What DO schools are most like MD schools?

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by TheNorthWaves, May 9, 2007.

  1. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    Look - here's how I see it (for me).

    What DO schools generally generate students getting the best pick of DO and MD residencies? Although I believe in the OMM stuff as a potential treatment, I don't particularly know if I care to set myself apart based on that.

    IE: right now I don't care whether I'm an MD or a DO - I just want to go to a school where they are most likely to chew me up/spit me out as an excellent physician. Yes, it depends on being a good student. I am one. Therefore I want a good school - and unless the top ones want tons of DO specific volunteer work - I will probably get in with a balanced 29 mcat, 3.48 ugpa and 3.80 ggpa...

    so - anyone have opinions about what DO schools follow the best trends to make me fit the mold as a top notch physician in the US? I know this post sounds naive, but I'd just like some direct answers from people who know. Thanks!
     
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  3. Static Line

    Static Line America's Guard of Honor
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    TROLLTROLLTROLLTROLLTROLL:sleep: +pity+ :bullcrap: :beat: AND FINALLY :thumbdown:
     
  4. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    What are you so afraid of?
    I'm trying to have a real discussion here. If you don't want to be part of it, that's ok with me. I seriously hope your attitude changes a little if you're planning on working with people your whole life...
    I'm not trying to put anybody down. I'm trying to figure where I'd fit in best.
     
  5. Hello. To answer your question, go with the M.D. route. I tried to get accepted at M.D. schools first, then chose the D.O. path. There are many good D.O. schools and the top five ones are probably better than many M.D. schools.
     
  6. Taus

    Taus .
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    I do understand what you're saying....one would be naive to think that all DO students go DO b/c they are gung-ho on the differences....the title of your thread however is what may piss some people off...

    Anyway....the proof is always in the pudding...check out the thread w/ match lists and look up 3rd/4th year rotation sites.....see if those are the types of places/specialties that you would want to be doing. There is no way anyone can realistically tell you which school produces better doctors, but match lists and rotation sites can help show you the oportunities available to students. That being said, even w/ match lists its tough to tell....not everyone desires to be in a big name/prestigious residency or specialty and there is no way to tell who wanted what from a match list
     
  7. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    thanks for the feedback. My title does sound kind of bad, admittedly.
    I will check out those lists. Is there a place where I can see (for free) what the "top" DO schools are (and why they are ranked that way)?

    My concern revolves around the osteopathic nature of setting itself apart from allopathic. I'm not putting down OMM at all. I don't have a personal position on OMM. I know it exists and I'm sure it works. To me, it's another tool in the doctor's bag... i'm just not going crazy over this one form of treatment, you know? I'm crazy about medicine, whether or not it involves OMM... I just want a good residency, that's what really matters to me. I realize some schools focus more on OMM than others - do these schools focus less on other aspects that I would be learning in an allopathic curriculum? I guess what i'm really asking is - what DO school is going to prepare me absolutely the best, without letting a focus on OMM reign king and thus downplay other parts of curriculum? I want to get what I'm paying for.

    I applied to MD schools already and I haven't been getting in (try three rounds). If I got into either, I'd go. I'm just new to the DO thing.
     
  8. Taus

    Taus .
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    no real rankings exist...though many people consider the older/more established schools and most of the state supported schools to be very good.....if you take a look through a few pages on this forum you're likely to find several posts on the topic and will always see differences of opinion on the issue
     
  9. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    I hear PCOM and the one in NJ are really good... I was tempted to apply to VCOM but at the time, they hadn't graduated a class
     
  10. HarveyCushing

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    Taus hit it on the head. The older schools (the original 5) as well as the state schools are usually viewed as the better schools. It totally depends what you are looking for in a school. Are you into research? Does location matter to you? What about being able to stay in the same area for 3rd/4th year? What about curriculum? Technology? Reputation? I think one thing that will be important for you is to look at the residency match lists. For some of the schools (KCUMB, PCOM, DMU, CCOM) their matches rival some of the top MD programs. Some schools will be geared more towards the PC route, whereas others will provide you with all the tools to go into a specialty. Really it comes down to what you want out of your medical school experience. Good luck.
     
  11. From what I've gathered, O.M.M. is taught to us but most D.O.s (90%) do not use it after graduating. There is no real ranking for osteopathic schools but it's not necessary. All D.O. schools are accredited, even the new ones. Hence, your board scores and performance will determine your residency choices.
     
  12. MaximusD

    MaximusD Anatomically Incorrect
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    UMDNJ-SOM and PCOM are very different schools.

    PCOM is very much about being an osteopathic physician, but despite their goal of putting out primary care physicians, they have a 67% specialization rate, which is almost as high as many highly-regarded MD programs.

    UMDNJ-SOM is a smaller DO school with only about 110 DO students. However, because they are state funded as part of the University of Medicine & Dentistry of New Jersey, they do a great deal of research and offer competitive tuition.

    So yes, they both are like allopathic schools in some sense. I would discourage the use of DO schools if you uncomfortable with the of not being an MD.

    I applied to both sets of schools concurrently. Regrettably, my GPA was a bit too low for the MD schools. Oh well -- PCOM is excellent. But if you are interested in schools like PCOM, the first thing on your mind should not be "bc it is the most like an MD school..."

    AND RIKER, you used DO as a backup? Yay more fuel for the pre-DO forums ;) kidding... or am I?
     
  13. MaximusD

    MaximusD Anatomically Incorrect
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    Not necessarily true. I'd say more than with MD schools, DO schools have regional followings. Thus, if you go to NYCOM you may be best-off in NY. If you go to PCOM, you will find the most receptive PDs in the Pennsylvania area.

    Something else to keep in mind is that alumni networks are important. If a PD has never seen a graduate from your school come through, then to a certain degree -- regardless of your stats and recs -- they may be less inclined to choose you as a relatively unknown quality. Such is the risks that students take by attending the newer DO schools such as DCOM, Touro-NY, etc. I am sure that these risks are negligible in many instances, but it would be naive to not admit the existence of preference towards well-established schools over new ones...
     
  14. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    you guys are really helpful!

    While I do have an interest in family medicine, I'm not naive enough to think that my interests couldn't/wouldn't change while in med school. Maybe, maybe not. The real key is that I want the ability to specialize in something "higher" if I care to.

    I realize that I can go to an MD school and get average board scores - and not end up getting the residency I dream of anyway - and that it's not just being a DO student that would be limiting me.

    I have an interest in surgery and radiology as well. Am I out of luck as a DO applying to these residencies (any more so than I'd be as an MD)? I don't care much for research, and I'd prefer a suburban area to rural or city... but realistically I'll move anywhere for my career.
     
  15. :thumbup:
     
  16. HarveyCushing

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    I will put in my plug for KCUMB here. KCUMB also has a very high percentage of their graduates going into specialties. At the interview they mentioned that they consistently have the highest percentage out of the DO schools. Not sure if that is completely true, but I know that it is on-par with PCOM.
     
  17. Orthodoc40

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    Small correction - that's about 110 per class, not total!! :)
     
  18. spicedmanna

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    In my not-so-unbiased opinion, I agree. :D

    You'll be fine if you attend an osteopathic school, assuming you don't become embittered by attending an osteopathic school when you really wanted to attend an allopathic school and/or you discover that you actually wanted that MD after your name instead of a DO. Other than that bleak possibility, you can have the residency that you want as long as you put in the appropriate effort to attain it; in other words, being a DO won't likely hold you back. Keep in mind that competitive residencies are competitive regardless of what designation you have after your name, MD or DO.

    Consider carefully your choices; attend a DO program only if you fully align with it. That said, there are plenty of good programs to choose from, as noted in the posts above.

    Good luck.
     
  19. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    Well, I want MD because it's more publicly recognizable, but a doctor is a doctor, and I care more about being an excellent doctor than what two letters are behind my name.

    If there's anything I'd ever be bitter about, it would be more so that I wasn't capable of achieving higher objective numbers (ie: mcat/gpa) than the fact that I'm a DO vs an MD. Sure I might want MD, but it's my fault for taking two majors and having my GPA suffer... it's my fault for not having enough brain cells to break a 30 on the MCAT... etc. I don't shift blame. My numbers represent me, whether or not I think it's fair.

    Sure, there are MDs who will look down on me. But I could also be a DO and look down on pharmacists, nurses, PAs, and 90% of the people in the world. And as an MD from a state school I will be looked down upon by ivy league MDs, Bill Gates, Dick Cheney, you name it...

    I just don't care about the BS...that's just insecure pre-meds talking. I want to be a doctor.
     
  20. spicedmanna

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    Don't be so sure of that; there are absolutely no guarantees in this process, whether allopathic or osteopathic. If it's just the numbers that have kept you out of medical school, then perhaps you are right; although, it's wise to point out that there are some osteopathic schools that happen to be number whores, too. However, if there is another factor that you need to address, then I suggest that you do that, because what has kept you from attaining admissions to an allopathic program might also keep you out of an osteopathic program. Just something to keep in mind.
     
  21. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    This is a fair statement - there's always something in one's application that could be improved. I just turned 24... spent 5 yrs in college with a double science major, 2 years in a masters program (physiology) and spent my summers struggling with the MCAT. I've done a remarkable amount of volunteer work, GIVEN my circumstances - but admittedly I haven't done anything incredible (ie: vaccinate kids in africa). I haven't had the time to, nor the money... i'm your average guy who has put a larger than average amount of work into something, that's all. Perhaps if I had gone to africa (or something like this), an allopathic school will take me. Who knows. I'm tired of running around in circles, I know that much...
     
  22. spicedmanna

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    Okay, then. I just wanted to address what I see as a problem with some folks who go the osteopathic route after not getting into an allopathic program. Just make sure you are fully aligned with your choice, that's all I'm saying. :)
     
  23. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    well, it's true that i'm another MD applicant who is looking at DO because he isn't getting in. I don't even care to hide that fact... it's just not important to me. I see the similarities between DO and MD as a reason to now apply to DO schools. If it were about something else, such as money, I'd go get an MBA like all my friends have...

    you all have been extremely helpful - thank you for the replies!
     
  24. spicedmanna

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    No worries. I don't harbor any ill-feelings toward the folks who are doing what you are suggesting. I, myself, applied to both allopathic and osteopathic programs. We are essentially in the same boat; we want to be physicians and are working toward that goal. I wish you luck in this process. Let me know how I can help. :thumbup:
     
  25. KeyLime

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    "I will probably get in with a balanced 29 mcat, 3.48 ugpa and 3.80 ggpa"

    You're right that your scores are above average for DO schools, however, nothing is certain. I have a higher MCAT score than you, I interviewed early, and I still got put on 2 waitlists. I'm pretty sure that one of the waitlists happened because they saw my MCAT score and figured that their school was my backup (which totally wasn't the case!). You'll get interviews with those scores, but be careful once you get there. Two schools asked me if I interviewed at MD schools, and weren't pleased when I told them that I had.

    If you apply to DO schools early, you will probably be interviewing in just a few months. My suggestion is that you reflect on your attitude toward having a DO degree. Schools aren't going to want to hear "I just want to be a doctor, I don't care if it is MD or DO." All of the DO schools that I interviewed at were very proud of their DO heritage and would be offended by an answer like that.
     
  26. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    If I were a good osteo school, I would be proud of my heritage too! Everyone has to play the politics game a little bit, though. Note also that i said I would probably get in with those numbers... numbers alone only work for law school
     
  27. spicedmanna

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    On that note, make sure you study the history and tenets of osteopathic medicine and shadow a DO, or two. Inadequate knowledge of osteopathy can be harmful. If possible, shadow a DO who does OMM/OMT, for the best possible experience. A good letter of recommendation from a DO can help; most schools require a letter from a physician. Some require a letter from a DO, but most prefer it. Focus, also, on why you want to attend a given program; they will undoubtedly ask you this in some way or another.

    Understand the historical as well as current differences between MD and DO and why you would specifically choose a DO program, or become a DO. You may not be asked these questions at every interview, but some schools do ask them, so be somewhat prepared.
     
  28. gotmeds?

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    Did you get any interviews when you applied? I think I know what the problem may have been...
     
  29. Dr JPH

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    Listen...heres what youre really trying to say.

    MD school isnt going to work out for you, so which DO school will still give you a chance to become a subspecialist and not hold you back. Right?

    Thats a fair question.

    Dont blow smoke up anyones ass about OMT or the "DO philosophy". Youre looking for a means to an end. Nothing wrong with that.

    I say look for DO schools with strong name recognition, schools located in or near major metropolitan areas, schools with their own residency programs and schools that match grads into strong programs around the country.

    Dont have people list schools because every time someone ends up listing some new DO school that has been open for 7 years as one of the "top DO schools." Its damn near comical.

    There are a handful of DO schools that 90% of people applying through AACOMAS end up applying to. Those are the top schools. When thousands of applicants all apply to the same 5 schools, then you know those institutions have done their job as far as setting a name for themselves as major players in osteopathic education.
     
  30. Commander Riker here.

    Which schools would that be?
     
  31. scpod

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    I don't know if I'd really say the top five in applications are the "major players." For 2005-2006 the top ten were:

    PCOM (3825)
    NYCOM (3285)
    CCOM (3197)
    KCOM (2621)
    NSU-COM (2542)
    LECOM (2497)
    UNECOM (2443)
    UMDNJ-SOM (2401)
    DMU-COM (2368)
    AZCOM (2359)


    After the top three it seems to even out quite a bit.
     
  32. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    Did you actually read the context of what I wrote? Or did you read just that line? I was making a point, and perhaps it was poorly worded... the point was that I don't care if MDs sometimes look down on me for going DO, because if I were a jerk DO I could look down on a zillion other people too...

    My sister is a nurse. Truth is, I look up to nurses because they save doctors' butts every day. I have been interviewed at only a couple of schools, both MD. I have been rejected by one, but their average MCAT is definitely higher than mine is - I was in fact surprised to be interviewed there in the first place. I am still waiting on the other one.
     
  33. Dr JPH

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    The top 3 certainly are. But the rest does even out.

    Of course, the 2-3 better state schools wont be represented here because they dont collect as many OOS applications. (MSU, OU, OSU)
     
  34. StrengthDoc

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    As the school with the highest avg entrance numbers and the home to the national osteopathic research center, I think TCOM could rightfully be placed on that list as well.
     
  35. StrengthDoc

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    I agree with everything you have stated, but even with the application constraints the school manages to get nearly 2000 applicants and maintain an extremely selective entrance threshold. For the reasons you have stated other schools definitely have broader/national appeal to students, but I don't feel that limits the school as a major player for academics or research.

    My 2 cents. Note: May be worth less in some areas. ;)
     
  36. ben_medicine

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    "I don't know if I'd really say the top five in applications are the "major players." For 2005-2006 the top ten were:

    PCOM (3825)
    NYCOM (3285)
    CCOM (3197)
    KCOM (2621)
    NSU-COM (2542)
    LECOM (2497)
    UNECOM (2443)
    UMDNJ-SOM (2401)
    DMU-COM (2368)
    AZCOM (2359)


    I guess it is bad for me have turned down the top 2 or so for one farther down the list.

    Don't that just suck :laugh:
     
  37. flaahless

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    What about Western? It's pretty highly respected down here in So Cal but I've yet to see it on anyones list. Is it well respected outside of California?
     
  38. med-i-cal

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    KCUMB isn't on the list, but that's because they never seem to leak any information out. I would definately consider it to be one of the upper end programs.
     
  39. FizbanZymogen

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    If you are ranking schools simply by how many people are applying there you are approaching it all wrong I believe. Schools like LECOM etc get a lot of applicants because people feel like they have a shot there (not because its known as a great school). I will ignore JP's suggestion and make a list (because I don't care what you all think) of the best DO schools. Top 10 (in no particular order).........

    1) PCOM
    2) DMU
    3) CCOM
    4) Western
    5) NSU
    6) KCUMB
    7) UNECOM
    8) OSU
    9) NYCOM
    10) KCOM (TCOM, OU and UMDNJ should be on here too but what the h3ll).

    If you go to one of these you will get a great education and have many oppurtunities to specialize. Go with the older more established institutions (Sorry LMU-DCOM lovers) and then decide where in the nation you could handle living. If you don't like Philly or New York then don't apply.
     
  40. Toohotinvegas33

    Toohotinvegas33 Currently Glasgow 3
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    I know its mostly a instate school but can MSUCOM get a honorable mention?
     
  41. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy
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    This is why the ranking threads are always grossly inaccurate and pointless. Too bad this thread had to turn into another one 'cause you know it's not like it's a new topic or anything. Next let's debate which is better -- DO v. Caribbean. :rolleyes:
     
  42. adismo

    adismo covered in moon dust
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    i went to WUHSCOMP and our class matched in Rad, Opth, Anesth, Derm, NeuroSx, Ortho, etc

    this juvenile comparison between DO's and MD's is for people with too much time on their hands. pick up a copy of First Aid and look busy.
     
  43. scpod

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    Did you not even bother to read JPs or my posts. Nobody was trying to rank schools on the basis of attendance. We were, however, looking for a correlation between the number of applicants and the schools who have made a name for themselves. After looking at the numbers, it appears that the top three may be separated from the others solely on that basis alone.

    The reasoning behind why so many people choose to apply to them may yet be a mystery since there is no real evidence that can be measured-- but you can draw your own conclusions like we did.

    Dr. Bagel probably had the best response so far-- which I will translate for you, should you need it:

    Rankings are stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid!!!!!!! They are little more than one person's narrow-minded opinion on which one's they like the best. Who cares about what Joe Blow likes the best? Choose your school based on your own criteria!
     
  44. TheNorthWaves

    TheNorthWaves Class of '11 MD
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    Is there something about UNECOM I don't know, other than the new england preference? I interviewed there and got what I interpret as a pretty nasty rejection letter. I haven't shadowed a DO yet - not by choice - my life just has been like that.
     
  45. DropkickMurphy

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    That's why it helps to be a soul dead atheist who has all the concern for lying of your average psychopath.
     
  46. Dr JPH

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    I disagree. TCOM is the home to the "National Osteopathic Research Center" because they themselves named it that. It takes a lot more than constructing a second rate research search engine to earn my vote as a top school.
     
  47. Dr JPH

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    Western above NYCOM. Wow. You really dont have a clue.
     
  48. lateapplicant

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    When they said top 10 they made sure they followed with (in no particular order)... I think it was a solid list. How many times have I seen these lists on this forum though. Searching really should be enforced more.
     
  49. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Membership Revoked
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    Regardless. A list with Western and NOT MSU or UMDNJ? :rolleyes:

    And from a premed no less.

    The opinion of a premed on this issue is more ridiculous than Riker at the playboy mansion. Makes no sense man!
     
  50. FizbanZymogen

    FizbanZymogen Guitar Hero Champion
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    UMDNJ and MSU have had lackluster matches year after year. That says something (either they carefully select their matriculants from PC oreinted pre-meds or they are under prepared for boards and can't compete). I'll let you decide.

    Oh and yes I am a premed who was accepted to every freakin DO school I applied to as well as a top 10 MD school (and I still picked USUHS). The only people who don't care about school reputation are people who got into a school without one.

    peace
     
  51. FizbanZymogen

    FizbanZymogen Guitar Hero Champion
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    All must bow down to the JP God (soon to be surgery scut).

    I also forgot that by attending PCOM you suddenly have more authority to rank DO schools since you attended them all. Anyone can research the schools and come to there own conclusions.
     

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