1. The SDN iPhone App is back and free through November! Get it today and please post a review on the App Store!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

Interview Feedback: Visit Interview Feedback to view and submit interview information.

Interviewing Masterclass: Free masterclass on interviewing from SDN and Medical College of Georgia

What do the podiatry schools think of premed applicants?

Discussion in 'Pre-Podiatry Students' started by ocwaveoc, Mar 23, 2007.

  1. ocwaveoc

    ocwaveoc Membership Revoked
    Removed

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    649
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    Hello all.
    If I don't get into a med school, I am considering podiatry. Do podiatric schools have an issue with applicants who coulndn't get into med schools trying to get into podiatry? Due to my current profession (physical therapist)and knowlege of the foot/gait, I should be a strong applicant. But, I wonder if the above issue would pose a problem.
    Also, which school is better, Temple or the one in California?
    Oh, also, what are the avg accepted students' MCAT scores for say Temple?
    I understand that for Temple, the accepted students' GPA has been running at around 3.2.
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    No, pod school do not have issues with MD/DO applicants. You must remember that pod school is medical school so they expect a lot of cross over.

    As for which school is better. I waiver on this issue a lot. You can be successful anywhere, but some schools find consistently do better in tangible measures. This maybe do to better applicants choosing to go to the same schools, stricter curriculum which weeds out weaker students, or the inability of leadership to enact the above two mentioned issues.

    Either way, pod school like med school, the most important part of your education is you drive for success. If you want a more definitive answer on what people feel is a better school use the search tool. We have beat this dead horse over and over again.
     
  4. calcaneus

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Podiatry
    I believe Temple's average MCAT accepted is around 21 or 22.

    I'm applying to pod schools right now and have tons of info like this, although not on me right now so I can't give you the exact MCAT score. But if you send me a message with any other similar questions I can get it for you.
     
  5. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    No it's not. Similar, though.
     
  6. MrFeeties

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    its a medical degree and you become a podiatric physician...... no, certainly not a medical school!
     
  7. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    You both know this b/c you attended podiatric medical school right???? If it is not medical school I guess the DOs that I sat next to in class didn't go to med school either. I'll be sure to tell the accrediation board that DO and DPM programs are not medical schools.

    By the way Northern, you love popping in to start arguments. My question is what do you do? Are you an MD, DO, DPT, PA, ect? I jsut want to be able to understand how you are an expert in all areas of medicine.
     
  8. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    15
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    DPM schools have no problem whatsoever with pre-med applicants. If it weren't for pre-med applicants, they'd have barely any applicants at all (maybe just students who have worked/been treated with a DPM or whose parent is a podiatrist).

    It's not that podiatry is not a very interesting and lucrative profession, but it just isn't very well known or understood. Recruiters and admissions offices are well aware that many of their applicants were originally pre-med and a few pre-dent. I hope the all of the pod schools and the profession as a whole start recruiting a bit more. A program is only viewed as being as good as its students/graduates, and that begins with good applicants.

    As for school choice, I'd say to pick the one that is a better fit for you. Temple probably has a better current academic reputation between the two you mention, but I think you will do pretty well in any of the pod programs if you work hard. If you have already completed PT school, I'd imagine you have family and/or job concerns to take into account also? Stating the obvious here: Oakland and Philly are certainly two different areas in terms of climate and cost of living.
     
  9. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    You could argue a nursing degree is "medical" in nature too. What about if you do a Ph.D at a medical school? Does that mean you're in medical school and going to be a physician? What about DNP school? They serve much the same function as a primary care physician and their degree is "medical" in nature, does that make NP school medical school and a DNP a physician upon graduation? Where's the line?

    More importantly, what's wrong with being called a "podiatrist" and referring to it as "podiatry school" like it always has been.

    You're right, of course I haven't attended both. But just because you took one or two classes with medical students doesn't mean your degree is the same, nor does it entitle you to use terminology that is classically reserved for broadly trained medical doctors. I hear this argument all the time - "we take basically the same classes as MD/DO students and even some of them we take together", and it doesn't hold any water. You hear the same "we take basically the same classes as MD/DO students" from DCs, PAs, basically everyone with either insecurity or who has to deal with jerks challenging their degree.

    Bear in mind - I don't mean to challenge your degree. I think podiatrists are great and there's no reason they can't have their niche. But I think you should be aware that MD/DO profession is under fire from every side, and the tiny issue of podiatrists moving to call themselves "podiatric physicians" and podiatry school "podiatric medical school" is just one of them. It is my right and responsibility to defend aspects of medical practice I think should be defended. Nothing personal.
     
  10. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student

    The good news is that they have about the same rate of shootings/stabbings. Most of them are not pod students, most of them. :D
     
  11. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    The thing is I didn't take 1 or 2 classes with DOs or just have the same professors. I took all of my basic science classes with the DOs. My question is if the MD/DO profession is "under fire" who does this challenge the programs. If anything puts my DO classmates under fire it is the fact that I had better entrance stats and generally was in beat 75% of the DO students when the test scores came back. Heck, if I had the $450 to waste I would have sat for the USMLE just for fun.

    I'm not taking anything personally, I would still like to know your training/specialty so I can compare apples to oranges. You play everything close to the vest so make the playing field even.

    P.S. I'm okay with being just a podiatrist but I do argue the medical school issue b/c many times MDs/DOs that are uneducated on the training try to discount what we know, and usually the patient is the one that suffers. (A pod at school has had a few patients die or have major complicaitons b/c what does he know he didn't go to medical school he is a podiatrist.)
     
  12. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Fair enough. I understand where you're coming from. I still disagree with the use of "physician" and "medical school", however.
     
  13. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
  14. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
    Podiatrist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,678
    Likes Received:
    11
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    You know where I stand on this one. Any doctor that:

    1) Is a member of medical staff at a hospital
    2) Has full hospital privileges
    3) Can write prescriptions

    is a physician but that's just my humble opinion. I just took out a home loan from "Physician Loans" so I guess that settles it! :laugh:

    Search the archives. This argument is well documented!!!
     
  15. MrFeeties

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2006
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    I took a year off after finishing my masters degree because i decided that I didn't want to go to med school, although I was accepted to every one I applied to except for 1, but that's because I wasn't a resident of that state. I decided podiatry was the perfect fit for me and unfortunately it cost me alot of money applying to figure this out. I'm choosing to pursue a DPM over an MD for several reasons, but particularly why should I wait 4 years to pick a specialty when i can start right away in a profession with terrific growth and opportunity? I'll still be a doctor, and podiatric medical schools ARE medical schools, but that has nothing to do with why I chose podiatry. If I was so concerned about what my diploma says and what other people think of me, then yes maybe I would be a prima donna MD student. So go ahead and tell me that podiatrists don't medically manage patients to the same degree MD physicians do, because I did my reading and I certainly don't have to have my blinders on about getting an MD just because I have little man syndrome.

    Cheers! SCPM '11
     
  16. medjohn0

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    touchy issue here people.
     
  17. AlleghenyPOD

    AlleghenyPOD 1st Year MD-bound
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2007
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Medical Student
    Greetings mate. From reading your posts and that of Dr_Feelgood, you both have credible points of view, which if I may say were rather effective in clearing up the questions many of us have in the medical spheres. As a pre-podiatry student, from my externships and volunteering in local veterans hospitals as well as podiatric clinics, podiatrists are usually referred by not only patients, but also fellow osteopathic and allopathic physicians as a 'podiatric physician'. The term is interchangable, from my opinion; the same way as how podiatrist and chiropodist are used.

    In the end, mate, I think what Dr_Feelgood is trying to say is that the DPM degree we get after 4 years of medical study is a proud and honorable degree. Hard fought. Challenging. I mean if you think about it podiatric physicians have the same abilities as DOs/MDs in that they are capable in practicing general primary care and or surgery as well as prescribe RXs.

    Lastly. Podiatric physicians, like MDs/DOs, also end up in a huge amount of debt in the end. lol.:laugh:


    Best,
     
  18. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Absolutely. No question.

    The rest of your post I don't think I'll address - my piss and vinegar values are at sub-argumentative levels.
     
  19. densmore22

    densmore22 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Northerner-

    It's so good to see you back correcting us on our minute nomenclature that quite honestly doesn't matter. Where have you been? Also, I'd be interested in hearing what you are too, if you are anything. My bet is you're either a premed or you're Whiskers in a new handle. Anyways, Feelgood was much too modest in saying that we just take our basic sciences together, we really take the first 1 1/2 of classes together at DMU, mind you this isn't true for all schools, but nonetheless, we learn general medicine/sciences first, then focus on podiatry. Yeah, you know, I'll probably never manage somebody's primary hypertension or put someone on Antihypertensives if I discover a prehypertensive state, I'd send them to their primary care doc to get them set up, but the fact that I know what those are, how they are caused, how to treat them, etc etc doesn't mean I'm not qualified to treat them or that I don't have the knowledge too (the hypertension thing was just an example). I'm just another person advocating for my patients health, another set of eyes checking the situation out and I know many Podiatric Physicians that have caught abstract rare diseases that many primary care docs have missed or overlooked. Case in point, one of our Podiatric Physcians at DMU diagnosed a person with Cerebral Palsy that had been misdiagnosed for over 10 years by many MD's, but I guess that he's not a real "physician."
     
  20. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    I just realized, when need to send a note to the APMSA. We have been decieved for some many years and must thank Northern for his clarification. I can't believe that they let us join and run an organization called the American Podiatric Medical Student Association. This must be stopped.
     
  21. densmore22

    densmore22 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    When I go to Philadelphia for the APMSA summer conference this August, I'll be sure to bring this to EVERYONE'S attention. I agree, I can't believe that the U.S. government is letting us get away with this. B*stards!!!
     
  22. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Well you created it, it's no surprise that they took on such a name. It's not like the general public and all medical practitioners got together to name your little group. When I was in fourth grade I made a club called "Northerner's Superhero Team". Didn't make us superheroes, no matter how much I spent on body paint. Believe me - we tried. Believe me.

    Well, though I do appreciate your sarcasm, I think you're kind of glossing over some points.

    No one is saying podiatrists aren't doctors. They're foot doctors. Optometrists are eye doctors. Dentists are tooth doctors. The term "real doctor" was never said by me, nor would I say it. It's just too ridiculous of a term. Additionally, no one said that anyone isn't contributing positively to their patients' health. Podiatrists, specifically, treat diseases that have hugely debilitating results for patients. Their medical knowledge adds to patient healthcare and can be an importantly dynamic part of a medical team. It's surprising, actually, how much lost mobility from foot disease or trauma can cause. Trust me, I have plenty of respect for your role.

    And now rereading your post, I'm trying to discern what your point exactly was. I can't really find anything I disagree with, except of course your gratuitous (purposeful, no doubt) use of the term "podiatric physician" and how severely you oversimplify and blur the lines between differing roles.
     
  23. densmore22

    densmore22 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    I find it funny how you (purposeful, no doubt) and gratuitously fail to mention what exactly your status is. 2 times the questions has been posed to you and 2 times you have failed to reveal. Interesting.....
     
  24. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Not that interesting.
     
  25. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
    Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Fellow [Any Field]
    What specialty do you desire to practice?
     
  26. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
    Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Fellow [Any Field]

    Right just like orthopedists are bone doctors, cardiologists are heart doctors, endocrinologists are gland doctors, neurologists are brain doctors, nephrologists are kidney doctors, urologists are kidney surgeons, gynocologists are down there doctors, and the list goes on.
     
  27. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Fair enough. Let's leave it at: our pre-specialty trainings are different to the extent that the degrees awarded are distinct, and in many ways limited in scope. Podiatry is no exception, and exemplifies the idea that a niche specialty may not require the same curriculum, training, degree, accreditation, certification that is standard in many other specialties. Nonetheless, I think some differences are key and should be treated as such.
     
  28. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
    Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Fellow [Any Field]
    A BS and a BA are different degrees but is there really a difference?

    MD and DO degrees are different but are now treated the same.

    Many people receive PhDs but in vastly different areas of study.

    Many degrees on paper are different and some are the same it is the training and what is learned that matters not the letters.
     
  29. dpmrunner

    dpmrunner Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    WAIT, gynos are "down there" doctors....lets see the farthest down you could go is the foot, are they trying to get in on our niche too, we better bring this up to the various governing boards:laugh:
     
  30. dpmrunner

    dpmrunner Junior Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2005
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    So if we are saying the whole degree debate...

    Ok so we are physicians or whatever, we just have that adjective in front of our name that says we deal with the foot.

    I know how being a "doctor" is usually a well-respected position, hence the fierceness of the arguments but now we're arguing about adjectives aka modifiers of nouns

    How about there are good physicians and bad ones, good MDs and bad ones, and good podiatrists and bad ones. Everyone is getting a degree that has doctor somewhere in the title, it is what you do with it once you have it that really matters. That is how you will be judged by your patients, that should be the MAIN reason you chose your career field, and on top of all of that each respective profession should know their scope and abide by the rules of that scope.

    I can understand arguing if another comes on the pod boards and says that our profession is stupid, useless, we're undereducated, etc. but instead we're arguing about the English language, which changes continually as a result of verbal usage.
     
  31. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    True. But think of it from our (MD) point of view. We see what happened with the DO degree, have accepted it, though it means that we now have another degree, but with the same curriculum, the same training (99%), ability to take our licensing exams (though they have separate ones), the same identifiers ("physician" & "medical school"), and the same residency & practice options (though they have separate ones). You can see why this is a little....unnecessary? Why create an entire new system for the exact same thing? Why confuse everyone? Why? Well, because the DO degree wasn't always this way. It used to have a much different role and was very limited in scope and prevalence. Now, with successfully MD-mimicked curriculum modifications, lobbying, and growing public acceptance, they're equivalent. That's not a problem. It's confusing and strange for the reasons I stated above, but not a problem, really. Good for them, I guess.

    The problem is, as an MD or MD student, you see what the future of medicine is going to look like for us. We see nurse practitioners invading (I don't mean to make it sound sinister, that was just the best word I had) pushing family practice doctors out. Yes, it's the system that's to blame, not the NPs, but still, their growth and lobbying etc. is pushing out FP MDs. Now they've elevated themselves to a doctoral level program and there is pressure to call them "Dr." FP. We see physical therapists elevating themselves to a doctoral level program and there is pressure to call them "Dr." too. PM&R. We see optometrists pushing aggressively for surgical rights in many states across the country (and have won them in some instances). Ophthalmology. We see podiatrists pushing for more scope of practice both in primary LE care and surgery, and ever so subtlely changing their titles from "podiatrist" to "podiatric physician" and "podiatry school" to "podiatric medical school" and "podiatry student" to "podiatric medical student". Ortho. PA's are creating groups where they are no longer really under physician supervision. And everyone under the sun wants to wear scrubs and a white coat these days.

    Can you at least understand why it's distressing for us? We don't want to "keep anyone down", but we also don't want to have our profession taken from us, when we feel (as you do) that for most of "medical practice", we are the best people to do the job. I understand that you feel you're also qualified to do some of this. I agree with you. I even agree that when it comes to the foot, I think for the most part podiatrists are the experts. But what I don't agree with is little things that glaze over the distinctions that indeed define why it's harder to get into MD school, why the curriculum is the gold standard for medical education, why the licensing exams are different, why our clinical training is different, why our options are more numerous and scope of practice for the most part all-encompassing (assuming you choose your specialty). Sometimes it's the little things that you feel like you can't give any ground on. For me, I think "podiatrist" is more simple and descriptive and accurate than "podiatric physician", so why change it. I think "podiatry school" is more simple and descriptive and accurate than "podiatric medical school", so why change it. I worry the motivation for these "upgrades" are for the wrong reasons.
     
  32. krabmas

    krabmas Senior Member
    Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,167
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Fellow [Any Field]

    It is hard to understand why you are so consumed by this.

    I understand that from your ignorant point of being a med student that it is hard to understand what podiatry students learn. If you are not there you do not know. Many MD students think that in the 4 years that I am in school all I learn is the foot. 4 years to learn the foot? No. 4 years to learn medicine and the foot.

    Also, if you had experience with our patients you would understand why we want an increased scope. The lines drawn for scope of practice are arbitrarily drawn. A patient with a foot ulcer can be treated by a DPM but what is that same patient has a venous stasis ulcer on the ankle? In NY the DPM cannot treat the venous stasis ulcer on the ankle and that patient now has to go to 2 different doctors on a weekly basis for treatment. It is inconvienient for the patient.

    Try to see this argument from the patient's point of view and not the selfish place of the MD student's pocket.
     
  33. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Now you're just being hostile, defensive, petty, and displaying signs that you're not really understanding my points. Real classy, pal.

     
  34. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
    Podiatrist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,678
    Likes Received:
    11
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I don't think that podiatry is "stealing" anything from anyone. There was a huge void in healthcare (which is well documented) and podiatry has filled it. I am going to residency at one of the largest teaching hospitals in the nation. I can tell you that no one is worried about what podiatrists call themselves or their schools. We do what we do better than anyone else and are well utilized.

    For what it's worth, my badge will say:

    Jonwill, DPM
    Resident Physician - Podiatric Surgery

    Let's not get crazy here people!
     
  35. CareBear9984

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    Krabmas makes an excellent point. Honestly, those who oppose the progression of podiatric medicine in this light must generally not understand why it's being pushed in the first place. Before you make certain assumptions about these "medicine-hungry" and "medical field invading" health professions, specially podiatric physicians (and yes, that's what I feel that I will deserve to be called upon becoming one), maybe you should examine some of the inequalities in the general health field. A start in your understanding might be seen in the so called "harsh" post by Krabmas. Honestly, it's hard for people to look at your concerns from any other light other than one of selfish interest. And come on, you've got to admit that you're only looking out for your own medical profession's success. Think of us as doing the same. So the next time you think about "setting us straight", you might want to get some of your own facts in line.
     
  36. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Enlighten me. Why?

    Like what? Honestly, you're being so vague I have no idea what you're referring to.

    And about the "podiatric physician" thing - you can feel deserving in any way you want. But my (and others') opinion remains that I think "podiatrist" is simpler, more accurate, and more descriptive - better.

    Sigh...did you even read my post? We think (and in our minds, rightfully so) we are the best people to be providing the medical care we do. So do you. That's the conflict, not desperate self-preservation. Don't put words in my mouth or paint me with some brush I don't deserve.

    I'm looking out for both. I think providing the best patient care/common good comes first (whoever is competent and capable should be doing it), and survival of our profession second. But yes, since in many cases (e.g. optometrists doing surgey) we do believe MDs are the most capable and thus the procedures should remain in our scope and perhaps not in others, we are looking out for the "survival" of the care we give. We don't want to lose it because legislators want to cut costs, for example. I find it insulting you assume we're fighting this because of ambition or greed.

    We're fighting the overexpansion of other health professions because we believe in many cases we are the best people to be doing the job. You believe you are the best people to be doing your job. I agree. Pushing for more will cause scrutiny and criticism, however.

    "Setting you straight". Wow. You're a piece of work.

    What facts are you referring to, by the way? Could you perhaps tell me how my OPINION on this matter, which is basically all I've ever expressed, is less valid than yours?

    I agree. You do good work that orthopedists seem content to share at the current level. Try telling them you've got universal scope of practice that includes the entire leg and all the procedures involved, though. It'd be a mess (cf: optometrists/ophthalmologists). In the real world, MD/DO have plenty of respect for DPMs. But in the context of an internet forum, I think it's appropriate to discuss issues like this while it stays professional. It doesn't look like your colleagues here want it to, however.
     
  37. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
    Podiatrist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,678
    Likes Received:
    11
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I think that is where the miscomunication is occuring. It isn't about ortho sharing anything with podiatry. It is about the fact that ortho is not trained to do foot surgery. General orthopods receive limited training when it comes to foot surgery (and this isn't shocking as they will tell you this). Residency training requires that a general orthopod perform 10 cases! And this in five years. I'll have 2500+ procedures but we won't go there. But this makes perfect sense. You don't see general ortho doing hand surgery, do you?

    Sure, some orthopods choose to do a fellowship in foot and ankle (like our friend Dawg) but the majority specialize in other areas. It appears that most orthopods do specialize in this day and age. But as half of the F&A fellowships remain open every year (and there aren't very many in the first place), ortho is not going after the foot and ankle stuff. I think there are many reasons for this.

    Don't misunderstand me. I'm not bagging on ortho at all. Those poor souls have enough to deal with as it is without worrying about the foot. I have been through many hospitals and have been exteremely impressed with ortho residents and their knowledge and ability. They are studs. When you start getting into gait analysis, biomechanics, etc, they just don't have time for it. As I said, they have enough to worry about. But because of this, you are now seeing many ortho groups and hospitals hiring on pods as the foot and ankle guys. This will only continue to increase.

    No, we don't have a universal scope in the profession which I believe to be a huge problem. It will never be the entire leg though. Concerning surgery, we are foot and ankle surgeons and that is the way it should stay. There is plenty of work.

    Call me whatever you want. Just pay me :laugh:
     
  38. CareBear9984

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    64
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    Well stated. Perhaps I didn't take enough time to make my previous points clear as demonstrated by them being ripped apart. Honestly, I'm just for a better means of communication and understanding between health professionals of all sorts. This will keep in mind the welfare of the most important individuals: the patients.
     
  39. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    One, how would we now that you have any training at an allopathic school or what you even do.

    Two, this kind of crap got the AMA in deep crap once before, and led to the expansion of quack medicine. Just look up the supreme court case Wilk vs the AMA.

    Choose your battles, do you want colleagues that are based in good EBM, are trained in the same basic science education, have post-graduate education programs (i.e. residencies), rotate in MD/DO specialties, work in hospitals, work well in a referral system, and a profession that has no desire to replace any MD/DOs (except F&A orthopods), and no desire to a PCP.
     
  40. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    This has always been my position on the podiatric physician/surgeon issue. For the most part, podiatrist are working to become surgeons not physicians (I just like arguing with Northern).

    But I do think that podiatrist come from podiatric medical school. I'd like to see if Northern and I can come to an agreement. If a podiatric program is integrated with a DO program, they are a podiatric medical school. If they are not integrated they are a podiatric school. How if that for a compromise?
     
  41. densmore22

    densmore22 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    What difference does it make what we call ourselves? Podiatrist vs. Podiatric Physician, Podiatry School vs. Podiatric Medical School? I think all 4 pretty much indicate what we're doing and what we're going to school for. I've told people I'm a medical student and they ask what's my specialty going to be, I say Podiatry. I've told people I'm in Podiatry School and they ask me what my specialty is going to be, I say I'm going to be a foot and ankle doc. Most of the time they say why do I want to deal with children, which is a whole other story. Anyways, I know I rarely get to the point, but I guess I'm just saying, you're splitting hairs here. We're not ever going to convince you and you're never going to convince us, so my next question to you Northerner is why do you feel the need to sporadically come on here and question our nomenclature and training. You repeatedly say that you have nothing but respect for what we do and that we provide a great service, but the fact that you come on here and tell all of us that we're lying to the public and our patients, well, that just doesn't seem like you respect us too much. I just was home (WA state) for spring break, stopped by my old work (ER in a rural hospital) and while I was there for about 25 min, 2 separate ER docs asked to have the "Podiatric Physician" paged. This is something as recently as last summer wouldn't have happened, but partly through my educating Physicians and policy change (that had the most to do with it, hands down), this is becoming the standard.

    This next thing really has nothing to do with the current debate, I just have some first hand info about it, so skip over if not interested:

    I think one big reason why NP's are now getting the DNP is because there's a profound lack of FP and IM practioners out there. We're seeing a lot more NP's that have been practicing for a few years going back and getting the DNP than new graduates. This is due to most clinics (usually multispecialty) that are paying for their NP's to go back and get the DNP. My mom is an IM NP, she's close to retirement, but the clinic she works at offered to pay fully for her to get a DNP, even though she works with 5 other IM MD's.
     
  42. IlizaRob

    IlizaRob IlizaRob-erator
    Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    821
    Likes Received:
    5
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    A lot of valid arguments on this thread. Northerner may be a little insecure, but I can understand his views from his perspective as a pre-med. So I wont contribute. I just wated to say that JonWill has a pretty sweet avatar. I like it bro. :thumbup:
     
  43. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    15
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Do you consider the fact that there is a shortage of MDs to fill those IM and FP residencies?

    These "invasions" which you apparently fear so greatly are created out of necessity. The majority of primary care physician residencies are filled by DO graduates and foreign MD graduates - not United States MD grads. United States MD graduates are nowhere near numerous enough to fill all of the needed residency positions, and those graduates often opt for surgical or other medical specialty residencies.

    Let's be honest here: the only US-trained MD graduates taking primary care residencies are the exception and not the rule. They are people who had a genuine interest in that FP/IM field all along (this is great, but exceedingly rare nowadays) and the others got "stuck" there because they barely passed the boards and could not match with other specialties.

    I recognize that this is a naive statement from a pre-pod^, but you will realize that while you rotate about six months of internal med during pod school and a few more during residency, MD/DOs - especially those who specialize in FP/IM - have much more time in those areas. You are training to be the foot specialist, not to practice "general primary care." A DPM would be crazy (and way out of his scope) to try to treat hypertension, diabetes, cancer, respiratory disease, etc as the solo admitting or treating physician. Yes, you may suspect - or even confirm - those systemic diagnoses based on your training and knowledge of the symptoms, but that is the time to call someone with more experience in those arenas and refer the patient to follow up there.

    Medicine is a team approach, and a key is knowing your limits. That is the way to stay out of legal trouble and provide the patients with the best care. If you, as a DPM, associate yourself with a variety of quality specialists and primary care docs, you will recognize the consults or referrals which can optimize care for your patients (vascular, endocrinology, derm, oncology, plastics, rheumatology, ortho, IM, etc etc etc). In return, your goal should be to gain the respect of those intelligent colleagues and earn their referrals and consults for podiatric cases based on your training, reputation, and success in treating those pathologies.
     
  44. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
    Podiatrist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,678
    Likes Received:
    11
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Thanks man. That was a pilon that came in.
     
  45. Dr_Feelgood

    Dr_Feelgood Guest
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    4
    Status:
    Podiatry Student
    I would have been so much cooler if you said walked in. Speaking of pilons walking in, is that the guy who walked on the pilon for about a month before seeking treatment?
     
  46. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Jesus, I'm not a premed. Blasphemy.

    Since I pretty much agree with everything you said, I'm not sure what you're arguing about here.

    Ok. We disagree.

    Ok. It is my opinion (and others') that this is misleading. Subtle, yes, but misleading.

    You may be right about the splitting hairs thing, but I want to debate it. If you don't, then don't respond. Otherwise, I'll defend my profession and you defend yours. And you are right that neither will convince the other. But I do learn things about your perspective in the process, including relevant peripheral issues. It's just a seemingly little thing that irks me and I think is silly and overextending. I'm not questioning your training, I'm questioning claims that, to me, overextend it.

    Well maybe the problem is that you're taking my arguments too personally. Yes, it is my opinion that telling patients you are in medical school to be a foot and ankle doctor is tantamount to lying. Doesn't mean I don't respect the role of a podiatrist. Some call themselves podiatrists and their school podiatry school with pride. They're right to.

    Just because I disagree with the (in my opinion) current embellishment of the term you use to describe yourselves doesn't make me disrespectful.

    Help me out here - how are they different? Is the curriculum at a "DO integrated" program different from the other one? Degree different? Subsequent board certification different? I mean I see the point you're trying to make, but I'm just worried densmore over there will be all over us for splitting hairs again.
     
  47. jonwill

    jonwill Podiatrist
    Podiatrist Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,678
    Likes Received:
    11
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I think we are getting a little carried away here or "splitting hairs" as it were. Podiatrists are indeed defined as physicians under federal law (medicare/medicaid), most state laws, insurance companies, hospitals (members of medical staff), etc. Even doing something as simple as looking in the phone book, you will find podiatrists under "physicians and surgeons".

    But let's be realistic. I have never heard of a pediatrician refer to himself as a pediatric physician, or a cardiologist refer to himself as a cardiologic physician, or a neurologist refer to himself as a neurologic physician, etc. So yea, for all intents and purposes, most people simply introduce themselves as a podiatrist. It's really not a big deal.

    Writing this gives me the distinct feeling of Deja Vu :laugh:
     
  48. Feli

    Feli ACFAS Member
    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    1,986
    Likes Received:
    15
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Surely won't be the first or last time people get carried away on this issue, but I fully agree. :laugh:
     
  49. corpsmanUP

    corpsmanUP Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2005
    Messages:
    944
    Likes Received:
    6
    Dr. F,

    Pods can't take the USMLE or COMLEX.

    The vast majority of primary care residents are US trained MD's. There IS a higher percentage of DO and FMG'sin these fields, but they by no means make up the majority or anywhere close. In fact, DO's make up about 10% of allopathic FM slots. FMG's make up about another 10% of those slots.

    Its time to stop fighting with the Pods and instead turn the battle toward the non-physician providers who will soon be walking the earth with doctorates that took them 1/4 the total hours an MD/DO/DPM went through.
     
  50. Northerner

    Northerner Coquettish Haberdasher
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,582
    Likes Received:
    12
    Does this mean I can't argue with Dr_Feelgood anymore? I like his cowbell avatar.
     
  51. densmore22

    densmore22 Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    354
    Likes Received:
    3
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Ok, so here is my shpiel (sp?). Anyways, Northerner, I honestly have nothing but respect for you. I feel that you bring an educated argument (and for those of you that took philosophy, you'll know that an argument is an educated disagreement with reason and backing), but I also feel that sometimes you're picking a fight just to pick a fight. I value you're perspective and I feel that someday you might be a great ambassador between Podiatry and Traditional medicine (i.e. allopathic). With that being said, I feel that your arguments are completely biased. The fact that you feel Podiatry is crossing over into the allopathic regimen is just complete crasyness. You have nothing to fear. As stated earlier (feelgood), podiatrists are trained to be surgeons, not primary care, so what is your fear? I mean, our greatest competition is orthopods and most obtain minimal training in F&A compared to Podiatric surgeons (purposeful use). I guess I just don't get it, so PM me with your reasons or state them here.
     

Share This Page