What happens if you have a PharmD, are 200k+ in debt, and not licensed?

[mentos]

Mods, please do not move this to the hidden forum. I am NOT discussing the pharmacy job market since this group is not even eligible to enter its workforce.

As the title says, what happens if you have a PharmD, 200k+ nondischargeable student loan debt, and can't pass the boards? A large percentage of graduates from diploma mills like Chapman and CSHU did not pass the NAPLEX. What are they going to do, how will they survive?

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[PharmDminus]

Mods, please do not move this to the hidden forum. I am NOT discussing the pharmacy job market since this group is not even eligible to enter its workforce.

As the title says, what happens if you have a PharmD, 200k+ nondischargeable student loan debt, and can't pass the boards? A large percentage of graduates from diploma mills like Chapman and CSHU did not pass the NAPLEX. What are they going to do, how will they survive?

IBR

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Real answer...move to another country where the US Treasury can't get you.

 

[Lubeckd]

Change fields

 

[projektreverb]

I know a few people in similar situation. Either didn’t pass the mpje, or simply couldn’t find a job post graduation. I have no idea what they are doing for their loans.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I know a few people in similar situation. Either didn’t pass the mpje, or simply couldn’t find a job post graduation. I have no idea what they are doing for their loans.

I know a few people with no jobs post-residency. They come from rich families so they are just living at home — with regards to what their plan is, I have no idea.

 

[APN-59 rph]

What happens? The real world beats up on you..THAT's what....Get a job doing something.....if you got thru Phcy school you must have some smarts...Start asking around at outfits that seem to pay more than minimum....work two jobs..join the Army...Trade unions are begging for apprentices...start making payments...drive a junker...live doubled up in a hut.....You can squirm out of this....The big loan system will have to adjust soon...it will have no choice...and really..other than good pay..flogging pills honks pretty bad...Soo as they say "suck it up buttercup" You could be getting shot at in the 'stan....

 

[Lubeckd]

I know a few people in similar situation. Either didn’t pass the mpje, or simply couldn’t find a job post graduation. I have no idea what they are doing for their loans.

I know one who didn't pass Naplex either

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

if you got thru Phcy school you must have some smarts...Start asking around at outfits that seem to pay more than minimum

Disagree. The implication of pharmacy schools being willing to admit any pre-pharm who has a pulse and can take out $200k in loans is that there are many students who should be working minimum wage jobs and have no business being in pharmacy school who now think they deserve a lot more. For these students who now think that they are in the “elite” because they have a DOCTORATE degree (which we all know is worth toilet paper nowadays), they need to lay down their pride and entitlement and know their place — but they won’t believe it nor admit it. This is why the dilution of diploma mill grads into the greater job market is what is ruining this profession.

 

[Lubeckd]

I know a few people with no jobs post-residency. They come from rich families so they are just living at home — with regards to what their plan is, I have no idea.

one became a professor, the other one is in a different field after a year.

 

[projektreverb]

I know one who didn't pass Naplex either

Yeah it’s wild to me that you’d go to school for this long and be ok with being unemployed. I really didn’t think the Naplex was too challenging. If you honestly studied in school you can pull it off with brushing up.

In regards to the other poster who said you have to be smart to make it into and thru pharm school. That’s a lie. I know quite a few students that I believe are a hazard to their patients. And they were smart on paper. The school of real life is very different from actual school.

 

[Lubeckd]

Yeah it’s wild to me that you’d go to school for this long and be ok with being unemployed. I really didn’t think the Naplex was too challenging. If you honestly studied in school you can pull it off with brushing up.

In regards to the other poster who said you have to be smart to make it into and thru pharm school. That’s a lie. I know quite a few students that I believe are a hazard to their patients. And they were smart on paper. The school of real life is very different from actual school.

I know girls who like a guy that looks good on paper

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Mods, please do not move this to the hidden forum. I am NOT discussing the pharmacy job market since this group is not even eligible to enter its workforce.

As the title says, what happens if you have a PharmD, 200k+ nondischargeable student loan debt, and can't pass the boards? A large percentage of graduates from diploma mills like Chapman and CSHU did not pass the NAPLEX. What are they going to do, how will they survive?

I think you can take the naplex 5 times? Havent heard about anyone not being able to pass after 5 tries. I know someone that passed on the fifth try. But considering the level of competence in these new schools, one can assume that well start to have those people that cant pass. This is when schools realized they messed up and im sure there will be ton of lawsuits lol

As far as loans, if you choose income driven payment and you have no income, i guess you dont have to pay? Haha

Im starting to hear about so many people not finding a job after residency. A few that just finished couldnt find anything. There is one thats been looking for almost a year now... kinda sad. She refuses to take a retail job but im sure she will eventually have to haha

 

[mentos]

I think you can take the naplex 5 times? Havent heard about anyone not being able to pass after 5 tries. I know someone that passed on the fifth try. But considering the level of competence in these new schools, one can assume that well start to have those people that cant pass. This is when schools realized they messed up and im sure there will be ton of lawsuits lol

As far as loans, if you choose income driven payment and you have no income, i guess you dont have to pay? Haha

Im starting to hear about so many people not finding a job after residency. A few that just finished couldnt find anything. There is one thats been looking for almost a year now... kinda sad. She refuses to take a retail job but im sure she will eventually have to haha

You think students will try to sue the schools if they cannot pass the boards? The schools gave them their degree, they did not guarantee anything beyond that.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I still don't understand how people that just went through years of intensive training and education can't pass a very, VERY minimum competency test like the NAPLEX. My grades were complete ****, I probably was in the lower half of my class...yet I studied for maybe a week for a few hours a day and destroyed the thing. Did they make actual pharmacy school easier? I recall my standard, regular issue pharmacology or pathophys/therapeutics finals being much more of a brain-destroying-hellscape than the NAPLEX. How do they pass those demon classes and not pass the laughable "what color is warfarin 5mg" test.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

You think students will try to sue the schools if they cannot pass the boards? The schools gave them their degree, they did not guarantee anything beyond that.

Yes, a logical person would think that. Haha but there are people who think nepotism could somehow get you the best job in an ultra saturated market so... yeah who knows lol

 

[AM77]

Even if new pharmacy grads want to sue their own school for not being able to land a job, new diploma mill schools such as CHSU already have lawyers lined up.
As for residents who can’t find hospital jobs or pharmacists who think they’re too good for retail, they’ll be unemployed for as long as they can’t find a job.

 

[297point1]

As for residents who can’t find hospital jobs or pharmacists who think they’re too good for retail, they’ll be unemployed for as long as they can’t find a job.

The chains aren't interested in hiring anyone who has done a hospital PGY1 residency for the simple fact that they know these folks will jump at the first hospital job they land. Today's grads who do a PGY1 hospital residency can cross CVS, Wags, Rite Aid, and Walmart off of their potential future employers list.

 

[Lubeckd]

The chains aren't interested in hiring anyone who has done a hospital PGY1 residency for the simple fact that they know these folks will jump at the first hospital job they land. Today's grads who do a PGY1 hospital residency can cross CVS, Wags, Rite Aid, and Walmart off of their potential future employers list.

My old boss didnt want to hire a resident . Just book smarts, not business smarts he says. knows nothing about running a pharmacy

 

[projektreverb]

My old boss didnt want to hire a resident . Just book smarts, not business smarts he says. knows nothing about running a pharmacy

BuT rEsIdEnCy. Listen no doubt it opens doors. Some graduated residents also need to get over themselves and realize that retail dollars are just as green as anyone else’s. And it beats nothing.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I still don't understand how people that just went through years of intensive training and education can't pass a very, VERY minimum competency test like the NAPLEX. My grades were complete ****, I probably was in the lower half of my class...yet I studied for maybe a week for a few hours a day and destroyed the thing. Did they make actual pharmacy school easier? I recall my standard, regular issue pharmacology or pathophys/therapeutics finals being much more of a brain-destroying-hellscape than the NAPLEX. How do they can pass those demon classes and not pass the laughable "what color is warfarin 5mg" test.

Bro this is 2019. Most new grads don’t have work experience to reinforce any of their learning from classes. Paid internships are going away. The influx of more APPE students to rotation sites in all settings from the new diploma mills takes away from any opportunity for P1-P3’s to shadow, volunteer etc. Schools have petitioned to get rid of the intern hour requirement/work experience needed to be eligible to sit for boards, claiming that APPE experience is enough.

Add all these factors up and yes, it is not unreasonable that most new grads won’t know what the color of warfarin is.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

I still don't understand how people that just went through years of intensive training and education can't pass a very, VERY minimum competency test like the NAPLEX. My grades were complete ****, I probably was in the lower half of my class...yet I studied for maybe a week for a few hours a day and destroyed the thing. Did they make actual pharmacy school easier? I recall my standard, regular issue pharmacology or pathophys/therapeutics finals being much more of a brain-destroying-hellscape than the NAPLEX. How do they can pass those demon classes and not pass the laughable "what color is warfarin 5mg" test.

Well i know some people were going through tough times while studying for boards their first time. Like mom passing away or going through a nasty divorce. So i would understand if you have to take it twice but failing it 5 times, you need to find another career lol

 

[Saiyo]

I worked with someone that never took their boards due to family reasons and became a career tech.

 

[RxPreceptor]

I still don't understand how people that just went through years of intensive training and education can't pass a very, VERY minimum competency test like the NAPLEX. My grades were complete ****, I probably was in the lower half of my class...yet I studied for maybe a week for a few hours a day and destroyed the thing. Did they make actual pharmacy school easier? I recall my standard, regular issue pharmacology or pathophys/therapeutics finals being much more of a brain-destroying-hellscape than the NAPLEX. How do they can pass those demon classes and not pass the laughable "what color is warfarin 5mg" test.

To this day, I still quote the warfarin color strength question when talking with interns...what a joke of a question (in all seriousness, just done for safety/uniformity reasons).
The @-hole version of the question: what color is warfarin 5mg?
A) Orange B) Salmon C) Peach D) Clementine E) All of the Above

 

[BidingMyTime]

I worked with someone that never took their boards due to family reasons and became a career tech.

What kind of family reasons would prevent someone from *ever* taking their boards??? That makes no sense, they probably flunked and just didn't want to tell you.

To this day, I still quote the warfarin color strength question when talking with interns...what a joke of a question (in all seriousness, just done for safety/uniformity reasons).
The @-hole version of the question: what color is warfarin 5mg?
A) Orange B) Salmon C) Peach D) Clementine E) All of the Above

Before I took the NABPLEX (Back when it was a NABPLEX and not a NAPLEX), everyone warned me about colors of pills being on the test, especially digoxin (which everybody took at that time, it was more popular than Prozac.) But I had no questions about the color of pills on my test. I think color of pills on test is just an ancient rumor.

I still don't understand how people that just went through years of intensive training and education can't pass a very, VERY minimum competency test like the NAPLEX. My grades were complete ****, I probably was in the lower half of my class...yet I studied for maybe a week for a few hours a day and destroyed the thing. Did they make actual pharmacy school easier? I recall my standard, regular issue pharmacology or pathophys/therapeutics finals being much more of a brain-destroying-hellscape than the NAPLEX. How do they pass those demon classes and not pass the laughable "what color is warfarin 5mg" test.

But this. If someone graduated pharmacy school and can't pass the NAPLEX, then their school has utterly failed them. Their school is either 1) very dumbed down just to keep up their graduation rates for people who should have never been admitted or 2) have extreme grade inflation or take bribes of money/sex to pass students.

 

[RxPreceptor]

To this day, I still quote the warfarin color strength question when talking with interns...what a joke of a question (in all seriousness, just done for safety/uniformity reasons).
The @-hole version of the question: what color is warfarin 5mg?
A) Orange B) Salmon C) Peach D) Clementine E) All of the Above

What kind of family reasons would prevent someone from *ever* taking their boards??? That makes no sense, they probably flunked and just didn't want to tell you.



Before I took the NABPLEX (Back when it was a NABPLEX and not a NAPLEX), everyone warned me about colors of pills being on the test, especially digoxin (which everybody took at that time, it was more popular than Prozac.) But I had no questions about the color of pills on my test. I think color of pills on test is just an ancient rumor.



But this. If someone graduated pharmacy school and can't pass the NAPLEX, then their school has utterly failed them. Their school is either 1) very dumbed down just to keep up their graduation rates for people who should have never been admitted or 2) have extreme grade inflation or take bribes of money/sex to pass students.

Did not get any what color is drug X questions on the NAPLEX but still do own the APhA test guide book with the test question samples having the what color is warfarin question

 

[AM77]

The sad reality is that the newer schools that just opened up (especially the ones where their first graduating class is 2018) have been accepting subpar students just to fill up seats.

 

[OmiPharmD]

I was warned about the warfarin color question and I did have it.
Mine was green! I just assumed everyone got it. I'm really surprised.

 

[deleted562805]

Even if new pharmacy grads want to sue their own school for not being able to land a job, new diploma mill schools such as CHSU already have lawyers lined up.
As for residents who can’t find hospital jobs or pharmacists who think they’re too good for retail, they’ll be unemployed for as long as they can’t find a job.

Thats why they have to do PGY-2.

 

[deleted562805]

I know a few people with no jobs post-residency. They come from rich families so they are just living at home — with regards to what their plan is, I have no idea.

did these people do a PGY-2, too. dang. that sucks.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Thats why they have to do PGY-2.

Naw dawg. Pgy3 is where its at. You do pgy3, you golden.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

did these people do a PGY-2, too. dang. that sucks.

PGY-1. Though I wouldn’t be surprised if there are many PGY-2 unemployed as you specialize yourself out of a role most of the time, unless you get lucky.

 

[projektreverb]

Naw dawg. Pgy3 is where its at. You do pgy3, you golden.

Nah fam, you need a PGY-40 to get a job nowadays! Oh wait, at PGY-40 you’re already retired.

 

[Lubeckd]

Nah fam, you need a PGY-40 to get a job nowadays! Oh wait, at PGY-40 you’re already retired.

May as well be a doctor

 

[Lubeckd]

Very glad people don't worship residency here anymore

 

[PharmtoCS]

Nah fam, you need a PGY-40 to get a job nowadays! Oh wait, at PGY-40 you’re already retired.

It's a backdoor way to lower pharmacist wages to $40k/year.

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

Nah fam, you need a PGY-40 to get a job nowadays! Oh wait, at PGY-40 you’re already retired.

You dead by then which works out perfectly since they cant get yo loan no mo and you can write on your grave, “da best pharmacist ever! 40 years of residency!”

 

[SoylentGreen]

Disagree. The implication of pharmacy schools being willing to admit any pre-pharm who has a pulse and can take out $200k in loans is that there are many students who should be working minimum wage jobs and have no business being in pharmacy school who now think they deserve a lot more. For these students who now think that they are in the “elite” because they have a DOCTORATE degree (which we all know is worth toilet paper nowadays), they need to lay down their pride and entitlement and know their place — but they won’t believe it nor admit it. This is why the dilution of diploma mill grads into the greater job market is what is ruining this profession.

Agreed. I hired a tech (no experience) who had a biochem degree with decent grads. He was a complete idiot who couldn't handle the simplest tasks in the pharmacy and was unreliable to boot. He ended up transferring to the front end of the store to stock shelves or something. But he would have easily been admitted to pharmacy school. Scary to think these are our future colleagues (or maybe present colleagues for some of you - no newish grads at my store).

 

[mentos]

I'm surprised PGY-1 in community pharmacy isn't required for retail by now.

 

[projektreverb]

I'm surprised PGY-1 in community pharmacy isn't required for retail by now.

It will be. I’m calling it now: PGY-1 in community pharmacy to practice in the middle of nowhere, PGY-2 in community pharmacy to practice in a major metro area. PGY-3 and 4 to practice in a hospital.

 

[Lubeckd]

I'm surprised PGY-1 in community pharmacy isn't required for retail by now.

we should add it. People love residency a lot

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

we should add it. People love residency a lot

brah…. that's a $80k loss for reason... seems like a good idea, let's get it.

 

[AM77]

Agreed. I hired a tech (no experience) who had a biochem degree with decent grads. He was a complete idiot who couldn't handle the simplest tasks in the pharmacy and was unreliable to boot. He ended up transferring to the front end of the store to stock shelves or something. But he would have easily been admitted to pharmacy school. Scary to think these are our future colleagues (or maybe present colleagues for some of you - no newish grads at my store).

You want to know what’s scary? Starting in 2016, the California Board of Pharmacy cancelled the 1500 hours Pharmacy intern requirement for all new pharmacist license applicants. Yup. You heard it. CANCELLED. Thanks to all the new schools that opened up and bullied the BoP to remove the requirement only because their students had so much trouble trying to find intern hours. So guess what? California is actually licensing pharmacists with NO practical pharmacy work experience! What a way to cheapen the value of our profession. I hope other states don’t do the same.

 

[projektreverb]

brah…. that's a $80k loss for reason... seems like a good idea, let's get it.

Chains would love it. Saving 80k per employee annually and you get a pharmacist. Think about how much they would save. I’m surprised it isn’t already a thing.

 

[Lubeckd]

Chains would love it. Saving 80k per employee annually and you get a pharmacist. Think about how much they would save. I’m surprised it isn’t already a thing.

pharmacy extends from 3 to year 4, then 5 years then 6 year. now it will be 8 years
then 2-4 years of residency = 12 years like doctor~

 

[mentos]

You want to know what’s scary? Starting in 2016, the California Board of Pharmacy cancelled the 1500 hours Pharmacy intern requirement for all new pharmacist license applicants. Yup. You heard it. CANCELLED. Thanks to all the new schools that opened up and bullied the BoP to remove the requirement only because their students had so much trouble trying to find intern hours. So guess what? California is actually licensing pharmacists with NO practical pharmacy work experience! What a way to cheapen the value of our profession. I hope other states don’t do the same.

LoL WTF. I had friends who graduated in 2014 and were pissed that they had to work 2-3 months as interns before they were eligible to become pharmacists.

 

[AM77]

I think every pharmacist in California who was licensed before 2016 is extremely furious at the BoP’s radical move. Clearly, it goes to show that the BoP doesn’t care about the pharmacist profession. How are they going to protect the well being of consumers by handing out licenses to pharmacists who never worked a single day in an actual pharmacy setting?

 

[confettiflyer]

You want to know what’s scary? Starting in 2016, the California Board of Pharmacy cancelled the 1500 hours Pharmacy intern requirement for all new pharmacist license applicants. Yup. You heard it. CANCELLED. Thanks to all the new schools that opened up and bullied the BoP to remove the requirement only because their students had so much trouble trying to find intern hours. So guess what? California is actually licensing pharmacists with NO practical pharmacy work experience! What a way to cheapen the value of our profession. I hope other states don’t do the same.

I hated that requirement. Not because I couldn’t meet it, but because I had the added stress of requiring PA BOP sign off on intern hours and forwarding to CA BOP. Luckily, they changed it so your direct preceptor could sign the paper itself.

At least, that’s how I remember it. ::

 

[Wickett]

Chains would love it. Saving 80k per employee annually and you get a pharmacist. Think about how much they would save. I’m surprised it isn’t already a thing.

Walgreens already has a pgy-1 community pharmacy program with my former pharmacy school.....they tout is as a "clinical" track to perform non traditional roles with the company. From what I hear, the kids that completed the residency only got an expectation to become a PIC at a troubled store as soon as they finished. In a few years, watch that be the only way you can get a job in a major metro with them out of school.

 

[projektreverb]

Walgreens already has a pgy-1 community pharmacy program with my former pharmacy school.....they tout is as a "clinical" track to perform non traditional roles with the company. From what I hear, the kids that completed the residency only got an expectation to become a PIC at a troubled store as soon as they finished. In a few years, watch that be the only way you can get a job in a major metro with them out of school.

I’m surprised Walgreens hasn’t expanded their residency structure. I know that wags has a few programs so far. I know they have one with a larger, established school in the Midwest.