What can I do now to improve my chances of getting the residency I want?

[95439]

Hey everyone,

I just finished my first year at Touro-NV. It's somewhat premature, but I really want to know what I can do to help get the residency I want (I'm looking at either Neurology/Neurosurgery, orthopedic surgery, general surgery, or ER). I know I'm starting at a 'disadvantage' being a DO - I plan on taking the USMLE Step 1 next summer. Does that eliminate most of the 'osteopath' bias in the residency match?

I guess I'd really love to get people's opinion on (in order of importance) what determines the 'Match' process. I hear it's
1) Board scores
2) Grades
3) Letters of Recommendation
4) Who you know

Is that true? I keep hearing now that really the most important thing is who you know. I've also heard research (especially published) helps one attain their top residency choice (I really don't plan on doing research so I hope that's not true!).
Any advice on this would be greatly appreciated - I'd love to hear people's personal experience, or if there's any published material on the 'definitive Match criteria' that someone can point me to. Oh, and I'm thinking about taking a Medical Terminology course in Spanish this summer - would that give me an advantage in a state with a large latino population (i.e. California)?

Thanks in advance!!

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[VALSALVA]

Top Five items of importance

1. Rotations in chosen field
2. Letters of Rec. from people in chosen field
3. Clinical Rotations
4. Board Scores
5. Pre-clinical Grades

A word on research: seemingly necessary to get in the door in some fields (i.e. dermatology). Minor in terms of importance for most specialties. However, it's always a feather in your cap if you're published.

Obviously, all of the above pale in comparison to interview day - assuming you get there. All else being equal, a program is going to want to choose residents that fit in personality/attitude wise.

 

[KeyLime]

I won't be a medical student until this summer, but I have been reading Iserson's "Getting into a Residency", and it seems like it has a lot of good information in it.

Here's a link if you are interested:
http://www.amazon.com/Isersons-Getting-into-Residency-Students/dp/1883620309

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Top Five items of importance

1. Rotations in chosen field
2. Letters of Rec. from people in chosen field
3. Clinical Rotations
4. Board Scores
5. Pre-clinical Grades

A word on research: seemingly necessary to get in the door in some fields (i.e. dermatology). Minor in terms of importance for most specialties. However, it's always a feather in your cap if you're published.

Obviously, all of the above pale in comparison to interview day - assuming you get there. All else being equal, a program is going to want to choose residents that fit in personality/attitude wise.

Agree with this... also, try to determine which field you actually want to enter.. without a more specific goal than one of 6 or 7 fields, it's hard to tailor any recommendations.

Also being a D.O. isn't a disadvantage, regardless of what others here on SDN say... there are D.O.s in every one of the fields you mentioned. There are even AOA accredited residencies in each of them. Don't downplay your degree, be proud of it, you will have worked hard to get it.

jd

 

[Static Line]

As a follow up. What, if any, are the important differences in applying to the surgical residencies in the AOA programs versus ACGME programs? Does anyone know what surgical programs are dually accredited?

 

[SOUNDMAN]

Top Five items of importance

1. Rotations in chosen field
2. Letters of Rec. from people in chosen field
3. Clinical Rotations
4. Board Scores
5. Pre-clinical Grades

I would tend to agree that these are the top five things you need to do. If you are wanting to do a competitive ACGME residency and not a AOA residency, in these fields, there will still be bias no matter what. There was a DO that matched into orthopedics at Mayo this year from the midwest. His scores were outstanding 249 on USMLE, good rotations at those sites, etc. He applied to over 60 programs all ACGME, and only received 10 or 12 interviews. As an MD, his interview total would probably have doubled imho.

Know that there still exists some discrimination, but some of it can be overcome. Secondly there are some good AOA residencies in all of those slots as well, so you should check them out too.

 

[VALSALVA]

Know that there still exists some discrimination, but some of it can be overcome. Secondly there are some good AOA residencies in all of those slots as well, so you should check them out too.

Agree. Anything's possible as a DO, but you typically have to be better than your MD peers when vying for the same spots. I believe this is why competitive MD programs who have taken DO's are generally very pleased with them...they chose the real rockstars of the DO class...people who would have done wonderfully anywhere.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

As a follow up. What, if any, are the important differences in applying to the surgical residencies in the AOA programs versus ACGME programs? Does anyone know what surgical programs are dually accredited?

AOA accredited residencies, especially the surgical ones, tend to "require" an audition rotation as a 4th year to be accepted - at least from what my classmates and other surgical wanna-be's have told me. This goes for gen surgery and especially orthopedics.

Maybe JP can chime in on this issue?

Otherwise, I'm bowing out of this discussion... I don't know enough about it.

jd

 

[Dr JPH]

Top Five items of importance

1. Rotations in chosen field
2. Letters of Rec. from people in chosen field
3. Clinical Rotations
4. Board Scores
5. Pre-clinical Grades

A word on research: seemingly necessary to get in the door in some fields (i.e. dermatology). Minor in terms of importance for most specialties. However, it's always a feather in your cap if you're published.

Obviously, all of the above pale in comparison to interview day - assuming you get there. All else being equal, a program is going to want to choose residents that fit in personality/attitude wise.

Excellent post.

I think showing yourself and "who you know" count for more than we would like to think. Its not all merit based.

Numbers may get you an interview, but standing alone they wont get you the spot...at least not in surgical fields IME. Perhaps Rads or Optho.

Also agree about research. It can ONLY HELP, but really isnt required for most specialties. Integrated plastics, derm, optho, rads, rad onc...probably should have something published.

 

[Dr JPH]

AOA accredited residencies, especially the surgical ones, tend to "require" an audition rotation as a 4th year to be accepted - at least from what my classmates and other surgical wanna-be's have told me. This goes for gen surgery and especially orthopedics.

I agree.

Surgical residencies want to see how you work, AOA or ACGME

Boards and grades show how you think and study.

I would absolutely recommend rotating at your top 3 surgical programs. Surgeons want to know they can rely on you. Can you put that line in? Do you know when youre in trouble? Do you know when to call at 2am vs waiting until 5am?

If you are serious about a surgical program, spend at least a month there.

The DO surgical world is also smaller than you might think. Get to know the right people. Many of the stronger programs will have LOTS of visiting students so you need to stand out.

PCOM this year had almost 70 visiting students who applied, many who rotated through at one time or another.

As far as I know the only AOA/ACGME surgery program is PCOM.

 

[nvshelat]

Just want to give you a heads up about the mentor forum. A lot of great questions of this nature are fielded there.

 

[95439]

Top Five items of importance

1. Rotations in chosen field
2. Letters of Rec. from people in chosen field
3. Clinical Rotations
4. Board Scores
5. Pre-clinical Grades

A word on research: seemingly necessary to get in the door in some fields (i.e. dermatology). Minor in terms of importance for most specialties. However, it's always a feather in your cap if you're published.

Obviously, all of the above pale in comparison to interview day - assuming you get there. All else being equal, a program is going to want to choose residents that fit in personality/attitude wise.

Valsalva, not only is this excellent advice, but you have a picture of Ralph Wiggum as a doctor, which automatically makes you a genius in my book!!! I believe that was where he cut out Mr. Burn's 'liver bone'?....
It's interesting that the pre-clinical grades and boards are the least important aspects of getting the residency of your choice...at this point, is there really much I can do to effect my residency chances? Maybe start to network more with surgeons? If I want to do my residency in Los Angeles, should I start to network there? Also, I really am proud of being a 'DO', I just don't want my opportunities limited later on.
Also, congratulations JP on becoming a doctor!!!

 

[Dr JPH]

It's interesting that the pre-clinical grades and boards are the least important aspects of getting the residency of your choice...at this point, is there really much I can do to effect my residency chances?

Rotate at the places you are going to apply. Look for research opportunities. Become involved in the Surgery Club at your school. Attend national conferences if you can. Find out who the "need to know" people are at the programs that interest you.

Maybe start to network more with surgeons?

No maybe about it, definately.

If I want to do my residency in Los Angeles, should I start to network there?

If possible, yes.

Also, I really am proud of being a 'DO', I just don't want my opportunities limited later on.

The only limitations will be the ones you place on yourself. No one is going to hold you back, only you can hold you back.

Also, congratulations JP on becoming a doctor!!!

Thank you.

 

[VALSALVA]

Valsalva, not only is this excellent advice, but you have a picture of Ralph Wiggum as a doctor, which automatically makes you a genius in my book!!! I believe that was where he cut out Mr. Burn's 'liver bone'?....
It's interesting that the pre-clinical grades and boards are the least important aspects of getting the residency of your choice...at this point, is there really much I can do to effect my residency chances? Maybe start to network more with surgeons? If I want to do my residency in Los Angeles, should I start to network there? Also, I really am proud of being a 'DO', I just don't want my opportunities limited later on.
Also, congratulations JP on becoming a doctor!!!

Well I don't know about genius, but thanks! I completely agree with JP's comments just above. I only have one small gripe...where's my congratulations? I'm graduating in three tiny days??? Just kidding...like you would know??!

 

[Dr JPH]

Well I don't know about genius, but thanks! I completely agree with JP's comments just above. I only have one small gripe...where's my congratulations? I'm graduating in three tiny days??? Just kidding...like you would know??!

Actually youre not. I heard through the grapevine that you will be repeating 4th year.



(congrats!)

 

[95439]

Well I don't know about genius, but thanks! I completely agree with JP's comments just above. I only have one small gripe...where's my congratulations? I'm graduating in three tiny days??? Just kidding...like you would know??!

You've got to post under your name that you're about to graduate - and it has to show how many days and/or hours until it happens. Until then, you get nada....except for a Ralph Wiggum quote: "Hi Supernintendo Chalmers!".

 

[95439]

Rotate at the places you are going to apply. Look for research opportunities. Become involved in the Surgery Club at your school. Attend national conferences if you can. Find out who the "need to know" people are at the programs that interest you.



No maybe about it, definately.



If possible, yes.



The only limitations will be the ones you place on yourself. No one is going to hold you back, only you can hold you back.



Thank you.

JP, it's got to be about 79 hours now.....tick-tock-tick-tock.....
In terms of networking and finding surgeons, I assume honesty is the best policy? (i.e. let them know that I am interested in their program and would like to meet as many people as possible there)? Otherwise, I'm contacting them under a false premise that I have 'heard of their work', or something to that effect, which just seems cheap and dirty....is there a standard method of approaching a doctor in the specialty I'm interested in?

Thanks again for your advice, you guys are great!

 

[Dr JPH]

JP, it's got to be about 79 hours now.....tick-tock-tick-tock.....
In terms of networking and finding surgeons, I assume honesty is the best policy? (i.e. let them know that I am interested in their program and would like to meet as many people as possible there)? Otherwise, I'm contacting them under a false premise that I have 'heard of their work', or something to that effect, which just seems cheap and dirty....is there a standard method of approaching a doctor in the specialty I'm interested in?

Thanks again for your advice, you guys are great!

84 hours 31 minutes

Programs directors are quite used to having students rotate who are "auditioning". They know the drill.

As far as networking, the best way to do this is to make a good impression on your rotations. Hopefully you can schedule some elective time there and get face-time with the people making decisions on future residents.

I would suggest contacting the Surgery Dept Chair at your school. See who he knows in the field. Even if your school doesnt have a residency program or its not a program youre interested in, you can use this person to help you network. I guarantee he knows someone.

The Surg Chair at PCOM is more than happy to help people network wherever they want to go. Of course, with the best DO program in the country he knows he wont be hurting for applicants.

National conferences, guest lecture series...these are good places to meet people. You cant be afraid to travel if you want to spread yourself around to a few programs.

Dont try to blow smoke up anyones ass. Most doctors, especially surgeons, are aware of what youre doing. I have seen a lot of people rotate through places they are interested in...they kiss ass, ask all the right questions, run for charts on rounds...and it doesnt fool the attending. They give them the old "you can keep kissing my ass because I like it, but youre not getting a spot here" look.

I am going to tell you the secrets to getting a surgical residency. Ready? Just between you and me:

1. Work hard
2. Show up early
3. Stay late
4. Volunteer for call
5. Spoke when youre spoken to (especially in the OR)
6. Save questions for after the case or teaching rounds...NOT during the case or during working rounds
7. Show compassion
8. Answer your pager within 15 seconds
9. Present SOMETHING on your rotation
10. Show enthusiasm about doing procedures
11. Dont hog or beg for procedures
12. KNOW THE LAB VALUES & VITALS ON EVERY PATIENT AT EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY
13. Write good progress notes. ALWAYS include: temp, I&O, labs, studies, path
14. Be outgoing but not annoying
15. Know youre role...you are a medical student. Believe it or not, the service WILL go on without you

 

[VALSALVA]

You've got to post under your name that you're about to graduate - and it has to show how many days and/or hours until it happens. Until then, you get nada....except for a Ralph Wiggum quote: "Hi Supernintendo Chalmers!".

Ouch!!! Here are two my favorite Ralph quotes:

"The doctor said I wouldn't have so many nose bleeds if I kept my finger outta there."

"Then, the doctor told me that BOTH my eyes were lazy! And that's why it was the best summer ever."

 

[95439]

84 hours 31 minutes

Programs directors are quite used to having students rotate who are "auditioning". They know the drill.

As far as networking, the best way to do this is to make a good impression on your rotations. Hopefully you can schedule some elective time there and get face-time with the people making decisions on future residents.

I would suggest contacting the Surgery Dept Chair at your school. See who he knows in the field. Even if your school doesnt have a residency program or its not a program youre interested in, you can use this person to help you network. I guarantee he knows someone.

The Surg Chair at PCOM is more than happy to help people network wherever they want to go. Of course, with the best DO program in the country he knows he wont be hurting for applicants.

National conferences, guest lecture series...these are good places to meet people. You cant be afraid to travel if you want to spread yourself around to a few programs.

Dont try to blow smoke up anyones ass. Most doctors, especially surgeons, are aware of what youre doing. I have seen a lot of people rotate through places they are interested in...they kiss ass, ask all the right questions, run for charts on rounds...and it doesnt fool the attending. They give them the old "you can keep kissing my ass because I like it, but youre not getting a spot here" look.

I am going to tell you the secrets to getting a surgical residency. Ready? Just between you and me:

1. Work hard
2. Show up early
3. Stay late
4. Volunteer for call
5. Spoke when youre spoken to (especially in the OR)
6. Save questions for after the case or teaching rounds...NOT during the case or during working rounds
7. Show compassion
8. Answer your pager within 15 seconds
9. Present SOMETHING on your rotation
10. Show enthusiasm about doing procedures
11. Dont hog or beg for procedures
12. KNOW THE LAB VALUES & VITALS ON EVERY PATIENT AT EVERY MINUTE OF THE DAY
13. Write good progress notes. ALWAYS include: temp, I&O, labs, studies, path
14. Be outgoing but not annoying
15. Know youre role...you are a medical student. Believe it or not, the service WILL go on without you

JP this is amazing advice. I really appreciate it!!!

 

[95439]

Ouch!!! Here are two my favorite Ralph quotes:

"The doctor said I wouldn't have so many nose bleeds if I kept my finger outta there."

"Then, the doctor told me that BOTH my eyes were lazy! And that's why it was the best summer ever."

How about "So......do you like....stuff?" or "Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!"