What do you think of this? Needing a PHD for NP?

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Again, the DNP does NOT change the scope of practice for an NP. Just makes the profession more professional, like physical therapists and their DPT and pharmacists with their pharmD. Please read the entire thread. And again, the online program that you spoke of was for people who already had their MSN, along with the fact that it's very hotly contested in the nursing world, in any case.

fab4fan, there are the direct-entry APNI programs, but they are generally ONLY for family nurse practitioner, and not anything else. Do I agree with those? No, not particularly. As for CRNAs, the person has 4 years of a BSN, 2 years of RN experience, and 3 years to get their CRNA. To be fair, clinical components aren't until the 3rd year of your BSN, so figure 7 years of practice. I think that's adequate for minimum competency (key word: minimum). And have you researched getting into CRNA programs? There's no way in hell (or at least on this side of the coast), that you get in with just 2 years experience. They say that, but there're waiting lists longer than a woman's line to go to the bathroom during a ballgame.

I'm not sure what you mean by "third year of your BSN." Are you counting clinical practice in basic nursing education? That doesn't count at all. Start with years as an RN and go from there. And FWIW, with all of the accelerated BSN programs, it's getting easier to get that BSN-MSN faster. Like I said, search here, search allnurses. You will see numerous posts on fast-track methods to CRNA.

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Hmmm, you will like this take by a MD on the ability of a NP to practice
http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?ID=420284&Category=8&subCategoryID=

Eveyone is entitle to their opinion, this is america. But are this NP going to be able to provide this "perfect" practice of medicine when they have to see 40-50 patients per day? Every doctor can practice "perfect" medicine if they have 45-1 hour per patient which we know will never happen. As NP's start to take more patient and the time per patient starts to go down then we will see why docs practice medicine the way they do, is not because they werent teach to do it that way is that the system dont allow them too.
 
Krisss17,
I agree with you on the DNP and clinical component.
I think the DNP itself is fundamentally positive with the idea of increasing the requirements to function as a mid level practitioner. However judging from a huge variance among the programs it is strange to what the curriculum actually is. I have seen the "official milestones" of the program but feel at the individual school level there is a huge degree of interpretation. I think it would be great to have the NP receive additional clinical time and receive the DNP but this doesn't seem the case in every curriculum. I think the PA programs are much more regimented and have a clear set of expectations - this is a positive to me. Students, patients, and "Jobs" will likely have a standard impression of the PA from the school house. The DNP has a larger variance which is multiplied by the ability to have a DNP as a _______ (where the blank is some sort of a specialist.. or generalist.. or NP type.., some might be mostly online, some might be completely in the school house).
Interesting topic~
 
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Again, the DNP does NOT change the scope of practice for an NP. Just makes the profession more professional, like physical therapists and their DPT and pharmacists with their pharmD. Please read the entire thread.
For the record, I don't give a rat's ass what letters they put behind the name. A nurse, of any degree, having the authority to independently practice medicine and bill accordingly without the same responsibilities regarding taking tough cases, equal malpractice, equal liability in lawsuits, governed by the same board and regulations, equal training, etc. stinks. A lot. The cherry picking analogy is spot on.
 
What I don't understand is how this one woman, Mudinger, has managed to become the voice of nursing in the eyes of so many?! I can see how the ANA can be seen as the voice of nursing, but who is this one woman and how is she so powerful in the world of nursing?

Also, none of the actual clinical hours in nursing are online, correct? I mean, the courses may be online, but not the clinical stuff....

Of course not - clinicals are done in actual practice. I did many of my didactic nursing classes online, and the clinicals were done on live models and then on actual patients in-house and in OPDs.

I do not understand the flap about online classwork. That must be spoken by individuals who are threatened by what nurses can and cannot do. It is clear that said individuals are NOT reading the information presented; rather, they are reading into it and taking what they like out of context.

Medicine is very reticent about changing its standards, even when it is beneficial to do so. As regards online classwork, it needs to come into the 21st century.
 
sorry, my post was 100% sarcastic!!! If you read my other post you can see Im 200% against this joke of a diploma giving RN the power to treat patient independently. Online courses? One time per week visit to campus?

You clearly are 'jumping off the cliff' because everyone else is (re: online classwork), not because you have read and come to a logoical conclusion on your own.

Nursing, like many other professions, is suffering a shortage of pratitioners. For individuals who would gladly become nurses (or MBAs, lawyers, etc.) but do not have the time to attend live classes, they instead attend online and do the work independently.

First of all, online classwork is not for everyone. Many students do better in face-to-face contact and know that there are too many distractions for them to complete the didactic portion of the classwork online. Clinicals are done with the patient population; this is a BON regulation in each state - nurses don't just start caring for patients w/o the required number of clinical hours, and anyone who believes that is either stupid or undisciplined enough to not take the time to look it up - it's all availble from each state's BON. Let's hope it's because you're too tired from your med studies and that you won't take that kind of mentality into medicine.

For those whom it works, online classes are a Godsend. Nurses are not nurses because they couldn't make the med school cut; there is clearly a distinction between the desire to nurse and the desire to doctor. Unfortunately, medicine, with its stuck-in-the-old-standards mentality is now cutting its own throat. People do not want to spend the best years of their lives going into hock and then the rest of their lives digging themselves out; they don't want to spend countless (and thankless) hours mashing through the paperwork required by the third-party payors. And every other post I see online by already-practicing docs tells me there's a great deal of dissatisfaction with the profession for these very reasons.

As the costs of being a patient keep rising, so does the push towards socialized medicine. If medicine won't change its thinking, then Uncle Sam will do it - and there will be no more "glory" in being an MD than being a member of any other profession.

Read the account below, from Dr. Gott (MD !):

Q: I was scheduled for my yearly physical by my physician recently, but, when I arrived at his office, the receptionist told me he was way behind on his appointments and that I would be seeing his nurse practitioner.

I went into her office, where she did the physical, read my lab reports and made a few suggestions regarding my health. I liked her very much. She seemed thorough and took time with me. I never saw the doctor.

I would choose to continue with the nurse practitioner as my regular health care person but don't know if this is appropriate and would like your opinion. I want to know how educated these individuals are and if they are qualified to diagnose and prescribe medications and remedies.

A: A nurse practitioner is a registered nurse who has completed advanced education and training in specialty areas (often family practice, pediatrics or obstetrics/gynecology as midwives) and diagnosis and management of most common (including chronic) disorders.

She has at minimum a bachelor's degree in nursing, but most professionals, employers and some states require a master's degree and board certification in the chosen specialty.

Nurse practitioners can also be accredited through a national board exam similar to some doctors. This changes the letters after their names according to the specialty, such as certified pediatric nurse practitioner or certified family nurse practitioner.

Nurse practitioners must follow the regulations of the Nurse Practice Act for the state in which they work. They can be licensed in all 50 states and have the ability to dispense most medications. Some states require a physician to co-sign the prescription as an extra safety precaution.

Most of what doctors can do, nurse practitioners can do.

They can diagnose, treat and monitor most illnesses, injuries, infections and chronic diseases (hypertension, diabetes, high cholesterol and more). NPs can also take medical histories; perform physicals; order, interpret and report lab results, X-rays and EKGs; and much more.

They can even work without the aid of a physician; however, most work in conjunction with one or have an affiliation. Nurse practitioners can also serve as primary health care providers.

I urge anyone interested in learning more about nurse practitioners to visit the American Academy of Nurse Practitioners' Web site at www.aanp.org or the American College of Nurse Practitioners' Web site at www.acnpweb.org.
 
I do not understand the flap about online classwork. That must be spoken by individuals who are threatened by what nurses can and cannot do. It is clear that said individuals are NOT reading the information presented; rather, they are reading into it and taking what they like out of context.

Here is a reply I wrote for a thread in the Clinical Psychology @ online education. All bolding is my own.

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I was reading through a study by Anstine & Skidmore (2005) and they had a few interesting things in their lit review worth mentioning. I also included their conclusion section of their study below.

Anstine, J., Skidmore, M. A Small Sample Study of Traditional and Online Courses with Sample Selection Adjustment. Journal of Economic Education. Washington: Spring 2005. Vol. 36, Iss. 2; pg. 107, 21 pgs

A few studies suggest that learning outcomes in the online environment are inferior or similar to those in the traditional environment. Hiltz et al. (2000) asked professors to describe how students learn best in virtual classrooms. Their results suggest that if students are actively involved in the class material, then students in an online class learn as much as they do in a traditional class. However, if students are just responding to posted material, doing assignments, e-mailing them, and having them graded, or otherwise following correspondence-type class work, they do not learn effectively.

Harrington (1999) taught two statistics classes as part of a Master of Social Work program. She found that students with a high GPA (grade point average) that were enrolled in a distance-education statistics course did as well as those in a similar traditional class. However, students with a lower GPA in the online class did not do as well as their counterparts in the traditional statistics class. Her study was constrained by a relatively small sample (94 students) and by not having much information about student characteristics. In addition, she noted that a limitation of her study was that there may have been some systematic differences between the students taking the classes in the two learning environments for which she did not control.

Cooper (2001) surveyed students in both a traditional class and an online class she taught, asking them to evaluate their learning experiences. The class, management computer systems (MCS), combines business information with computer information systems material. Some students in the online class (31 percent) said they would have learned more in a traditional class environment, whereas 12.5 percent said that they learned more in the online class. Cooper also compared grades in the two classes and determined that students in an online class learned as much as students in the same in-class MCS course. This conflicting information about learning online is not unique. Most studies to date have yet to determine whether online classes are inferior to their traditional counterparts.

The findings of Harrington (1999) and Cooper (2001) echoed the majority of current literature comparing traditional classes to distance-education classes: There was no large difference between the two approaches to learning. In a comprehensive study, Russell (1999) compiled dozens of studies on distance education. The findings indicated no difference in student learning, and thus his book was entitled, The No Significant Difference Phenomenon.

Although these studies indicate that researchers have examined learning outcomes, very little research specifically examines economics classes in the two teaching formats. However, the limited existing evidence suggests a difference in student learning between traditional classes and online classes. Vachris (1999) described her online experience in the introductory economics class she teaches at Christopher Newport College (CNU), but the question of student learning was only addressed indirectly. CNU gives students surveys at the end of each class that are used to evaluate teaching. In general, the teaching evaluation scores in the online classes at CNU were lower than they were in the equivalent in-class evaluations.

Most recently, Brown and Liedholm (2002) found significant differences in the teaching formats. They examined student scores in three different introductory microeconomics classes-a live class, a hybrid class, and a virtual class. Their results showed that scores on simple test questions were similar for the three classes, but students in the traditional class did much better on questions involving complex material. Some of this learning differential was attributed to the in-class students spending more time on the class work.

Most of the literature on distance-education classes had described professors' experiences teaching the classes. The little research to date that compared online and traditional courses had used student evaluations, grades given in the classes, and surveys asking students how much they learned. The majority of the research on distance education had not compared student learning while controlling for prior knowledge of the material and taking other student characteristics into account. More important, none of the existing research addressed the potential endogeneity of learning environment choice.
CONCLUSIONS
In this article, we examined the effectiveness of the online learning environment relative to the traditional learning environment. We used exam score averages of students taking statistics foundations and managerial economics at the UWW College of Business and Economics M.B.A. program. A simple comparison of average exam scores revealed little difference in learning outcomes for both the statistics and the managerial course in the two learning environments. However, an OLS regression showed that holding other factors constant, online students scored nearly 5 percentage points lower than did students in the traditional class. However, separate regressions for the statistics and managerial economics courses showed, that the difference was significant only in the statistics course.

Because of concerns about the possible relationship between the choice to take an online course and learning, we estimated learning environment choice and outcomes simultaneously. We used a two-stage least squares procedure and a regression with endogenous switching. The two-stage least squares estimates indicated that the online environment yielded learning outcomes that were more that 6.5 percentage points lower than for the traditional environment. However, when we ran separate regressions for the statistics and managerial course, again the online indicator variable was only significant in the statistics course. The probit estimates of learning environment choice indicate that students who have children in the home are more likely to take an online course. This suggests that the online M.B.A. program is reaching students who might not otherwise be in a graduate program, at least not at this time. Our findings also demonstrate that an examination of learning outcomes in the two learning environments may require separate regressions to identify more accurately the underlying determinants of learning in the two environments.

The estimates from the switching regression model show that the online learning environment was substantially less effective than classes in the traditional format. From the switching regression estimates, the predicted online score was significantly lower than the actual average online exam score, and the predicted traditional exam score was significantly higher than the actual average traditional exam score; this pattern suggests that the unobservable characteristics are systematically related to outcomes. However, despite the limitations of the online learning environment, online students rely on intangible (unobservable) characteristics, which enables them to perform about as well as students in a traditional class environment.
 
To all the respected members of the SDN:

As a future Doctor of Nursing Practice, I would like to share my insight with all of you.

Physicians (and physicians-to-be) spend an untold amount of hours in rigorous study, learning the complexities of the human body; then, you are required to add again as much (if not more) time in practicing your new-found knowledge during residency.

Additionally, you have gone into debt, spent thousands of dollars for the privilege of being academically and professionally beaten to death. When you are finished, you have earned your place amongst care providers the world over.

So. Should a DNP automatically be given carte blanche recoginition as an MD? Of course not. That's not what it is all about.

The Doctor of Nursing Practice is a NURSING terminal degree for NPs in clinical practice. I have no need for a PhD, I am not in research; nor do I want to spend my time in teaching. I wish to stay focused in direct patient care, increasing my clinical skills as well as knowledge base. There are doctors of psychology; doctors of optometry; of chiropractic, of osteopathic, of phamacology, and others in specialized fields of the human body who earned their doctorates and are not MDs. Nor do they (nor should they) masquerade as one. But when I am introduced to my patients, I will be Dr. Thunder, clinic nurse practitioner. Like the aforementioned doctors, I will have earned my right to the title, having done the work and spent the time in clinical residency. I will never pretend to be an MD, and my patients will know the difference. I will always have an MD for back-up and referral.

Yes, you will cross paths with more than one DNP who will try to tweak your nose with their licensure, and some who will outright state that you and they are on equal footing, which they will not be, not by education or hours of residency.

My choice for the DNP is based on time and money. Do I have "the brains" to make the cut into med school? Yes. What I don't have is time - if I applied and were accepted tomorrow, I would be 59 before I was out on my own, practicing medicine. I want to help the community in which I work, as soon as is reasonably possible. I live in a rural area for which the MD draw is low. When one considers what is spent in medical education, and the piss-poor "salary" earned in residency, there is no way many docs would be realistically able to afford to come to anything short of a large hospital or teaching facility. It is oftentimes why specialties vs. primary residencies are chosen. You are drowning in debt, with the best part of your twenties and even your thirties, missed, spent grinding away in study and practice, and you want to get on with your life.

How many of you now do your psych rotations with and take classes from your med schools' tenured, staff psychologists? How many of you take classes from PhDs in neauroanatomy? PharmDs in Pharmacology? They are not MDs. But to generally state that they are not specialists in their fields because they chose not to go the MD path is erroneous.

Nurses have always been able to pass gas ('anesthetists' for those among you uninitiated); they now are first assistants in the OR, working directly hands-on with the surgeons. Nurse practitioners (be they MS or DNP) are admitting patients, taking call; they assess, diagnose, treat, write scripts; they read xrays and cast fractures; they suture up cuts in the ED. None of this is news.

For many of us, this choice is not because we are doctor wanna-be's - it is secondary to a pressing need in our communities; we cannot get MDs to practice amonsgt us.

If any MDs or MDs to-be are worried, they have reason to be. Potential med school candidates are looking at the time / cost investment of med school/residency/lifestyle vs. time/cost investment/lifestyle of other professions. Many turn away from medicine - not because of the lack of interest as much as the time and money issues. It simply isn't worth 10-12 years of their lives and the monetary equivalent of two mortgages before they can begin "living".

Another, uglier reason is in the offing. As health care costs (doctors visits, pharmaceuticals, specialists, treatments, DMEs) continue to escalate, cheaper labor will be needed, i.e., medicine will become socialized. Non-doctor specialists programs will prevail; doctors' salaries will not so much decrease as other non-doctor specialists' salaries will rise to meet them. The status and privilege of being a doctor will be like that of many other countries in the world - it will simply be just another profession.
 
I don't have the time to reply to all the posts directed my way (which were thoughtful for the most part and I thank you for them and will try to reply within a few days), but I will say that I have to echo what Vermont Thunder said about the time commitment for school.

I'm at a fairly "traditional" age for medical school, being only 22, but I have other dreams and goals in life that I think are incompatible with medicine. I want to work with Doctors without Borders, travel and do nursing overseas in a first-world foreign country, finish becoming fluent in German and Spanish, get married and raise a family where I'll see my babies grow up and not have to worry about dividing time between studying and seeing them because they (as people) are more important than a degree (IMHO). I want to do all of this before my 40s, when I will have larger financial responsibilities like taking care of my parents and paying for my kids' college, and you know, the commitments to marriage and not rushing off to do whatever I want.

Nursing graduate study alows for one to do it part-time or full-time, often with tuition stipends (with the exception of PhD) paid for by an employer. Beyond all that, I enjoy nursing's primary focus of treating the whole person. Not that nursing doesn't have medicine or that physicians don't treat the whole person, but that the primary focus of each profession is different.

I've been searching for these answers in the past few months and researching different types of health degrees and I think that this is it for me. Maybe that will change, but maybe not.
 
have no need for a PhD, I am not in research; nor do I want to spend my time in teaching. I wish to stay focused in direct patient care, increasing my clinical skills as well as knowledge base.

The DNP curricula that I have seen have little to nothing to do with clinical practice. They are all about "statistics" "business practices" "health care policy" "leadership" and all that other garbage. This doesn't really enhance your clinical skills when it comes to the day-to-day and treating your patients. This is why it's a load of crap. I doubt many people would have a huge problem with it if it had advanced coursework in pathophysiology, pharmacology, clinical procedures, etc. and truly enhanced the education of the Nurse Practitioner student.

As a disclaimer, I have not looked at all DNP program curriculums, but I did do a Google search on "DNP curriculum" and looked at enough to say that I was horrified.
 
:shrug:

Here's a quote from the American Association of Colleges of Nursing on the DNP curriculum:

The DNP focuses on providing leadership for evidence-based practice. This requires competence in translating research in practice, evaluating evidence, applying research in decision-making, and implementing viable clinical innovations to change practice.

http://www.aacn.nche.edu/DNP/DNPFAQ.htm, 2nd hit down on a google search, "DNP Curriculum."

As other people have mentioned, DNP programs are not interchangeable according to their topic. A community health program obviously focuses on the outpatient population and community as client and uses a lot more general population statistical data to plan his or her care. A neonatal NP focuses solely on inpatient neonates, usually premature ones. And I personally know of an NP who specializes in pain management, along with her patients on the trauma floor that I used to work on.

My old psych clinical professor practices as a psych NP and has told me that there are no differences in licensing practice for what he does versus a physician in regards to psych care in his personal practice. Perhaps he could be wrong or I misheard him.

In any case, I do not believe that NPs will take the place of physicians (nor should they) and that they will be used to complement care, as they have in the past. They're not looking to expand their practice, as far as I know (with a vocal minority as some have suggested). Why does having an extra year of schooling/clinicals seem threatening, if it's not changing the scope of practice?
 
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Yeah, so what's your point? I learned about all that crap in a 4 credit course during undergrad called "health care research." You shouldn't get granted a doctoral degree for that monkey business.

Here's the first result from google:
http://fpb.case.edu/DNP/curriculum.shtm
I don't see how learning about more "nursing theory" is going to make anyone a better clinician.

That page you linked also says curriculum is up to the schools themselves.

They want to provide leadership for....teaching, research? That's what the PhD is. The doctor of nursing practice should have advanced scientific/medical work, not fluff.
 
They want to provide leadership for....teaching, research? That's what the PhD is.

That's one of my issues with it. If it is meant for advanced clinical training, the curriculum should primarily be clinical. If it is meant for research/stats training, why not a Ph.D? If it is meant for business classes, why not an MBA? If it is just a mishmash of those things....it sounds like, "a jack of all trades, and a master of none."

A doctoral degree is suppose to be the highest terminating degree in a particular field, and represent mastery in a given area. I don't see how mastery can be established if the coursework is so varied. If the only difference between an MS and a doctorate is a handful of random classes....should it really be a doctorate? How is that not a certificate or another MS or advanced training?

As someone finishing a doctoral degree, I'm peturbed that this coursework is passing for a doctorate....as it doesn't display mastery of the given area, nor does it seem a rigorous academic endeavor meant to prepare the person to represent the highest training in the chosen field. It is pretty frustrating to be honest.
 
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Yeah, so what's your point? I learned about all that crap in a 4 credit course during undergrad called "health care research." You shouldn't get granted a doctoral degree for that monkey business.

Here's the first result from google:
http://fpb.case.edu/DNP/curriculum.shtm
I don't see how learning about more "nursing theory" is going to make anyone a better clinician.

That page you linked also says curriculum is up to the schools themselves.

They want to provide leadership for....teaching, research? That's what the PhD is. The doctor of nursing practice should have advanced scientific/medical work, not fluff.

...so evidence-based research is "monkey business"? Am I misreading what you're saying?

Nursing IS about teaching. We teach our patients constantly--it's a large priority, after physical needs have been met. Medicine and nursing have different focuses, like I said in an earlier post. Neither has the complete absense of each other's focus, but there is still a noticeable difference.

A few lines below where I quoted, they distinguish the PhD and DNP:

The PhD and DNS/DNSc programs are research intensive. In many cases PhD graduates accept academic or governmental positions where research is a major expectation. The DNP graduates will likely seek practice leadership roles in a variety of settings-management of quality initiatives, executives in healthcare organizations, directors of clinical programs, and faculty positions responsible for clinical program delivery and clinical teaching would be appropriate.

Doesn't an MD still publish papers on personal findings in practice or some research aspects?

On another note, the AACN noted that the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE) will start a process of accreditation of DNPs, so while the school may have some rein on how their curriculum is set up, they won't be worth much if they don't follow guidelines. And I'd much rather look at the AACN than a random nursing school in Ohio listed as the first hit on a google search versus a national organization.

As to Therapist4Change's opinion that the DNP program is not an adequate doctoral program, well, I'm a recent BSN grad and have no means of evaluating doctoral programs to see if they are competent to be considered a doctoral program. Therefore, my opinion isn't worth that much in this subject area, but I'd imagine that there'd be a lot more outcry about this in the healthcare field if the DNP truly were as illegitimate as some people make it out to be.
 
It's amusing but almost understandable when the docs and pre-meds get whiny and hysterical over the whole DNP concept. I get it, looks like there's gonna be those few who believe this makes the two 'equal'. (y,know, in case anyone missed it that the majority within nursing do not feel this to be the case or have any desire for it either. I'm pretty sure we all knew had to find the same guidance counselor back in the day....)
But I find it a tad disingenuous when our PA colleagues(or pre-pa as may be the case) pile on to continue not with actual facts about these new programs but the same propaganda our more vocal 'haters' do. It's laughable.
What would you instead suggest to the vast majority of NP's or those already on the path to be such when the "rules" and terminal degree have changed midstream do instead? Chuck the educational/career investment already made, lotsa money and more importantly time, because we don't now happen to agree with the new requirements? I don't go around defending the implementation of DNP but besides working within state BON's not to change it, guess what, we don't get to make the rules.
I would suggest folks on that side of the house give it some thought because you're nuts not to think the same idea (or at least a standardized Master's) isn't coming down your pike, too at some point. "Competency based" ed. talk all you want, it's fairly inevitable. I wonder how many would agree to just walk away on principle then?
Then again, by that point I guess the nurses will have done the heavy lifting of resistance anyway so that oughtta make it a little easier for those who follow.....
Oh, now I get it, good one! :)
 
The DNP curricula that I have seen have little to nothing to do with clinical practice. They are all about "statistics" "business practices" "health care policy" "leadership" and all that other garbage. This doesn't really enhance your clinical skills when it comes to the day-to-day and treating your patients. This is why it's a load of crap. I doubt many people would have a huge problem with it if it had advanced coursework in pathophysiology, pharmacology, clinical procedures, etc. and truly enhanced the education of the Nurse Practitioner student.

As a disclaimer, I have not looked at all DNP program curriculums, but I did do a Google search on "DNP curriculum" and looked at enough to say that I was horrified.


Disclaimer or not, if you wish to criticize contructively (and to have your opinion respected because you did the research), you need to delve deeper into AANA's purpose for the DNP programs. The DNP programs are varied, and yes, some of them are offered online without any evidence to additional clinical hours. But if I, as a nurse practitoner, have thousands of hours between my program's clinical requirement as well as in-practice admitting patients, taking call, performing physical exams, assessing - diagnosing - treating - referring - writing scripts, reading xrays, casting, suturing - why do I need more clinical hours? The fact is, I don't. And neither do many of the nurse practitioners who have been doing all of the above for many years. This is nothing new. Nurse practitoners have been functioning in this role for YEARS.

What is needed, is for doctor wanna-be's to protest the ever-escalating costs of med school - then they would be free to choose primary care for their careers instead of choosing more lucrative specialties so they can pay their loans and afford a life.
 
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VT interesting points~ I have two questions or comments that would appreciate your response.

What do you envision as the upcoming future for NPs/DNPs and malpractice insurance rates? As they distance themselves from the doctor I'm assuming they will have to retain and operate insurance. Based on the 'outcome' of the first few years I'm sure the rates will make some sort of adjustment.

I agree with the idea of the DNP, however I have seen programs that contain a lot of open credits (in addition to the standard MSN FNP program for ex) that include business and/or leadership. Do you feel the best way to level the playing field for those in PHP in the DNP role is for standardized testing?
 
VT interesting points~ I have two questions or comments that would appreciate your response.

What do you envision as the upcoming future for NPs/DNPs and malpractice insurance rates? As they distance themselves from the doctor I'm assuming they will have to retain and operate insurance. Based on the 'outcome' of the first few years I'm sure the rates will make some sort of adjustment.

In addition to liability insurance offered by the facility in which I work, I also carry my own policy. The premiums for an NP are much higher than those of a staff RN; they would need to be. The more responsibilty a practitoner assumes, the more liable is that person. Private practice? I don't see myself doing that, DNP ot not, but I would assume the liability rates would be the same for the practitioner, and possibly more required for the additional staff employed.

I agree with the idea of the DNP, however I have seen programs that contain a lot of open credits (in addition to the standard MSN FNP program for ex) that include business and/or leadership. Do you feel the best way to level the playing field for those in PHP in the DNP role is for standardized testing?

NPs take boards before they can practice (at least, in Vermont) and additional boards, when the individual has been in practice, seem like over-kill. But I do believe in standardized testing. This raises other issues. One respondent stated that some new nurses are going into programs directly out of BSN classes, and I feel that jeopardizes the patient population as well as the profession of nursing. Experience needed is the justification for the long residency hours (~12,000): you need to practice, practice, practice before you are on your own. That is the whole point behind Taurus' (and many other respondents' ) comments. They have strong arguments, and they are valid.
 
Okay, really, I have no problem with anyone advancing their education at all. I don't have a problem with any of you fine posters. What I disagree with is the name of the degree when combined with the intended functions and curricula. They call it the Doctor of Nursing Practice, leading one to believe that these degree holders would be in the trenches with patients, treating them, etc. This is the function that I thought was intended when reading Mundinger's now famous article. When you read her article (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120710036831882059.html) it seems that DNPs will be clinicians. So how does this:

"The DNP graduates will likely seek practice leadership roles in a variety of settings-management of quality initiatives, executives in healthcare organizations, directors of clinical programs, and faculty positions responsible for clinical program delivery and clinical teaching would be appropriate,"

translate into nursing practice? These functions seem like what any PhD in nursing candidate would be well-poised to handle. This is where it's all getting muddled! So what is the real intention of the DNP!? If it's what the AACN or whatever says, then I think the PhD in nursing should be completely adequate. Why create a new degree only to hold the same types of classes? That's my only issue with it...nursing practice vs. nursing/healthcare administration. What do they really want DNP grads to do? If they get that settled, then fine, more power to them/you.

And no, evidence-based medicine is not monkey business! I'm just talking about the coursework vs. degree vs. intended function.

Perhaps I'm just bitter that almost everyone I've talked to about my intended career says, "Why not be an NP, they're better!"

:mad::mad::mad:??????????????:mad::mad::mad:

FWIW, I don't hate NPs! When I have some extra money lying around I want to join the ACC (PAs and NPs working in haaaarmony :love:). Also, in terms of degree creep, at least the one and only DScPA program is entirely clinically based--isn't it just a long residency in EMed?

And I'm spent... I don't think it's worth it to say anything else on this issue since no one agrees and probably never will.
 
And no, evidence-based medicine is not monkey business! I'm just talking about the coursework vs. degree vs. intended function.

Perhaps I'm just bitter that almost everyone I've talked to about my intended career says, "Why not be an NP, they're better!"
:mad::mad::mad:??????????????:mad::mad::mad:

And I'm spent... I don't think it's worth it to say anything else on this issue since no one agrees and probably never will.

This appears to be the problem!
 
Yeah, yeah, let's all kick lapelirroja, her ideas are stupid, dumb, and "laughable."

Perhaps the problem is not that I'm bitter, but how people came to think that way in the first place that makes me react the way I do.
 
One respondent stated that some new nurses are going into programs directly out of BSN classes, and I feel that jeopardizes the patient population as well as the profession of nursing. Experience needed is the justification for the long residency hours (~12,000): you need to practice, practice, practice before you are on your own. That is the whole point behind Taurus' (and many other respondents' ) comments. They have strong arguments, and they are valid.

Another issue I have with it....I think they need to have an hour req. before being able to apply, and have it be significant. I still think the basic curriculum is not what they should be, but when that is combined with people trying to cram it all in without significant experience in the field as an NP, it becomes even more problematic.
 
They have DENP at University of WA.
They take a person with previous BS in something other then nursing... no health care experience req.. and a given number of pre-reqs. Then you enter the program and first spend 15 months getting the NCLEX requirements completed...and immediately start work for another ~3 years to get your DNP. The program has several options on which speciality you are applying to (FNP, ANP, etc).
 
They have DENP at University of WA.
They take a person with previous BS in something other then nursing... no health care experience req.. and a given number of pre-reqs. Then you enter the program and first spend 15 months getting the NCLEX requirements completed...and immediately start work for another ~3 years to get your DNP. The program has several options on which speciality you are applying to (FNP, ANP, etc).

Actually I almost did the MENP program at UW and at the time, they had 29 focal areas. Seriously. Last I heard, they were about to drop the direct entry DNP program.
 
...so evidence-based research is "monkey business"? Am I misreading what you're saying?

Nursing IS about teaching. We teach our patients constantly--it's a large priority, after physical needs have been met. Medicine and nursing have different focuses, like I said in an earlier post. Neither has the complete absense of each other's focus, but there is still a noticeable difference.

A few lines below where I quoted, they distinguish the PhD and DNP:



Doesn't an MD still publish papers on personal findings in practice or some research aspects?

On another note, the AACN noted that the Commission on Collegiate Nursing Education (CCNE) will start a process of accreditation of DNPs, so while the school may have some rein on how their curriculum is set up, they won't be worth much if they don't follow guidelines. And I'd much rather look at the AACN than a random nursing school in Ohio listed as the first hit on a google search versus a national organization.

As to Therapist4Change's opinion that the DNP program is not an adequate doctoral program, well, I'm a recent BSN grad and have no means of evaluating doctoral programs to see if they are competent to be considered a doctoral program. Therefore, my opinion isn't worth that much in this subject area, but I'd imagine that there'd be a lot more outcry about this in the healthcare field if the DNP truly were as illegitimate as some people make it out to be.

Sorry, call me a Benedict Arnold to the profession, but I have the same beef the other posters do with the DNP. In my mind, the DNP should be about providing hard-core sciences, advanced skills--not more theory, not more of this ethereal "nurse-speak." If I want to get a degree as an acute care nurse practitioner, then by golly I want some really solid critical care education. Education that goes way beyond the master's level. What I see being offered by most DNP programs doesn't look like what I want or need. A nurse theoretician isn't going to help me manage a critically ill patient.

No new skills, no deeper understanding of science? No thanks.
 
In my mind, the DNP should be about providing hard-core sciences, advanced skills--not more theory, not more of this ethereal "nurse-speak." If I want to get a degree as an acute care nurse practitioner, then by golly I want some really solid critical care education. Education that goes way beyond the master's level. What I see being offered by most DNP programs doesn't look like what I want or need. A nurse theoretician isn't going to help me manage a critically ill patient.

No new skills, no deeper understanding of science? No thanks.

Well said.
 
What I see being offered by most DNP programs doesn't look like what I want or need. A nurse theoretician isn't going to help me manage a critically ill patient.

No new skills, no deeper understanding of science? No thanks.

Well said. I strongly 2nd your sentiments.

This is Columbia's DNP cirriculum (and typical of cirriculum at other U's):
· Translation and Synthesis of Evidence for Optimal Outcomes
· Quantitative Research Methods
· Epidemiology and Environmental Health
· Legal and Ethical Issues
· Clinical Genomics Advanced Seminar
· Practice Management
· Informatics
· Doctor of Nursing Practice I and II
· Chronic Illness Management

What, beyond my masters preparation, am I to get from this? What here will qualify me to be a better clinician? I don't see it.
 
compare that with the only current doctorate (DHSc.) emergency medicine pa RESIDENCY (at baylor for active duty army pa's only) which requires a FULL TIME 6 mo research project in emergency medicine plus the following FULL TIME ONSITE CLINICAL ROTATION components:
B. The Clinical curriculum consists of the following rotations:
EM 500 Introduction to Emergency Medicine
EM 501 Introduction to Emergency Medicine
EM 502 Introduction to Emergency Medicine
EM 503 Emergency Medicine & Anesthesia
EM 504 Emergency Medicine, EMS & Law
EM 505 Emergency Medicine & Toxology
EM 506 Emergency Medicine & Neurology/Neurosurgery
EM 507 Pediatrics
EM 508 OB/GYN
EM 509 Critical Care/Cardiology
EM 510 Trauma Surgery/SICU
EM 511 OMF/EENT Disorders
EM 512 Orthopedics
EM 513 Radiology
 
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Sorry, call me a Benedict Arnold to the profession, but I have the same beef the other posters do with the DNP. In my mind, the DNP should be about providing hard-core sciences, advanced skills--not more theory, not more of this ethereal "nurse-speak." If I want to get a degree as an acute care nurse practitioner, then by golly I want some really solid critical care education. Education that goes way beyond the master's level. What I see being offered by most DNP programs doesn't look like what I want or need. A nurse theoretician isn't going to help me manage a critically ill patient.

No new skills, no deeper understanding of science? No thanks.

is this what you were looking for?

www.mystlukesonline.org/for-healthc...ian-assistants-nurse-practitioners/index.aspx
 
Well said. I strongly 2nd your sentiments.

This is Columbia's DNP cirriculum (and typical of cirriculum at other U's):
· Translation and Synthesis of Evidence for Optimal Outcomes
· Quantitative Research Methods
· Epidemiology and Environmental Health
· Legal and Ethical Issues
· Clinical Genomics Advanced Seminar
· Practice Management
· Informatics
· Doctor of Nursing Practice I and II
· Chronic Illness Management

What, beyond my masters preparation, am I to get from this? What here will qualify me to be a better clinician? I don't see it.

I don't even understand what the first course means, let alone how it could possibly be relevant to practice. It sounds like "Lets take a bunch of important sounding words and string them together and make this look like an impressive class." It sent the needle on my BS meter way over into the red zone, that's for sure.

Most of this just makes me shake my head.
 
Here i a good write-up about some of the larger concerns involved in the DNP.

SOURCE: Fulton, J.S., Lyon, B.L. (2005). The Need for Some Sense Making: Doctor of Nursing Practice. Online Journal of Issues in Nursing.

(It can be found on Medscape: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/514545_1, free sign up for access)

It is rather lengthy, but I happened upon the below section that I thought was worth posting. I haven't reviewed the rest of the article, so YMMV.

A Confusion Regarding the Focus of the DNP

Despite the fact that there is no national agreement on the need for the degree or the outcomes of the degree, several programs have moved ahead to offer a DNP including the University of Tennessee, Rush University, University of Kentucky, Columbia University, and Drexal University. Table 1 presents the focus of the five different programs as described on each university's website. The University of Tennessee's (2005) DNP provides an advanced practice focus that includes a variety of specialty clinical areas; however, the functional role of these graduates is unclear. Rush University's DNP (n.d.) prepares graduates with expertise in outcomes management and leadership in complex environments. A review of the DNP projects completed by students and posted on the university's web site include such topics as nurse retention, faculty retention, international studies, and reimbursement for nurse practitioners. University of Kentucky's (2005) DNP program prepares expert clinical nurse leaders to change direct care practice or health care systems. Graduates are prepared as experts in designing, implementing, managing, and evaluating health care delivery systems.


Confusion is created when there is one degree proposed for varied outcomes and the functional role is not well articulated. Role refers to a constellation of functions for which an individual is responsible – educator, administrator, clinical nurse specialist, and so forth – and role preparation occurs in an academic setting where an individual learns to perform the circumscribed role functions. Educational preparation for each role is accomplished through completion of a distinct curriculum that prepares graduates to function in the scope of practice of the role.



Curricular content is determined by professional associations who represent experts in the role (Fulton, 2005). As in the situation at the University of Tennessee (2005), what role competencies will a DNP graduate with a gerontology focus have, nurse practitioner or clinical nurse specialist? Is forensic nursing a functional role with distinct competencies or a specialty practice in the functional role of nurse practitioner, clinical nurse specialist, or nursing administrator? The lack of professional role competencies for the DNP focus areas suggests a lack of buy-in by professional nursing organizations.


In contrast to the clinical, administration/management, and systems focus of the programs at Tennessee, Rush, and Kentucky, the Doctorate of Practice of Nursing (DrNP) at Columbia University School of Nursing (n.d., a; 2005) prepares nurse practitioners for expanding practice in primary care medicine and independently diagnosing and treating disease to fill an anticipated gap in primary care physician services. Milton (2005) questioned this practice focus with content related to medical pathophysiology, algorithms for disease management, assessment for the purpose of diagnosis and treatment of disease, and pharmacology courses with a list of medications to be learned for the purpose of prescriptive authority, and asked, "What makes this degree nursing?"


The focus on disease management suggests the proposed new practice doctorate is not adequately grounded in the science of nursing. To develop a terminal degree in nursing which lacks emphasis on the discipline's philosophical framework and theories halts the progression and evolution of the science (Whall, 2005). Will the graduates of this program assume the practice values and skills of other disciplines, especially medicine? NPs argue that they do not practice medicine. However, when a premier doctorate of practice of nursing program for nurse practitioners advertises that it prepares nurses in the practice of primary care medicine, to independently diagnose and treat disease for the purpose of filling an anticipated gap in primary care physician services, it's hard to argue this is not doing the work of medicine. As further evidence that this NP program prepares graduates to work as physician substitutes, the Columbia School of Nursing Website states that "nurse practitioners are demonstrating that they are able to complement and even substitute for physicians in caring for stable inpatients" (Columbia University, n.d, b, para 9). In addition, the website notes that:
Because of substantial cuts in reimbursements, teaching hospitals are contemplating significant cuts in residency staffs. But who will provide the care now delivered by these physicians? Many in nursing contend that nurse practitioners are ideal replacements. They can perform most of the first-year resident's tasks under physician supervision, while incurring one-half the cost in salary and malpractice insurance. (Columbia University, n.d, b, para 9)​
This statement implies that nursing is willing to do physician work for less money and that nursing is using its education resources to address the problem of physician residencies and to save hospitals money. While nurses are busy substituting for physicians and subsidizing medicine, who is substituting for and reimbursing nursing in our current nursing shortage of crisis proportions?


NP programs have grown in academic credit because they are adding to a nursing curriculum the fundamentals of medical practice. To educate nurses as providers of medical care – to attain competencies in another discipline – more content, hence more academic credit is needed, well beyond the typical 40ish academic credits of a master's program that builds on the competencies of the discipline's baccalaureate education. On the other hand, when the focus of the practice is nursing at an advanced level – nursing practice built on baccalaureate competencies and focusing on expanding nursing knowledge based on nursing science - a more traditional 42 credit hour (semester) graduate program is adequate. Is nursing conflicted and confounded about the focus of our doctoral programs because we have avoided what is likely a painful and contentious conversation about the focus of our master's programs – particularly the advanced practice nursing options of clinical nurse specialist, nurse practitioner, nurse anesthetist, and nurse midwife.


Columbia University awards a Doctorate of Practice of Nursing with the credential DrNP, however, Drexal University developed a Doctorate of Nursing Practice and uses DrNP; same credential, with different meanings. In addition, Drexal has not limited its degree to clinical practice or the nurse practitioner role. Drexal's program offers four tracks under the DrNP: Clinical Scholar in Advanced Nursing Practice, Clinical Scholar in Nursing Education, Clinical Scholar in Nursing and Health Research, and Clinical Scholar in Nursing Leadership and Healthcare Management. Is the clinical scholar in nursing and health research a research-focused track? The Drexal DrNP curriculum includes courses in philosophy of science, the structure of scientific knowledge in nursing, epidemiology and biostatistics, quantitative methods, and qualitative methods. Is this not the drift toward research that occurred among DNS programs?


NONPF implies that knowledge and competencies gained from a PhD program are not necessary to "create, implement, and evaluate practice interventions, health delivery systems, and clinical teaching" (NONPF, 2003, recommendation 4) in stating:
The research emphasis in a nursing practice doctorate program differs from a traditional PhD program. Rather than preparing nurse scientists for research careers, this program shall prepare graduates to use research knowledge and methods to create, implement, and evaluate practice interventions, health delivery systems, and clinical teaching. As well, this program prepares graduates to assume a key role in establishing national practice guidelines and conducting clinical trials" (NONPF, recommendation 4).​
The notion that PhD programs are not necessary for effective practice raises questions about the nature of research and inquiry in a practice discipline. First, should PhD programs, with all inherent resources, be reserved for only those nurses who wish to become nurse researchers/scientists (Fitzpatrick, 1989)? That is, is the degree not appropriate or useful for nurses who intend to: (a) improve their own practice; (b) change clinical practice; (c) improve teaching; and/or (d) improve executive nursing administration? Second, are the theory development and testing competencies gained through a PhD too limited for disciplined inquiry in the practice setting such that program evaluation research is not a legitimate type of research to include in PhD programs? Third, while PhD programs in nursing are expected to be congruent with the gold standard of research-intensive preparation, with well-funded faculty mentors who have research intensive careers, is this model of PhD education in nursing not the most appropriate for the preparation of nurse scholars who desire non-academic careers such as administration (Edwardson, 2004)? We believe that PhD programs can and do prepare nurse scientists for clinical settings and health care administration as well as academia.
 
Again, the DNP does NOT change the scope of practice for an NP. Just makes the profession more professional, like physical therapists and their DPT and pharmacists with their pharmD. Please read the entire thread. And again, the online program that you spoke of was for people who already had their MSN, along with the fact that it's very hotly contested in the nursing world, in any case.

fab4fan, there are the direct-entry APNI programs, but they are generally ONLY for family nurse practitioner, and not anything else. Do I agree with those? No, not particularly. As for CRNAs, the person has 4 years of a BSN, 2 years of RN experience, and 3 years to get their CRNA. To be fair, clinical components aren't until the 3rd year of your BSN, so figure 7 years of practice. I think that's adequate for minimum competency (key word: minimum). And have you researched getting into CRNA programs? There's no way in hell (or at least on this side of the coast), that you get in with just 2 years experience. They say that, but there're waiting lists longer than a woman's line to go to the bathroom during a ballgame.

some one could graduate with an ASN --> get an on-line BSN, MSN and now a DNP???

If there is no scope of practice change (though this has not been expressed by the leadership) then why get the degree? The WHOLE point of the DNP is to "legitimize" the scope creep and inroads in to a specialty as demonstrated by CNRA's...

As for PA's - they work with physicians and do not advocate "independent practice" rights nor have on-line degree programs - so not a very valid arguement....

As an RN - I have worked with nurses who have attended on-line programs and also had some serious deficits in basic nursing. So a BSN is not the foundation one may think it is for advanced degrees that practice medicine. Remember, nursing degrees teach people to be nurses which is VERY different than medicine.
 
some one could graduate with an ASN --> get an on-line BSN, MSN and now a DNP???

If there is no scope of practice change (though this has not been expressed by the leadership) then why get the degree? The WHOLE point of the DNP is to "legitimize" the scope creep and inroads in to a specialty as demonstrated by CNRA's...

As for PA's - they work with physicians and do not advocate "independent practice" rights nor have on-line degree programs - so not a very valid arguement....

As an RN - I have worked with nurses who have attended on-line programs and also had some serious deficits in basic nursing. So a BSN is not the foundation one may think it is for advanced degrees that practice medicine. Remember, nursing degrees teach people to be nurses which is VERY different than medicine.

perhaps maybe you could shed some light into your proof/statistics for this? for everyone i've trained with/schooled with/worked with, i have yet to hear ONE person bring this up, let alone want this. this whole push came from above, despite the pouring outcry from CRNAs already. believe me, the popularity of this DNP is much by the curb side here. essentially, this whole argument of who wants what, basically comes from the very select few who are pushing for this, and if you do some research, you'll find that practicing CRNAs are no where near the top of the list with eagerness.
 
perhaps maybe you could shed some light into your proof/statistics for this? for everyone i've trained with/schooled with/worked with, i have yet to hear ONE person bring this up, let alone want this. this whole push came from above, despite the pouring outcry from CRNAs already. believe me, the popularity of this DNP is much by the curb side here. essentially, this whole argument of who wants what, basically comes from the very select few who are pushing for this, and if you do some research, you'll find that practicing CRNAs are no where near the top of the list with eagerness.


My point about CRNA's revolve around there inroads into anesthesia and "independent practice" this began with political moves to legitimize the practice and safety. After that, they began pushing for pain mgt procedures such as fluoroscopey which was denied by a LA State court. I bet this will not be the last time we hear from the CRNA's about scope expansion...

That is what I was referring to, and it appears to ME that the DNP's are using the same tactics to increase their scope of practice. The DNP is being touted as a CLINICAL degree and would be unnecessary if they were not looking to increase their scope of practice IMO.
 
It's very frustrating when people don't read posts in threads or construe lines to mean something else obviously differently intended.

I'm afraid that I'll have to agree to disagree and let that be the end of it :shrug:. I'm studying for my boards right now and have little time for other stuff.

Thank you for your time, and yes, I'll go back to allnurses :laugh:

In all seriousness, though, best of luck to everyone along their career path, whether they are already there or are progressing on their way.
 
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My point about CRNA's revolve around there inroads into anesthesia and "independent practice" this began with political moves to legitimize the practice and safety. After that, they began pushing for pain mgt procedures such as fluoroscopey which was denied by a LA State court. I bet this will not be the last time we hear from the CRNA's about scope expansion...

That is what I was referring to, and it appears to ME that the DNP's are using the same tactics to increase their scope of practice. The DNP is being touted as a CLINICAL degree and would be unnecessary if they were not looking to increase their scope of practice IMO.

fine.
but i can tell you, again, to everyone as well, CRNAs are NOT pushing for advanced degree. to say otherwise is uninformed.
as for mundinger, she is NOT a CRNA and does NOT speak (nor represent well) for CRNAs.
as for the DNP, you are correct, it is NOT a clinical doctorate, no matter who says what.
period.
 
If you want to take a history class, go ahead and take it online.

But you don't learn to do clinical medicine online. Period.

I'm brand new to this forum and came across this thread. I'm trying to start a new thread about "online NP education," - I'm just now finding my way around this forum. This topic has created quite a fire storm over on the "allnurses" forum.

I agree 100% that NP programs should not be done online. I have 3 certifications and I attended traditional schools. I started out taking classes online, but decided there was NO WAY that would prepare me to become a competent NP. I spent close to 1,800 clinical hours completing those 3 certifications and I now have 3 years of primary care and ER experience. I'm still overwhelmed by what I see every time I walk into work.

To think that every RN in this country will end up with "NP" after his/her name b/c they attended some online FNP program and completed 500 clinical hours is absolutely ridiculous. I understand they still have to complete clinical hours with a preceptor, but I'm here to tell you that isn't even being monitored.

The public should be afraid and I mean VERY AFRAID of what these online NP programs are dumping on the market. OUR PROFESSION IS BEING TRASHED!!!
 
This topic has created quite a fire storm over on the "allnurses" forum.

It hasn't created a firestorm. People are just trying to figure out what tree you fell from.

The public should be afraid and I mean VERY AFRAID of what these online NP programs are dumping on the market. OUR PROFESSION IS BEING TRASHED!!!

You are trying to generalize from one program in your area. Even though I know a "brick and mortar" physician graduate from Texas who probably did her residency at your hospital, doesn't mean that I'd generalize her horrible performance to all Texas schools.

It is probably safe to say that most here on SDN have no experience in educational practice or theory and, as you do, have only an opinion. I'll even bet most medical school professors never had a class in how to teach.

The bottom line is that there are good and bad schools, both traditional and online, and good and bad graduates of each. You might even be aware that the traditional schools are the ones offering distance education courses.

So again I'll give you something to assist with your lack of knowledge:


Differences Between Traditional and Distance Education Academic Performances: A Meta-Analytic Approach
Mickey Shachar, Yoram Neumann

Abstract

This meta-analysis research estimated and compared the differences between the academic performance of students enrolled in distance education courses relative to those enrolled in traditional settings, as demonstrated by their final course grades/ scores within the 1990-2002 period.

Eighty-six experimental and quasi-experimental studies met the established inclusion criteria for the meta-analysis (including data from over 15,000 participating students), and provided effect sizes, clearly demonstrating that: (1) in two thirds of the cases, students taking courses by distance education outperformed their student counterparts enrolled in traditionally instructed courses; (2) the overall effect size d+ was calculated as 0.37 standard deviation units (0.33 < 95% confidence interval < 0.40); and (3) this effect size of 0.37 indicates the mean percentile standing of the DE group is at the 65th percentile of the traditional group (mean defined as the 50th percentile).


Distance Education at a Glance

http://www.uiweb.uidaho.edu/eo/dist9.html#distance vs

Canadian Institute of Distance Education Research

http://cider.athabascau.ca/

Center for Distance Learning Research

http://www.cdlr.tamu.edu/

Some Journals (from hundreds)

American Journal of Distance Education
http://www.ajde.com/

Chronicle of Higher Education
http://chronicle.com/

Continuing Higher Education Review
http://www.ucea.edu/publications02.htm

DEOSNEWS
http://www.ed.psu.edu/acsde/deos/deosnews/deosnews.asp

International Review of Research in Open and Distance Learning
http://www.irrodl.org/

Journal of Asynchronous Learning Networks (JALN)
http://www.aln.org/publications/jaln/index.asp

Journal of Continuing Higher Education
http://www.acheinc.org/publicat.html#journal

Journal of Distance Education
http://www.cade-aced.ca/en_pub.php

Online Journal of Distance Learning Administration
http://www.westga.edu/~distance/jmain11.html

Quarterly Review of Distance Education
http://www.aect.org/Publications/qrde.htm

More:

A Brief History of Distance Learning
http://www.pbs.org/als/dlweek/history/index.html

Advanced Distributed Learning Network (ADLNet)
http://www.adlnet.org/

American Center for the Study of Distance Education (ACSDE)
http://www.ed.psu.edu/acsde/

Distance Learning in Higher Education
http://www.chea.org/Commentary/

International Centre for Distance Learning (ICDL)
http://www-icdl.open.ac.uk/

International Society for Technology in Education (ISTE) Research and Evaluation
http://www.iste.org/research/reports/index.cfm

Issues in Distance Learning
http://carbon.cudenver.edu/~lsherry/pubs/issues.html

National Center for Education Statistics (NCES)
http://nces.ed.gov/

The "No Significant Difference Phenomenon"
http://teleeducation.nb.ca/nosignificantdifference/

Pew Internet & American Life
http://www.pewinternet.org/reports/index.asp
 
I'm brand new to this forum and came across this thread. I'm trying to start a new thread about "online NP education," - I'm just now finding my way around this forum. This topic has created quite a fire storm over on the "allnurses" forum.

I agree 100% that NP programs should not be done online. I have 3 certifications and I attended traditional schools. I started out taking classes online, but decided there was NO WAY that would prepare me to become a competent NP. I spent close to 1,800 clinical hours completing those 3 certifications and I now have 3 years of primary care and ER experience. I'm still overwhelmed by what I see every time I walk into work.

To think that every RN in this country will end up with "NP" after his/her name b/c they attended some online FNP program and completed 500 clinical hours is absolutely ridiculous. I understand they still have to complete clinical hours with a preceptor, but I'm here to tell you that isn't even being monitored.

The public should be afraid and I mean VERY AFRAID of what these online NP programs are dumping on the market. OUR PROFESSION IS BEING TRASHED!!!
I understand your view....I feel the same way when it comes to healthcare education.
 
I'm brand new to this forum and came across this thread. I'm trying to start a new thread about "online NP education," - I'm just now finding my way around this forum. This topic has created quite a fire storm over on the "allnurses" forum.

I agree 100% that NP programs should not be done online. I have 3 certifications and I attended traditional schools. I started out taking classes online, but decided there was NO WAY that would prepare me to become a competent NP. I spent close to 1,800 clinical hours completing those 3 certifications and I now have 3 years of primary care and ER experience. I'm still overwhelmed by what I see every time I walk into work.

To think that every RN in this country will end up with "NP" after his/her name b/c they attended some online FNP program and completed 500 clinical hours is absolutely ridiculous. I understand they still have to complete clinical hours with a preceptor, but I'm here to tell you that isn't even being monitored.

The public should be afraid and I mean VERY AFRAID of what these online NP programs are dumping on the market. OUR PROFESSION IS BEING TRASHED!!!

You would get better responses from physicians and physicians-in-training if you post this question in one of the frequently visited medical forums.

Based on the feedback I get when physicians learn that many existing DNP programs have a significant online component, the first response is shock and then later ridicule. What's signficiant? A student who only visits a campus 2-3 times a semester during the weekends and rest of the time is online. If more physicians realize just how large the online component is, there would be a definite shift away from NP's to PA's.

As a physician, you can't get licensed in this country if a significant chunk of your training was online, even during the pre-clinical years. Carib MD programs have tried this -- to maximize profits with bigger class sizes without having to hire more teachers -- and none of the states I have seen would license their grads. During my medical school, we had some online stuff here and there, but nothing that would be called a significant portion of our training.

Because as physicians, NP's, or PA's, you'll be interacting with patients and other health care professionals, most physicians would look down upon online NP programs. You can't learn how to be a good clinician if the majority of the time is reading about it online. Otherwise, everyone who reads WebMD and googles health care topics would be a clinician.
 
It hasn't created a firestorm. People are just trying to figure out what tree you fell from.



You are trying to generalize from one program in your area. Even though I know a "brick and mortar" physician graduate from Texas who probably did her residency at your hospital, doesn't mean that I'd generalize her horrible performance to all Texas schools.

It is probably safe to say that most here on SDN have no experience in educational practice or theory and, as you do, have only an opinion. I'll even bet most medical school professors never had a class in how to teach.

The bottom line is that there are good and bad schools, both traditional and online, and good and bad graduates of each. You might even be aware that the traditional schools are the ones offering distance education courses.

So again I'll give you something to assist with your lack of knowledge:


Differences Between Traditional and Distance Education Academic Performances: A Meta-Analytic Approach
Mickey Shachar, Yoram Neumann

Abstract

This meta-analysis research estimated and compared the differences between the academic performance of students enrolled in distance education courses relative to those enrolled in traditional settings, as demonstrated by their final course grades/ scores within the 1990-2002 period.

Eighty-six experimental and quasi-experimental studies met the established inclusion criteria for the meta-analysis (including data from over 15,000 participating students), and provided effect sizes, clearly demonstrating that: (1) in two thirds of the cases, students taking courses by distance education outperformed their student counterparts enrolled in traditionally instructed courses; (2) the overall effect size d+ was calculated as 0.37 standard deviation units (0.33 < 95% confidence interval < 0.40); and (3) this effect size of 0.37 indicates the mean percentile standing of the DE group is at the 65th percentile of the traditional group (mean defined as the 50th percentile).

Gee you quote some study and that must make it true....in the details did it compare course content, how was outperformed measured? by a standardized exam or by grades? Since grade inflation is only a myth then it must have been by some standardized exam such as the NP licensing exam. riddle me this. What is the pass rate for first time test takers between those stodgy old brick and mortars and those new fangled online courses?

I know it is hard for you to accept but there is a huge difference between that Vanderbilt NP graduate and University of Phoenix graduate (IMO).....

I have no studies to cherry pick and impress the vast readership with.....


Oldman
 
Gee you quote some study and that must make it true....in the details did it compare course content, how was outperformed measured? by a standardized exam or by grades? Since grade inflation is only a myth then it must have been by some standardized exam such as the NP licensing exam. riddle me this. What is the pass rate for first time test takers between those stodgy old brick and mortars and those new fangled online courses?

I know it is hard for you to accept but there is a huge difference between that Vanderbilt NP graduate and University of Phoenix graduate (IMO).....

I have no studies to cherry pick and impress the vast readership with.....


Oldman

Oh, I know that Phoenix is a diploma mill! I have no great emotional attachment to this debate, just calling out those who generalize to the entire world. Many schools that offer distance education are the same ones that also offer brick and mortar education. I guess they just suddenly took a nosedive in educational status.

I'm also calling out those who say there is no research on distance education yet are so lame they can't spend a few moments to see how ignorant they are. And yes, you probably already know that I think most research is flawed, but when you say you do EBM, then I'll throw some research at ya.
 
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