What are the pros and cons of MD/PhD?

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NJCU05

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Guys,
could someone tell me in details what the pros and cons of MD/PhD are?

For example,
what is the significance of MD/PhD after graduation?
Is it financially worthy to go through three more years for the PhD covering all medical tuition even though I may earn them if graduated three years earlier with only MD?
 
NJCU05 said:
Guys,
could someone tell me in details what the pros and cons of MD/PhD are?

For example,
what is the significance of MD/PhD after graduation?
Is it financially worthy to go through three more years for the PhD covering all medical tuition even though I may earn them if graduated three years earlier with only MD?

I'm still asking myself those questions....

My only advice is that it's not about money. If you want money, get the MD and go into private practice. If you do decide on going MD/PhD, be prepared to have a midlife crisis at 23 'cause I am beginning to have one now.
 
There's no advantage, financially or otherwise...only do it if you really want to. There are far more disadvantages. You can do all the research you could every imagine with a plain old MD.
 
tigershark said:
There's no advantage, financially or otherwise...only do it if you really want to. There are far more disadvantages. You can do all the research you could every imagine with a plain old MD.
while I don't agree there are no advantages if you aren't totally set on doing research then go MD. Also if money isn't an issue then it gets even more complicated. However, if you really want to make basic science research a LARGE part of your career then the MD/PhD path is hard to beat.
 
there are nobel laureates in medicine who are MDs, PhDs, and MD/PhDs, so obviously the degree(s) isn't/aren't going to make or break you (but maybe your own drive & luck will 😛 ). if you want the formal training in both fields to get a solid grip on biomedical research, then MD/PhD is the way to go IMO. unless, of course, money and time are more important to you 🙄
 
Although I do believe it is up to the individual and not the letters after his/her name, I think with science becoming increasingly sophisticated and specialized, it is becoming increasingly hard to conduct competitive basic research with just an MD. So the key determinant for the advantage of combined degree training is how confident you are that you want a basic science career...

Being in my early twenties, I can't pretend like I am confident that I will like anything ten years down the road. Time and finances definitely have come across my mind. I'm sure people have done this analysis, but is there a financial advantage to doing MSTP vs MD only (without the parents' help)?? 100 to 200K of debt can really roll into a large burden if you don't pay it off quickly enough, and it seems like most specialty salaries are decreasing...
 
NJCU05 said:
Guys,
could someone tell me in details what the pros and cons of MD/PhD are?

For example,
what is the significance of MD/PhD after graduation?
Is it financially worthy to go through three more years for the PhD covering all medical tuition even though I may earn them if graduated three years earlier with only MD?

If what you're really saying is, "I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not to do MD/PhD", then the answer is "You probably shouldn't." The downside is almost all now, and the upside is all in the future, and only if your career takes you in a fairly specific direction.

That said, here's a partial list:
PROS
  • Tuition funded. But this is a much less big deal than people think. First, student loans are a great deal. Second, the opportunity cost is too large.
  • Great training. If you do a real PhD, you're almost ready to be a scientist when you're done. You probably know approximately how to write a grant, and what interesting questions would be. Believe me, this is huge.
  • Residency advantages. You have a leg up on straight MD applicants to academic residency programs. This also applies especially to medicine fellowship programs. They always want people who are into research, and having a PhD is a good sign that that might be you.
  • Grant advantages. If you want to set up a research program, you have real advantages over straight MDs and PhDs. First, there are programs specifically for MD/PhDs. Second, in many funding programs, being an MD/PhD is either an implicit or explicit advantage.
  • Coolness factor. I'm a geek, OK? And in my world, it's cool to have two doctorates. This is silly, and but it's real.

CONS
  • Time. You mention three years up above. Most programs say "7-8 years", and most applicants think, "I'm smart, so it'll be 7 for me." But I know at my program, there were rare students who complete in three years. By far, most people did four, and some do five (or longer). The ones who do five are not (necessarily) slackers. And the difference between the short and longer tracks was mostly luck, mostly out of control of the student. Basically, if you sign up for MD/PhD, you need to be prepared for a nine-year commitment. I'm not saying it'll take nine years, and I'm not saying there's nothing you can do to speed it up, but even if you did everything right, it could still be nine years. If you can't stand the idea of spending nine more years in school, then an MD/PhD isn't right for you.
  • Time. You're old when you're done. Your peers are fellows or attendings or partners in their law firm, and you're starting an internship. Blegh. :barf: They're actually getting paid, and for you, $42k a year is a big step up. Assume five years of post-grad training, and you don't see your first real paycheck until you're in your mid-thirties.
  • Less pay. Oh, and did I mention that that paycheck will be smaller? If you're actually going to be academic and do research, you'll make less money than if you were doing full-on private practice. In some fields (e.g., radiology right now) the difference can be enormous, more than $150k/year.
  • Did I mention it takes a long time?

Basically, the only way the calculus makes sense if you have to be a physician, and you have to be a scientist. Not because either of those needs makes sense, but because you can't help who you are. If you're not sure (which is to say, if you're not a little bit crazy), it's probably not for you.
 
Ears,
Thanks so much. Your reply was so helpful.
 
your question is floating so it's hard to answer. What do you ultimately plan on doing? Strictly research? Or some combination of research + seeing patients? Do you want to go into academic medicine or industry?
Or are you in it for the free MD :meanie: .

The pros and cons are different depending on exactly what you want to do as a career, so it's hard to answer unless you specify those details.
 
NJCU05 said:
Ears,
Thanks so much. Your reply was so helpful.
You're very welcome.

SeventhSon's reply is also helpful, because what you want to do affects whether an MD/PhD makes sense. I think it only really works for a very narrow range of career plans.

Different scenarios:
  • Just clinical medicine. Just do an MD, duh. :idea:
  • Mostly clinical medicine, some clinical research. Just a straight MD is really all you need. If you're ambitious, you might do a research year between 3rd and 4th year to prove your research bona fides. Alternatively, an MD/MPH also makes a lot of sense; you'll learn how to design studies and analyze data, which you don't really get out of a straight MD.
  • Mostly clinical medicine, some basic science research. Probably the most efficient way to pursue this career path is through a straight MD, possibly with a research year between 3rd and 4th years. Then, when you specialize, you can arrange to get a bunch of basic science research time during your fellowship. That way, you can be involved and collaborate on basic science work.
  • Mostly basic science/engineering, some clinical medicine. This is where the MD/PhD makes the most sense. If you're dead set on running a lab, you probably can't pursue full-time clinical duties (and possibly barely even part-time duties). You need to finish a residency and probably a fellowship, which means you can be connected with a clinical department and have some clinical duties, but your life would be mostly research. As I emphasized above, this is a long road: a total of thirteen years (eight for school, five for post-grad clinical training) before you could be a junior faculty member. (And many MD/PhDs fall off somewhere along the line. It's an interesting problem.)
  • All basic science (possibly with clinical applications). As you probably know, there's a lot of basic science going on in medical centers. Big academic departments do a ton of work like this, and they have a lot of PhD-only PIs working for them. And this is a shorter path; like, ten years (five for school, three for post-doc training) before you could get a job. The only downside is, you can't practice medicine.

So really, only if you absolutely answer yes to both questions, "Do I want to practice medicine?" and "Do I want to do full-time research?" does an MD/PhD really make sense. If you're more into one or the other, you should just commit to one side, and do it.

A mentor I respect very much (a very capable and successful neuroscientist) said to me once, "I don't know why so many people try to decide between med school and grad school. I mean, the careers are really nothing alike. It's like saying, 'Well, I might drive a truck, or maybe I'll play center for the Rangers.'" (I don't know which one she thought was like driving a truck. 🙂 ) But she's right; most people should be able to make a decision and stick to it. If you can't... maybe you should consider the possibility that neither is the right one for you.
 
ears said:
All basic science (possibly with clinical applications).[/b] As you probably know, there's a lot of basic science going on in medical centers. Big academic departments do a ton of work like this, and they have a lot of PhD-only PIs working for them. And this is a shorter path; like, ten years (five for school, three for post-doc training) before you could get a job. The only downside is, you can't practice medicine.

So really, only if you absolutely answer yes to both questions, "Do I want to practice medicine?" and "Do I want to do full-time research?" does an MD/PhD really make sense. If you're more into one or the other, you should just commit to one side, and do it.

I think about this part differently. The usual disclaimer applies: I am an MD/PhD student and this is my opinion... Just because I am moderator doesn't mean it's more right. This post gets back to that question of "What is the MD/PhD for?" It seems like everyone has their own views on that one--here's mine.

What is the goal of the MD/PhD program if you ask most program directors? Especially here at Penn (we hear it over and over again) it is: to train basic scientists who have their own labs as PIs. If there's any clinical duty in there at all, it's minimized down to 10-20% of work time. Most people I talk to say the 50/50 split is gone (with a few exceptions). The conclusion I've made then is that most MD/PhD programs are trying to train basic scientists who can translate questions to the bench and answers to the bed. Obviously, those who don't end up at that goal are not failures (though some would view the private practice MD/PhDs as such), however you should come into the MD/PhD program thinking that this is where they want you to go.

That being said, why shouldn't those students interested in being full-time researchers go into MD/PhD programs? Sure, if you can't stomach the idea of playing doctor or spending the extra years getting an MD, don't do it. But for those students who want to know and learn more for the purpose of better understanding the research they hope to do someday, I think it's a good idea. A PhD student has to face that in graduate school one gets very little education as to how your project fits into a bigger picture. I think that a broad based education, like that given in medical school, makes you better equipped to interpret data and ask questions of your own.

There was a time when graduate schools used to teach things like anatomy and histology for PhDs in related subjects. As such, alot of mature researchers got some of that broad-based education. Now, PhD education is more on specialized topics in their areas and the techniques that address them. At my undergrad, most Neuroscience students didn't even take Neuroanatomy (too expensive to get the brains and get someone to teach it!). Students in my lab doing pulse sequence development for MRI are not eligible to take human anatomy (one student tried recently), even though I think many would benefit greatly from it. In many labs, students must apply biochemistry and histology techniques, with little to no understanding of the fundamentals behind them. Undergraduate education is usually lacking in teaching one the fundamentals of biomedical science.

Still, I've never been a big advocate of PhD programs for another reason. I think graduate programs need more regulation for the protection of students. We all hear the stories of students who can't get a lab and get tossed out; students who get held in labs for bogus reasons; students floundering for years with little attention from their PIs. Sure, the PhD in a MD/PhD program is not guaranteed, but the funding comes with alot of oversight both from the institution (which most of your funding comes from, not the government in most cases) and from the NIGMS. This is a good thing. Some may look down on MD/PhDs as scientists because they have shorter times to PhDs and protections against bad labs... But, in my opinion, this is a GOOD THING for a training environment.

There's also that more practical issue of job options and security when you're done. You will be more attractive to research institutions with that MD even if you don't practice medicine. There's the one argument that it sets you apart from the droves of PhDs that are fighting for jobs and there's the other argument that if your research does tank you can switch over to being a clinician.

This advice can't be given to all PhD hopefuls. I've heard the reason from a few PhD students for getting their PhD is that they "Didn't know what else to do", "Wanted to drink some beer", etc... However, some PhD applicants are focused, and not always on academics but frequently on industry, law, or business. Though, if a student is focused on becoming an academic researcher, I would encourage them to consider MD/PhD. There's always that "I dunno" factor, and that's great. You don't know if you wanna do medicine or research, but you want to understand both is a good reason for choosing MD/PhD. You do still have those options for industry or business, but know that you'll probably end up in academic medicine or research. This is different from the truely clueless. They don't choose MD/PhD programs because they're "too long". They see (somewhat fallaciously) the PhD as a 5 year commitment and the MD/PhD as a 13 year commitment.

It's easy for PIs to say "PICK RESEARCH OR MEDICINE! YOU CAN'T DO BOTH SO WHY LEARN BOTH?". I heard it alot at my undergrad, which discourages students from persuing the MD/PhD. These PIs are well established in their careers and see what it takes to get to where they are. I had no idea I'd be in this lab for my PhD doing this kind of research when I started the MD/PhD. I don't know what I'm gonna be doing in another 10 years. But, I still love the idea of the 90/10 split... The idea of doing research all day and knowing how it can be applied to help people. When I end up being established, I'll see shorter roads to get to that point, but I still think I'll have benefitted from knowing what I know. Those who didn't take the curvy path don't know what they're missing, or maybe they just don't feel the same way as I do. After all, I'm one of those weirdos who wants to know just about everything just for the sake of knowing how the world works. I picked my lab based on "What do I know NOTHING about?" The PI being a nice guy and a history of getting students out quickly was a good touch.
 
Neuronix, very detailed and helpful thoughts indeed...

Im thinking of applying to MD/PhD for many reasons.
as far as the money factor is concerned, I don't understand the big difference, unless I got the wrong picture. If you only do the MD, yah true u can work and u'll make some $ after graduation but then u have to pay back ur tuition,right? say it'll take like on avg 3-4 yrs. Compare that to MD'PhD, yes true u spend 3-4 more years more in school, but u don't have to pay back tuition, so the way I see it is that when it comes to $, in most cases, none is better than the other, although at least in MD/PhD u'll end up with a PhD!
what do u guys think?
 
karbouzie said:
Neuronix, very detailed and helpful thoughts indeed...

Im thinking of applying to MD/PhD for many reasons.
as far as the money factor is concerned, I don't understand the big difference, unless I got the wrong picture. If you only do the MD, yah true u can work and u'll make some $ after graduation but then u have to pay back ur tuition,right? say it'll take like on avg 3-4 yrs. Compare that to MD'PhD, yes true u spend 3-4 more years more in school, but u don't have to pay back tuition, so the way I see it is that when it comes to $, in most cases, none is better than the other, although at least in MD/PhD u'll end up with a PhD!
what do u guys think?

This is true, but loan repayment is most often longer-term (i.e. 5, 10 or even 30 years) and interest rates are fairly low for student loans. An MD will often have loans, but income will be much higher sooner (~3-4 years). Net income is typically higher for a resident compared to an MD/PhD student. After residency, the net income gap grows significantly wider. In other words, although an MD/PhD will graduate without loans, your net income will be lower compared to MD counterparts for several years out, and total cumulative income will also be lower (all other things being equal).

Therefore, it is generally NOT worth doing an MD/PhD for financial reasons.
 
I was an MD PhD applicant only but recently since a school rejected me for MSTP and offered me a MD interview, I found myself leaning toward straight MD. It is very naive of me to ask this but since I don't know the answer, I may as well as. How do MD students often finance their years in school? Assuming loans take care of tuition, do they still need a job to cover apartment rent, etc... especially many got married in the middle of med schools? I would really appreciate if someone could answer my question
 
Vader said:
This is true, but loan repayment is most often longer-term (i.e. 5, 10 or even 30 years) and interest rates are fairly low for student loans. An MD will often have loans, but income will be much higher sooner (~3-4 years). Net income is typically higher for a resident compared to an MD/PhD student. After residency, the net income gap grows significantly wider. In other words, although an MD/PhD will graduate without loans, your net income will be lower compared to MD counterparts for several years out, and total cumulative income will also be lower (all other things being equal).

Therefore, it is generally NOT worth doing an MD/PhD for financial reasons.

While it's true that it is not worth going into for financial reasons, it sounds like the best program for for someone strongly interested in research. Either way you'll have to put in the same training time - only you won't get the other credential to strengthen the resume (PhD), it won't be free, and you'll be more competitive with the double degree than with just a single doctorate. But I agree that it is not a good idea for someone interested only in clinical medicine as a "free MD" - because graduate school is so trying that I would hardly call it "free" if it were done unnecessarily.
 
Doctorsoontobe said:
It is very naive of me to ask this but since I don't know the answer, I may as well as. How do MD students often finance their years in school? Assuming loans take care of tuition, do they still need a job to cover apartment rent, etc... especially many got married in the middle of med schools? I would really appreciate if someone could answer my question

Loans cover everything. Each school budgets you a living allowance that you take loans to cover.

As for the other post about MD->PhD, one of the significant hurdles is that if you do go get a PhD after your MD your loans will be accruing interest while you work on your PhD. This, sadly, makes the MD more expensive. There's tremendous pressure when you're done your MD to get practicing in medicine, both financially and just because you want to be done. There's a sense of finish and of being the boss that one just can't deny after years and years of being a peon. This is a much worse feeling in medicine due to the fairly strict hierarchy, I find. This is why you'll never see a fully-funded MD/PhD program where you do all your clinicals before starting the PhD 😉. My point is that while alot of people may think "well if really want the PhD, I can go get it later...", very few people do for these reasons.
 
I doesn't make sense financially - assuming you will work until the same age, you lose 3-5 years of a physicians end salary (200+K per year in many years from now). So, you're losing 600K - 1 million. Even 100K/yr is 300-500K. Not worth it at all if going for the free MD.

And you're starting your life much later than everyone else. Both of my brothers started working in business early (one without a HS degree and one right after college). They pity me because they are totally loaded and can retire right now while I'm just graduating in May.

My point: don't do it for the $$.

karbouzie said:
Neuronix, very detailed and helpful thoughts indeed...

Im thinking of applying to MD/PhD for many reasons.
as far as the money factor is concerned, I don't understand the big difference, unless I got the wrong picture. If you only do the MD, yah true u can work and u'll make some $ after graduation but then u have to pay back ur tuition,right? say it'll take like on avg 3-4 yrs. Compare that to MD'PhD, yes true u spend 3-4 more years more in school, but u don't have to pay back tuition, so the way I see it is that when it comes to $, in most cases, none is better than the other, although at least in MD/PhD u'll end up with a PhD!
what do u guys think?
 
Very insightful post by Neuronix. My follow-up question is, if an applicant wanted to do the MD/PhD to better understand as you so well articulated, but isn't sure whether they want to ultimately do any clinical things at all, would it behoove or hurt them to say so when applying to MSTPs?
 
solitude said:
My follow-up question is, if an applicant wanted to do the MD/PhD to better understand as you so well articulated, but isn't sure whether they want to ultimately do any clinical things at all, would it behoove or hurt them to say so when applying to MSTPs?

It's hard to answer this question because it's hard to make a blanket statement about interviews. Different schools and different interviewers are looking for different things. When I interviewed at UMich, one of my 14 interviews (do they still do that?!) was a MD/PhD 90/10 type of guy that I totally put off. He asked me if I had a compelling drive to see patients that makes me want to get an MD. When I said I didn't, he told me that I needed one for MD/PhD or that I'd lose all patient contact and asked me sort of why would one want an MD if they didn't have an invisble force to make them want to help people directly. At that time I thought I wanted to be a surgeon, and as such patient interaction wasn't what drove me. That never has been a reason I wanted to go into medicine, and as I think more about Radiology as a career, patient contact is still not a factor in my specialty choice. I was rejected at UMich, not that I'll ever know why.

So what's the best answer? I don't know. If you say you want to do the 50/50 split, many interviewers will sort of laugh at you and tell you it's impossible. Still, I think they're looking for someone who is enthusiastic about doing both, even if many faculty think we're naive (and we are). My impression is the ideal for MD/PhD programs is an applicant who wants to do medicine and research but who will put research first. Still, if you are the kind of person who is doing MD/PhD but visions themselves doing 100% research when they're done I don't think it's going to hurt you much if any to say so. I just think it's going to depend on the school and the interviewer and how they see things. If they're an interviewer who agrees with my earlier post, it's obviously not going to hurt you. If it's one of these types who has gone far out of their way to continue seeing patients for one reason or another and feels it's absolutely crucial to an MD/PhD faculty, they may not like hearing you want to do 100% research.

As interviews go, it's always up to you as to how you want to spin things... As much as some other posters would like to say "interviewers will know if you're insincere!", yeah right. They know so much about you from an application and a half hour interview... No. It's just up to you to sell yourself somehow. Whether that's to some "ideal" or to what you really see is right is up to you.
 
Neuronix said:
It's hard to answer this question because it's hard to make a blanket statement about interviews. Different schools and different interviewers are looking for different things. When I interviewed at UMich, one of my 14 interviews (do they still do that?!) was a MD/PhD 90/10 type of guy that I totally put off. He asked me if I had a compelling drive to see patients that makes me want to get an MD. When I said I didn't, he told me that I needed one for MD/PhD or that I'd lose all patient contact and asked me sort of why would one want an MD if they didn't have an invisble force to make them want to help people directly. At that time I thought I wanted to be a surgeon, and as such patient interaction wasn't what drove me. That never has been a reason I wanted to go into medicine, and as I think more about Radiology as a career, patient contact is still not a factor in my specialty choice. I was rejected at UMich, not that I'll ever know why.

So what's the best answer? I don't know. If you say you want to do the 50/50 split, many interviewers will sort of laugh at you and tell you it's impossible. Still, I think they're looking for someone who is enthusiastic about doing both, even if many faculty think we're naive (and we are). My impression is the ideal for MD/PhD programs is an applicant who wants to do medicine and research but who will put research first. Still, if you are the kind of person who is doing MD/PhD but visions themselves doing 100% research when they're done I don't think it's going to hurt you much if any to say so. I just think it's going to depend on the school and the interviewer and how they see things. If they're an interviewer who agrees with my earlier post, it's obviously not going to hurt you. If it's one of these types who has gone far out of their way to continue seeing patients for one reason or another and feels it's absolutely crucial to an MD/PhD faculty, they may not like hearing you want to do 100% research.

As interviews go, it's always up to you as to how you want to spin things... As much as some other posters would like to say "interviewers will know if you're insincere!", yeah right. They know so much about you from an application and a half hour interview... No. It's just up to you to sell yourself somehow. Whether that's to some "ideal" or to what you really see is right is up to you.


Thanks very much, very helpful. I guess I have two years to contemplate the issue. 🙂
 
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