What do you guys think

[Overthetop]

I am 28 years old and want to apply to medical school next year. My problem is that while I did well in my GPA outside of science (3.84), my science GPA was only a 2.3. I worked really hard studying the sciences but just couldn't do any better. I scored a 16 on the MCAT and don't plan on retaking it because I dont think I will improve. I just really want to be a physician as I have worked in the medical field for 6 years and really have a gift with patient interaction and have been told by many docs that I would be an excellent physician. Friends have told me to consider DO school because it is easier to gain admittance and might fit my personality better than MD school. I really never thought I had a chance until I heard about osteopathic school and now my hopes and dreams are alive again. What do you guys think and could you give me a little background on the philosophy? Thanks

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[ReneeWB]

While many students do apply to DO schools as back-up or because they don't have the numbers for MD school, I don't think your numbers will get you there. I'm afraid this will sound harsh, but seriously if you couldn't hack the undergrad science stuff, chances are you won't be able to make it in med school. The numbers needed for admittance to DO schools have risen over the past several years. Some of them are still lower than MD schools, but there are others that are up there with MD schools (TCOM for example). Even the lower ones expect at the very least 7's and 8's.

I understand the feeling of wanting to be a physician and/or work with people. There ARE other fields in which you can help patients without being a doctor. If you really think you have this calling, you are going to have to head back to class and make up some ground on that science GPA. An MCAT of 16 only averages to 5.3 -- you really need at least an average of 8. With that you will also need some outstanding extracurrics and some great life experiences.

I hope that I haven't totally discouraged you, but I am also really disappointed to know that there are still so many people out there that think it is EASY to get into DO schools. Far from it! Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do.

Renee

 

[Henry]

First of all, although DO schools do consider applicants in many aspects, besides just grade alone, each applicant is required to exceed the basic requirement. Every medical school has some kind of base line. You got to pass that line before they even want to open your file and review your detail profile.

Please pardon me in telling the truth, although your GPA is very strong, your science GPA is too weak! Plus your MCAT score also indicated that your need improvement in order to get in any medical schools in the US.

Knowing how to work with patient is one of the required element for a physician. But your capability to reach accurate diagnosis is also a crucial component. (And that capability comes from studying and training.)

A doctor with a kind heart but without skills will not save any life. You need the combination of both.

Your grades can not persuade the admissions folks to believe you can make it through medical school. The intensive workload in medical school is just tremedeous.

If your are serious about being a physician, take my humble suggestion, you need to study harder, much much harder and wiser . Improve both your GPA and MCAT.

I wish you good luck

 

[Richard]

Don't be swayed by what everyone around you has said: Entrance into medical school, whether it be an osteopathic program or an allopathic program isn't easy. Your science GPA is very low and would lead an admissions committee to wonder whether you can handle the heavy science load. Your MCAT scores are also very low. I would advise you to enter a masters program or a post-grad. program that is science based and retake the MCAT. If medicine is career path that you are truly interested in it shouldn't be a problem to spend another couple of years studying and preparing for the MCAT so that you can increase your chances of being admitted. You haven't provided any information to the extent of your science background. How many of the pre reqs have you completed? If you have only taken a few than I wouldn't worry too much, I would just study a little harder. If all your science courses are complete, than I think you need to spend some time taking additional courses. What did you do to prepare for the MCAT? Did you walk into the test cold? Did you complete all the required classes that are necessary to score well? We don't have the whole story so it is difficult to judge where you are coming from. Based on what you have told us thus far I would have to say that there is little to no chance at being accepted until you improve your GPA and your MCAt scores.

Richard, MSII

 

[UHS2002]

I too find annoying that there is this misconception around that one can get into an osteopathic program with numbers that are much lower than those of allopathic institutions. Most osteopathic programs' requirements compare to those of middle tier allopathic institutions. There is one osteopathic program (which shall remain unnamed, by me, at least) which considers applicants with average MCAT scores of 7's, but that is as low is it gets and even this one school requires science GPA of 3.0 or up. This is not any different than the published average MCAT scores for one of the minority allopathic schools. And it is still way higher than your numbers.

If you do not wish to go back to college and retake your pre recs plus a ton more science to bring up your science GPA (in addition to retaking the MCAT, of course), you could try one of the Caribbean med schools. I would not recommend it, because if you indeed have this much trouble with the sciences, it is unlikely that you will manage to pass the USMLE when the time comes, particularly given the level of education provided by some of the Caribbean schools. Then you would have wasted a couple of years of your life and a lot of money for nothing, although you may enjoy a good vacation in the Caribbean...

As ReneeWB said, there are many other health care careers that have lesser requirements for admissions and can enable you to interact with patients. Chiropractic and RN, particularly a Community College based program, come to mind.

 

[smh]

Let's not forget that there are other options within the health care arena which are not science based. I would suggest looking into areas such as health administration or public health. Ask yourself - where are my academic strengths? If you have a talent for ethics, maybe consider health policy or health law. If you enjoy teaching, maybe health education is more for you. Do you have a mind for business? We desperately need people who are interested in both the bottom line AND quality care for EVERYONE. No, these are not specifically "front line" career paths, but you would still be helping people and making a difference in your own area of expertise.

Just a suggestion. Best of luck to you!

 

[Overthetop]

Thanks for all the feedback guys but I am a little bit confused. I have been told by many people, including many physicians that osteopathic medical school is composed primarily of people with numbers like mine who most likely can't get into MD school but who will still be decent physicians. Am I wrong? I took a semester of post-bac pre-med classes and came out with a C average so i dropped the program. I was spending 5-6 hours a day studying am still came out with a C average and didn't think it would help me in the application process. What schools MD and DO will look at an applicant with numbers like mine? I would obviously prefer to attend MD school but if DO school is all that I can get that is fine. I appreciate all the feedback and hope it continues

 

[ReneeWB]

Perhaps we have all been so afraid that we would hurt your feelings that we haven't made ourselves clear. Your current numbers WILL NOT get you into any medical school in the U.S. It is unfortunate that you are being told otherwise, but these people are not well informed. You mentioned that physicians are telling you this. Chances are these physicians are not aware of the upward trend in numbers for DO schools. You need to check out some of the sites which will show you average MCATs and GPA's for the various MD and DO schools. I don't have those web addresses, but I'm sure someone else here does.

Let me reiterate what I said earlier: IF you are convinced that you absolutely must apply to med school, don't apply with your current numbers! You will just be throwing away your money! You simply MUST bring up your GPA AND your MCAT. My GPA and MCAT's(8's) were only average and it took me two years to get in to a DO school.

I am really sorry if this news is disappointing to you; I am also sorry that others around you have given false hope.

I TRULY wish you much success & happiness in your future.

Renee

 

[adri]

overthetop,
what life experiences have you had?..there may be a slim chance that your app would get noticed if you had a reason for your sci gpa being so low? do you have children?...did you travel during school? if i were you i would take a year of sci courses to pick up the numbers and i would retake the mcat.your score will improve if you practice taking it again and again (practice tests).commitees (although very unsaid) take into account if you are a minority... they might forgive your grades. there are also post-bac programs that help pre-meds with the mcat and sci courses...talk to a premed advisor for details
good luck
adriana

 

[DOPhD student]

I hate to interject when others are doing so well but I just couldn't help myself. Please don't go around spreading the ignorance that DO schools take rejected MD applicants with your stats. While it is certainly true that there are MD applicant rejectees who attend DO schools, their stats are still significantly higher than yours. MCAT scores range around 8-10 subsection (at least at my school). My score certainly was not the highest in my class, but even if you multiply your score by 2, I still need to subtract a few points from mine to make ours equal. Get the point? If you have such uninformed perception about DO schools, perhaps, you should just look into fields other than osteopathy.

 

[prefontaine]

overthetop, studies have shown that students with MCATs <21 have an extremely difficult time in medical school, do poorly on boards and often take five or more years to finish school.

Your science #s and MCATs are horrible, even for a minority. Your posts indicate a consistent track record of struggling with basic sciences. The reality is that most people do not have what it takes to complete medical school and you are probably one of them. At least you are not alone.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

You Stated: I have been told by many people, including many physicians that osteopathic medical school is composed primarily of people with numbers like mine who most likely can't get into MD school but who will still be decent physicians.

Ouch. I guess this is what you get when you ask MDs about DOs? I often tell people that if you want to learn about France then you should visit France and speak to a Frenchman. You DEFINITELY should not talk to your nextdoor neighbor who once had lunch with a Frenchman and assume you'll find unbiased truth.

Also, if you had to struggle through post-bacc classes to the point that 5-6 hours of studying would only grant you a C, then why would you have the desire to study even more scientifically-advanced material? Your overall GPA was good, so clearly you have a knack for some other field -- so why do yourself a disservice by pursuing a field that is packed with the type of material you must struggle with? Maybe you would enjoy the fulfillment and prestige of medicine, but the actual science of medicine is a MUCH bigger part of medical practice.

Lastly, you said: "I would obviously prefer to attend MD school but if DO school is all that I can get that is fine"

Grrrrr... "Is all that I can get?!" Since when is being given the opportunity to study medicine an "all that I can get" issue?! You were badly, badly misinformed. You will find many people here with very good numbers -- and many (myself included) chose DO schools for a variety of reasons. Furthermore, I know of at least six "regulars" here with advanced degrees (again, myself included) -- hardly the type of people that are second-rate to MD students. The students you will meet here are not the "rejected flunkies" your physician friends made us out to be. Sorry to disappoint you.

Good luck to you.

[This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited May 26, 1999).]

 

[Bryan123]

I don't beleive Overthetop is a legitimate canidate, I think they are trolling for reactions and having fun pissing off a few of us osteo folk. "If a DO is all I can get...keep the feedback coming...I study 5-6 hours w/a C avg...Non science GPA 3.84 - science 2.3...MCAT 16." Have you guys ever heard of stats like these? Science classes aren't that different from nonscience classes.
This person is pulling our collective chain-
try not to take personally,

Bryan

 

[Synergy]

UHS2002, I think I know what school you are talking about. They take mostly in-state people and it is why their MCAT avgs are lower, BUT, by no means can you get into ANY DO school with a 16 (embarrassing, I could take it COLD and score at least a 20, I would guess! and a 2.3 GPA OUCH!)

Overthetop,
I, unlike the other people here am not going to be nice to you. Quite frankly, you have ticked me off. Those old naive MDs you talked to don't have a clue. I have encountered them. D.O. schools are NOT EASY TO GET INTO. Look at the averages my delusional friend. Take a look. No wonder you have a terrible GPA and MCAT. Look, like it or not, the whole thing about MCATs and GPAs is that they are predictors of how well you will do in med school and especially the USMLE or COMLEX. They are standardized exams like the MCAT. If you have a problem with the MCAT, you may have a problem passing the boards. This is the concern. You may be able to make a fine physician, but all indicators show that you will have a hard time with medical school and the boards. What makes you think that you should be in medical school when someone with better grades, and MCATs with the same amount of compassion (or more) than you needs a spot too. This is the dilemma medical school admissions have. They have to weed out some people because there are not enough spots in a class. So people like you will not even make the first cut. They may send you a secondary to get your money, but you'll be weeded out right away with those grades. I have a high GPA >3.5, and a science GPA >3.5, and an MCAT >30. I was accepted to one MD school, and by a few DO schools. This is my second time applying! I was wait-listed at one MD school last time, and not even interviewed at a DO school! What do you think about the ease of getting into DO school now? This is the biggest crock spread around by pre-meds. Yes, it may be slightly easier by the numbers to get into DO schools, but they also look for the total package. I have 2 B.S.s (Engineering and Biology/Math & Psychology minors) and a Masters in Anatomy & Physiology. So no, it ain't easy. Concerning the Caribbean, you better be sure you can hack the material, because other than St. Georges, any of the other schools will take you. They will take your money, thats all they care about. I wish you luck, but please get that silly notion out of your head. Apply, and waste your money if you will, but you'll find out when you get the rejections, and no interviews that we all speaketh the truth.

 

[smh]

Listen everyone, we all know that the info given to Overthetop was bad. Furthermore, a number of individuals have pointed this out gently and bluntly. If Overthetop wants to continue to believe his/her scores will pass muster - fine. I'm sure all of our schools could use the free money and wouldn't mind sending out another "Thanks, but no thanks" letter.

Overthetop, I don't mind saying that I too am irritated by your verbage. Just to add to my colleagues' testimonials, I attended a top undergrad school and went on to earn a Master of Science in physiology. I have presented at a national conference and am published. I have high MCAT scores and have a great deal of direct patient care experience. I am currently on the waitlist at two MD schools and have been accepted by my first choice DO school. I am quite proud to be able to say I am going to be a DO. I really hope you take some time to really re-evaluate your decision to go into medicine.

 

[UHS2002]

I think this is becoming a very funny tread, LOL.

Here is Overthetop who is either:
a)pulling our chain
b)knows only MDs who are older than, hmmmm, let's say 50's.
c)knows only MDs who are making fun of him/her
d)doesn't want to get it
e)B and C are correct
f)B, C and D are correct

(see guys, I have been taking too many tests, I can only think in "multiple choice" now)

Overthetop, in the event you are indeed serious, I guess nothing we can say will dissuade you...It is your money and time, so if you really think your MD "advisors" are right, go for it! Apply to all the DO schools and wait for an interview. And if your heart is really set on MD schools, apply to several of those too. As a matter of fact, Johns Hopkins doesn't even require MCAT scores.

Even though everyone tried to be nice about it, you must at least understand (if nothing else)that your comments were somewhat offensive to all here. A lot of people here are not MD wannabes, or MD rejects and even those who also applied to MD schools and did not gain acceptance, had stats FAR above yours. So implying that we all are going to be DOs because we didn't do well in our science classes is a little miffing. As Gregory mentioned, many people here hold advanced degrees in the sciences and had very competitive numbers.

I am also very curious: you said you worked in the medical field for 6 years. In what capacity???

 

[Overthetop]

I am so sorry if I upset a few of you but there is no reason to start yelling at me. I didn't yell at any of you. Since I first posted here I have done some research and I must say if DOPHD has a 35 on the MCAT, which is what i can infer from his post, I am surprised he isn't at an MD school since looking bak at some old posts he regrets going to a DO school. Also synergy why did you make the choic to attend DO school over MD school if you are tired of explaining your choice and you actually did get into MD school.

I was only going on second hand information from doctors who I would think would tell the truth when answering a question about the medical field. My goal is to become a cardiovascular surgeon and if the DO route is how I have to go I will do that. That is my choice, besides I am a minority student and have plenty of life experience (peace corps, work experience, etc..) excellent letters and I am a very compassionate person. I do take offense to the individual who mentioned he had more compassion than me because he had higher numbers. That is wrong. To all the rest of you I really appreciate you comments and liek I said I hope you responses continiue and that I will b joining you in med school, even if it is only DO school someday. Listen I am of the opinion that the person is the one who makes the most of their medical education and if the DO route is the backdoor way to become a physician that is fine by me because in the long run I know I will be a quality doctor.

 

[DOGBOY]

YIKES!

 

[ReneeWB]

Okay, everyone. Take a look. Overthetop's last post was at 7:58 and was quickly followed by DOGBOY's (at 8:00) which didn't contain his usual snide remarks. Draw your own conclusions, but I think it is time to end this thread! Enough said.

Renee

 

[DOGBOY]

Excuse me Rennee but I thought YIKES said it all. Also I did say and I was sincere when I said this that I would never ever put down the osteoapthic profession and that i have the utmost respect for DO's. I may make snide remarks but in terms of this I am serious. Please now. If oyu are looking at the time of the posts you have a little too much time on your hands, which I guess i do too this morning.

 

[smh]

Again, "...only a DO...", "...backdoor route..." Please Overthetop, do everyone a favor and at least TRY to be diplomatic. If you are serious about applying to DO school, you will need a recommendation from a DO. Insulting him/her by making these types of comments is not going to make a very good impression...

 

[Gregory Gulick]

Renee, I'm with you. A message wherein we find "only a D.O." and the classic "backdoor" analogy? A complete troll, no doubt. I, for one, am done with this bogus thread.

(For those of you not familiar with internet lingo, a "troll" is a message posted of questionable content that is intendend to spark flame wars.)

[This message has been edited by Gregory Gulick (edited May 26, 1999).]

 

[Doreen]

"...besides, I am a minority student..."
Do you think this is what will get you into a D.O. school? I am a minority also with a 3.49 gpa and 31 MCAT and did not get in to an MD or DO school the first time I applied. I agree with UHS2002, apply and see if you get in because there is no way you can get in with such low stats. I really believe this is a joke. Overthetop, if you really want to go into medicine but don't want to retake the MCAT, then I suggest podiatry school or a foreign med school like Ross, AUC, UNIBE, UTESA, Spartan, etc.

 

[UHS2002]

Overthetop

you still haven't answer my question: in what health profession have you been for the past 6 years?

 

[Sheon]

I've got lots of time, so I am going to offer my reasoning for why I think overthetop is a troll:

1) Post-bacc programs for medical school offer pre-requisite courses in the first year. If they dropped after one semester, they didn't complete all the prerequisites. How can they apply this summer? They can't!!! The post-bacc program would have made them aware of what courses were required at the outset of the program.

2) They were studious enough to research the background of individuals posting on this thread, but not studious enough to research the "...background on the philosophy," of osteopathy.

3) They put on the front of trying to rationalize their numbers, but only offer that they are a minority in the third post. It is likely that any minority that chose not to mention the fact that they were minority in the first two posts would not do so in the third.

4) They almost certainly took the MCAT before completing the prerequisite courses, but claim they don't think they could do any better.

5) They claim to want to be a cardiovascular surgeon

 

[Synergy]

He would have a hard time getting into podiatry school with those MCATs (see you're assuming DPMs are rejects too) and a caribbean school like St. Georges which has an avg MCAT of around 25.

Overthetop, I chose going to a D.O. school for several reasons. First of all, it doesn't matter much if you have DO or MD after your name. Second, I am more holistic, believe in preventative medicine, and I believe in taking care of the initial cause of a problem instead of just taking care of the symptoms. For instance, getting people to chance their diet to battle high cholesterol is better to me than giving them a pill. Yes, I am aware that many allopathic medical schools are great in these areas now, but the allopathic school I was accepted to has the "old" mentality. I looked into it quite a bit, and I just knew that I was not going to fit in too well at this particular allopathic program. It's similar to finding your spouse. You must just go together great in order to have a good marriage. Get it. I am "successful" in life by following my heart and instincts. My post was just to express my frustration with ignorant people concerning my choice of becoming a D.O. Nothing more. Many incorrect assumptions have been made from this post. I regret ever mentioning it at all now.
Also, it is quite a pipe dream to think you can be a cardiovascular surgeon with your attitude and stats. Get a life. I think you are just "trolling" as Gregory said, and I will no longer respond to your nonsense. So "troll" away if you must.

 

[DOPhD student]

Overthetop my boy, listen and listen carefully to my words. First, stop using the nick "Overthetop" when "Overtheedge" or "Underacheiver" suits you more appropriately. Second, your guess was off but just shy of 1 point (ie., my MCAT was 34) and I did not get into any in-state M.D. school, but Temple U. did take me. I turned it down after deciding to pursue a career in research. I do not regret my decision. My only regret was having to deal with numbskulls like you, who are not even a medical student, for Christ's sake. If DOs get the universal respect and recognition they deserve, then my concern would be a non-issue because the initials behind one's name do not make a person a physician, but practicing medicine competently and compassionately does. In spite of my occasional dissatisfaction with the D.O. profession's leadership, I am gratetful for the opportunity given me, so for someone with your obvious lack of intellect to casually make claims that if that's all you can get, then you're willing to settle for it. Tough **** my son, apply and let see how far you get. I take great offense to your statement that DO schools are backdoor to anything. Check again, they award the D.O. degree not the M.D. degree, so osteopathy is a distinct profession, even if only on paper. Last but not least, I hope you don't get to any medical school, much less mine. You will only flunk the boards and give us all a bad reputation. Good day. Even if this thread remains open, I will not follow it. You've got all the attention from me that you deserve.

 

[Allison]

Now for something completely different (I haven't been here for a while so feel like getting my giggles

Overthetop, if by some miraculous unfortunate twist of utterly terrible fate we should meet someday and I actually realize who you are I would first get you into a full Nelson and wring your little neck around for a while, then pull your arms and legs until you had the mother of all somatic dysfunctions (look it up ace), then I would tell all my DO colleagues to deny you treatment. Several painful Soma, Perkaset and flexoril filled years later (of course prescribed to you by an MD examining you from the other side of his/her desk), I would offer you treatment, I would actually lay my hands on you and remove the barriers that inhibit full function, yes, we can do that! Then and only THEN would you, pathetic little weasel that you are, realize why more and more people not only use osteopathic doctors, but prefer them. Teheheheh, that was fun!

 

[MedGirl]

Overthetop,
If you are telling the truth about your stats then you have two choices:
1) Make a commitment to getting into medical school - get help with study skills, take more sciences courses and retake the MCAT. If you are really dedicated to becoming a physician then do not let anyone tell you that you are not qualified. Keep trying to improve your science background so that you can prove to the schools that you can do well in medical school.
2) Consider another career - There are many other healthcare careers that will give you the satisfaction of working with patients if that is what you desire. Nursing, Physician Assistant's, Radiology Therapist, Respiratory Therapist or Physical Therapist are just a few to consider. Although all of these fields also require science courses the required science GPA's are slightly lower than medical school requirements. You could also consider an area of medicine that doesn't require as much science background such as the business area of healthcare, healthcare administration or health information management. One interesting field to consider is a Patient Advocate. These individuals usually have a nursing background but are performing a service with a combination of nursing, healthcare, and business knowledge.
Good Luck