What comes to mind when you think of pre meds who think volunteering is beneath them?

[HomeSkool]

Adcom people demand volunteering so you gotta play the game to win, I guess.

It would be a de facto requirement even if it weren't an official one. Ever heard of game theory? If not, here's a primer:

Goro and LizzyM make products that satisfy the same consumer need, cost the same amount to make and market, etc. Market research shows that people will pay up to $8 for the product, and Goro and LizzyM must charge at least $5 to turn a profit. If they both price their products the same way, they'll split the consumer market 50/50. If one uses price to undercut the other, that person will get all of the market. Let's assume 100 consumers total.
- Scenario 1: Goro and LizzyM collude to sell their products for $8. Each of them sells 50 units and makes $400, which they then spend on legal fees because their collusion was illegal.
- Scenario 2: Goro and LizzyM each sell their product for $8 without collusion. They each make $400.
- Scenario 3: One sells the product for $5 and makes $500, the other prices it at $8 and makes $0.
- Scenario 4: They both sell the product for $5 and make $250 each.

Game theory shows that scenario 4 will, in fact, be the logical outcome. If they were to start out at scenario 2, one of them would eventually say, "Hey, I can increase my profits by 25% by undercutting my competitor!" As savvy businesspeople, they both see the writing on the wall and just sell the product for $5 in the first place.

Now apply game theory to med school admissions. If all applicants refused to volunteer, adcoms would have no choice but to accept applicants with no volunteering experience. But sooner or later, one applicant would say, "Hey, I can get a leg up on everyone else by volunteering!" And so the snowball starts rolling.

Bottom line: volunteering will always be a requirement for med school admissions, whether adcoms formally require it or not.

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[chemdoctor]

Very few people would volunteer if it weren't on the application. Not gonna lie though, when most people DO volunteer and get the experience of helping others, it does give a strong sense of appreciation and pride. You just helped make someone's day better. YOU were their source of support and what made them smile.

Try volunteering in Hospice, or serving food to poor people. Sure many won't do it Bc they genuinely WANT to, but when they DO, they feel good regardless

 

[chemdoctor]

Also @Goro i would totally take Orgo and Physics. Both in my opinion, are better than Bio

Though Orgo is stressful, it's still an interesting class.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I believe the pre-med process (as well as other types of competitive graduate schools) have sadly ruined the meaning of volunteering. It is something that people should do out of the goodness of their hearts for (mostly) altruistic reasons. What a lot of people lose sight of in this process is that volunteering is supposed to be something that people do by choice. Therefore, if someone chooses to volunteer, then that should be respected and we should look kindly upon that person. On the contrary, if someone chooses not to volunteer, then we shouldn't have any negative feelings toward them. So far, I have met a total of three people that take part in extensive volunteering since I started college in 2004. Two of them work at my former employer, and are not pre-meds. One of them is in medical school right now, and he is heavily involved in his church (Latter Day Saints).

The most generous and friendliest people I personally know do not have any volunteer commitments. This is okay and whether or not they choose to volunteer in their spare time is up to them and doesn't reflect on them as a person. You can be a good person without volunteering. On the contrary, one of the nastiest people I met while I was a pre-med was actually an elderly volunteer at the ED I volunteered at. He was a very nasty gentleman and not someone I would like to be friends with. I don't care if he volunteered 3000 hours there, that doesn't make him a genuinely good person.

Now with all of this said, volunteering as a pre-med in the clinical setting is very different than doing non-clinical volunteering (at least not the cliche stuff). As a pre-med, I was treated like garbage, and I'm guessing this is because after years of countless pre-meds coming in and "volunteering" with piss poor attitudes, the staff end up treating pre-meds poorly. This is completely unacceptable! Whether the person is a pre-med or some 80 year old lady, there is absolutely no excuse to treat anyone that is freely giving their time away like garbage regardless of their motives for being there. Generally speaking, non-clinical volunteering is more enjoyable since you can actually tailor it to your interests. To this day, I do non-clinical volunteering and it's fun. The problem is that these are generally more sporadic experiences so it's hard to rack up a considerable number of hours.

All in all, volunteering is good and all, but no one should be judged based on whether they do it or not. Also, all volunteers should be treated with respect and dignity, whether they are pre-meds or your grandma. As long as you have the endless cycles of pre-meds with a piss poor attitude and staff that treat all pre-meds like crap, you'll have the kind of attitude the OP has mentioned prevail.

 

[Goro]

It would be a de facto requirement even if it weren't an official one. Ever heard of game theory? If not, here's a primer:

Goro and LizzyM make products that satisfy the same consumer need, cost the same amount to make and market, etc. Market research shows that people will pay up to $8 for the product, and Goro and LizzyM must charge at least $5 to turn a profit. If they both price their products the same way, they'll split the consumer market 50/50. If one uses price to undercut the other, that person will get all of the market. Let's assume 100 consumers total.
- Scenario 1: Goro and LizzyM collude to sell their products for $8. Each of them sells 50 units and makes $400, which they then spend on legal fees because their collusion was illegal.
- Scenario 2: Goro and LizzyM each sell their product for $8 without collusion. They each make $400.
- Scenario 3: One sells the product for $5 and makes $500, the other prices it at $8 and makes $0.
- Scenario 4: They both sell the product for $5 and make $250 each.

Game theory shows that scenario 4 will, in fact, be the logical outcome. If they were to start out at scenario 2, one of them would eventually say, "Hey, I can increase my profits by 25% by undercutting my competitor!" As savvy businesspeople, they both see the writing on the wall and just sell the product for $5 in the first place.

Now apply game theory to med school admissions. If all applicants refused to volunteer, adcoms would have no choice but to accept applicants with no volunteering experience. But sooner or later, one applicant would say, "Hey, I can get a leg up on everyone else by volunteering!" And so the snowball starts rolling.

Bottom line: volunteering will always be a requirement for med school admissions, whether adcoms formally require it or not.

To follow up my learned colleagues comments, here is what one med school has to say about volunteering. Note that they use the word recommended, and this is unfortunate, because these really, truly are requirements, and for good reason. Here, U UT explains why you need volunteer. Are you going to argue with them?
Admissions Recommendations - U of U School of Medicine - | University of Utah

KEY paragraph: We consider how you balance outside activities and responsibilities with school work to be an indicator of your ability to deal with the rigors of life as a physician. The committee is interested in your motivation for attending medical school.

What would be the alternative is volunteering etc wasn't required? Pre-meds are a sea of academic clones. First come, first serve? A lottery?

 

[Lawpy]

To follow up my learned colleagues comments, here is what one med school has to say about volunteering. Note that they use the word recommended, and this is unfortunate, because these really, truly are requirements, and for good reason. Here, U UT explains why you need volunteer. Are you going to argue with them?
Admissions Recommendations - U of U School of Medicine - | University of Utah

KEY paragraph: We consider how you balance outside activities and responsibilities with school work to be an indicator of your ability to deal with the rigors of life as a physician. The committee is interested in your motivation for attending medical school.

What would be the alternative is volunteering etc wasn't required? Pre-meds are a sea of academic clones. First come, first serve? A lottery?

If volunteering wasn't required, I guess those with strong academic metrics, research and leadership would be accepted. Contrary to what SDN says, it's very rare to get super high MCAT scores, and having super productive research and meaningful leadership are also rare.

Although the number of applicants having strong academics, research and leadership is probably significantly less than the total nunber of medical school seats, so some medical schools may be underenrolled.

 

[Goro]

If volunteering wasn't required, I guess those with strong academic metrics, research and leadership would be accepted. Contrary to what SDN says, it's very rare to get super high MCAT scores, and having super productive research and meaningful leadership are also rare.

Although the number of applicants having strong academics, research and leadership is probably significantly less than the total nunber of medical school seats, so some medical schools may be underenrolled.

Be that as it may, I note that you didn't answer my question.

 

[Lawpy]

Be that as it may, I note that you didn't answer my question.

What would be the alternative is volunteering etc wasn't required? Pre-meds are a sea of academic clones. First come, first serve? A lottery?

? I thought i answered the above. If volunteering wasn't required, I don't think anything much will change. Academic metrics continue to stratify applicants so those with highest numbers continue to get selected. Research and leadership experiences would also make the selection process even finer because having productive experiences in both are hard to get.

I don't see why first come/first serve or lottery would apply when applicants can be stratified by normal means.

 

[MD-2021]

Do you think that these people will make it through their rotations or clinical years?

Yes.

 

[Planes2Doc]

? I thought i answered the above. If volunteering wasn't required, I don't think anything much will change. Academic metrics continue to stratify applicants so those with highest numbers continue to get selected. Research and leadership experiences would also make the selection process even finer because having productive experiences in both are hard to get.

I don't see why first come/first serve or lottery would apply when applicants can be stratified by normal means.

On the contrary, except for a handful of schools, volunteering is NOT required. It’s a very well-known unwritten rule though, essentially making it required. This does create a very interesting unlevel playing field based on one's morals and how far they are willing to push it. Since there isn't any oversight, a pre-med can do anything during their verifiable hours. This can range from not being present at all (based on the earlier example of signing in and leaving, then coming back later to sign out) to being an honorary member of the hospital team. If volunteering were an actual requirement with oversight that would verify hours and that the pre-med is actually doing what they are supposed to do, then I'm guessing you would see the following:

1. Hours will drop precipitously to more realistic levels (probably nice round numbers like 100, 150, 200 hours or so) since pre-meds can no longer fake their hours or completely slack off or use it as study/shadow time.
2. The quality of work during these shorter hours will go up since there will be oversight (a friend told me that pre-meds were never trained to do administrative tasks at his hospital versus elderly volunteers because they are so unreliable).
3. The cream of the crop applicants will still manage their time well and end up with more activities and hours anyhow.

 

[Planes2Doc]

I have no problem with volunteering being required. Or research. Or underwater basketweaving. ADCOMs can set their requirements (both actual and implied), and they have every right to do so. What I DO have a problem with is holier-than-thou premeds who think that anyone who doesn't volunteer, and do it wholly altruistically, is a baaaaaaaad person.

Here's my story for example. I was a non-trad. I worked full time while taking a full time undergrad course load because I had a wife and children to support. In addition I did all of the research, shadowing, and so on. I had very little time at home and it was a massive strain on our family. My wife and I both understood that I would need volunteer work on my app to have a decent chance of getting in, and so I went about doing the requisite 3 or 4 hours of volunteer work per week. Often times this ended up taking away my only night off for the week. Ironically I would head out and miss yet another evening with my children, so I could go volunteer at a mentoring organization and spend time with someone else's children. My kids didn't have their dad at home when they needed him, but by golly someone else's kids did.

Now perhaps it was all just too much and I shouldn't have even gone to med school. And that's a different subject for a different day. But the point is, had volunteering not been "mandatory", there is no way in hell I would have been leaving my wife and little kids for some of the very small amount of time I got with them in order to do volunteer work. I hardly think that makes me a bad person. I think it would have made me a better husband and father. And while I did actually enjoy my volunteer work, it was not worth the sacrifice it required from my family aside from its usefulness in getting me into medical school.

The moral of the story kids is that the world is not black and white. Not all people who volunteer are good, and not all people who don't volunteer are bad.

 

[814965]

.

 

[de Ribas]

Totally disagree with this. I myself don't have a particularly strong passion for helping the undeserved, but a huge number of my classmates genuinely do. I spend a lot of time volunteering within the communities I am a part of (school, church), I do it because I love it and want to give back, not because it'll look good for residency programs.

He said most, not all.

 

[Lannister]

He said most, not all.

Like I said, a huge number of my classmates have a genuine passion for volunteering. I'd say that negates the idea that "most" medical students only volunteer because it benefits them.

 

[de Ribas]

I disagree. I'm doing a physics minor

You are the only one then.

 

[Lawpy]

On the contrary, except for a handful of schools, volunteering is NOT required. It’s a very well-known unwritten rule though, essentially making it required. This does create a very interesting unlevel playing field based on one's morals and how far they are willing to push it. Since there isn't any oversight, a pre-med can do anything during their verifiable hours. This can range from not being present at all (based on the earlier example of signing in and leaving, then coming back later to sign out) to being an honorary member of the hospital team. If volunteering were an actual requirement with oversight that would verify hours and that the pre-med is actually doing what they are supposed to do, then I'm guessing you would see the following:

1. Hours will drop precipitously to more realistic levels (probably nice round numbers like 100, 150, 200 hours or so) since pre-meds can no longer fake their hours or completely slack off or use it as study/shadow time.
2. The quality of work during these shorter hours will go up since there will be oversight (a friend told me that pre-meds were never trained to do administrative tasks at his hospital versus elderly volunteers because they are so unreliable).
3. The cream of the crop applicants will still manage their time well and end up with more activities and hours anyhow.

I generally agree with this. But somehow I think applicants can get into medical school without any volunteering at all. Consider someone with a 3.9/99th percentile MCAT with strong/productive research, strong leadership and clinical work experience... but this applicant has zero volunteering. I think this applicant will be accepted by a Top 20.

Having no clinical experience at all is a problem since applicants need to provide evidence why they want to pursue medicine (and not research). But applicants can get accepted with no volunteering.

 

[de Ribas]

I generally agree with this. But somehow I think applicants can get into medical school without any volunteering at all. Consider someone with a 3.9/99th percentile MCAT with strong/productive research, strong leadership and clinical work experience... but this applicant has zero volunteering. I think this applicant will be accepted by a Top 20.

Having no clinical experience at all is a problem since applicants need to provide evidence why they want to pursue medicine (and not research). But applicants can get accepted with no volunteering.

I agree too. But, I would guess most would still have at least some kind of volunteering experience.

 

[Goro]

I generally agree with this. But somehow I think applicants can get into medical school without any volunteering at all. Consider someone with a 3.9/99th percentile MCAT with strong/productive research, strong leadership and clinical work experience... but this applicant has zero volunteering. I think this applicant will be accepted by a Top 20.

Having no clinical experience at all is a problem since applicants need to provide evidence why they want to pursue medicine (and not research). But applicants can get accepted with no volunteering.

If they do, they're outliers. Every post on SDN I've seen from Stanford/Harvard class applicants lamenting being shut out over an app cycle were either late, or lacked ECs.

Of those SDNers (admittedly a small n) who have shared with me their success stories about getting into Really Top Schools, what they have in common is hundreds, if not even 1000s of hours of clinical exposure and.or non-clinical volunteering.

Let's ask the wise @LizzyM and @gyngyn (since their schools are in the stratosphere), what they would make of such a candidate!

 

[Lawpy]

Like I said, a huge number of my classmates have a genuine passion for volunteering. I'd say that negates the idea that "most" medical students only volunteer because it benefits them.

You are using experiences of your school to disprove a general assertion. The students at your school may like volunteering, but this could also be self-selecting (i.e. your school only accepted applicants with a genuine interest in volunteering to fit with its mission).

 

[Lawpy]

If they do, they're outliers. Every post on SDN I've seen from Stanford/Harvard class applicants lamenting being shut out over an app cycle were either late, or lacked ECs.

Of those SDNers (admittedly a small n) who have shared with me their success stories about getting into Really Top Schools, what they have in common is hundreds, if not even 1000s of hours of clinical exposure and.or non-clinical volunteering.

Let's ask the wise @LizzyM and @gyngyn (since their schools are in the stratosphere), what they would make of such a candidate!

Someone with zero volunteering but has a strong application profile doesn't lack ECs. Not getting in because of applying late is a separate issue.

I don't know what SDNers said top schools want hundreds to thousands of clinical experience/volunteering hours because the many SDNers here who got into those schools had 100-250 hours of clinical experience/volunteering but had very very strong numbers, research experience, leadership, athletics, unique activities etc.

I mean I read in your interview guide that Stanford cares heavily about research, so much that it's okay to outright say you are interested in research rather than medicine.

I do agree that having volunteering helps but I don't think not having any is as severe of a hindrance provided the rest of the application is very strong and compelling.

 

[de Ribas]

There are people who volunteer because it is required for some reasons, there are those who volunteer because they enjoy and some that understand that they have to give back to a community. Some may have combined reasons.

When I volunteered in various settings, I have met people who have volunteered there for 5, 15 and even 35 years just because they like to volunteer. I was pleasantly shocked. When I see other people volunteer out of their kind heart, it motivates me to volunteer as well and give back to my community. I like people who care about others and care about their communities.

TBH, Some volunteering experinces I did to put on my resume but I have thousands of hours of other volunteering experieces that I have started since I was like 15. I continue to volunteer in several organizations because I enjoy what I do.

 

[Lannister]

You are using experiences of your school to disprove a general assertion. The students at your school may like volunteering, but this could also be self-selecting (i.e. your school only accepted applicants with a genuine interest in volunteering to fit with its mission).

Fair enough, but I don't think there's any reason to assume that my school likes volunteering any more than other schools. If I went to Rush, it'd be a different story.

 

[bananafish94]

I honestly think one of the biggest mistakes premeds make is going for volunteer opportunities that are too cookie-cutter, because those are the ones that have scores of premeds rotating through them going through the motions until they get the magical number of hours they need to be competitive for medical school. I'll be the first to admit that some of my volunteering in college was to "check the boxes," as they say. And I really didn't like it. Much of this is because I didn't really have the opportunity to make a difference. I certainly enjoyed parts of my volunteering at a hospital, but it's honestly a little difficult to get excited about re-stocking supply carts or making beds in the ER. Did I help out at all? ...maybe? A lot of the time I felt like I was just in the way, though.

But I reached a point in my college career where I decided that I had done enough extra-curricular stuff to be competitive for medical school and I wanted to spend more time doing things that were personally fulfilling for me. For example, I joined a club where we mentored elementary school kids just because it sounded like something I would enjoy. And I started doing more things like that. These ended up being the experiences that I actually wrote about and that I was asked about on interviews. Volunteering is an absolutely wonderful thing when you seek it out because you want to do it. I love volunteering in medical school because I can do it whenever I want (I don't have to shoehorn something into an exam week and get it done as quickly as possible) and I actually feel like I now have a skill-set that allows me to legitimately help.

 

[jazzmetal]

Stanford cares heavily about research

A former Stanford adcom shared some admissions criteria with my postbac class once; he said they didn't give a hoot about serving the underserved. You'd have to be pretty confident of getting into Stanford though.

 

[boogiecousins94]

A former Stanford adcom shared some admissions criteria with my postbac class once; he said they didn't give a hoot about serving the underserved. You'd have to be pretty confident of getting into Stanford though.

A former Yale adcom told me the same thing but idk if thats more of a person-dependent belief or if the admissions committee as a whole thinks that way. I think there must be some people who value it at Stanford

 

[jazzmetal]

A former Yale adcom told me the same thing but idk if thats more of a person-dependent belief or if the admissions committee as a whole thinks that way. I think there must be some people who value it at Stanford

Yes, I would hope that's true! This particular person handed out a list of criteria that he said Stanford used when he was there, and community service was not on it. Not that there's no one at Stanford who values it, just that it's not part of their mission. He was a little sheepish when he said that, too...

I think the challenge is that no one wants to look like a box-checker, but each school has a different mission so if you're like most people who have to "apply broadly" then it's hard to avoid checking as many boxes as you can. Community service is a pretty common box, for sure, as is clinical volunteering.

 

[studpremed]

I found clinical volunteering (without mentioning other volunteering services) rewarding and informative and most pre-meds I've talked to feel the same way. You won't know what you're getting into unless you work in the field and clinical volunteering was a low bar entry for me to get that experience. That being said, I can see why people feel volunteering is a box checker. I personally feel a month of clinical volunteering is more than enough to experience the hospital setting and volunteers get little to any responsibility besides feeling in the way. Talking to patients is definitely a plus.

For other volunteering services I try to volunteer in places where I know I will enjoy.

 

[Spectar]

I know of someone who is published on a paper in a lab they never worked in- the PI is their parent but has a different last name so nobody probably knows. Yes I get that they could've helped or something but I find it very unlikely since they said they would never want to work in their parents lab because "its boring"

What happens when this student fills out Fafsa for institutional aid/scholarships?

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

What happens when this student fills out Fafsa for institutional aid/scholarships?

Dependent claims

 

[Spectar]

Dependent claims

? Can you explain what that is

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

? Can you explain what that is

Parents claim their children as dependents before reaching a certain age

 

[Spectar]

Parents claim their children as dependents before reaching a certain age

I meant in terms of my post. Specifically when a student gets a letter from their parent who had a different last name in an attempt to deceive medical school admission (especially if it came up during an interview). If a student has to fill out fafsa with their parents info (which is required for institutional scholarships) that school would have found out that the student lied. I'm asking how that would go down.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I meant in terms of my post. Specifically when a student gets a letter from their parent who had a different last name in an attempt to deceive medical school admission (especially if it came up during an interview). If a student has to fill out fafsa with their parents info (which is required for institutional scholarships) that school would have found out that the student lied. I'm asking how that would go down.

I'm guessing it'll most likely go unnoticed. In order for that person to get caught, an admissions reviewer will have to look at the name of the publication, remember it, and then recognize it on the FAFSA, and that's even assuming that the same person both reviews the application and FAFSA.

 

[JonathanHusky]

I agree too. But, I would guess most would still have at least some kind of volunteering experience.

most may but there are some that get in w/ 0 volunteering hours... lol one of my best friends is at a top 10 school w/ phenomenal GPA/MCAT/research, some shadowing but NO clinical or non-clinical volunteering, still don't know how he did it ... so i guess volunteering isn't as important if you've got the stats to stand out, at some schools at least...

 

[de Ribas]

one of my best friends is at a top 10 school w/ phenomenal GPA/MCAT/r

if you've got the stats to stand out

lol, but at top 10 schools everyone got "phenomenal" stats.

 

[JonathanHusky]

lol, but at top 10 schools everyone got "phenomenal" stats.

true but i thought at least they'd have some volunteering to supplement that but guess not

 

[On_The_Way_Up]

The standard techniques of pre-med sociopaths (Volume I):

1. Pre-med signs in at hospital for volunteering; goes home; comes back to hospital to sign out -- does this every weekend for several semesters straight.
2. Pre-med signs up for 15 college clubs, runs for a leadership position in every one of them, and then abruptly stops attending all club meetings.
3. Pre-med pretends that he conducted 1000+ hours of groundbreaking research with professor... who's actually a family friend working in academia; family friend writes glowing letter about the student and his (fake) contributions.
4. Pre-med drastically inflates shadowing hours on application; physician that was being shadowed is family friend and vouches for him.
5. Pre-med hires a penniless English Literature PhD student to write beautiful essays for him about his fake volunteering and shadowing experiences.
6. Pre-med starts a small non-profit that's registered and has an admirable mission statement on its website, with photographs and testimonials... but, in reality, the non-profit was defunct from the moment of its inception.

(True stories. These individuals are now MS2s and MS3s at respectable medical schools.)

Unfortunately some of them still become doctors and will make bad doctors. I’ve had surgeries playing football so I’ve seen my fair share of doctors who don’t care and aren’t people friendly.