What considerations will I have if I were to go back being a Pre-Dent student

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Molar Whisperer

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I've been a dentist for 22 years. From my observations, I see myself in the top 55% of dentists in terms of wealth accumulation and income (I have about 9 months of emergency funds). I'm sure there are plenty that make bank...a famous dentist in Seattle with his learning institute has a lot of toys the rich and famous would be jealous of. Back in the early 90's, there were generic stories of how toxic many lucrative careers can be. Unfortunately, those toxic stories are getting more widespread and deeper. I've encounter a few instances where dentists had other careers and I would listen to their stories. Despite some dentists bad mouthing each other, dentistry is less toxic than many other professions.

In the US, it is required to have informed consent prior to any invasive procedure(s). I wished I had informed consent prior to Dental School. What other career options would I have other than Dental? My physician father always instilled in me on being a doctor because you won't starve (We are first generation immigrants). After seeing the stress and the long hours he had to work with, being a medical doctor wasn't for me. Around that time a childhood friend went to a fairly young orthodontist who traveled to my hometown every Tuesdays and Thursdays. Being naive, I thought he only worked those days and assumed he had a nice lifestyle. So I was blindly set on being an orthodontist and see no other options.

If I were to go back to my HS and college days, I would like to shadow more industries than be blind to just dental. I grew up in a poor, out of the way small town and it was hard to shadow more industries. I was caught off guard by the nightmares and BS of private practice after Dental School while I was in the USAF. Instead of avoiding private practice as the result, I wished to find mentors to help advise on managing those BS. There are too many days where I wish I wasn't a dentist (don't we all). I'm intrigued on how CPAs are mostly comfortable financially at my age. I wished I had some early insights on passive income. I really wished I could have shadow some of them and to see if I can manage their BS and nightmares. Everyone's road to life is different. I felt so deprived of my upbringing in a small undesirable town. I did mention in other posts that undesirable locations have less dentists and maybe have better practice opportunities. My childhood dentist as well as my dad wanted me to come home and practice there. I'm Asian American and I rather make less money than live there. My kids and family are thriving at our location now. Nobody calls us "Ch__ks go back to where you came from." My brother was ashamed of being Asian and it negatively impacted his self worth. So my background may be different, but hopefully this post may provide some insights.

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In college, I've realized there are careers which offer an eye popping amount of money outside of healthcare. For example, I go to a top 5 target undergrad for FAANG+ companies. Some of my friends are getting 6 figure offers right out of the gate (total compensation: salary plus eventual stock options etc.). They are 22 years old by the way, and already starting out at 6 figures! In 10 years by the time they are 30+, if they stick it out and perform well, they can go from L1-3 engineer to L5+ at which point their total compensation will be $400k-1.5 million+ (300k base salary + 500k+ stocks or bonuses). Keep in mind, these guys also didn't have to pay 400k+ for school.

What's my point? Dentistry attracts some of the highest achieving individuals, and I believe that many of us have the potential to make this kind of eye popping money outside of dentistry if we put in the same effort that we do to get into dental school. Me personally, I'm sticking with dentistry because it's not all about money for me, I actually want to enjoy what I do. But if I was just in it for the money, I would have switched to CS, or tried to get into a top 20 MBA so I could break into high finance.
 
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You mentioned CPA, but I know a lot of my friends who do business/hired by Big 4/etc work a lot/overtime/are incredibly stressed during tax season. Especially if you aren't good at networking/making good impressions/be affiliated with a school that has a great alumni network/climbing the ladder/etc the money and stress levels don't make the hours worth it. Office politics seems to be huge from my friends in these fields.

From where I went to college, a lot of big money jobs are engineering, especially in oil. However, all my friends who are working in the oil fields who are aware that the field is volatile and try to learn other ways of bringing in income, whether it be investing in stocks or having a property they rent out. Some of them are scared that their job, despite giving them a good salary (and even bigger bonus), that they'll easily be out of a job (gas prices are super lower here right now.. like $1.25/gallon!) due to politics or simply newer graduates with skills they haven't learned yet. I know someone who started off school as a petroleum engineer, got so far in college he couldn't change majors, and decided to go to medical school because he was afraid of only making $ for a few years then getting fired. (There are stories of people with masters in oil related fields yet still are unemployed... :( )

The people I know in comp sci have to continuously job hop and be aware whether or not their job is going to fire someone (and hire a new grad with new skills) or close down because it's a small company. Others have to keep their skill set up to par (which imo is the same for dentistry with CE, etc) either through their employer (maybe through a contract) or on their own down time. I imagine this involves a lot of negotiation with raises and benefits when job hopping occurs so often.

I think every profession has pros and cons. I def do think the idea that lawyers, doctors, dentists were the "Sexy" jobs of the last generation, and that the current "Sexy" jobs of this generation are in tech, computer science, and engineering.
But.. I think dentistry does good work, as is a 'caring' profession after all (not saying that other fields aren't!) and it has its own perks and cons. From my high school days, a lot of people were thinking engineering, computer science, pre-med, accounting/finance if they were good with numbers/human resources or marketing if they weren't, and on a lower scale, law/politics, or hard science/research heavy phd.
 
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You mentioned CPA, but I know a lot of my friends who do business/hired by Big 4/etc work a lot/overtime/are incredibly stressed during tax season. Especially if you aren't good at networking/making good impressions/be affiliated with a school that has a great alumni network/climbing the ladder/etc the money and stress levels don't make the hours worth it. Office politics seems to be huge from my friends in these fields.

From where I went to college, a lot of big money jobs are engineering, especially in oil. However, all my friends who are working in the oil fields who are aware that the field is volatile and try to learn other ways of bringing in income, whether it be investing in stocks or having a property they rent out. Some of them are scared that their job, despite giving them a good salary (and even bigger bonus), that they'll easily be out of a job (gas prices are super lower here right now.. like $1.25/gallon!) due to politics or simply newer graduates with skills they haven't learned yet. I know someone who started off school as a petroleum engineer, got so far in college he couldn't change majors, and decided to go to medical school because he was afraid of only making $ for a few years then getting fired. (There are stories of people with masters in oil related fields yet still are unemployed... :( )

The people I know in comp sci have to continuously job hop and be aware whether or not their job is going to fire someone (and hire a new grad with new skills) or close down because it's a small company. Others have to keep their skill set up to par (which imo is the same for dentistry with CE, etc) either through their employer (maybe through a contract) or on their own down time. I imagine this involves a lot of negotiation with raises and benefits when job hopping occurs so often.

I think every profession has pros and cons. I def do think the idea that lawyers, doctors, dentists were the "Sexy" jobs of the last generation, and that the current "Sexy" jobs of this generation are in tech, computer science, and engineering.
But.. I think dentistry does good work, as is a 'caring' profession after all (not saying that other fields aren't!) and it has its own perks and cons. From my high school days, a lot of people were thinking engineering, computer science, pre-med, accounting/finance if they were good with numbers/human resources or marketing if they weren't, and on a lower scale, law/politics, or hard science/research heavy phd.

I've heard of a dentist from Hawaii that moved to texas and be a petroleum engineer and he is WAY happier...
 
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I've heard of a dentist from Hawaii that moved to texas and be a petroleum engineer and he is WAY happier...
That's the problem with anecdotal evidence - everyone's situation is different
 
My intrigue with the CPA profession is their knowledge of different income vehicles such as passive income, tax friendly investments, efficient business strategies. My very happy CPA friend who used to be making way more as a a petroleum engineer chatted with me for hours a while back. He's in his mid 50s and owns 11 or so commercial properties. We dentists all have bad days and I tend to see someone else's greener grass and just imagine myself being familiar with what he knows. His first response about dentistry is our ultra high costs and overhead. My disappointment is that I wished I knew about these vehicles of income early instead of being blind to all options because I want to slow down in my 50s. I have a colleague who was an accountant at Wall Street and told me so much toxic stories that I understood why he got out. I don't envy CPAs' (young ones) stress. I envy their financial knowledge. We dentists can utilize those knowledge and retire comfortably. At this stage of my life, I'm unable to take the necessary financial risks to attain.
 
I've been a dentist for 22 years. From my observations, I see myself in the top 55% of dentists in terms of wealth accumulation and income (I have about 9 months of emergency funds). I'm sure there are plenty that make bank...a famous dentist in Seattle with his learning institute has a lot of toys the rich and famous would be jealous of. Back in the early 90's, there were generic stories of how toxic many lucrative careers can be. Unfortunately, those toxic stories are getting more widespread and deeper. I've encounter a few instances where dentists had other careers and I would listen to their stories. Despite some dentists bad mouthing each other, dentistry is less toxic than many other professions.

In the US, it is required to have informed consent prior to any invasive procedure(s). I wished I had informed consent prior to Dental School. What other career options would I have other than Dental? My physician father always instilled in me on being a doctor because you won't starve (We are first generation immigrants). After seeing the stress and the long hours he had to work with, being a medical doctor wasn't for me. Around that time a childhood friend went to a fairly young orthodontist who traveled to my hometown every Tuesdays and Thursdays. Being naive, I thought he only worked those days and assumed he had a nice lifestyle. So I was blindly set on being an orthodontist and see no other options.

If I were to go back to my HS and college days, I would like to shadow more industries than be blind to just dental. I grew up in a poor, out of the way small town and it was hard to shadow more industries. I was caught off guard by the nightmares and BS of private practice after Dental School while I was in the USAF. Instead of avoiding private practice as the result, I wished to find mentors to help advise on managing those BS. There are too many days where I wish I wasn't a dentist (don't we all). I'm intrigued on how CPAs are mostly comfortable financially at my age. I wished I had some early insights on passive income. I really wished I could have shadow some of them and to see if I can manage their BS and nightmares. Everyone's road to life is different. I felt so deprived of my upbringing in a small undesirable town. I did mention in other posts that undesirable locations have less dentists and maybe have better practice opportunities. My childhood dentist as well as my dad wanted me to come home and practice there. I'm Asian American and I rather make less money than live there. My kids and family are thriving at our location now. Nobody calls us "Ch__ks go back to where you came from." My brother was ashamed of being Asian and it negatively impacted his self worth. So my background may be different, but hopefully this post may provide some insights.

This is an honest question, not trying to be snarky or rude, but what other jobs offer similar autonomy, make, $160k+ and don’t require you to be married to work? (Or something with a similar salary working 4-4.5 days a week?)
 
Try working 3-4 days a week and spend that 5th day working on passive income/ CE/reading WCI. Never too late to learn how to run a business/ daytrade/ side hustle

career is what you make of it
 
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This is an honest question, not trying to be snarky or rude, but what other jobs offer similar autonomy, make, $160k+ and don’t require you to be married to work? (Or something with a similar salary working 4-4.5 days a week?)

Great question. IMO, all lucrative careers require working long hrs early on. There are some knowledge that most other professionals like engineers, medical doctors, and dentists like myself may not know. That is how to efficiently accumulate wealth so that you may have a choice to slow down. My brother and I were so focused on the sciences that we assumed to that if we just do our jobs well and work hard, everything would fall into place. We both do not have spouses that work and we both have no passive income. About 10 years ago, I was one of the top dogs in my DCO and I thought I was immuned to bad times. I was working 3.5 days...3 days one week, 4 days the other. My neighbors thought I'm semi-retired at late 30's early 40s. I was never trying to impress the Jones but we had kids and my wife wanted to get her "dream car" which was a Lexus SUV. Thinking back I should have done more research and purchase some income property...about the time the housing market crashed. Hind site right? I'm not saying I should get into a different career but I was so foolishly blinded.
 
Try working 3-4 days a week and spend that 5th day working on passive income/ CE/reading WCI. Never too late to learn how to run a business/ daytrade/ side hustle

career is what you make of it

You are spot on. I have a CPA friend and we would chat for hours. I'm not trying to discourage but with minimal investment (only what I could afford) for a one unit rental, the numbers do not show any financial advantage. Multiple sources recommend, the most efficient ROI is purchasing something like a 4 unit quadplex or larger depending on the market and location. One may group together with family and friends to purchase that...I don't know how the dynamic and splitting income and expenses would be. There are a lot of unknown risks for me at my age 49 and I don't want to risk high debt into my 60's although attractive opportunities may arise during this crisis.
 
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You are spot on. I have a CPA friend and we would chat for hours. I'm not trying to discourage but with minimal investment (only what I could afford) for a one unit rental, the numbers do not show any financial advantage. Multiple sources recommend, the most efficient ROI is purchasing something like a 4 unit quadplex or larger depending on the market and location. One may group together with family and friends to purchase that...I don't know how the dynamic and splitting income and expenses would be. There are a lot of unknown risks for me at my age 49 and I don't want to risk high debt into my 60's although attractive opportunities may arise during this crisis.

I agree with you on one point. Your CPA friend definitely has more knowledge about "passive income" properties than a typical dentist. Most dentists are not equipped nor trained to make money from investment properties. Of course there are always the outliers. I'm talking about the average dentist. Back in my late 30's, early 40's ... I was making bank in my ortho practice. I foolishly decided to buy some vacation condos (two of them). One turned out OK, but the other was a complete bust. I lost money on it. As I had stated in another post .... at the same time .... I bought some real estate and started a 2nd ortho practice from scratch. Then the 2008 recession occurred. It was rough times for me. Add aligners and DIY aligners to the scene and my income levels never recovered to my past peaks. As we speak ... I am finalizing the sale of the only commercial real estate property I have left. I will come out ahead, but not a huge number. The profit on this investment purchased years ago does not come close to the sweat, energy, tears, stress, time commitment, fights with the wife, dealing with the tenant (who recently asked for rent forbearance), etc. etc. etc. I'm not at all looking forward to next years tax bill on this sale. The longer you own a property .... the more you depreciate it and then when it comes to selling it .... profit is taxed. I already know what it is since I've discussed it with my acct. A 1031 tax exchange is not going to happen.

Point is. Novice or recreational real estate investors are taking chances. The real estate investor PROS know what they are doing. They do it for living. We do dentistry.

You're 49. I'm 57. Time and low stress is EVERYTHING to me. You are approaching that age quickly. At this point in your life .... you should be happy with your decision to be a dentist and make the best of it. Dentistry is far from the worst job in the world. I'm sure there are many out there that are envious of us.
 
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I agree with you on one point. Your CPA friend definitely has more knowledge about "passive income" properties than a typical dentist. Most dentists are not equipped nor trained to make money from investment properties. Of course there are always the outliers. I'm talking about the average dentist. Back in my late 30's, early 40's ... I was making bank in my ortho practice. I foolishly decided to buy some vacation condos (two of them). One turned out OK, but the other was a complete bust. I lost money on it. As I had stated in another post .... at the same time .... I bought some real estate and started a 2nd ortho practice from scratch. Then the 2008 recession occurred. It was rough times for me. Add aligners and DIY aligners to the scene and my income levels never recovered to my past peaks. As we speak ... I am finalizing the sale of the only commercial real estate property I have left. I will come out ahead, but not a huge number. The profit on this investment purchased years ago does not come close to the sweat, energy, tears, stress, time commitment, fights with the wife, dealing with the tenant (who recently asked for rent forbearance), etc. etc. etc. I'm not at all looking forward to next years tax bill on this sale. The longer you own a property .... the more you depreciate it and then when it comes to selling it .... profit is taxed. I already know what it is since I've discussed it with my acct. A 1031 tax exchange is not going to happen.

Point is. Novice or recreational real estate investors are taking chances. The real estate investor PROS know what they are doing. They do it for living. We do dentistry.

You're 49. I'm 57. Time and low stress is EVERYTHING to me. You are approaching that age quickly. At this point in your life .... you should be happy with your decision to be a dentist and make the best of it. Dentistry is far from the worst job in the world. I'm sure there are many out there that are envious of us.

I must count my blessings. Thanks for sharing your story. Sorry you had those stressful events and my venting sounds like a__. All of my displeasure is my fault. I knew to start early because I want to slow down later. I tried to do what I thought was right when I was younger...work hard and save. I lived with my folks until I was 31 and out of the USAF. I had a $4 Walmart flip phone until a couple of years ago...I know I'm a loser when I use it at the dental conventions. At this point I'm scared of taking any risks. I almost bought a 1.2 mil practice 3 yrs ago after I was fired from my successful run at the DMO. Wf didn't want me to buy it as stated at another post, I rather live modestly than have stress with her. The financial positives I have is no student loans, will pay off my house in 8 years, have 9 months emergency savings, and so so $350k (lot lower now with Covid) retirement funds. I naively and foolishly think the grass is always greener when I see undesirable Medicaid patients on Saturdays (they actually don't show up on Saturdays but still). I also foolishly envy the savvy individuals with multiple sources of income. But I need to smartly count my blessings as stated above and establish realistic goals.
 
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As part of my counting blessings, I'm still getting paid $700/day waiting for emergency patients to arrive working 4 days, getting paid for 5. I'm enjoying my time on various forums and catching up on my peer-review journals. I don't know how long this gravy train will last but I plan on working fully when they cut any pay.
 
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Proof positive the grass is greener on the other side of the fence.
 
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My intrigue with the CPA profession is their knowledge of different income vehicles such as passive income, tax friendly investments, efficient business strategies. My very happy CPA friend who used to be making way more as a a petroleum engineer chatted with me for hours a while back. He's in his mid 50s and owns 11 or so commercial properties. We dentists all have bad days and I tend to see someone else's greener grass and just imagine myself being familiar with what he knows. His first response about dentistry is our ultra high costs and overhead. My disappointment is that I wished I knew about these vehicles of income early instead of being blind to all options because I want to slow down in my 50s. I have a colleague who was an accountant at Wall Street and told me so much toxic stories that I understood why he got out. I don't envy CPAs' (young ones) stress. I envy their financial knowledge. We dentists can utilize those knowledge and retire comfortably. At this stage of my life, I'm unable to take the necessary financial risks to attain.
You nailed it with this comment. It isn't the job itself, it's the knowledge that is useful.
 
Honestly if I were a dentist with 0 knowledge of real estate, I would just invest in REIT's or other crowdfunded real estate.

Or just skip RE and go equities. You almost cannot mess up with a three fund portfolio over the long term.

I've been reading a bit on White Coat Investor, there's a bunch of dentists on there as well. I'll be honest, doctors are BORING investors hahaha, but it makes sense. When you make a bunch of money, all you really need to do is play it safe, no need to beat the market. Even Warren Buffett himself said SP500 is the way to go for most investors.

RE and other alternative investments are more lucrative if you know what you're doing, less if you don't.
 
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I have foolish and unrealistic expectations when I look for greener pastures. I'll give an example of an unrealistic gain. I was googling a restaurant location in Seattle (not my hometown). Somehow the building specifics came up. It was a 4 suite bldg built in 1997 for $670k. It was sold after the housing crash in 2010 for 4.5 mil. I'm not saying I should have bought the bldg but the possibilities intrigued me.
 
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