What do you AMGs REALLY think about IMGs?

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That's an interesting accusation. Every student who actually couldn't handle med school was let go where I went.

Tautologically so? How would you know this? "If they werent let go, then obv they could handle it!" or do you think you actually know everyone in your class well enough that you could tell which ones "couldnt handle it" and you know that they were all let go? Serious question. His accusation is hard to prove, but your response seems even more so.

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This my friend is somewhat flawed thinking. Just because you studied for USMLEs for a year and scored a 250 doesn't mean you are more qualified than an AMG. We only get 6-8 weeks to study for the exam, some times even less. You even admitted in your post that America provides better opportunities for training, and AMGs are products of this system, hence more qualified by default to work in this system.


Shouldn't the same logic apply to MCATs. Just because someone scores 35+ does not make him or her more worthy of becoming a Doctor and/or practicing medicine in the U.S.

Lots of reasons why people don't get the magic 30 on MCATs, what matters is that they're dedicated, look for other options to becoming a Doctor, prove themselves doing well on USMLEs, and get residencies. Nothing wrong with that.

However, there is something wrong with the AMG slacker who lucked out on the MCAT (some English major who got 13 on verbal) who cries foul when a better educated I/FMG takes their residency spot.

Grow up people.
 
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lol at the bolded. No there isnt. But its amusing that this "something" you apparently cannot specifically describe, but you wanted to throw that last line in there anyway for the appeal to emotion points.

WHAT, exactly, is "not right" about this?

Please refer to my post above. But in brief, if we are to have a match with any integrity at all, why have a situation in which some participants in the match are able to accept offers outside of the match, while other members are unable to do so as stipulated by contract. As I argued, the offering/accepting of prematches should be eliminated altogether.
 
Please refer to my post above. But in brief, if we are to have a match with any integrity at all, why have a situation in which some participants in the match are able to accept offers outside of the match, while other members are unable to do so as stipulated by contract. As I argued, the offering/accepting of prematches should be eliminated altogether.

Ok. Struggling to see how that is any way relevant to your opinion on IMGs, or anyone elses, but whatever. You certainly cant blame IMGs for taking small advantages where they get them, especially considering how absurdly stacked against them the deck is.

IOW, I REALLY dont think that AMGs want to go down the "but this isnt fair to everyone!" path.

If we are to have a match with any integrity at all, why have a situation in which some participants basically stand zero chance from the opening tip, based on being born in different countries.
 
Yes, and I'm sure it was after significant intervention by the school. Prestige of a university is on the students side, and as such, tarnishing a name with people who aren't producing is the last thing the school wants.

Meaning what exactly? Giving people a chance to take a year over? Same curriculum. If you don't pass second chance, tough titties.

Your accusation, seemed to imply that schools let people pass who cannot. This is just simply not only not true, but it's rather asinine.

A few students who fails do nothing to tarnish a schools name. Med school is tough, those who can't make it . . . dont.
 
Your accusation, seemed to imply that schools let people pass who cannot. This is just simply not only not true, but it's rather asinine.

.

No, that is not my inclination. My inclination is that you are given the resources and aid to succeed and the help is readily available to prevent you from failing. So the school will do whatever it can, ethically, to prevent the downward academic spiral of a student, which is not at all a bad thing, but a boon that we certainly don't have.
 
If you read my reply carefully, I wrote that it is a primary measuring stick. Of course there is more to an individual than just scores. However, since the boards are essentially a test of your knowledge (mental regurgitation or whatever you want to call it), it goes without saying that one would be naive to take someone who got a 215 over someone who got a 240 (pending the interview of course). It is one aspect of qualification into medicine.

I read your reply fine, I just thought it was rubbish. You did not say the quoted above in your first post. That sound? Must be the back-peddling.

215 is ~50%ile, and 240 is past the first SD therefore ~67-75%ile - how are these candidate so much different, with one being more "qualified" than the other? I understand how scores I used. I've played the game and continue to do so, but you have yet to demonstrate how they are actually anything meaningful, especially in regards to step 1 which is nothing more than a students ability to remember basic science. I've seen plenty of FMGs that practically have Harrison's memorized by have no freaking clue how to apply any of it.
 
His accusation is hard to prove, but your response seems even more so.

Fair enough.

How would you evaluate someone's ability to either handle or not handle it, other than the fact that they advanced through the years of medical school and eventually graduated. We can argue about wether not the accreditation that takes place is bull**** or not. We can also argue wether it is applied properly or even uniformly. However, am I really that far out of line to think that people who couldn't pass, were not able to make it in medical school . . . tautology notwithstanding.
 
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Shouldn't the same logic apply to MCATs. Just because someone scores 35+ does not make him or her more worthy of becoming a Doctor and/or practicing medicine in the U.S.

Lots of reasons why people don't get the magic 30 on MCATs, what matters is that they're dedicated, look for other options to becoming a Doctor, prove themselves doing well on USMLEs, and get residencies. Nothing wrong with that.

However, there is something wrong with the AMG slacker who lucked out on the MCAT (some English major who got 13 on verbal) who cries foul when a better educated I/FMG takes their residency spot.

Grow up people.

The MCAT is a different beast. It's a thinking test not a rote memorization test. On the MCAT you demonstrate not just simply your ability to remember garbage, but to be apply to apply it in a logical fashion. If you don't score well on the MCAT, it is very well that perhaps you lack the ability to think the way that is required for medical school and working as a physician.
 
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No, that is not my inclination. My inclination is that you are given the resources and aid to succeed and the help is readily available to prevent you from failing. So the school will do whatever it can, ethically, to prevent the downward academic spiral of a student, which is not at all a bad thing, but a boon that we certainly don't have.

So that means what, exactly? You are better people because you went to medicals school that did not help a student if they needed it?
 
Fair enough.

How would you evaluate someone's ability to either handle or not handle it, other than the fact that they advanced through the years of medical school and eventually graduated.
Right, but when the claim is "those that cant hack it are given a ton of help and are basically coddled so that they make it through" then its not really fair to use this criteria to evaluate. I'm not saying you are wrong, but my personal anecdotal experience would support the claim that the administration REALLY doesnt want you to fail out and will try to help as much as possible.

Of course, the biggest problem is that "not able to handle it" isnt some category that you are either in or out of. Everyone struggles with some things, some struggle more. A better statement would be "performace/struggling that would get you kicked out of other types of schools is tolerated in medical school."
We can argue about wether not the accreditation that takes place is bull**** or not. We can also argue wether it is applied properly or even uniformly. However, am I really that far out of line to think that people who couldn't pass, were not able to make it in medical school . . . tautology notwithstanding.
No, of course not, if they couldnt pass, then they are definitely in the "not able to make it" category. The question is whether some that DO pass should properly be in the "not able to make it" category...even though they did technically make it.
 
Why can't AMG's prematch? Who is in charge of the regulations for the match process? AAMC?
 
Ok. Struggling to see how that is any way relevant to your opinion on IMGs, or anyone elses, but whatever. You certainly cant blame IMGs for taking small advantages where they get them, especially considering how absurdly stacked against them the deck is.

IOW, I REALLY dont think that AMGs want to go down the "but this isnt fair to everyone!" path.

If we are to have a match with any integrity at all, why have a situation in which some participants basically stand zero chance from the opening tip, based on being born in different countries.

As I've stated before I make no assumptions on the quality of IMGs or even the legitimacy of their rights as an individual to apply for residency positions here in the US. I certainly wouldn't hold it against any IMG who entered into the match, interviewed and submitted a rank list and ended up getting the residency spot of their choice. The issue I have is with the existence of prematching.

To argue for the ability of IMGs to make a prematch on the basis that it levels the playing field is ridiculous. For one, the IMGs who prematch are often extremely well-qualified, why then should they not be required to be bound by the same limitations that equally competitive AMGs are throughout the entire match process? Secondly, the prematch for IMGs, DOs and already graduated AMGs is mainly for the benefit of programs, whose positions would otherwise go unfilled in the match if they couldn't make these offers. Now, it's likely that with the rise in medical school graduates the program directors will see less of a need to make pre-match offers, but this doesn't mean that the practice shouldn't be abandoned altogether.

I have a deep respect for those IMGs who have worked hard and struggled to come to this country for residency, because I do realize as you mentioned that they are disadvantaged from the outset and they end up being amazing doctors. However, to think that we should grant them special exemptions in the match process as some sort of affirmative action based on nation of origin I think is unjustified.
 
As I've stated before I make no assumptions on the quality of IMGs or even the legitimacy of their rights as an individual to apply for residency positions here in the US. I certainly wouldn't hold it against any IMG who entered into the match, interviewed and submitted a rank list and ended up getting the residency spot of their choice. The issue I have is with the existence of prematching.

To argue for the ability of IMGs to make a prematch on the basis that it levels the playing field is ridiculous.
Right, thats exactly my point. It is ridiculous. It does almost nothing to level the playing field. It is still ABSURDLY tilted against IMGs.
For one, the IMGs who prematch are often extremely well-qualified, why then should they not be required to be bound by the same limitations that equally competitive AMGs are throughout the entire match process? Secondly, the prematch for IMGs, DOs and already graduated AMGs is mainly for the benefit of programs, whose positions would otherwise go unfilled in the match if they couldn't make these offers. Now, it's likely that with the rise in medical school graduates the program directors will see less of a need to make pre-match offers, but this doesn't mean that the practice shouldn't be abandoned altogether.
Like I asked before, I cant see exactly how this is relevant to the thread topic. Ok, I agree with you, either everyone should be able to pre-match, or no one should. What does that have to do with anything? That is not the fault of the IMGs and cannot in any rational way impact your opinion of IMGs.
I have a deep respect for those IMGs who have worked hard and struggled to come to this country for residency, because I do realize as you mentioned that they are disadvantaged from the outset and they end up being amazing doctors. However, to think that we should grant them special exemptions in the match process as some sort of affirmative action based on nation of origin I think is unjustified.

I do not think we should grant them special exemptions, I'm merely pointing out that complaining about their special exemptions is fairly laughable, considering that they dont even come close to making up for the special restrictions. I agree that fighting silly artificial barriers to entry with other, equally silly, artificial barriers to entry, is a waste of time.
 
I think things are going to start to change for IMGs. As previous poster's pointed out, the number of U.S. grads is finally catching up to residency positions. In that cases the system has to give the shots to u.s. grads who pay crap loads of money to pursue their goals.

Even the really underresourced and busy hospitals in non-desirable locations will start accepting more U.S. grads that are the bottom of the barrel of U.S. seniors.
 
Why can't AMG's prematch? Who is in charge of the regulations for the match process? AAMC?

The match was created by med school Deans to regulate the chaos of the process. It is the med schools that dictate allopathic 4th years have to go through the match, everyone else is fair game.

For a better understanding of why this was, check out the "antitrust thread" in this forum for some of the best arguments for and against the match itself.
 
Tough titties. If you chose to go to St George or some random island and were not offered admission to American schools (or more stupidly, turned them down or didn't apply in the first place), you should have to live with the consequences of that decision. Or, consider the student who cheats in undergrad, is not accepted to any US med school as a result, and thus has to go to school in some tropical shanty town, with third tier clinical "rotations" in St Generic county "hospital". That has got to be some huge driving force to study and do well, to get out of the unfortunate hole -- trapped in that situation, anyone would want to buckle down and do well on the boards. If I were heading a residency program, I would know that LCME medical schools have already done the background work to weed out people with such shady academic pasts... but know that kind of QC isn't compulsorily done for island diploma mills. Similarly, it's pretty obvious when an American grad has a sketchy Deans letter/past. In this system, this American grad would technically go through the first iteration match, but you'd have to be pretty stupid or desperate to hire this person. There aren't really many complete "crap" AMG students that make it to graduation/match though.

what do you mean "you should have to live with the consequences". If a well qualified carribean student shows up and is better than the AMG why should the PD rank him lower. the PD's job is to get the best qualified person, he dosent care about your student loans. The real problem is the AAMC who keep on increasing enrollment when residency positions are frozen at the same level.
 
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what do you mean "you should have to live with the consequences". If a well qualified carribean student shows up and is better than the AMG why should the PD rank him lower. the PD's job is to get the best qualified person, he dosent care about your student loans. The real problem is the AAMC who keep on increasing enrollment when residency positions are frozen at the same level.

What do you mean by "better"? I have friends in the Carib's and they have something called a 5th semester where they go through the high lights or something. Then they take a few MONTHs to study for boards. While all the AMGs I know take 3-6 weeks to study for boards and smoke them. But what about the average AMG who scores average after studying for 4 weeks? He/she is disadvantaged compared to the SGU student (who is very smart but just missed admissions to a US MD school but a hair) who studies for 2 months?
 
Like I asked before, I cant see exactly how this is relevant to the thread topic. Ok, I agree with you, either everyone should be able to pre-match, or no one should. What does that have to do with anything? That is not the fault of the IMGs and cannot in any rational way impact your opinion of IMGs.

Well many people are displeased by the fact that IMGs can prematch and argue that those who prematch in competitive specialties are taking away spots from well-qualified AMGs. I don't know enough of the details to certify if this view is justified, but getting rid of the prematch (on the basis that all match participants should abide by the same rules) would have the added benefit of silencing those who believe that IMGs are taking up spots before AMGs even get a chance to match into them when the match algorithm runs.
 
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What do you mean by "better"? I have friends in the Carib's and they have something called a 5th semester where they go through the high lights or something. Then they take a few MONTHs to study for boards. While all the AMGs I know take 3-6 weeks to study for boards and smoke them. But what about the average AMG who scores average after studying for 4 weeks? He/she is disadvantaged compared to the SGU student (who is very smart but just missed admissions to a US MD school but a hair) who studies for 2 months?
I'm staying out of this argument, b/c I'm bound to get real p/o... but I just wanted to interject, and say that this is TOTALLY NOT TRUE for SGU students. We do not have an extra semester for "high lights or something". We do NOT NOT NOT NOT take a few months to study for boards. I took 6 WEEKS, and so did a LOT of my classmates (I know a lot of AMG's who take roughly 5 or 6 weeks too). I never took any prep course, neither did a LOT of my classmates. Like me, a lot of my classmates scored well above 240+.

Maybe this (I know this does happen) at other carib schools, but don't go misrepresenting and putting false information in public forums. Your free to express your opinion, but watch it with the false info. :nono:

Oh yeah and good luck to everyone tomorrow for the MATCH!!! :soexcited:
 
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What do you mean by "better"? I have friends in the Carib's and they have something called a 5th semester where they go through the high lights or something. Then they take a few MONTHs to study for boards. While all the AMGs I know take 3-6 weeks to study for boards and smoke them. But what about the average AMG who scores average after studying for 4 weeks? He/she is disadvantaged compared to the SGU student (who is very smart but just missed admissions to a US MD school but a hair) who studies for 2 months?

I don't only mean board scores, I am just looking at it from the point of view of a PD. Why should he not rank someone highly if he feels that person will succeed and be an asset to his program. Maybe that person has a good personality that fits well with the program. Maybe he has a good work ethic. My main point is that there is no real incentive for a PD not to rank someone highly simply because of the school they attended. (for the record I would love to see all IMG's shut out. I am an american medical student and I want less competition for residency spots, I just dont see why a PD would care about this)
 
I'm staying out of this argument, b/c I'm bound to get real p/o... but I just wanted to interject, and say that this is TOTALLY NOT TRUE for SGU students. We do not have an extra semester for "high lights or something". We do NOT NOT NOT NOT take a few months to study for boards. I took 6 WEEKS, and so did a LOT of my classmates (I know a lot of AMG's who take roughly 5 or 6 weeks too). I never took any prep course, neither did a LOT of my classmates. Like me, a lot of my classmates scored well above 240+.

Maybe this (I know this does happen) at other carib schools, but don't go misrepresenting and putting false information in public forums. Your free to express your opinion, but watch it with the false info. :nono:

Oh yeah and good luck to everyone tomorrow for the MATCH!!! :soexcited:

oops. Sorry about the misinformation. I meant to say ROSS and a bunch of other no name Carib schools. Not SGU. SGU seems like the only legit school out there.
 
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I read your reply fine, I just thought it was rubbish. You did not say the quoted above in your first post. That sound? Must be the back-peddling.

215 is ~50%ile, and 240 is past the first SD therefore ~67-75%ile - how are these candidate so much different, with one being more "qualified" than the other? I understand how scores I used. I've played the game and continue to do so, but you have yet to demonstrate how they are actually anything meaningful, especially in regards to step 1 which is nothing more than a students ability to remember basic science. I've seen plenty of FMGs that practically have Harrison's memorized by have no freaking clue how to apply any of it.


Plus, look into the USMLE steps and what they mean... they were originally designed to be a test to see if you can have a minimal level of knowledge required to be a doctor. It was never the intention for it to be a way to evaluate or separate students. Some even wanted it to be pass/fail instead of a score. It wasn't until studies correlated step scores and board pass rates that the steps became a evaluation tool for applicants, and they still get it wrong, because its Step 2 that correlates but because of the fact not everyone has Step 2 scores in, Step 1 is used. But the fact that those involved in evaluating students don't even know how to read the step scores (people see the 99 2 digit score and think they were 99th percentile... thats why MOST places use the 3 digit score).

There really isn't any objective way to compare 2 people with different experiences... USMLE tests are not a good way to do it, because people taking the test in different periods the scores mean different percentiles (a 220 one year isn't the same as a 220 the next year, cause it could be the 40th percentile one year and the 50th the next year... if this is statistically signicantly different... if score is 220 with SD of 20, then really, are any of the scores significantly different?). Because clinical experiences are different, because even testing are different between schools, states, countries, there really isn't any way to objectively differentiate them. So that is why subjective measures come in, and why places put such a premium on the interview, and if you can't communicate effectively, then you suffer, which is an issue for many FMG's. The subjective measure of the poor quality of caribbean education (some warrented, mostly over-exagerated, even though they are at US hospitals, most academic places do not have these community hospitals in high regard) also makes them suffer.
 
my biggest beef with the match is the prematch. I mathched and am excited however my classmates that did not are wrongly handicapped by programs that prematch. It is a bs system and infuriates me.
 
Well many people are displeased by the fact that IMGs can prematch and argue that those who prematch in competitive specialties are taking away spots from well-qualified AMGs. I don't know enough of the details to certify if this view is justified, but getting rid of the prematch (on the basis that all match participants should abide by the same rules) would have the added benefit of silencing those who believe that IMGs are taking up spots before they even get a chance to match into them when the match algorithm runs.

This would be a good point to make in a thread entitled "Ok AMGs what do you REALLY think about the pre-matching process?"
 
It is wrong to think only in terms of the residency, because residents are here to get training for a future career. In actuality, residency counts for very little of the total good they will accomplish through their careers. If the very well trained foreign residents are going to head back to their home countries to provide a lifetime of care there, then why did we train them in the USA in the first place? We are supposed to be training doctors who are going to practice in in America. Experience counts for a lot. An attending with 15 years experience is typically going to provide better, more effective and efficient care for more people than a doctor in a fellowship. That is the purpose of residencies and fellowships.

Cultural exchange is great once in a while, but it shouldn't be the norm.

I am also an advocate of those looking to do charity service to do it in their own neighborhoods and cities, rather than going off to some distant land. Your own town needs help. It may not be glamorous, but do good in your own city.
 
It is wrong to think only in terms of the residency, because residents are here to get training for a future career. In actuality, residency counts for very little of the total good they will accomplish through their careers. If the very well trained foreign residents are going to head back to their home countries to provide a lifetime of care there, then why did we train them in the USA in the first place? We are supposed to be training doctors who are going to practice in in America. Experience counts for a lot. An attending with 15 years experience is typically going to provide better, more effective and efficient care for more people than a doctor in a fellowship. That is the purpose of residencies and fellowships.

Cultural exchange is great once in a while, but it shouldn't be the norm.

I am also an advocate of those looking to do charity service to do it in their own neighborhoods and cities, rather than going off to some distant land. Your own town needs help. It may not be glamorous, but do good in your own city.

Man am I glad I'm not like this. This is borderline repulsive to me...not that you could have these views, but that you think (and are almost certainly correct) that these are just mainstream, obvious "truths" about the world.

I'm saddened that you would rather some American patients get a very marginally better doctor than some non-Americans get a significantly better doctor. Please continue to vote and spend my tax dollars to make your dreams a reality. Yay.
 
oops. Sorry about the misinformation. I meant to say ROSS and a bunch of other no name Carib schools. Not SGU. SGU seems like the only legit school out there.
I cannot believe how wrong you are. I am a Ross student and we have a 5th semester, but it is not a review, it is a freaking waste of time where they had us rotating and driving all over miami. I know other caribbean schools have a 5th semester where a Kaplan review course is integrated on it, not ours. I also must point out that you generalize, I started medical school in January of 2007, took 3 weeks off for step 1(not 6 ) and 4 for step 2, and rocked the steps and guess what? I matched and will finish med school in only 3 years and 5 months because did not take time off to study for the steps , doing rotations back to back. I am an american IMG born and raised in Puerto Rico, and went to IV to a medical school in St. Louis, MO where I live, and guess what? was told in my interview that from all LCME's schools, the students from PR are the lowest first time pass rate from all LCME's so they assumed I will have the same trouble and that the likehood for me to be accepted was slim, besides since I also had 2 kids. I started crying right there since it was so cruel for this Dr. M (still the assistant dean at a local med school) to tell me right there. So what do you want me to do at the time ,give up? no I went to a caribbean medical school called Ross University, that allowed me to pursue my lifelong dream.
 
I cannot believe how wrong you are. I am a Ross student and we have a 5th semester, but it is not a review, it is a freaking waste of time where they had us rotating and driving all over miami. I know other caribbean schools have a 5th semester where a Kaplan review course is integrated on it, not ours. I also must point out that you generalize, I started medical school in January of 2007, took 3 weeks off for step 1(not 6 ) and 4 for step 2, and rocked the steps and guess what? I matched and will finish med school in only 3 years and 5 months because did not take time off to study for the steps , doing rotations back to back. I am an american IMG born and raised in Puerto Rico, and went to IV to a medical school in St. Louis, MO where I live, and guess what? was told in my interview that from all LCME's schools, the students from PR are the lowest first time pass rate from all LCME's so they assumed I will have the same trouble and that the likehood for me to be accepted was slim, besides since I also had 2 kids. I started crying right there since it was so cruel for this Dr. M (still the assistant dean at a local med school) to tell me right there. So what do you want me to do at the time ,give up? no I went to a caribbean medical school called Ross University, that allowed me to pursue my lifelong dream.

I love your story!
 
This would be a good point to make in a thread entitled "Ok AMGs what do you REALLY think about the pre-matching process?"

Considering that europeanIMG specifically asked in his original post "Do you think we come and take your jobs and lower your salaries?" I think the issue of prematching is entirely appropriate to this thread. As many posters in this thread have mentioned, they are upset that IMGs have prematched into competitive positions that many of their AMG friends with excellent capabilities failed to match in at all. If you fail to see how this could create a perception among AMGs (whether justified or not) that IMGs are stealing their jobs, thereby causing a negative impression of IMGs, then I believe we've reached a point at which any furthur discussion will fail to reconcile our views.
 
I just posted this in another area, but the bottom line for me is that US residency spots are funded by American tax dollars, IMGs should be treated as second class citizens. The number of US grads keep increasing, the number of funded residency spots are not increasing. If IMGs want equal treatment, let them go to the US for undergrad and med school, where they can occur upwards of 300k in debt like many american grads. IMGs should only be used to fill in spots that US grads absolutely do not desire. In fact I would consider doing a separate match for IMGs after the main residency match is completed.
 
I think the prematch is somewhat unfair to US students. One can't deny that these students (IMG, FMG and DO too) are taking spots in some competitive specialties like anesthesia, ER, etc. that many US grads would like to take...many equally qualified US grads. As far as what type of physicians they make, I've only trained at hospitals I consider to be good...and any DO/IMG/FMG people there were equally qualified and functioned as well as others...small caveat is that a few seem to have problems with English which impair them somewhat...mainly in regards to doctor/patient communication.

I think the prematch should be done away with, and there should be a 2nd match (instead of that stupid scramble). At least for intern spots, I think there should be only one match and no back door deals/prematches. This would be bad for people who finish off-cycle, though...right now that is mostly Caribbean grads, but not ONLY.

The issue of who pays for residents' salaries (US taxpayers, ultimately...) is also relevant, I think. I doubt that most other countries would use their tax revenues to pay for US born, US trained docs to go over there and train.

One the FMG/IMG/DO gets to my hospital, I am equal opportunity. Most people will not care where you are from if you can do your job.

I think there is some truth in the contention that Caribbean schools do more board prep, and/or allow more time to study for boards. We had 2-3 weeks maybe to cram for step 1, after getting reamed with multiple hard blocks/classes and exams at the end of 2nd year of med school. I think that a lot of the Caribbean schools realize that their students are at a disadvantage and they NEED to do well on boards, thus will allow students,or even force them, to do more prep for Step 1. Also, some students are in the Caribbean because they aren't good at standardized tests, at least in part, and their schools know that. It doesn't mean they won't be good doctors, but I think it's a fact.
 
I think the prematch is somewhat unfair to US students. One can't deny that these students (IMG, FMG and DO too) are taking spots in some competitive specialties like anesthesia, ER, etc. that many US grads would like to take...many equally qualified US grads. As far as what type of physicians they make, I've only trained at hospitals I consider to be good...and any DO/IMG/FMG people there were equally qualified and functioned as well as others...small caveat is that a few seem to have problems with English which impair them somewhat...mainly in regards to doctor/patient communication.

I think the prematch should be done away with, and there should be a 2nd match (instead of that stupid scramble). At least for intern spots, I think there should be only one match and no back door deals/prematches. This would be bad for people who finish off-cycle, though...right now that is mostly Caribbean grads, but not ONLY.

The issue of who pays for residents' salaries (US taxpayers, ultimately...) is also relevant, I think. I doubt that most other countries would use their tax revenues to pay for US born, US trained docs to go over there and train.

One the FMG/IMG/DO gets to my hospital, I am equal opportunity. Most people will not care where you are from if you can do your job.

I think there is some truth in the contention that Caribbean schools do more board prep, and/or allow more time to study for boards. We had 2-3 weeks maybe to cram for step 1, after getting reamed with multiple hard blocks/classes and exams at the end of 2nd year of med school. I think that a lot of the Caribbean schools realize that their students are at a disadvantage and they NEED to do well on boards, thus will allow students,or even force them, to do more prep for Step 1. Also, some students are in the Caribbean because they aren't good at standardized tests, at least in part, and their schools know that. It doesn't mean they won't be good doctors, but I think it's a fact.

I agree with this post..not so sure about the concept of the 2nd match. Agree with doing away with the prematch.

Just a small correction though; I believe IMGs pay tax once they get here.
 
I agree with this post..not so sure about the concept of the 2nd match. Agree with doing away with the prematch.

Just a small correction though; I believe IMGs pay tax once they get here.


Yes, but many of us have paid taxes in the US before residency, and more importantly our parents have paid a shizzload of taxes to this country over their careers. Potentially none of which they will get back in return if social security is truly going bankrupt.

I don't have anything personally against IMGs. I've worked with plenty (many from the Indian subcontinent) and found them to be very competent and confident in what they do. Part of what makes the US the greatest country in the world is that we do allow opportunities to outsiders and hope they will contribute to our collective futures. But I just feel they should only be used to fill our unmet needs, and in return they can eventually attain citizenship here and secure attending positions here. We should not have qualified AMGs going unmatched.
 
Yes, but many of us have paid taxes in the US before residency, and more importantly our parents have paid a shizzload of taxes to this country over their careers. Potentially none of which they will get back in return if social security is truly going bankrupt.

I don't have anything personally against IMGs. I've worked with plenty (many from the Indian subcontinent) and found them to be very competent and confident in what they do. Part of what makes the US the greatest country in the world is that we do allow opportunities to outsiders and hope they will contribute to our collective futures. But I just feel they should only be used to fill our unmet needs, and in return they can eventually attain citizenship here and secure attending positions here. We should not have qualified AMGs going unmatched.

This is much better. Your previous post was rather obnoxious.

So I think the bottom line should be that the prematch system should be done away with, and have a common match for both AMGs and IMGs where the seletion committees decide who they want to manage their patients, based on competency,etc all the other hoopla. Then AMGs get preference for the scramble; once all have matched or would rather go unmatched that year (set a deadline) then the unmatched IMGs should have a shot. In that way, I think most needs are fulfilled and competent residents should (ideally) get a chance to go to the best places, regardless of nationality. Its like just because one has taken loans to go to med school, AMGs arent entitled to go to Hopkins automatically; they ARE entitled a residency spot, ideally in the field of their choice. But to go to Hopkins anyone should still bust your ass off, and everyone busting their ass off that much should get a fair chance.

Lastly, I wonder if this was the purpose of the OP to have a discussion about the prematch and match, which is something non-modifiable. I guess it may be better to get back to the cultural differences, difficulties in working with IMGs that are perceived by AMGs, so that he/she can work on them.
 
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American taxpayers are the winners in this game. They get doctors without having to pay for their education. Also the more doctors there are in the US the lower the salaries for doctors will be, this means cheaper health care.

If someone has the right to be pissed it´s the taxpayers back in the IMG´s homeland! (And maybe the AMGs whose salaries will decline but NOT the American taxpayers.)

My country currently imports a lot of doctors from countries in Eastern Europe. There is a discussion about this, many ppl this it is immoral for a richer country (like Sweden) to brain drain poorer countries (like Poland).
 
Pretty heated discussion.

I am an IMG from South Africa. I hope to specialize in the US. I also intend to stay there for the foreseeable future, and would love to stay in academic medicine and teach. My main reason for wanting to go to the states is the quality of research done and level of care provided. In SA one often hits a ceiling because of resource constraints, so it is difficult to fulfill one's potential. Personally, I think I'll 'pay back' the tax investment spent on my training. However, that doesn't change much - it still sucks balls that US grads might go unmatched, and it probably isn't fair. Especially considering the fact that IMG's in J-1 Visas HAVE to go back to their country, resulting in a loss of newly tax-funded specialists.

I must, though, mention that the situation is not unique. I went to a good high school, which is pretty competitive to get into. As such, people from all over the country (and some people from adjacent countries) applied. However, since it is a state funded school, including funding from the local town, it is forced to accept students from it's 'draining area', which allows those students to get in by default. It is easy to see where this is going - several students essentially decide to f*ck around, since they are guaranteed a spot, and it brings the overall standard down. It is the only thing (IMHO) that has resulted in the school not having a 95-100% pass rate for 'matric', whilst almost always having students in the top 20, etc etc. I'm not saying it's exactly the same, but it's similar. If all US grads are guaranteed a spot, a fair amount of people won't be forced to work their assess off to get in, and this could be very detrimental.

Perhaps a compromise would be that a certain % of state funded residency spots HAVE to go to AMGs, and those that DO go to FMGs have a catch - you have to stay in the US for at least (say) 2-years AFTER your residency/fellowship during which time you get paid PGY-5/6 salaries.

I know I'd still go to the US without thinking about it. Hell, I'd go even if I'll never earn more than 50% of an AMG.
 
Having complete a residency .....trust me an IMG is allmost never preferred over an AMG. Also I agree that I am yet to see a lousy IMG. Believe me in my program they have preferred AMG DOs over IMG MDs and this is an unstated but very much practiced rule. The only spot that an IMG fills is pretty much a discarded spot which is slowly trending towards 1 to 2 / 26 spots here.

As an AMG you are preferred HOWEVER if you dont apply to enough programs and hence go unmatched ....its your flawed approach whch made you think you should be matched to one of the top 20 programs in the US. Guess what .....the top programs not only want residents .....they want the cream to maintain their status so if you are good AMG you will easily take over an excellent IMG but if you unfortunately are a lousy AMG you will probably loose to an excellent IMG.

Its a two way process if you want to get in you have to work some and not just put the responsibility entirely onto others.
 
You have never seen a lousy IMG? Are you serious? Admitting there are lousy IMGs does not mean all IMGs are lousy! Sometimes I think people take extreme opinions because they watch too much political commentary on TV and they think that admitting any fault at all means that their entire argument breaks down and becomes invalid. Real life doesn't work like that. There are lousy IMGs. There are terrific IMGs. There are good but not great IMGs.
 
Having complete a residency .....trust me an IMG is allmost never preferred over an AMG. Also I agree that I am yet to see a lousy IMG. Believe me in my program they have preferred AMG DOs over IMG MDs and this is an unstated but very much practiced rule. The only spot that an IMG fills is pretty much a discarded spot which is slowly trending towards 1 to 2 / 26 spots here.

As an AMG you are preferred HOWEVER if you dont apply to enough programs and hence go unmatched ....its your flawed approach whch made you think you should be matched to one of the top 20 programs in the US. Guess what .....the top programs not only want residents .....they want the cream to maintain their status so if you are good AMG you will easily take over an excellent IMG but if you unfortunately are a lousy AMG you will probably loose to an excellent IMG.

Its a two way process if you want to get in you have to work some and not just put the responsibility entirely onto others.

I completely agree with this....AMGs are always preferred, with 1-2 IMGs taken for "adding diversity". For example, UAB, which is an excellent program in Internal Medicine, had only 500 AMGs applying and 2500 IMGs. Still they will prefer to take their own students who have done med school here. Most of the AMGs who interview there, unless they are from Alabama or the South ,will not rank that program #1 (most, not all). Who is to blame?


You have never seen a lousy IMG? Are you serious? Admitting there are lousy IMGs does not mean all IMGs are lousy! Sometimes I think people take extreme opinions because they watch too much political commentary on TV and they think that admitting any fault at all means that their entire argument breaks down and becomes invalid. Real life doesn't work like that. There are lousy IMGs. There are terrific IMGs. There are good but not great IMGs.

This comment surprises me.

http://www.ucsfhealth.org/adult/cgi-bin/prd.cgi?action=DISPLAYDOCTOR&doctorid=1307
http://labmed.ucsf.edu/about/faculty/pathology-aabbas.html
http://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/research/data_admin/Site107/mainpageS107P0.html
http://crrtonline.com/conference/02_faculty_bio.php?facultybio=23

You need more?

It takes time, but many IMGs max out and really excel. As do many AMGs. Its about making most of the opportunities presented to you. I stand by my previous comment.
 
I just posted this in another area, but the bottom line for me is that US residency spots are funded by American tax dollars, IMGs should be treated as second class citizens. The number of US grads keep increasing, the number of funded residency spots are not increasing. If IMGs want equal treatment, let them go to the US for undergrad and med school, where they can occur upwards of 300k in debt like many american grads. IMGs should only be used to fill in spots that US grads absolutely do not desire. In fact I would consider doing a separate match for IMGs after the main residency match is completed.


I second this...It seems a waste of a resource to spend Federal Tax dollars to train a foreign grad who may turn around and go back to "country X" after completion of residency training (as many of the Indian residents at my Med school plan on doing), especially if there are unmatched AMGs who will more than likely stay and continue to contribute to the US health system and education of future AMGs. Sure, we get the benefit of cheap labor for a couple of years, but long term consequences regarding reinvestment of our resources is what concerns me. If IMGs want to train here, it should be after all AMGs have a home. Just my 2 cents
 
Oh please, as if the med school app process is 100% fail proof. Contrary to your wild imagination, not every US med student can handle medical school. They have the fortunate comfort of the school helping them to not fail.

Are you joking? Every classmate that has struggled where it wasn't some blip (like hating histology with a passion in the case of one of my friends) was weeded out strongly and removed from medical school (my friend had to make up the course, with strong warnings and mandatory counseling). People were given opportunities to remedy, but had to haul a$s in order to make it up. Now the CARIBBEAN on the other hand, I understand people can "decelerate" their semesters, take just small selections of courses at a time, fail entire subjects multiple times (and people do routinely based on the people I've spoken to), and still allowed to make up whole semesters. If that isn't the school helping them not achieve their dream of become a doctor then I don't know what is. Fortunately there are no Caribbean students in my imminent residency program and never will be.
 
Man am I glad I'm not like this. This is borderline repulsive to me...not that you could have these views, but that you think (and are almost certainly correct) that these are just mainstream, obvious "truths" about the world.

I'm saddened that you would rather some American patients get a very marginally better doctor than some non-Americans get a significantly better doctor. Please continue to vote and spend my tax dollars to make your dreams a reality. Yay.

:confused:
 
I'm staying out of this argument, b/c I'm bound to get real p/o... but I just wanted to interject, and say that this is TOTALLY NOT TRUE for SGU students. We do not have an extra semester for "high lights or something". We do NOT NOT NOT NOT take a few months to study for boards. I took 6 WEEKS, and so did a LOT of my classmates (I know a lot of AMG's who take roughly 5 or 6 weeks too). I never took any prep course, neither did a LOT of my classmates. Like me, a lot of my classmates scored well above 240+.

Maybe this (I know this does happen) at other carib schools, but don't go misrepresenting and putting false information in public forums. Your free to express your opinion, but watch it with the false info. :nono:

Oh yeah and good luck to everyone tomorrow for the MATCH!!! :soexcited:

Caribbean schools teach to the boards. Very understandably so, because that is the only thing that is (fairly or unfairly) an objective comparison between students, even though it is theoretically just a licensing exam. Every Caribbean school site will dedicate a significant chunk to USMLE / Board Pass information and what they do to help students prepare. I assume your tests were all in clinical vignette style, like the boards as well. I don't think any American schools teach to the boards, and to the chagrin of American students everywhere, our Deans are very staunch about NOT teaching to the boards. Actually, I think RFU/CMS also teaches to the boards but that may be the exception in American schools. I feel like once you hit that island, you are expected to hit the ground running with your board prep materials, which is partly why many of you are competent enough to pass. It is basically a two-year bootcamp culminating in the USMLE Step 1, at least that is what some of the Caribbean schools are like.

American students either realize they have to study totally differently for boards vs for classes. My biochemistry/physiology blocks for example, were a tour-de-force of aquaporins and the latest research about medium chain fatty acids. Totally useless for the boards. That can explain why some Americans don't do as well (or need to do as well, since our hospitals will naturally take us: except for this year's unprecedented unmatched #s!!).
 
This comment surprises me.

http://www.ucsfhealth.org/adult/cgi-bin/prd.cgi?action=DISPLAYDOCTOR&doctorid=1307
http://labmed.ucsf.edu/about/faculty/pathology-aabbas.html
http://www.childrenshospital.org/cfapps/research/data_admin/Site107/mainpageS107P0.html
http://crrtonline.com/conference/02_faculty_bio.php?facultybio=23

You need more?

It takes time, but many IMGs max out and really excel. As do many AMGs. Its about making most of the opportunities presented to you. I stand by my previous comment.

Um, hello? Did you read the entire post or just the last few words? Are you seriously trying to prove to me that many IMGs excel by giving me some links to IMGs who did excel? Do you think I am an idiot? Of course many IMGs excel! I said that already! I did not say all IMGs were good but not great. I said there was a spectrum, which is a statement that no one with even 1/4 of a brain could disagree with. Anyone who denies that there are excellent IMGs who outperform most AMGs is an idiot. Just like anyone who denies that there are poor IMGs who are poor physicians is an idiot. Most people, like anything in life, fall somewhere in the middle. Just because there are some excellent IMGs does not mean all other IMGs should be propped up and treated like the excellent one, just like how just because there are some poor ones doesn't mean all should be lumped into that category.

Part of the problem with this whole "debate" is that people are so damned defensive that they think everyone else is arguing with them and either has to be attacking all IMGs or defending all IMGs. People who hate IMGs act like they all suck. People who defend them act like all of them are Osler reincarnated, maybe with an accent. Those characterizations are stupid and unhelpful. That is not real life. In real life both good and bad exist.
 
Um, hello? Did you read the entire post or just the last few words? Are you seriously trying to prove to me that many IMGs excel by giving me some links to IMGs who did excel? Do you think I am an idiot? Of course many IMGs excel! I said that already! I did not say all IMGs were good but not great. I said there was a spectrum, which is a statement that no one with even 1/4 of a brain could disagree with. Anyone who denies that there are excellent IMGs who outperform most AMGs is an idiot. Just like anyone who denies that there are poor IMGs who are poor physicians is an idiot. Most people, like anything in life, fall somewhere in the middle. Just because there are some excellent IMGs does not mean all other IMGs should be propped up and treated like the excellent one, just like how just because there are some poor ones doesn't mean all should be lumped into that category.

Part of the problem with this whole "debate" is that people are so damned defensive that they think everyone else is arguing with them and either has to be attacking all IMGs or defending all IMGs. People who hate IMGs act like they all suck. People who defend them act like all of them are Osler reincarnated, maybe with an accent. Those characterizations are stupid and unhelpful. That is not real life. In real life both good and bad exist.

Your last statement made it sound that way. Anyway, I agree with your point about people going all out.

I am actually appalled to read some of the comments on this forum/thread, about "second-class citizens",etc. I wouldnt in my right mind even think of a concept like that. I am also seeing people going all out and saying ban IMGs....and then coming back and saying "just take away the prematches...then everything is okay".

I agree there is a spectrum, and there is good and bad. The IMGs need to pull up their socks because they are in a different environment, and need to work in tune with the new culture.

And the NRMP obviously has to sort out issues (soon) that will ensure that every US grad wont go unemployed...and there is a fair game where one group doesnt really get special preferences over the other.
 
Are you joking? Every classmate that has struggled where it wasn't some blip (like hating histology with a passion in the case of one of my friends) was weeded out strongly and removed from medical school (my friend had to make up the course, with strong warnings and mandatory counseling). People were given opportunities to remedy, but had to haul a$s in order to make it up. Now the CARIBBEAN on the other hand, I understand people can "decelerate" their semesters, take just small selections of courses at a time, fail entire subjects multiple times (and people do routinely based on the people I've spoken to), and still allowed to make up whole semesters. If that isn't the school helping them not achieve their dream of become a doctor then I don't know what is. Fortunately there are no Caribbean students in my imminent residency program and never will be.

At my Caribbean school if you fail the same class twice you are expelled. If you fail more than 17 credit hours (~3-4 classes) you are expelled. If you are not done with basic sciences or not on track to finish basic sciences in 7 semesters you are expelled. (normally its 5 semesters in 20months on a trimester system) Decelling is the same as withdrawing or failing a class. Its just another way of saying you're no longer on track to graduate on time. You can take less than the normal hours but you run the risk of not finishing in 7 semesters... resulting in expulsion.

There is no remediation for failing at my school... no makeup summer course or exam retakes.

The rules are similar for the top 4 Caribbean schools which are the only 4 schools in the Caribbean where the graduates can practice in California. I don't know which schools the people you have spoken to go to... but it must be one of the lower tier schools without federal loans and without the approval to practice in California.
 
man this hating on FMGs has been going on forever. before most of the people blabbing in this thread were even born. my dad came here as an FMG back in the day and started his first surgical residency. i say first because back then nobody was guaranteed to finish as all surgery residencies were pyramidal (look it up if u don't know what it means). as expected he was let go without explanation after 2 years as were most of the FMGs and a few AMGs. back then they didn't have to document, explain, or justify why...they just told u that u were no longer welcome and that was that. imagine if they dismissed all the FMGs in a residency now....hello multimillion dollar class action lawsuit! anyway he spent the next few years working menial jobs until another surgical residency a few states over took him in....starting back as PGY1. so by now the residents he started with were attendings at various hospitals and he was back at being an intern. how many US med students do u know who wud work as a janitor/busboy/dishwasher for a few years if they got kicked out of their coveted residency for no justifiable reason and then wud start all over as an intern again? the ones i know start crying if they go unmatched and wud probably be on suicide watch if they got kicked out of residency.

anyway he plowed ahead and finally made it. you've probably never even heard of his med school back in the old country. but by tons of hard work and dedication he became an awesome surgeon. he cud have listened to all the haters and quit but he didn't, he kept going until he made it. now people on this thead are saying the same kind of critical things he and every other FMG has heard back then too. different era, same old song. just plow ahead and turn a deaf ear to the naysayers and haters like my old man did. this country is still one where hard work is rewarded. it may take longer and u may have to take a detour or two...but as long as u don't quit you're still in the game. and this is coming from a US born and bred med student.
 
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