to make her feel that way (I am currently choosing between UPENN and a few other schools) ?

 

[Lucca]

Can you describe in more detail what exactly happened during her UPENN interview to make her feel that way (I am currently choosing between UPENN and a few other schools) ?

dont make ur decision from anecdotes on sdn lol

 

[Pluto98]

dont make ur decision from anecdotes on sdn lol

Im not lol just needed an excuse to prod further without being rude because it sounded like an interesting story

 

[LizzyM]

You really can't judge based on a specific class/cohort. Each class develops its own vibe, often based on the leadership of a few students often as early as orientation. It is stunning as to how it shapes a class.

All of the schools on your list emphasize research because that's how they made it to the top of the list (big driver of the rankings is NIH funding).
None focus on community care.
All but one is private.
The locations are vastly different but students who are admitted to these schools have been judged to be "a good fit" for what a particular school has to offer. If you are lucky enough to have offers to more than one, then you should dig deeper into what sets one apart from the others so you can choose which offer to accept. If you haven't been offered admission yet, this is all mental masturbation.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Can you describe in more detail what exactly happened during her UPENN interview to make her feel that way (I am currently choosing between UPENN and a few other schools) ?

Definitely a fit thing for my wife , always has. I dont remember the specific questions, but everyone she met , mostly faculty, were pretentious, and made her feel like it was a reach for her to come there, then nitpicked her app. A very sterile process. BTW, my wife was an elite student. Then they proceeded to talk about themselves for the rest of the interview. Despite telling them she was not coming, she was accepted at every other med school that she applied to. Five if my memory serves me. I'm sure things are different and "fit" means different things to different people. To my wife, fit was the most important, not the schools name on her diploma. She went to a lower ranked school and everything turned out fine. So try to decide what kind of career path you want. Clinical? Academic/Teaching? Want to be an academic dept chair? Dean? Where you graduate from definitely can help you in these areas. I believe asking yourself how a particular school will help you achieve your career goals will be helpful in your school decision. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Any new opinions on this topic given that current cycle students will be deciding soon?

 

[Banco]

I mean location is the biggest one, other than that they are 95% the same **** i.e. lots of research and ability to match you into where you want to go. Most of them are private hospital focused though NYU has Bellevue and UCSF has SF Gen (I think) so community focus can actually occur there.

 

[LaughingGas10]

When the whole country can recognize you by 1 single letter, H, then clearly you are the best act in town.

The rest is all debatable.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

When the whole country can recognize you by 1 single letter, H, then clearly you are the best act in town.

The rest is all debatable.

I keep hearing that teaching at Penn and UCSF is better than H. Any comment on that?

 

[LaughingGas10]

I keep hearing that teaching at Penn and UCSF are better than H. Any comment on that?

They are all good at teaching medical students.

But the amount in research dollars is staggeringly different... H has 1,122 million per year which is higher than the next best 3 ..........combined !!!!. UCSF 431 million, Penn 351 million, Stanford 336 million.

That number is so shocking and higher than the GDP of some of the smaller countries.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

They are all good at teaching medical students.

But the amount in research dollars is staggeringly different... H has 1,122 million per year which is higher than the next best 3 ..........combined !!!!. UCSF 431 million, Penn 351 million, Stanford 336 million.

That number is so shocking and higher than the GDP of some of the smaller countries.

But how much research dollars make difference among them for medical students?

 

[KnightDoc]

I keep hearing that teaching at Penn and UCSF are better than H. Any comment on that?

Yes, you heard correct. Their teaching is definitely subpar. That is probably the main reason their graduates have such a difficult time matching.

 

[LaughingGas10]

But how much research dollars make difference among them for medical students?

I agree with you, research dollars should not be the only yard stick to measure the difference. They are all great schools, not sure I can claim that one among the top 20 is better than the other. Opportunities abound for students to thrive in research/discovery among all these places.

However, here is another piece of interesting statistics : medical school attended by nobel laureates in medicine.

Nobel laureates and their medical schools: who selected whom?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Nobel laureates and their medical schools: who selected whom?​

Allen B. Weisse, MD

Table 2.​

Top-rated research schools of medicine attended by 77 Nobel laureates

Rank​	Institution​	MD​	PhD​	MD/PhD​	Total​
1​	Harvard University*​	12​	6​	–​	18​
2​	Stanford University*​	–​	–​	–​	–​
3​	Johns Hopkins University*​	8​	2​	–​	10​
4​	University of California, San Francisco*​	–​	–​	–​	–​
5​	University of Pennsylvania​	1​	–​	–​	1​
6​	Washington University in St. Louis​	3​	–​	–​	3​
7​	Yale University*​	–​	2​	–​	2​
8​	Columbia University*​	3​	2​	–​	5​
9​	Duke University​	–​	–​	–​	–​
10​	University of Washington​	–​	1​	–​	1​
Other medical schools​	17​	18​	2​	37​
​	​	​	​	77​

*Also among the top 10 rated for graduate schools in science.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I agree with you, research dollars should not be the only yard stick to measure the difference. They are all great schools, not sure I can claim that one among the top 20 is better than the other. Opportunities abound for students to thrive in research/discovery among all these places.

However, here is another piece of interesting statistics : medical school attended by nobel laureates in medicine.

Nobel laureates and their medical schools: who selected whom?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Nobel laureates and their medical schools: who selected whom?​

Allen B. Weisse, MD

Table 2.​

Top-rated research schools of medicine attended by 77 Nobel laureates

Rank​	Institution​	MD​	PhD​	MD/PhD​	Total​
1​	Harvard University*​	12​	6​	–​	18​
2​	Stanford University*​	–​	–​	–​	–​
3​	Johns Hopkins University*​	8​	2​	–​	10​
4​	University of California, San Francisco*​	–​	–​	–​	–​
5​	University of Pennsylvania​	1​	–​	–​	1​
6​	Washington University in St. Louis​	3​	–​	–​	3​
7​	Yale University*​	–​	2​	–​	2​
8​	Columbia University*​	3​	2​	–​	5​
9​	Duke University​	–​	–​	–​	–​
10​	University of Washington​	–​	1​	–​	1​
Other medical schools​	17​	18​	2​	37​
​	​	​	​	77​

*Also among the top 10 rated for graduate schools in science.

I am disappointed by UCSF, may be I should pony up based on this list

 

[LaughingGas10]

I am disappointed by UCSF

It is Newton's tenth law of nature...... since they have not had one, they are most likely to get the next nobel laureate

 

[efle]

When the whole country can recognize you by 1 single letter, H, then clearly you are the best act in town.

The rest is all debatable.

H being Hopkins of course! #1 NIH funded hospital, and the students actually rotate primarily at that hospital unlike HMS/MGH. Hopkins was the basis for modern medical education. First to have medical students rotate on clerkships, first residency program. Identified by Flexner as the example all other schools should try to emulate. Even modern admissions criteria - requiring people study the sciences in college before entering medical school - came from how Hopkins was selecting students.

 

[LaughingGas10]

H being Hopkins of course! #1 NIH funded hospital, and the students actually rotate primarily at that hospital unlike HMS/MGH. Hopkins was the basis for modern medical education. First to have medical students rotate on clerkships, first residency program. Identified by Flexner as the example all other schools should try to emulate. Even modern admissions criteria - requiring people study the sciences in college before entering medical school - came from how Hopkins was selecting students.

Agree with you, it is a great school too.

And like @Goro said,..., what matters most is that it is hard to beat the Baltimore Crab cakes.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Agree with you, it is a great school too.

And like @Goro said,..., what matters most is that it is hard to beat the Baltimore Crab cakes.

Dungeness Crabs are not bad either 😛we use blue crab for curry.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

H being Hopkins of course! #1 NIH funded hospital, and the students actually rotate primarily at that hospital unlike HMS/MGH. Hopkins was the basis for modern medical education. First to have medical students rotate on clerkships, first residency program. Identified by Flexner as the example all other schools should try to emulate. Even modern admissions criteria - requiring people study the sciences in college before entering medical school - came from how Hopkins was selecting students.

Plus JH doesn't seem to promote the snobbery that some of the Ivy's do. I have met Ivy grads who couldn't wait to tell me where they trained or ask me where I trained. I have never seen a JH grad tell me where they trained unsolicited. Having said that, I guess I am biased because two of the residents who left mental scars in my cerebral cortex were from very highly regarded schools. One was from JH and the other from UCSF. I just got triggered a little merely thinking about them!!!!!!

Below is an example of what I am talking about. It is an excerpt from a Medscape article comment section. The Doctor making the comment felt the need to point out exactly where he went to med school, even though it had no impact on his point. He just felt that we all needed to know.

......"Ralph Schumacher, MD began the deep dive into its mechanism when I was a med student at Penn (70s)"