What do you think of the MD/JD Programs?

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LadyMD2b

LadyMD2b

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I've read many articles stating that becoming a physician/attorney could open up many doors for becoming a successful Medical Malpractice Attorney. :confused: I'm trying to figure out why someone would need to earn a MD to do this?? There are many medical malpractice attorneys that don't have MDs. So....

Would receiving a MD and a JD be beneficial in ANY way? Or is it just a waste of time? :shrug:
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Also, are there any dual programs that offer a MD/JD degree? or would you have to do one after the other?
 
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Maygyver said:
Also, are there any dual programs that offer a MD/JD degree? or would you have to do one after the other?
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Yes. (These are the "MD/JD programs" in the topic title.)

It's not a single MD/JD degree, to be more precise.

The only advantage is that if for some very strange reason you can't do what you want to do without both degrees, you could knock a year off the total length of schooling.
 
my question is... why on earth would you want to get an MD on the way to becoming a malpractice attorney? it's totally possible to do that, and do it well, without wasting the time and money it takes to go to med school.
 
I think it could be helpful for medical-legal consulting, becoming a special witness in malpractice/ethics cases, and academia... there are a few MD/JDs who write in bioethics and public policy journals.
 
I don't really see why you would need a JD to write public policy journals. There are plenty of undergrad majors that will cover that. It seems like a bit much to me. Can anyone think of anymore reasons for a MD and JD?
 
I think it would be cool to me a JD/MD. That way if someone tries to sue you for malpractice, you can save money by defending yourself and maybe even counter-sue. :)
 
LadyMD2b said:
I don't really see why you would need a JD to write public policy journals. There are plenty of undergrad majors that will cover that. It seems like a bit much to me. Can anyone think of anymore reasons for a MD and JD?
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Well, if you use this kind of logic, can you really justify a MD/PhD? You can certainly do research with just an MD.

Getting a good job as a lawyer is difficult. There are tons of lawyers out there and not that many jobs. Having an MD/JD would probably help get your foot into the door of a good malpratice firm.
 
xanthomondo said:
Getting a good job as a lawyer is difficult. There are tons of lawyers out there and not that many jobs. Having an MD/JD would probably help get your foot into the door of a good malpratice firm.
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I would hope it would help get the rest of your body in the door too.
 
LadyMD2b said:
I've read many articles stating that becoming a physician/attorney could open up many doors for becoming a successful Medical Malpractice Attorney. :confused: I'm trying to figure out why someone would need to earn a MD to do this?? There are many medical malpractice attorneys that don't have MDs. So....

Would receiving a MD and a JD be beneficial in ANY way? Or is it just a waste of time? :shrug:
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Okay, technically yes there would be a benefit. But the benefit is so small that it does not warrant adding an addition 3 years of schooling. Will an MD make you more marketable to some firms as a malpractice attorney? Yes. But is it a waste of time? Yes.

Work hard in undergrad to get a GPA, work even harder on the LSAT and score well and then go to a top 20 law school. Once there, work hard during the first year to make law review. During the summer and the last two years of law school clerk at a firm that handles medical malpractice or tort law or whatever it is you ware wanting to practice. Graduate and get a job working at that firm starting at 145,000 dollars. All of this takes 3 years, and you will not be any worse off without the MD.

Obviously there is a spectrum, but suffice it to say your best bet is to work hard in the three years of law school.
 
DrJD said:
Okay, technically yes there would be a benefit. But the benefit is so small that it does not warrant adding an addition 3 years of schooling. Will an MD make you more marketable to some firms as a malpractice attorney? Yes. But is it a waste of time? Yes.

Work hard in undergrad to get a GPA, work even harder on the LSAT and score well and then go to a top 20 law school. Once there, work hard during the first year to make law review. During the summer and the last two years of law school clerk at a firm that handles medical malpractice or tort law or whatever it is you ware wanting to practice. Graduate and get a job working at that firm starting at 145,000 dollars. All of this takes 3 years, and you will not be any worse off without the MD.

Obviously there is a spectrum, but suffice it to say your best bet is to work hard in the three years of law school.
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Your life plan is a little oversimplified. Do you know anyone who is in law school? Working hard won't necessarily get you As. Law school is one huge dog and pony show.
 
LadyMD2b said:
I've read many articles stating that becoming a physician/attorney could open up many doors for becoming a successful Medical Malpractice Attorney. :confused: I'm trying to figure out why someone would need to earn a MD to do this?? There are many medical malpractice attorneys that don't have MDs. So....

Would receiving a MD and a JD be beneficial in ANY way? Or is it just a waste of time? :shrug:
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Because if you get a MD/JD then you are only one degree away from having the "Big Three" (i.e. MD, JD, PhD).
 
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xanthomondo said:
Your life plan is a little oversimplified. Do you know anyone who is in law school? Working hard won't necessarily get you As. Law school is one huge dog and pony show.
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I've been a law clerk and been in law school myself :) Have you?

In all seriousness, it was meant to be oversimplified. (Like when I said work hard and get law review at a T20 law school... obviously not an easy thing to do.) It was one end of the spectrum... Meant to get the point across that one can have a very successful tort law practice without earning a MD/JD joint degree.
 
If it is anything similar to a patent attourny, the best ones I know arn't nessesarily PhD/JD's, but they are JD's with a passion for science (who also know more than just "the basics", but arn't nessesarily trained beyond a ugrad level).

Think of it this way, they are hiring JD's FOR their JD, not for their science experience. They have expert witnesses who are MD's/PhD's, etc. who deal with the science part. The JD just needs to understand it and integrate it into an overall strategy.

With that said, most IP law offices have atleast one JD/PhD for special cases where they really do need to know both.
 
I guess it can be helpful if you want to work as an attorney, but what's its benefit if you want to work as a physician? :confused:
 
LadyMD2b said:
I guess it can be helpful if you want to work as an attorney, but what's its benefit if you want to work as a physician? :confused:
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when you make a mistake, you could deal with the patient in the least legally incriminating way
 
savant said:
Because if you get a MD/JD then you are only one degree away from having the "Big Three" (i.e. MD, JD, PhD).
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Sounded crazy to me, but a google search reveals that there are actually a number of people with the MD,JD,PhD combo. If that's not overkill, I don't know what is :scared:
 
Westernhealer said:
I think it would be cool to me a JD/MD. That way if someone tries to sue you for malpractice, you can save money by defending yourself and maybe even counter-sue. :)
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All kidding aside, you would never, ever want to defend yourself in a med mal suit, even if you're also an attorney. Your insurance carrier would provide the attorney, though you will probably pay for defense costs up to the amount of your deductible.
 
xanthomondo said:
Well, if you use this kind of logic, can you really justify a MD/PhD? You can certainly do research with just an MD.

Getting a good job as a lawyer is difficult. There are tons of lawyers out there and not that many jobs. Having an MD/JD would probably help get your foot into the door of a good malpratice firm.
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MD would probably be overkill. RN or PA with JD are nice combinations.
 
atomi said:
I think they're weird.
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Perhaps they're crazy -- crazy like a Fox!

Or maybe they're just trying to answer the age old question posed to all good Jews: "Are you a doctor, a lawyer, or a great disappointment to your family?"

They could answer: "All of the above!!!"

My parent's nearly defecated adobe (read: "**** a brick") when I told them I was going back to school, but they've almost come around after three years.

Having said all that, I'd agree it might -- only might! -- make sense to do the degrees in series, separated by many years of work and experience and having a life. Doing both in parallel would defeat the purpose of practicing one profession while having specialized experience from the other.
 
Waste for all but a small minority.

Want to med-malpractice? Get a JD. A JD from a solid school and three years experience does a lot more than an MD/JD.

Want to be an expert witness? Go to medical school. The JD who spends all his time in court is going to know better what to ask and how to run the legal side of things than someone splitting their time between the two. Not to mention the two years of clinical experience takes you a lot further down the road of "why does anyone give a damn what your opinion is" than an extra degree does.

Get an MD/JD if you have a deep-rooted desire to be involved in both and wouldn't be happy if you couldn't wear both hats now and then.

The difference between a MD/PhD program and a MD/JD program is that in an MD/PhD program you are actually getting experience. You're researching, publishing, etc. It's protected time to develop a part of your career. The JD is just extra coursework and maybe an internship. You come out of a PhD program with a track record. You come out of a JD program ready to prove yourself...
 
At some point in the past (before I forgot the Federal Rules of Evidence) I looked into this too. This pretty much sums up the major points. 98% of lawyers don't need the MD and 98% of docs don't need the JD. If you find yourself in the minority where the dual degree might actually help, then you can go back and get it later, after your initial salvo of education.
 
TexasPhysician said:
no
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Agreed. But the JD/MD one is probably the worst, because there aren't all that many opportunities to use both these degrees. The two areas where it could help are public policy, and teaching -- both of which are lower pay than the typical clinician or practitioner. It does not help for doing medmal -- 99.999% of all medmal lawyers do fine with just a JD.
 
Westernhealer said:
I think it would be cool to me a JD/MD. That way if someone tries to sue you for malpractice, you can save money by defending yourself and maybe even counter-sue. :)
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Except it's never a good idea to be your own legal representation! :eek:
 
Damn, that is way too much school for me.
 
herbb said:
wow, check out this guy

J.D. Harvard University
M.D. Columbia University
Ph.D. University of Chicago [public policy]
B.S. Massachusetts Institute of Technology [chemistry]

http://www.cwsl.edu/main/default.asp?nav=faculty.asp&body=liang/home.asp
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He didn't do the MD/JD thing -- it appears he went to two different places for them. So obviously a career changer type (from doctor to law professor). He is apparently somewhat combining the two in teaching health law, but as mentioned above (especially if you factor in the years in school), he is likely earning far less than he'd have if he stayed a doctor all those years. In retrospect, the dude might have had an easier career path if he just went to law school and skipped the MD thing. And that's the trouble with the combined degree -- there rarely are any targets that require both degrees.
 
Law2Doc said:
He didn't do the MD/JD thing -- it appears he went to two different places for them. So obviously a career changer type (from doctor to law professor). He is apparently somewhat combining the two in teaching health law, but as mentioned above (especially if you factor in the years in school), he is likely earning far less than he'd have if he stayed a doctor all those years. In retrospect, the dude might have had an easier career path if he just went to law school and skipped the MD thing. And that's the trouble with the combined degree -- there rarely are any targets that require both degrees.
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Maybe he is writing a book to compare the different types of educations and degrees lol.
 
herbb said:
wow, check out this guy

J.D. Harvard University
M.D. Columbia University
Ph.D. University of Chicago [public policy]
B.S. Massachusetts Institute of Technology [chemistry]

http://www.cwsl.edu/main/default.asp?nav=faculty.asp&body=liang/home.asp
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There was an MD/PhD that graduated 2 years ago from my school that did a JD on the side while he was doing his PhD. He ended up going on to a residency. Not sure what he wants to do with the JD part.

In reference to the OP's question. I considered this kind of program when I first applied to medical school. I found this link, which I thought was quite helpful: http://www.pshrink.com/mdjd.html

The guy makes a good point, which is basically that it's a waste of time.
 
herbb said:
wow, check out this guy

J.D. Harvard University
M.D. Columbia University
Ph.D. University of Chicago [public policy]
B.S. Massachusetts Institute of Technology [chemistry]

http://www.cwsl.edu/main/default.asp?nav=faculty.asp&body=liang/home.asp
Click to expand...

That's impressive (understatement), but the first thing that pops in my head whenever I see a resume like that is that he's probably doing it all to satisfy his own intellectual curiosity... and not in the good way.

He's obviously very smart, but isn't it actually very selfish to not use what he knows into practice? In fact, isn't he just taking up the educational resources for a scientist, doctor, and lawyer all in one? Aren't there actually 2 less working professionals walking the world because of him? 2 less working professionals who will be in the classroom and not in "the field" for at least 8 less years of his lifetime?

To be the best that you can be is one thing, but if you think about it... that's all you're doing. It's actually really selfish.


edit: Then again, if he isn't going to analyze and author works that describe the interface between law, medicine, and incentive structures... who is? And what do I know?
 
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thesauce said:
...
In reference to the OP's question. I considered this kind of program when I first applied to medical school. I found this link, which I thought was quite helpful: http://www.pshrink.com/mdjd.html

The guy makes a good point, which is basically that it's a waste of time.
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Yeah, there are actually several very similar sites to this out there. All come to the same conclusion -- there isn't really a good argument for doing a combined MD/JD.
 
Law2Doc said:
Yeah, there are actually several very similar sites to this out there. All come to the same conclusion -- there isn't really a good argument for doing a combined MD/JD.
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Yup...

There is a very, very, very small niche for the MD/JD...
 
check out this guy...http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~jadvar/
B.S. Chemical Engineering Iowa State University
M.S. Biomedical Engineering,, University of Wisconsin
M.S.E. Computer, Information, and Control Engineering, University of Michigan
Ph.D. Bioengineering, University of Michigan
M.D. University of Chicago
M.P.H. Harvard University
M.B.A. Business Administration, University of Southern California

.......................:eek:
 
coldfeet09 said:
translation = 4 master's degree, a PhD, and a M.D. Went to school from 1982 to 1993. Did the residency and fellowship thing from 1993-1999. Then he went back to school again from 2005-2007 (must be online).

If he wants to now get a JD or anything else, more power to him.
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I would hope an Law Adcom wouldn't let him in based on the fact that he can't decide what he wants to do.... Why train a lawyer if he wont use his degree?
 
tiedyeddog said:
I would hope an Law Adcom wouldn't let him in based on the fact that he can't decide what he wants to do.... Why train a lawyer if he wont use his degree?
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Don't underestimate the desire of a Law School to increase their rank by upping their average GPA and LSAT score...
 
This dude advertises on TV constantly where I'm from. He is obviously regarded as a complete ass-clown in the local medical community as he makes his living extorting money from those who have dedicate their life to helping others.

http://www.themdjd.com/
 
coldfeet09 said:
Edit: Looks like he is a consultant to the TV show House.
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And CSI.

So, if I want to be a consultant for a show like House, I need an MS, MSE, MPH, MBA, MD and PhD. Got it! Now I have some direction in life.
 
tiedyeddog said:
I would hope an Law Adcom wouldn't let him in based on the fact that he can't decide what he wants to do.... Why train a lawyer if he wont use his degree?
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this is not as big of a concern for law school admissions ppl as it is for med school admissions ppl. there are MANY people with law degrees who are not "using" them in the traditional sense, yet still have successful/meaningful careers in which their legal training is an asset. a (good) law school trains one to think like a lawyer. unlike in medical school, you don't really learn much in law school that is of practical use (again, at a top tier school, anyway).

also, interviewing is not part of the law school admissions process, so there is little or no inquiry into to what one intends to do with the degree
 
yea my dad has a md, phd, and an exec mba in some pharma crap


it doesn't help in life much.
 
DrJD said:
Don't underestimate the desire of a Law School to increase their rank by upping their average GPA and LSAT score...
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I don't think its that as much as biz and law schools would love for someone to have a guaranteed job after school. If you have an MD, you will be making dough, and that's the most important stat for those schools (not to mention endowments).
 
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