What do you hate most about the pre-med process?

[Turkishking]

Then why are you on a website filled with pre meds?


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It's sort of like my hobby.

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[mwsapphire]

I like to gain knowledge, and to get ahead of the students at my University. It's sort of like my hobby. If I met you in person and found out you were a Bio major/pre-med I wouldn't associate with you.

Gee.Thanks.


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[altblue]

I like to gain knowledge, and to get ahead of the students at my University. It's sort of like my hobby. If I met you in person and found out you were a Bio major/pre-med I wouldn't associate with you.

You're leaving an excellent impression

Edit: I've never understood this mentality, the one of avoiding pre meds. Maybe I just get along well with people or have been lucky but most of the pre-meds I've talked to have been fine to me and we're chill, even the competitive ones. The three most, well, ambitious ones I met were also wonderful people, if a bit too ambitious. I've met maybe 5 premeds I've felt iffy about.

 

[Turkishking]

You're leaving an excellent impression

 

[freak7]

You're leaving an excellent impression

It was even more excellent when he had "Dr." Love as his profile pic.

 

[Turkishking]

 

[altblue]

View attachment 218511

Such a shame he flushed his future down the drain for a con job. Seemed like a really bright guy.

 

[Turkishking]

You're leaving an excellent impression

Edit: I've never understood this mentality, the one of avoiding pre meds. Maybe I just get along well with people or have been lucky but most of the pre-meds I've talked to have been fine to me and we're chill, even the competitive ones. The three most, well, ambitious ones I met were also wonderful people, if a bit too ambitious. I've met maybe 5 premeds I've felt iffy about.

I've just never had positive experiences. I've had pre-meds steal my notes, I had them tell me to switch career paths, and use me. So I just avoid them now even though I am one.

 

[leagueofDravenMD]

Many schools will allow you to use other writing-heavy courses in lieu of English semesters (for example philosophy classes)

And some schools firmly do not substitute "writing intensive" for english.


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[altblue]

I've just never had positive experiences. I've had pre-meds steal my notes, I had them tell me to switch career paths, and use me. So I just avoid them now even though I am one.

I've had pre meds swear at me for getting ahead in class, I've had one look off of my exam, I've had one not work with me in lab for what I suspect was a negative evaluation of my intelligence (I ended up doing well) , and those help make up three of the five I didn't like. But the dozen I got to know decently well and others I barely knew were fine people. A few I'd call my best friends.

Unless you go to Chicago or Hopkins or someplace where there's a breeding ground for uncompetitive behavior honestly I highly doubt you've encountered enough bad premeds to dismiss the group altogether. Maybe your perception is the issue

 

[bioboy23]

I hate that people who aren't well-versed in the process are certain you'll get in when you apply. It is a total gamble and nothing is guaranteed. Except stress. That **** is guaranteed.

 

[AntsInMyEyes_Johnson]

The fact that it took me till Junior year to fully come to terms with my decision to pursue this path we're all on.
I don't know why, but I constantly had this feeling like maybe I wasn't cut out for this, or maybe I should have chosen a different career.

"Why do I even want to become a doctor?" "Am I ready to sacrifice the next 10 years of my life for this?" "Who the hell invented this torturous process to become a doctor in the first place?" "When did anyone say, 'You know what? Let's subject those little pre-med b*stards to a 7 hour and 30 minute exam, that should put a nice fire under their a**es' "

These questions were constantly bombarding my head day after day. I know some of the SDNers are purely bred for the sole purpose of becoming doctors (or at least it seems like they believe it), but, for some of us, making that leap and fully surrendering our time, effort, and sanity to this process has been the hardest thing to do. Harder than any of the countless exams, crazy professors, overly-competitive fellow students, the MCAT, or anything else... just finally getting around to saying "f*ck it, I'm all in."

Come next cycle, some of us will finally get to see the River.

 

[reaction mechanisms]

So time consuming! I know it's a marathon and not a sprint but man I wish it was a sprint sometimes!


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[altblue]

The fact that it took me till Junior year to fully come to terms with my decision to pursue this path we're all on.
I don't know why, but I constantly had this feeling like maybe I wasn't cut out for this, or maybe I should have chosen a different career.

"Why do I even want to become a doctor?" "Am I ready to sacrifice the next 10 years of my life for this?" "Who the hell invented this torturous process to become a doctor in the first place?" "When did anyone say, 'You know what? Let's subject those little pre-med b*stards to a 7 hour and 30 minute exam, that should put a nice fire under their a**es' "

These questions were constantly bombarding my head day after day. I know some of the SDNers are purely bred for the sole purpose of becoming doctors (or at least it seems like they believe it), but, for some of us, making that leap and fully surrendering our time, effort, and sanity to this process has been the hardest thing to do. Harder than any of the countless exams, crazy professors, overly-competitive fellow students, the MCAT, or anything else... just finally getting around to saying "f*ck it, I'm all in."

Come next cycle, some of us will finally get to see the River.

As am I brotha. My parents didn't particularly mind what path I took in life, so I wasn't told I'd become a doctor from day one. It's been my decision to take these hard classes and attempt to get into med school, and it wasn't until this winter that I felt reasonably confident in my decision. If things do pan out and I get in, I'm going to have a rather long commitment.

 

[Lardy Boy]

You have to be so well rounded that you put a circle to shame


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[stickgirl390]

I hate how expensive the pre-med process is. By the time you have completed the MCAT, primary applications, secondary applications, and interviews, you will have shelled out thousands of dollars just for the possibility of getting into med school.

This!!!^^^ The price tag on just applying to medical school continues the socioeconomic divide that is already in our country. Yes the fee assistance program helps, but I'm sure the price tag deters many people from attempting med school in the first place.

 

[stickgirl390]

I don't like the concept that pursuing medical school for the paycheck that comes from being a doctor is looked down upon as "inappropriate" motivation. If someone's sole reason for wanting to attend med school is "doctors make a lot of money", then they obviously will struggle getting an acceptance. However, I feel it is perfectly fine if someone's 4th, 3rd, or even 2nd reason for applying is the pay. Anyone willing to commit 12+ years and put themselves $100,000+ in debt for their career BETTER get compensated at the end of it, or no one would choose this path!

Long story short: I wish their wasn't such a negative stigma surrounding the draw of med school for the money.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This!!!^^^ The price tag on just applying to medical school continues the socioeconomic divide that is already in our country. Yes the fee assistance program helps, but I'm sure the price tag deters many people from attempting med school in the first place.

Also the fee assistance program is structured in such a way that certain people can't qualify for it even though they might need it.

 

[Lucca]

I don't like the concept that pursuing medical school for the paycheck that comes from being a doctor is looked down upon as "inappropriate" motivation. If someone's sole reason for wanting to attend med school is "doctors make a lot of money", then they obviously will struggle getting an acceptance. However, I feel it is perfectly fine if someone's 4th, 3rd, or even 2nd reason for applying is the pay. Anyone willing to commit 12+ years and put themselves $100,000+ in debt for their career BETTER get compensated at the end of it, or no one would choose this path!

Long story short: I wish their wasn't such a negative stigma surrounding the draw of med school for the money.

I don't have a problem with being motivated by money as long as someone actually wants to do the job. My problem with being motivated by money is that it just doesn't make all that much sense to me. Maybe I have too many friends in engineering and CS but they will be making much more money than I will, much faster, with less training and debt. Some of my friends are making 90-120k straight out of college. Financially, it's a much smarter decision to do that and start building wealth early.

 

[efle]

Financially, it's a much smarter decision to do that and start building wealth early.

I think financially, it still works out in favor of the docs. ~7-10 year delay and 180k debt, followed by physician salary for 30+ years, still comes out better in the long run.

 

[CCmetal94]

I feel the whole process inherently puts poorer students at a greater disadvantage. Many of these kids (including myself) are already using loans just to pay for undergrad. They hold a job, or multiple, while trying to keep their GPA up, volunteer, shadow, research, and other ECs. Then the application process hits. If you are a borderline applicant (need to apply to 25+schools) you are even more screwed. You have to come up with thousands of dollars for primaries, secondaries, travel, and deposits (DO schools looking at you here). God forbid a car breaks down or you have a medical emergency. An expensive car repair bill can devastate a poor person financially. I had a 2K car repair bill right before the application cycle and had to sign up for a two week study where I lived in a controlled environment and ate specific food and took medication just to pay this off.

I had to take on $2,500 in credit card debt for the whole application cycle, and instead of enjoying my gap year I had to work full time to try to pay it off.

EDIT: I wanted to add that my undergrad sent 12 people (that i'm aware of) to med school this year, and half of those people have never had a job in their entire life.

 

[Luka75]

I hate how expensive the pre-med process is. By the time you have completed the MCAT, primary applications, secondary applications, and interviews, you will have shelled out thousands of dollars just for the possibility of getting into med school.

just to pay 200 thousand more.

 

[Lucca]

I think financially, it still works out in favor of the docs. ~7-10 year delay and 180k debt, followed by physician salary for 30+ years, still comes out better in the long run.

Accounting for upward trajectories in other white collar jobs? I'm not convinced. In terms of $$/Effort input required, I think just about every other white collar profession can give docs a run for their money, literally

 

[efle]

Accounting for upward trajectories in other white collar jobs? I'm not convinced. In terms of $$/Effort input required, I think just about every other white collar profession can give docs a run for their money, literally

Oh if we're going to start talking about effort levels then I withdraw my objection.

Just for the $ though, taking a glance at BLS and AAMC stats:

Broad Physicians category:

• 210k/yr, say 180k debt, and say 35 years working

Best-paid broad category of engineers (electrical):

• 101k/yr, say no debt and say 45 years working

Software devs/programming:

• 100k/yr, ditto above

I'd love to see some math that makes these two come out close to each other at the end, keeping in mind that these number are an overall average/mid career, not entry. If you start picking extreme highs from one (lets say just petro engi) and extreme lows from another (say family med in a major competitive city) then they can start coming out even. But for a more fair comparison, if you start comparing the best paid engineers in petro to the better paid specialized docs, then the average specialized joe starts to really come out ahead.

 

[altblue]

Also the fee assistance program is structured in such a way that certain people can't qualify for it even though they might need it.

And it's a goddamn pain to apply for. Wow. Could see it deterring people from applying. They ask for more financial info than my undergrad did

 

[Lucca]

Oh if we're going to start talking about effort levels then I withdraw my objection.

Just for the $ though, taking a glance at BLS and AAMC stats:

Broad Physicians category:

• 210k/yr, say 180k debt, and say 35 years working

Best-paid broad category of engineers (electrical):

• 101k/yr, say no debt and say 45 years working

Software devs/programming:

• 100k/yr, ditto above

I'd love to see some math that makes these two come out close to each other at the end, keeping in mind that these number are an overall average/mid career, not entry. If you start picking extreme highs from one (lets say just petro engi) and extreme lows from another (say family med in a major competitive city) then they can start coming out even. But for a more fair comparison, if you start comparing the best paid engineers in petro to the better paid specialized docs, then the average specialized joe starts to really come out ahead.

I don't disagree with you in terms of pure money made. Im saying there are easier ways to live an upper class lifestyle than becoming a physician, so I don't really understand people who choose this route just for the money.

 

[efle]

I don't disagree with you in terms of pure money made. Im saying there are easier ways to live an upper class lifestyle than becoming a physician, so I don't really understand people who choose this route just for the money.

What I really don't understand are people that sign up for even longer training in order to work absurd hours for academic pay levels

 

[Lucca]

What I really don't understand are people that sign up for even longer training in order to work absurd hours for academic pay levels

TBH I don't get it either

 

[GlioblastomaM]

This was already mentioned, but I actually enjoy how you're able to distinguish yourself with the quantifiable hard work and relative lack of nepotism exhibited. Sure, networking with professors and physicians for letters of recommendation or shadowing is partially about who you know. However, the most emphasis is placed on how hard you've worked academically, with varying degrees on clinical/research experience. I'd rather be neurotic getting 4.0's, studying more than anyone I know, and living in a hospital than repeatedly going to networking events and meeting with people I don't really like to "get ahead"—it's a nice change.

Albeit, I don't enjoy to what ends some of these people I'm competing with go to to compensate for their lack of genuine intelligence/hard work. Read the damn book, do the problem-sets, stop trying to sabotage or use me.

 

[coffeeandcodeine]

And it's a goddamn pain to apply for. Wow. Could see it deterring people from applying. They ask for more financial info than my undergrad did

Really? Have they changed the process? I think it only took me 30min to fill out and they got back to me the same day....it would be a shame if they made it more difficult for people to get that assistance, it's a tremendous help to applicants without money.

 

[altblue]

Really? Have they changed the process? I think it only took me 30min to fill out and they got back to me the same day....it would be a shame if they made it more difficult for people to get that assistance, it's a tremendous help to applicants without money.

It might just be me. Both of my parents are separated, retired, and have all kinds of supplemental income lol, which leads to a lot of specifications lol. There's a separate form for everything, and on top of that my mom's not too good with computers.

 

[CCmetal94]

What I really don't understand are people that sign up for even longer training in order to work absurd hours for academic pay levels

I'd wager a lot of these people are from higher income backgrounds with little-to-no debt from medical school (not all of course, but many i suspect). Even if I wanted to obtain a fellowship I don't see how it could be feasible financially with my debt ill have (350+).

 

[efle]

I'd wager a lot of these people are from higher income backgrounds with little-to-no debt from medical school (not all of course, but many i suspect). Even if I wanted to obtain a fellowship I don't see how it could be feasible financially with my debt ill have (350+).

I was poking fun at MSTP people actually, since Lucca is headed that way, and they all get to graduate debt free.

But yeah, if you're gonna have 350k+ I imagine you're gonna be looking for high pay or maybe debt forgiveness, not a long time training up to work in academics

 

[AntsInMyEyes_Johnson]

I don't disagree with you in terms of pure money made. Im saying there are easier ways to live an upper class lifestyle than becoming a physician, so I don't really understand people who choose this route just for the money.

Why do people still see the debt accumulated over the course of becoming a physician as a bad thing? Change your mindset! The debt is actually an investment, along with the time you invest, and you're playing the long game. Work hard enough and you'll reap some fantastic rewards. Not to mention the fact that you're pretty much guaranteed a 200k+ salary for the rest of your career. Other professions are constantly at odds with pay cuts, layoffs, and a whole slew of other potential issues on the horizon. True, doctors have to deal with malpractice suits, but at the end of the day, if you're well-versed in handling your personal finances, you can end up very well off as a physician. In short, consider it a lucrative investment that plays the long game and substantially minimizes risk. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[sullen-burger]

Why do people still see the debt accumulated over the course of becoming a physician as a bad thing? Change your mindset! The debt is actually an investment, along with the time you invest, and you're playing the long game. Work hard enough and you'll reap some fantastic rewards. Not to mention the fact that you're pretty much guaranteed a 200k+ salary for the rest of your career. Other professions are constantly at odds with pay cuts, layoffs, and a whole slew of other potential issues on the horizon. True, doctors have to deal with malpractice suits, but at the end of the day, if you're well-versed in handling your personal finances, you can end up very well off as a physician. In short, consider it a lucrative investment that plays the long game and substantially minimizes risk. At least, that's how I see it.

Doctors are notoriously poor at managing their money:

God complex; can't do anything wrong ego; excel in what they do so they think that intellectual smarts translate into fiscal smarts; buy and spend rather than save and invest; and finally rack up debt to drive the newest car only to find themselves short when they retire and their lifestyle doesn't comply with their income anymore.

Lots of poor docs out there. I should start a charity foundation. Call it. Bucks for docs. They need our help. Won't you help me? I take Visa and MasterCard.

 

[snarkie]

Tricky thing is the game continues in med school lol, even more tests, more politics and more important to be "above average" for everything you do

 

[freak7]

Doctors are notoriously poor at managing their money:

God complex; can't do anything wrong ego; excel in what they do so they think that intellectual smarts translate into fiscal smarts; buy and spend rather than save and invest; and finally rack up debt to drive the newest car only to find themselves short when they retire and their lifestyle doesn't comply with their income anymore.

Lots of poor docs out there. I should start a charity foundation. Call it. Bucks for docs. They need our help. Won't you help me? I take Visa and MasterCard.

If there's one good thing to come out of me growing up poor it's that I'm extremely financially savvy. I'm way too scared of going back to how things were.

 

[MCATISEZ]

Are you calling volunteering and community service BS? Who cares what they did and didn't do 20 years ago.

These activities are not just box checking for most people. They are genuine ways of learning about the field, gaining broad experience working with people, self sacrificing, and showing that you are able to handle multiple things at the same time as a heavy course load (which will reflect on your ability to succeed in med school when you are being pulled in every which way).




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Everything you said I agree with except the part about "These activities are not just box checking for most people." I certainly do not look at it like "a box to check". Perhaps most of SDN do not either. But... a lot of people do... and unfortunately, it works for a lot of people.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Really? Have they changed the process? I think it only took me 30min to fill out and they got back to me the same day....it would be a shame if they made it more difficult for people to get that assistance, it's a tremendous help to applicants without money.

I'm 33 and married. My wife works and then also makes money on the side. Yet I still need to include my parents' info. They are divorced and remarried. Not to get too specific, but their finances are not simple. I do not rely on them for anything financially, nor could they afford to pay for med school stuff. Yet I still need to include all this info just to find out that I don't qualify because my parents, who aren't able to help me financially, make slightly too much money.

 

[mwsapphire]

I'm 33 and married. My wife works and then also makes money on the side. Yet I still need to include my parents' info. They are divorced and remarried. Not to get too specific, but their finances are not simple. I do not rely on them for anything financially, nor could they afford to pay for med school stuff. Yet I still need to include all this info just to find out that I don't qualify because my parents, who aren't able to help me financially, make slightly too much money.

Wow.
That is awful.
Can't you make it clear you don't rely on them for money? Aren't you a non-dependant?

 

[freak7]

Wow.
That is awful.
Can't you make it clear you don't rely on them for money? Aren't you a non-dependant?

Wouldn't matter since that's not how aid is determined.

 

[JimmyJimJim]

This was already mentioned, but I actually enjoy how you're able to distinguish yourself with the quantifiable hard work and relative lack of nepotism exhibited. Sure, networking with professors and physicians for letters of recommendation or shadowing is partially about who you know. However, the most emphasis is placed on how hard you've worked academically, with varying degrees on clinical/research experience. I'd rather be neurotic getting 4.0's, studying more than anyone I know, and living in a hospital than repeatedly going to networking events and meeting with people I don't really like to "get ahead"—it's a nice change.

Albeit, I don't enjoy to what ends some of these people I'm competing with go to to compensate for their lack of genuine intelligence/hard work. Read the damn book, do the problem-sets, stop trying to sabotage or use me.

I agree that the hard work is more gratifying than any schmoozing, but I hope that you don't automatically assume that those unable to keep up with your GPA are slackers. I'm engineering and pre-med at a top 10, and I barely keep my head above water while volunteering and working on other projects. I know why I'm doing this and I wouldn't have it any other way, but my pre-med peers who look down their noses at my struggling make the tough slog even tougher. Also, seeing this as a competition may work for you, but I've found helping others to be much more gratifying in the long-run.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Wow.
That is awful.
Can't you make it clear you don't rely on them for money? Aren't you a non-dependant?

Unless I'm mistaken, it doesn't matter. If your parents are alive, you have to include their info.

 

[coffeeandcodeine]

I'm 33 and married. My wife works and then also makes money on the side. Yet I still need to include my parents' info. They are divorced and remarried. Not to get too specific, but their finances are not simple. I do not rely on them for anything financially, nor could they afford to pay for med school stuff. Yet I still need to include all this info just to find out that I don't qualify because my parents, who aren't able to help me financially, make slightly too much money.

Ugh, that sucks, I'm sorry. The financial aid system in general does a pretty poor job of helping people who are non-trads or unable to receive support from their parents.

 

[CAFFEINE!]

Ugh, that sucks, I'm sorry. The financial aid system in general does a pretty poor job of helping people who are non-trads or unable to receive support from their parents.

SERIOUSLY. I make almost nothing at my job, but still don't qualify for FAP because of my parents' income (but they are unable to help me financially). I am scared to death of applying to medical schools next year because of how much it will all cost.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

SERIOUSLY. I make almost nothing at my job, but still don't qualify for FAP because of my parents' income (but they are unable to help me financially). I am scared to death of applying to medical schools next year because of how much it will all cost.

Word. It really is a stupid system.

 

[McRibs]

The sheer amount of time this process consumes is mind-boggling.

Add a 40-hour work week into the mix and it becomes Herculean.

How you non-trads succeed with a family in the equation is flat-out insane.

 

[freak7]

The sheer amount of time this process consumes is mind-boggling.

Add a 40-hour work week into the mix and it becomes Herculean.

How you non-trads succeed with a family in the equation is flat-out insane.

And I had to move twice during the application process!

 

[JimmyJimJim]

I'm 33 and married. My wife works and then also makes money on the side. Yet I still need to include my parents' info. They are divorced and remarried. Not to get too specific, but their finances are not simple. I do not rely on them for anything financially, nor could they afford to pay for med school stuff. Yet I still need to include all this info just to find out that I don't qualify because my parents, who aren't able to help me financially, make slightly too much money.

What a mess, but great going and good luck sticking it out. What are they going to do with your case? My parents are both retired and not supporting me either, it would be strange to request financial aid citing their fixed income. There must be procedures in place for those of us on the non-trad path.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

What a mess, but great going and good luck sticking it out. What are they going to do with your case? My parents are both retired and not supporting me either, it would be strange to request financial aid citing their fixed income. There must be procedures in place for those of us on the non-trad path.

As far as I know, they don't care if you're non-trad (or at least don't take it into account). I'm not even bothering applying for it.