What do you think of this? Needing a PHD for NP?

[oldpro]

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Departments/eLearning/Default.aspx?article=MakeRoomDrNurse&GT1=27001

I'm a 4th year MS and an RN for 20 years I really think this is nursing going too far once again!

To establish a national standard for doctors of nursing practice, the non-profit Council for the Advancement of Comprehensive Care announced in April 2008 that the National Board of Medical Examiners has agreed to develop a voluntary DNP certification exam based on the same test physicians take to qualify for a medical license.
The board will begin administering the exam this fall. By 2015, the American Association of Colleges of Nursing aims to make the doctoral degree the standard for all new advanced practice nurses, including nurse practitioners.

A PHD now to be a NP! Whats next by the Nurses?

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[wisconsindoctor]

I'm a 4th year MS and an RN for 20 years I really think this is nursing going too far once again!



A PHD now to be a NP! Whats next by the Nurses?

One thing that this does is extend the process of reaching the top level of education in ones profession.

 

[deleted6669]

One thing that this does is extend the process of reaching the top level of education in ones profession.

but at that point why not just go all the way and get the md/do. I understand for the folks who are already invested to the point of being np's with an ms but for a newbie right out of college 4 yrs to md or 4 yrs to dnp it's a no brainer.....

 

[Taurus]

A PHD now to be a NP! Whats next by the Nurses?

No PhD. That would be too much work.

They want the fastest route to practice medicine independently. The DNP, which can be done part-time and online, is the solution.

What's next? The nurses will try to enter the specialties because that's where the money and lifestyle are at. Knowing their "least amount of work possible" mantra, they probably will claim that after 2 weekend classes they are as good as a derm, cards, or GI.

That's what the CRNA's tried to do with pain medicine which is a fellowship until a Louisiana court stopped them.

 

[Chronic Student]

Degree creep is rampant!

I attended a graduation recently for a university health science center and 3/4 were doctorates. This was a combined graduation for med skool, nursing, PT, OT, etc.

The med students I can understand. However, there were docotorates for PT, speech therapy, pharmacy, audiology and many others that I can't remember at the moment. Two notable exceptions were PAs and MTs.

I know that PAs are catching a lot of hell for the new doctorate at Baylor, but that serves a specific purpose. We (PAs) have been resisting degree creep. I can see some limited utility for it as a vehicle for promotion in the military and for teaching. However, for the rank and file mid-level (either NP or PA) I really thing it serves no useful purpose and in fact is counter-productive.

Just my opinion.

 

[wisconsindoctor]

Degree creep is rampant!

I attended a graduation recently for a university health science center and 3/4 were doctorates. This was a combined graduation for med skool, nursing, PT, OT, etc.

The med students I can understand. However, there were docotorates for PT, speech therapy, pharmacy, audiology and many others that I can't remember at the moment. Two notable exceptions were PAs and MTs.

I know that PAs are catching a lot of hell for the new doctorate at Baylor, but that serves a specific purpose. We (PAs) have been resisting degree creep. I can see some limited utility for it as a vehicle for promotion in the military and for teaching. However, for the rank and file mid-level (either NP or PA) I really thing it serves no useful purpose and in fact is counter-productive.

Just my opinion.

I've seen this myself as well. When you research the education needed for certain fields in allied healthcare, you will see that some of the careers now require a Ph.D. In time you will see many areas of Ph.D. in every possible allied healthcare field. I've seen requirements for Certified Medical Assistant job postings. The field I want to go into is looking at making a Ph.D. an option as well. I don't want the Ph.D. I want the masters degree so I can do clinical work. I don't want to be a program director or run a research group. I would rather do clinical work and work with a research team.

You can even get an B.S. degree in RT now. Next you will see a Ph.D. in RT. In fact some schools already offer a masters degree in RT. Here is proof if you don't believe me: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/25929.php and http://www.spcs.neu.edu/ms_respther/

Healthcare is not alone though when it comes to all of this outrageous degree (AKA ego trips) crap that is going on.

If you ask me, university and college administrators are responsbile for this. They are creating degree tracks that are not needed. Schools are making loads of money off these programs.

 

[Farmer Jane]

Let's clarify the two:

Ph.D. in nursing has been around for a long time, and is an established, scholarly, research-based degree. The requirements for the Ph.D. have not changed, and the programs are nothing new.

The degree creep is the DNP--totally different animal. A DNP (not the Ph.D.) will be the new requirement for NP.

I respect the Ph.D. greatly. I am not impressed with the DNP.

 

[FutureDMD1234]

I'm sorry for intruding into this part of the forum. I need to state my opinion. I knew this will never work. The NPs told the politicians that we need them to provide healthcare at lower costs. We now know that it is complete bs. They are now demanding a doctorate degree to enter this profession. That mean more loans and higher salary. What does that tell you? The cost will not go down.​

 

[brightness]

Let's clarify the two:

Ph.D. in nursing has been around for a long time, and is an established, scholarly, research-based degree. The requirements for the Ph.D. have not changed, and the programs are nothing new.

The degree creep is the DNP--totally different animal. A DNP (not the Ph.D.) will be the new requirement for NP.

I respect the Ph.D. greatly. I am not impressed with the DNP.

Bingo. I'm tired of hearing the two mixed up, because its such a different animal entirely.

I support nursing and nurses, but I see no need for a DNP. IF someone chooses to do it, I see it as an opportunity to bring more nurses into research and to gain more clinical hours. It certainly won't make nurses into doctors.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Let's clarify the two:

Ph.D. in nursing has been around for a long time, and is an established, scholarly, research-based degree. The requirements for the Ph.D. have not changed, and the programs are nothing new.

The degree creep is the DNP--totally different animal. A DNP (not the Ph.D.) will be the new requirement for NP.

I respect the Ph.D. greatly. I am not impressed with the DNP.

It is definitely degree creep. The Ph.D. is still for teaching and research, which is really important for nursing....so they can continue scholarly work and contribute to the nursing field.

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As for the 'online' avenues (mentioned above).....*shutter*, not a good road to go down. Unfortunately many want to make it about 'easy access' and less about quality training. There is a reason why training takes time....and the degredation of training, combined with the expanding scope of practice (not just in nursing, but in a number of areas of healthcare/mental health) is very worrisome.

 

[oldpro]

Let's clarify the two:

Ph.D. in nursing has been around for a long time, and is an established, scholarly, research-based degree. The requirements for the Ph.D. have not changed, and the programs are nothing new.

The degree creep is the DNP--totally different animal. A DNP (not the Ph.D.) will be the new requirement for NP.

I respect the Ph.D. greatly. I am not impressed with the DNP.

I 1000000% agree, this is an attempt for nurses to gain "More Autonomy" from Doctors, they have lost the reason they exist, it was not to be 100% Autonomous. They have lost their way.

 

[fab4fan]

It is definitely degree creep. The Ph.D. is still for teaching and research, which is really important for nursing....so they can continue scholarly work and contribute to the nursing field.

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As for the 'online' avenues (mentioned above).....*shutter*, not a good road to go down. Unfortunately many want to make it about 'easy access' and less about quality training. There is a reason why training takes time....and the degredation of training, combined with the expanding scope of practice (not just in nursing, but in a number of areas of healthcare/mental health) is very worrisome.

Ahem. There's a significant difference between "shutter" and "shudder," something this mere online student has managed to grasp.

Online programs are not created equally. Some are good, some are not so good, just like your typical program. You'd be surprised at some of the universities offering online options. Just because it's not traditional doesn't mean it's lacking in quality.

Now, if you have data to back up what you have to say, then please, share.

 

[Taurus]

Online programs are not created equally. Some are good, some are not so good, just like your typical program. You'd be surprised at some of the universities offering online options. Just because it's not traditional doesn't mean it's lacking in quality.

If you want to take a history class, go ahead and take it online.

But you don't learn to do clinical medicine online. Period.

 

[fab4fan]

If you want to take a history class, go ahead and take it online.

But you don't learn to do clinical medicine online. Period.

I'm not going to medical school. FWIW, the clinical portion is not available online, so yes, I will have to show up for that.

Since we're being all open and honest here, what year of medical school are you in? Shouldn't you be graduating soon? I just want to know when you're going to be out there making life miserable for us nurses. I need to prepare myself.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Ahem. There's a significant difference between "shutter" and "shudder," something this mere online student has managed to grasp.

I think my spelling ability peaked in middle school.

Now, if you have data to back up what you have to say, then please, share.

I'll poke around and see what I can find.

 

[dfk]

I'm not going to medical school. FWIW, the clinical portion is not available online, so yes, I will have to show up for that.

Since we're being all open and honest here, what year of medical school are you in? Shouldn't you be graduating soon? I just want to know when you're going to be out there making life miserable for us nurses. I need to prepare myself.

*high five*

 

[dfk]

I 1000000% agree, this is an attempt for nurses to gain "More Autonomy" from Doctors, they have lost the reason they exist, it was not to be 100% Autonomous. They have lost their way.

you mean their way back to the crimean war??
please..
sounds like the doctors want the nurses right back at their sides, oh heavenly handmaidens...
*puke*

 

[Taurus]

I just want to know when you're going to be out there making life miserable for us nurses. I need to prepare myself.

Actually, the RN's love me. I respect what they do and they respect what I do.

When and where I start residency, that's for me to know and for all the DNP's to fear. DNP's don't like me because I expose their ugly ulterior motive and post it for all to read. The highest compliment I can get from DNP's is making me their target. Tells me I'm doing something right.

 

[zenman]

Online programs are not created equally. Some are good, some are not so good, just like your typical program. You'd be surprised at some of the universities offering online options. Just because it's not traditional doesn't mean it's lacking in quality.

Now, if you have data to back up what you have to say, then please, share.

Correct fab and I wonder if those who keep spouting "online" and "part time" as a negative have the brains to complete medical school.

Some brink and mortar classes are great, some are not.

Some online classes are great, some are not.

A great online class beats a great brick and mortar class in efficiency, costs and aggravation. Suppose you had a migraine and had to be at your brick and mortar class. Sorry, you got to be there. Good luck concentrating. No problem with online class: do it anytime. With my online class I can view the video over and over; your professor will probably not repeat what he said once before. With online class, I don't have to sit and listen to a few students ask questions they should already know the answers to nor do I have to waste time driving to class and trying to park. Online is also great for us in the international community as we might have viewpoints from all over the world.

Part time? Let's see. If I have to do 80 hours a week I'm probably tired and don't remember half of the patients I see nor can I retain half of what I learn. Seeing patients 2-3 days a week I'm rested and can go home and pour over the journals on the conditions I learned that day and retain more more.

So, part time and online wins. Try to grasp it. I have many friends in education...you lose if you think differently.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Correct fab and I wonder if those who keep spouting "online" and "part time" as a negative have the brains to complete medical school.

Yes...it was actually my backup plan if I didn't go the clinical route and/or changed my mind about research early in my training.

Part time? Let's see. If I have to do 80 hours a week I'm probably tired and don't remember half of the patients I see nor can I retain half of what I learn. Seeing patients 2-3 days a week I'm rested and can go home and pour over the journals on the conditions I learned that day and retain more more.

So if you go half time you are willing to double the amount of time it takes to complete? Often times people want to cut down the hours spent reading/studying/working....yet still get out on time or close to that of someone who goes the traditional route, often citing that a person shouldn't be made to pull long hours to get an education.....often ignoring the fact it is that way for a reason, and not just to weed people out.

So, part time and online wins. Try to grasp it. I have many friends in education...you lose if you think differently.

As you said, not all programs are created equal. One of the reasons why online training is becoming more popular is it increases the # of students who can be accepted and targets students who aren't able to commit the time/resources to traditional study, though often at a much more expensive price. Add to that the lower overhead and fewer physical facilities being utilized, and you have a cash cow that takes the focus of the education from being about learning to being about making money. Training outcomes....who knows, but I do know markets get flooded....and I'm not sure if they have the same competencies. For something like History or English may not be a big deal, but anything in healthcare, mental health, etc.....a very different animal.

As for the DNP....I'm not sure if there is a true need for it. I'm glad people want to get additional training, but I'm not sure it isn't at least partly influenced by the title and/or degree creep.

 

[Taurus]

How coincidental. We're talking about online DNP's in another thread. Here are some great quotes. As you can see, not all online DNP's are created equally and that's dangerous. No matter what MD or DO school you look at, you can expect a consistent set of minimal competencies across all of them. Why? Because the curriculum is standardized. The LCME would never allow someone to graduate from medical school if they did everything online as some of these nurses. The DNP who graduates from a top-tier school has the same scope as the graduate who went to an online-only school. The patient doesn't know the difference until deficits in knowledge and skill are exposed. The DNP's do themselves no favors by setting the bar so low. It is the incompetent, autonomous DNP's who will be written about in the newspapers and who will force states to restrict their scope. Which happens to be exactly what I want.

Here's a bunch of Nurses talking about Online DNP

http://community.advanceweb.com/forums/thread/25727.aspx

Quote:
I am currently enrolled in a DrNp program at Robert Morris University in Pittsburgh. The program requires you to be on campus one week each semester. The rest of the course work is done online.

Quote:
I am currently enrolled in TCU's DNP program that is online. This is their first year. It is $875 an hour and does not require attendence. Hope that helps

Quote:
I am completing a DNP online program this May at UTHSC. It is a great program that has more than a couple of options to choose from. You do have to go to campus 4x a year for a few days to meet requirements (for presentations and the occasional lecture), but residencies and coursework is done from home.

Quote:
I am currently in a blended program. I take courses online, and then attend a 3 day seminar each trimester​

 

[NiteOwl]

There is a NP that I work with. She thinks the new thing with nurse practitioners is kind of crazy. Her and someone else was talking about it and they mentioned how its more of a doctorate level. She pretty much said "whats the point? If you have to go to school for that long why not go on for MD?" And she said if they had changed it as she was going in, she would have went ahead and did the MD route. And I agree.

 

[dfk]

you have to understand, and i'm sure you do, that not everyone wants to be MD or go that route. why is it so important to have every program standardized like medicine? in nursing, there are several different models of thought centered within nursing, so the education will be different. it may be somewhat off, but within in the MD v DO realm, aside from the core didactics, i believe the belief models are different (allopathic v osteopathic). it's even considered sub-par to be a DO in the MDs eyes IMO...

 

[Taurus]

why is it so important to have every program standardized like medicine?

Uh, because when a patient goes to a physician, he can expect a minimum set of competencies. Medical education has evolved the way to make sure that the physician is safe to perform medicine. Medicine has a very low tolerance to anything it deems unsafe, whether it is academic, character flaws, etc. Medical students, residents, and attendings are constantly kicked out of medicine for these reasons.

As DNP's become prevalent, you will see the same evolution in DNP curriculum that happened to medicine. Some unsafe autonomous DNP gets media attention. Lawmakers try to sound justifiably mad and promise changes. Laws will be passed. Nursing curriculum will have to be standardized so that things like online DNP's will be a relic of history. Recertification every 10 years. Etc.

Remember how 5 CRNA's lost their licenses in Nevada because they risked 50,000 people to hepatitis C? Lawmakers may give nurses a pass for now because they aren't the ultimate professionals in the medical hierarchy. The physicians are. But Mundinger et al are proposing that DNP's are equal to physicians. Therefore, DNP's will come under the same scrutiny and regulations as physicians.

DO's were welcomed as physicians once they adopted the medical education model used by MD's. The education between MD's and DO's are nearly identical with the exception that DO's do some massage stuff, ie, standardized core medical school curriculu + residency. Nurses seem to miss that concept. If DNP's want to be welcomed as equal to physicians, they will need to follow what the DO's did.

The public demands safety. Don't underestimate that. It takes just a few high profile cases. They will happen, as sure as Bush is an idiot. Our litigious legal system and high insurance premiums will influence the DNP curriculum more than protests by the AMA.

 

[fab4fan]

Actually, the RN's love me. I respect what they do and they respect what I do.

When and where I start residency, that's for me to know and for all the DNP's to fear. DNP's don't like me because I expose their ugly ulterior motive and post it for all to read. The highest compliment I can get from DNP's is making me their target. Tells me I'm doing something right.

Exactly as I expected. You who demand "sunshine" from all other professions are totally unwilling to be honest about where you are in your academic journey. That's very interesting.

 

[mig26x]

[/url]

Quote:
I am currently enrolled in a DrNp program at Robert Morris University in Pittsburgh. The program requires you to be on campus one week each semester. The rest of the course work is done online.

Quote:
I am currently enrolled in TCU's DNP program that is online. This is their first year. It is $875 an hour and does not require attendence. Hope that helps

Quote:
I am completing a DNP online program this May at UTHSC. It is a great program that has more than a couple of options to choose from. You do have to go to campus 4x a year for a few days to meet requirements (for presentations and the occasional lecture), but residencies and coursework is done from home.

Quote:
I am currently in a blended program. I take courses online, and then attend a 3 day seminar each trimester[/INDENT]

please tell me this is a joke!!! online courses!! one week per semester!! and they have the balls/cojones to call themselves equals to MD's in term of clinical experience!???

this DNP thing is a freaking joke!!! poor patients!!

 

[dfk]

Uh, because when a patient goes to a physician, he can expect a minimum set of competencies. Medical education has evolved the way to make sure that the physician is safe to perform medicine. Medicine has a very low tolerance to anything it deems unsafe, whether it is academic, character flaws, etc. Medical students, residents, and attendings are constantly kicked out of medicine for these reasons.

As DNP's become prevalent, you will see the same evolution in DNP curriculum that happened to medicine. Some unsafe autonomous DNP gets media attention. Lawmakers try to sound justifiably mad and promise changes. Laws will be passed. Nursing curriculum will have to be standardized so that things like online DNP's will be a relic of history. Recertification every 10 years. Etc.

Remember how 5 CRNA's lost their licenses in Nevada because they risked 50,000 people to hepatitis C? Lawmakers may give nurses a pass for now because they aren't the ultimate professionals in the medical hierarchy. The physicians are. But Mundinger et al are proposing that DNP's are equal to physicians. Therefore, DNP's will come under the same scrutiny and regulations as physicians.

DO's were welcomed as physicians once they adopted the medical education model used by MD's. The education between MD's and DO's are nearly identical with the exception that DO's do some massage stuff, ie, standardized core medical school curriculu + residency. Nurses seem to miss that concept. If DNP's want to be welcomed as equal to physicians, they will need to follow what the DO's did.

The public demands safety. Don't underestimate that. It takes just a few high profile cases. They will happen, as sure as Bush is an idiot.

dude,
i understand everything what you're saying.
you're statement about medicine having a "low tolerance to anything being unsafe" may be true, but i've seen otherwise quite often.
is it justified? nah..
i get the drift of what you speak of regarding DNPs, as it keeps coming up over and over..
in more than one thread...
you make the distinction betw/ MDs and DOs,
but, it still exists... whether you think so or not..
the strength is quite common.
i get the fact you don't like APNs, and you know what?
that's ok.
there are people who feel similar.
just because one is a nurse, doesn't mean
safety is omitted or lacking.
listen, i for one do not and would not compare or think
of myself as "equal" in the realm of MD regarding education
or "experience" (of course that varies in opinion)...
but man, there's got to be some level that you
can accept one as an RN/APN/etc...that can't be all that
threatening or whatever..
again, personally, i have NO prob working under the guise
of an attending..
perhaps that might be my drive in the future to pursue medicine as a profession...

p.s.
personally, not a fan of DNP..

 

[Taurus]

dude,
i understand everything what you're saying.
you're statement about medicine having a "low tolerance to anything being unsafe" may be true, but i've seen otherwise quite often.
is it justified? nah..
i get the drift of what you speak of regarding DNPs, as it keeps coming up over and over..
in more than one thread...
you make the distinction betw/ MDs and DOs,
but, it still exists... whether you think so or not..
the strength is quite common.
i get the fact you don't like APNs, and you know what?
that's ok.
there are people who feel similar.
just because one is a nurse, doesn't mean
safety is omitted or lacking.
listen, i for one do not and would not compare or think
of myself as "equal" in the realm of MD regarding education
or "experience" (of course that varies in opinion)...
but man, there's got to be some level that you
can accept one as an RN/APN/etc...that can't be all that
threatening or whatever..
again, personally, i have NO prob working under the guise
of an attending..
perhaps that might be my drive in the future to pursue medicine as a profession...

p.s.
personally, not a fan of DNP..

I respect nurses who don't like the DNP or who don't buy what Mundinger is selling.

However, my purpose on SDN is not to convince nurses of anything.

What I am interested in is structural changes through laws, court precedents, bringing APN's under BOM's, etc that will protect the public from DNP's who claim to be equivalent to physicians yet lack the educational credentials to back it up. For too long, medicine has turned a blind eye to APN's who mock medicine by claiming to practice "advanced nursing" when everyone knows that they're practicing medicine without a license. My hope is that some med student, resident, or attending reads my posts and is inspired enough to bring about these structural changes. Only when the APN's are under BOM's will I feel content. From the responses from med students, residents, and attendings, I think many agree with my view that nursing has gone too far and it's time for medicine to act.

 

[fab4fan]

I'm not even discussing this with you anymore if you don't have the guts to say what year of medical school you're in. I've read your rants and raves against nurses, NPs and now DNPs for 4 years, all the while with your status listed as "Medical Student." You keep threatening some sort of medical jihad against the nursing profession "just as soon as you become a doctor." Whatever. I just don't get the reason for being so cloak and dagger about your education. Other than trolls, most normal med students like to talk about their progress.

Maybe that's the operative word: normal.

 

[fab4fan]

I think my spelling ability peaked in middle school.

Just trying to point out that online education isn't necessarily the haven for stupid slackers.

I just had my butt kicked in a pre-req course. The class average for the final was 72%. I thought I was doing pretty good to get a 76%. I still wound up with an "A" for the course because the rest of my grades pulled that low grade up, but I doubt I'd have done any better sitting in the classroom listening to the material. I'd have probably fared worse; sleeping in class is not conducive to learning.

 

[rn29306]

I'm not even discussing this with you anymore if you don't have the guts to say what year of medical school you're in. I've read your rants and raves against nurses, NPs and now DNPs for 4 years, all the while with your status listed as "Medical Student." You keep threatening some sort of medical jihad against the nursing profession "just as soon as you become a doctor." Whatever. I just don't get the reason for being so cloak and dagger about your education. Other than trolls, most normal med students like to talk about their progress.

Taurus comes down here acting somewhat civil, but without the sig he normally has on the anesthesia forum.

Here is what was left out...mind you this is what is listed after every post.




Clinical training hours
DNP: 1000*
PA: 2400
MD/DO: >12000

*Offered PT & online

Yet, DNP's want to be called "Doctor", be autonomous in all clinical settings (outpt, inpt, ER), be equivalent to PCP's, gain full hospital privileges & compare their silly NBME exam to USMLE.

Nursing residencies in derm, cards, GI next?

NP report

CRNA's doing pain

Future of medicine?
1) Don't hire DNP's or CRNA's
2) Hire PA's & AA's
3) File lawsuits to bring APN's under BOM

Still skeptical? Here's one of the more interesting posts by this all-knowing medical student.

You know how you can easily spot a nurse from a mile away?

Because they don't know enough to make a coherent argument. Therefore, they just point to propaganda material from the ANA or AANA and think that is enough to convince people that they know what they're talking about. I hear it all the time when CRNA's try to justify that pain is within their scope. Most CRNA's don't know what pain is all about because they don't do it. They just listen to what the AANA wants them to believe. "Well, the BON and AANA said so. Here look, it says so on their websites." Uh, well, the courts beg to differ.

Crawl back to allnurses.

Dude at least be honest if you come to this forum. Don't change sigs just because you posted in the clinician's forum.

 

[fab4fan]

I have wondered about this for a while but have kept my thoughts to myself. Most med students post about their experiences on their rotations. Most interns and residents post vents about being interns and residents. The only thing Taurus posts about is one sort of screed or another about the dangers of mid-levels and how mid-levels will do nothing but leave butchery and death in huge swaths across the country. He doesn't post about his experiences as a student/intern/resident. So either he is really good at keeping his cards close to the vest (doubtful), or something is "hinkey." I find it hypocritical for him to criticize the education of nurse practitioners when he himself is playing the Artful Dodger with his own academic history. At the very least, it makes him not worth any more of my time.

If someone actually knows Taurus personally and can rebut this, then my apologies.

 

[Taurus]

Taurus comes down here acting somewhat civil, but without the sig he normally has on the anesthesia forum.

Dude at least be honest if you come to this forum. Don't change sigs just because you posted in the clinician's forum.

Uh, I don't control when signature my appears. That's controlled by the programming of the site. Talk to site admin.

Btw, look at post #4. My signature appears there on this thread. Signatures don't appear with every post you make on the same thread. They appear typically with the first post and after a while on subsequent posts.

Too funny though. Another example of nurse logic? Attributing magical powers to me?

 

[Taurus]

I have wondered about this for a while but have kept my thoughts to myself. Most med students post about their experiences on their rotations. Most interns and residents post vents about being interns and residents. The only thing Taurus posts about is one sort of screed or another about the dangers of mid-levels and how mid-levels will do nothing but leave butchery and death in huge swaths across the country. He doesn't post about his experiences as a student/intern/resident. So either he is really good at keeping his cards close to the vest (doubtful), or something is "hinkey." I find it hypocritical for him to criticize the education of nurse practitioners when he himself is playing the Artful Dodger with his own academic history. At the very least, it makes him not worth any more of my time.

If someone actually knows Taurus personally and can rebut this, then my apologies.

I'm no typical medical student. I'm a non-trad. I have a wider perspective than your typical 22 year old. I know what can happen to medicine if we are complacent and let the nurses have their way. I know because I have seen what has happened in other industries.

When it comes to the backlash by the physicians, the nurses are doing this to themselves. Am I the one who created the DNP? Did I force Mundinger to write that DNP's have "medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional" and that the DNP "enables advanced-practice nurses to gain the knowledge and skills necessary to practice independently in every clinical setting."? They can say this with a straight face when they know that DNP's have only 1000 clinical hours of training vs >12,000 for a physician? That the DNP can be done PT and online? How do they sleep at night?

I do nothing more than post links and information and make some commentary. Other people can make up their minds and from their responses my posts are resonating with them. If the nurses push aggressively to try to take over medicine, why are they surprised that there will be some within medicine like me who see what they're up to and are sounding the horns?

If the nurses don't want a war with the physicians, then nurses need to replace their leaders before they go down a path they may regret, ie, CRNA's doing pain in Lousiana. Because the solution I propose to respond to this aggression by the nurses is structural changes to definitively end this silliness.

 

[dfk]

I'm no typical medical student. I'm a non-trad. I have a wider perspective than your typical 22 year old. I know what can happen to medicine if we are complacent and let the nurses have their way. I know because I have seen what has happened in other industries.

When it comes to the backlash by the physicians, the nurses are doing this to themselves. Am I the one who created the DNP? Did I force Mundinger to write that DNP's have "medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional" and that the DNP "enables advanced-practice nurses to gain the knowledge and skills necessary to practice independently in every clinical setting."? They can say this with a straight face when they know that DNP's have only 1000 clinical hours of training vs >12,000 for a physician? That the DNP can be done PT and online? How do they sleep at night?

I do nothing more than post links and information and make some commentary. Other people can make up their minds and from their responses my posts are resonating with them. If the nurses push aggressively to try to take over medicine, why are they surprised that there will be some within medicine like me who see what they're up to and are sounding the horns?

If the nurses don't want a war with the physicians, then nurses need to replace their leaders before they go down a path they may regret, ie, CRNA's doing pain in Lousiana. Because the solution I propose to respond to this aggression by the nurses is structural changes to definitively end this silliness.

not to beat a dead horse, and i'm sure (know) physicians have more, but you aren't figuring in all the undergrad/grad clinical hours.
you're merely taking the requirements of the DNP program.
so, the "1000" you quote is under-represented.

 

[Miss Mab]

as is his oft repeated 2400 hrs. an over-representation of the 'standard' for PA programs



just another one of those 'facts' that slide quietly by because, well, nobody else really seems to think the sky is falling quite so much as taurus......

oh, and those guys who dig their rulers.....
'cept I already mentioned taurus didn't I..sorry...

 

[aminoacid]

not to beat a dead horse, and i'm sure (know) physicians have more, but you aren't figuring in all the undergrad/grad clinical hours.
you're merely taking the requirements of the DNP program.
so, the "1000" you quote is under-represented.

The undergrad clinical hrs are not to be counted since they are in preparation for mainly beside nursing and nursing diagnosis, not medical diagnosis and treatment.

 

[Miss Mab]

and that tired assumption gets old as well...

I, like many of "The Nurses"----as if Scorpio/Gemini thinks there is some cohesive unit of nurses anywhere--ya, that's right, we are the Borg as I'm guessing he was that guy in HS----am not a big fan of this DNP idea either as it stands, but quit w/ the over generalized BS at least.

Yes, overall, way less clinical hours than MD--Duh.
Yes, a lot of times fewer than PA. Woo woo.

But you can't simply discount the graduate (NP)clinical hours that DFK has mentioned above. I was bored enough to look at a fairly wide group of DNP programs this evening and they all look to be from about 650+(wide variation) clinical hours after you're already done a 5-800+ NP in the first place. These programs are designed for current post MSN(NP or CNS) clinicians.

Yes, seems a few schools have BSN entry options but they still make you complete the pseudo MSN hours before you do the DNP ones. I didn't notice any with a standardized or commonly accepted 1000 hours total.(gee, sorta like that 2400 number we keep reading).

Nothing vested here--keep ripping away---just a little honesty while you do so, huh? You can be just as vehement w/your crticisms while using actually valid info. While your overall premise is certainly shared by some you're also quite likely to lose some others if you're too intellectually lazy or dishonest to spend all of the 5 minutes it took me to review some of the programs already in existence.

Geez, there's enough truth in all of these issues to pick apart in themselves--why do we always have to embellish for dramatic effect? You seem to lose a bit of the high ground that way.

 

[fab4fan]

This truly is my last comment on the subject since Taurus sort-of mentioned his educational path.

There is nothing wrong with being a non-traditional student. I'm a non-traditional student and far from being a fresh-faced 22y old (although for the young 'uns out there, no, that avatar is not my picture). However, if you are not yet in medical school, perhaps a pre-med, then you shouldn't be identifying yourself here as a med student. That is disingenuous. For a certainty, you should not be thundering away at the dishonesty of DNPs calling themselves "Doctor" if you yourself have some credibility issues.

Again, there is nothing wrong with having to take the long way "home." I'm having to do the same. There's no shame in it. I just don't see the need for all this "smoke and mirrors" about what your educational level is. You're more secretive than the CIA, for pity's sake. In the end, if you finish, you're still going to be a doctor. Everyone here knows that I'm a diploma grad from 1985 who is completing a BSN, and as of today still planning to pursue an MSN to become an NP so I can work collaboratively with a doc who doesn't hate on NPs. I have no desire for independence. I just want out of the hospital for the last remaining years of my career before it sucks me dry.

That's all I've got to say to you, Taurus. Take it FWIW.

 

[fab4fan]

and that tired assumption gets old as well...

I, like many of "The Nurses"----as if Scorpio/Gemini thinks there is some cohesive unit of nurses anywhere--ya, that's right, we are the Borg as I'm guessing he was that guy in HS----am not a big fan of this DNP idea either as it stands, but quit w/ the over generalized BS at least.

Yes, overall, way less clinical hours than MD--Duh.
Yes, a lot of times fewer than PA. Woo woo.

But you can't simply discount the graduate (NP)clinical hours that DFK has mentioned above. I was bored enough to look at a fairly wide group of DNP programs this evening and they all look to be from about 650+(wide variation) clinical hours after you're already done a 5-800+ NP in the first place. These programs are designed for current post MSN(NP or CNS) clinicians.

Yes, seems a few schools have BSN entry options but they still make you complete the pseudo MSN hours before you do the DNP ones. I didn't notice any with a standardized or commonly accepted 1000 hours total.(gee, sorta like that 2400 number we keep reading).

Nothing vested here--keep ripping away---just a little honesty while you do so, huh? You can be just as vehement w/your crticisms while using actually valid info. While your overall premise is certainly shared by some you're also quite likely to lose some others if you're too intellectually lazy or dishonest to spend all of the 5 minutes it took me to review some of the programs already in existence.

Geez, there's enough truth in all of these issues to pick apart in themselves--why do we always have to embellish for dramatic effect? You seem to lose a bit of the high ground that way.

Hey there, Missy, where've ya been? Missed my back up!

 

[Chronic Student]

and that tired assumption gets old as well...

I, like many of "The Nurses"----as if Scorpio/Gemini thinks there is some cohesive unit of nurses anywhere--ya, that's right, we are the Borg as I'm guessing he was that guy in HS----am not a big fan of this DNP idea either as it stands, but quit w/ the over generalized BS at least.

Yes, overall, way less clinical hours than MD--Duh.
Yes, a lot of times fewer than PA. Woo woo.

But you can't simply discount the graduate (NP)clinical hours that DFK has mentioned above. I was bored enough to look at a fairly wide group of DNP programs this evening and they all look to be from about 650+(wide variation) clinical hours after you're already done a 5-800+ NP in the first place. These programs are designed for current post MSN(NP or CNS) clinicians.

Yes, seems a few schools have BSN entry options but they still make you complete the pseudo MSN hours before you do the DNP ones. I didn't notice any with a standardized or commonly accepted 1000 hours total.(gee, sorta like that 2400 number we keep reading).

Nothing vested here--keep ripping away---just a little honesty while you do so, huh? You can be just as vehement w/your crticisms while using actually valid info. While your overall premise is certainly shared by some you're also quite likely to lose some others if you're too intellectually lazy or dishonest to spend all of the 5 minutes it took me to review some of the programs already in existence.

Geez, there's enough truth in all of these issues to pick apart in themselves--why do we always have to embellish for dramatic effect? You seem to lose a bit of the high ground that way.

This is the second time in this thread that you have mentioned the 2400 hour PA clinicals figure. I let it go the first time. However, my clinical hours were well above that as were all of the people in my program.

I have friends who have graduated from every program in Texas and a few other places and 2400 was a minimum for them. So, I'm not really sure where you are getting this from about it being an inflated number.

 

[wisconsindoctor]

This truly is my last comment on the subject since Taurus sort-of mentioned his educational path.

There is nothing wrong with being a non-traditional student. I'm a non-traditional student and far from being a fresh-faced 22y old (although for the young 'uns out there, no, that avatar is not my picture). However, if you are not yet in medical school, perhaps a pre-med, then you shouldn't be identifying yourself here as a med student. That is disingenuous. For a certainty, you should not be thundering away at the dishonesty of DNPs calling themselves "Doctor" if you yourself have some credibility issues.

Again, there is nothing wrong with having to take the long way "home." I'm having to do the same. There's no shame in it. I just don't see the need for all this "smoke and mirrors" about what your educational level is. You're more secretive than the CIA, for pity's sake. In the end, if you finish, you're still going to be a doctor. Everyone here knows that I'm a diploma grad from 1985 who is completing a BSN, and as of today still planning to pursue an MSN to become an NP so I can work collaboratively with a doc who doesn't hate on NPs. I have no desire for independence. I just want out of the hospital for the last remaining years of my career before it sucks me dry.

That's all I've got to say to you, Taurus. Take it FWIW.

I like your frame of mind. We would get along good if we worked together. I went to college with a few older people that wanted to be a positive influence on society and wanted out of the office work style. So they went back to school in their 30's, 40's, and a couple of people even in their 50's. Heck, one of the older ladies was an active member in a war back in the days (I don't remember the exact role) - way before most of us on this website were born. I was told she was already retired from her older career and still wanted to do something with her life until she passes away. So she wanted to become a nurse. It only took her three years to get the BSN since she got a college degree 30 some years ago.

I got to know a male in his 40's that was a recovered drug addict and alcoholic that was getting his BSN. He tried this stuff while he was in high school and got addicted to it. Once he got therapy, he wanted to change his life and be a positive influence on society. So he went into nursing.

Several of the people in their 30's have worked in an office setting for a good decade. They couldn't stand the work envrionment after a few years. So they went back to get another college degree. Many of them want to go on and get an MSN.

Now, I know of a few 18 and 19 year olds that are in nursing programs because some nurses can make big bucks. These are the people who want the 6 figure nursing jobs. I also know a lot of nurses that graduated this last May that won't ever want to get an MSN or a DNP. They just want to be nurses.

I'm was a non-traditional student myself. I started college when I was 23 years old. Before I started college I owned my own business, I was a personal trainer, and I had a job that paid me $20/hr (factory job). Even though I made good money, I was not a happy person. So I applied for a job at a local hospital and loved the envrionment. Even though I took a big pay cut for the job, I was a more happy person. It was at that point that I found what I loved. So I went to college to get a Biology degree as that was the prereq for the graduate degree that I want to get so I can have a career in the medical field. In the meantime, I work as a healthcare recruiter and I edit textbooks. I will be applying to graduate schools this fall. Sure I could try to get into medical school, but I don't want to be a doctor. The career that I want invovles working with doctors. All I need to do is find a doctor that will allow me some autonomy when working with the patient (of course the doctor will be the person in charge, duh) and consult with the doctor when it comes time to diagnose patients and provide insight into the case. When I was doing some shadowing, there were two doctors who gave a lot of autonomy to the other allied healthcare worker. I loved that envrionment. I then did some volunteer work at a large university hospital and my god, the doctor would make sure he was in charge of everything. He gave very little responsibility to the person that worked along side him.

 

[Miss Mab]

This is the second time in this thread that you have mentioned the 2400 hour PA clinicals figure. I let it go the first time. However, my clinical hours were well above that as were all of the people in my program.

.

Appreciate the restraint.
But did the same approx. five minute search of accredited PA schools as I did for the DNP:

From Marrieta college in their FAQ(and actually quite fair descriptions I think)

Q: What is the difference between a PA, NP, RN, etc.?
A: PAs and NPs receive education that is competency based. Both are mid-level practitioners that in the family of medicine are between a physician and a nurse. Physician assistants are individuals trained using the medical school model, which has an expectation of strong basic science background and clinical experience of between 1,500 to 2,000 hours during their educational program.​

Then some study from 2004 from The Internet Journal of Academic Physician Assistants TM that states" NP students and PA students undergo differing paths of educational and clinical experiences. NP students only averaged 619 clinical hours as compared with what is typically one full year or over 1500 hours of clinical training for PA students "​

and finally looked up my UCD and it's 1720 total clinical hours.​

I certainly believe your school and all those you mentioned were the 2400. Okay. Perhaps that's even now a general trend. Don't misunderstand either the point or my intention.​

Clearly however many hours PA students, and for that matter current NP students, are getting is adequate to the role as we don't have dire outcomes spreading across the medical community from those already practicing.​

I'm just over this quiet acceptance of these #'s as 'fear' facts, irrespective of the dubious intention of the source, when clearly it's a misrepresentation in general and worse, not even necessary to further the agenda of those concerned for the "patients' because of NPP preparation or lack therof.​

That's it. I'm not exactly shy about the still quite low numbers for both.
I may even agree with the premise, but let's at least be honest w/the talking points and keep 'em somewhat accurate.​

Wow--so only twice and it bugged you? Yay me! I've been watching that 1000 one for months. This Humboldt vacation must be workin​

 

[Miss Mab]

Hey there, Missy, where've ya been? Missed my back up!

I been doin' the new gig.
Been keeping an eye from above and you girlie need no backup from this choir

BTW, I am in love! His name is C-17 and he's tall, grey and hulky.
He don't care for docs or NP's or PA's even.
Just lil' ole nurses and some really brainy med techs.
Oh, and he also makes room for some deserving patients too.
it is a truly wonderful relationship......

 

[deleted6669]

This is the second time in this thread that you have mentioned the 2400 hour PA clinicals figure. I let it go the first time. However, my clinical hours were well above that as were all of the people in my program.

I have friends who have graduated from every program in Texas and a few other places and 2400 was a minimum for them. So, I'm not really sure where you are getting this from about it being an inflated number.

agree- I also did way over 2400 hrs, closer to 3000. my clinical "year" was 54 weeks.
my 1st rotation alone was well over 600 hrs(trauma surgery). I averaged well over 50 hrs/week for the entire 54 weeks.
there is variation among pa programs. a short clinical yr is around 1500-1800 hrs and a long clinical yr is 2500 to 3000 hrs. it also depends what your focus is. if you do more inpt rotations you will have more hrs than if you do mostly outpt rotations. I did 1 outpt rotation(family medicine) and the rest were hospital based/inpt.

 

[Taurus]

However, if you are not yet in medical school, perhaps a pre-med, then you shouldn't be identifying yourself here as a med student. That is disingenuous. For a certainty, you should not be thundering away at the dishonesty of DNPs calling themselves "Doctor" if you yourself have some credibility issues.

Why don't you ask me a question about Step II CK? Why did I pay $1025 for Step II CS to see if I wash my hands?

If anyone who reads my post can't tell that I'm in medical school, it's probably because you're in nursing and not in medicine.

And you're missing the point. The nurses are doing this to themselves. I am merely posting information that they provide. People become convinced by articles by Mundinger et al, by the AANA propaganda, etc. Not because of my editorials. Mundinger did me a huge favor by putting out those articles. Before, I think people were skeptical of the future I was portraying but not anymore. They can read for themselves what Mundinger et al have in mind.

Nurses are no doubt annoyed with my posts because not only do I make some anti-DNP remarks but I back my comments with links. If I just made a bunch of unsubstantiated posts, the nurses wouldn't perceive me as a threat. However, because I can draw some intelligent conclusions and include evidence, I'm a bigger threat because I open people's eyes.

If you want to get angry, get angry with your nursing leaders and do something about it because we as physicians won't simply let the nurses have their way. I of course spread my message offline to my fellow classmates and teachers, but SDN is more far reaching. You do a google search and SDN posts often are part of the results. My hope is that people in position to shape the future will read my informative posts and adopt the steps I propose. That's the power of the internet. If I thought I was talking to just a bunch of nurses, I wouldn't waste my time on SDN. That's also partly why I don't bother responding to specific requests, waste of my time.

It took some time for people to come around to see how I was perceiving the DNP threat. It will no doubt take some more time for people to see that the solutions I propose should be taken seriously. I will keep hammering home my point for years to come. You can count on that.

 

[Taurus]

AMA to Wall Street Journal: Misleading for nurses to introduce themselves as a doctor

While standards for the Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) are presently being devised, nursing organizations currently recommend DNP students complete just 1,000 hours of "practical experience" after obtaining a Bachelor's degree. Physicians complete more than 12 times that amount during their graduate education. In addition to the two years of clinical rotations physicians fulfill during their four years of medical school, they also complete three or more years of full-time medical residency training.

The DNP program with the one-year residency training mentioned in the article is far from the norm. While one DNP graduate may complete a two-year program including a one-year residency, another can complete the program entirely online and without any patient care experience.

...

Edward L. Langston, MD
Board Chair, American Medical Association​

 

[fab4fan]

Why don't you ask me a question about Step II CK? Why did I pay $1025 for Step II CS to see if I wash my hands?

If anyone who reads my post can't tell that I'm in medical school, it's probably because you're in nursing and not in medicine.

And you're missing the point. The nurses are doing this to themselves. I am merely posting information that they provide. People become convinced by articles by Mundinger et al, by the AANA propaganda, etc. Not because of my editorials. Mundinger did me a huge favor by putting out those articles. Before, I think people were skeptical of the future I was portraying but not anymore. They can read for themselves what Mundinger et al have in mind.

If you want to get angry, get angry with your nursing leaders and do something about it because we as physicians won't simply let the nurses have their way. I of course spread my message offline to my fellow classmates and teachers, but SDN is more far reaching.

Congratulations on signing up for Step II CS. That means you should be graduating...? Just say it, for crying out loud. (You know that info. you shared is readily available on the USMLE site--I found it in a snap, including the $1025 rate increase for 2008.) Nice try at diverting back to your usual refrain, but that doesn't work with me. You're like that old song "Henry the Eighth." Second verse, same as the first.

I'm not angry with anyone, FWIW. I just don't like when people blur the lines or won't answer a direct question with an honest answer. Really, maybe you should consider a career in politics.

I responded because you made an attempt to answer, but until I see something substantial, e.g. "I am a fourth year medical student" I will not engage in any more of this futile back and forth. Now that I think about it, I really don't have more to say to you on this topic anyway. I don't agree with DNPs either and will not pursue that degree. If I become an NP, and that's a big "if," I plan on working somewhere in collaboration with a physician.

 

[Taurus]

Congratulations on signing up for Step II CS. That means you should be graduating...? Just say it, for crying out loud. (You know that info. you shared is readily available on the USMLE site--I found it in a snap, including the $1025 rate increase for 2008.) Nice try at diverting back to your usual refrain, but that doesn't work with me. You're like that old song "Henry the Eighth." Second verse, same as the first.

Hence, why I don't bother responding to specific requests. Waste of my time to argue and debate. Inside everyone, there lives a conspiracy theorist.

Why don't you check out my public profile?

Group Memberships
(1) Public Usergroups:

* ASA Members

​

Last time I checked, you can't be a member of ASA unless you're at least a med student.

 

[brightness]

What I don't understand is how this one woman, Mudinger, has managed to become the voice of nursing in the eyes of so many?! I can see how the ANA can be seen as the voice of nursing, but who is this one woman and how is she so powerful in the world of nursing?

Also, none of the actual clinical hours in nursing are online, correct? I mean, the courses may be online, but not the clinical stuff....