What have you heard about the lifestyle?

[flyinghi]

I used to read this site religiously, so spare me the basics. I just want to know what you have heard or witnessed as doctors in training...

What kinds of lifestyle do you expect 6 years from now, so in the middle of your residency? What have you heard? Is it absolute misery?

If I plan on being on the middle of the pack at a medical school, what kind of lifestyle should I expect when I am done with my residency? (I know it depends on where I match, but how about a normal field).

Recently, I heard great things about the lifestyle of doctors, working 4 days a week, private practice, decent money (200K-300K). Is that still realistic for most doctors?

How will in the flow of med school applicants affect my ability to have a okay paying secure job?

Lastly, I have no clue how much doctors make. I used to read stats on it, but its all over the place. After insurance etc, how much does a standard doctor make. Just give me a range, I know it depends on specialty and location.

My questions are centered around lifestyle and job security because I currently work in investment banking and I am not happy with it. Before spending all my free time studying for the MCATs, I would like to get a general perspective from med school students around the country.

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[Colbert]

200-300k is "decent" money to you? I don't know how much you think most doctors make, but you need some perspective.

 

[shindotp]

Average physician makes somewhere around $200k. Most are internists, and they get paid around there.
Here's a link:
http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

Over 1/3 of doctors work >60 hours. Most work around 55.
Here's a link:
http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

Most residents work hard (>60 hours a week) and get paid little (around $45k).
Here's a link:
http://www0.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html

Most doctors are satisfied with their careers, but varies drastically among specialties.
Here's a link:
http://www.gpscholar.uthscsa.edu/gpscholar/FacultyScholars/cr/genmed/library/aimvol162pg1577.pdf

 

[flyinghi]

200-300k is "decent" money to you? I don't know how much you think most doctors make, but you need some perspective.

well let me know what i should expect. i think 200k-300k is decent money for the struggles and sacrifices that i hear med students make.

you don't have to "attack" my question. i obviously don't know. also, please don't make this into a "doing medicine for the money" thread.

being in the work force and investment banking, i have a deep appreciation for work life balance. i am genuinely interested in what you have heard or know about the the hours and pay of doctors in general (i won't do ER, so you have their erratic hours covered).

 

[flyinghi]

Average physician makes somewhere around $200k. Most are hospitalists, and they get paid around there.
Here's a link:
http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

Over 1/3 of doctors work >60 hours. Most work around 55.
Here's a link:
http://www.medfriends.org/specialty_hours_worked.htm

Most residents work hard (>60 hours a week) and get paid little (around $45k).
Here's a link:
http://www0.ama-assn.org/vapp/freida/spcindx/0,,TR,00.html

Most doctors are satisfied with their careers, but varies drastically among specialties.
Here's a link:
http://www.gpscholar.uthscsa.edu/gpscholar/FacultyScholars/cr/genmed/library/aimvol162pg1577.pdf

for the compensation... lets say i take in 200k is this after malpractice insurance? how much would insurance eat away the salary?

in banking, 50% of my compensation is bonus and that gets taxed heavily... (e.g. 60k base and 60k bonus). is there a split like that in medicine?

also do doctors take their work home with them? although i only average around 75 hours a week, i take my computer home on the weekends and do 5 or 6 hours at home to catch up with reading etc.

 

[badasshairday]

well let me know what i should expect. i think 200k-300k is decent money for the struggles and sacrifices that i hear med students make.

you don't have to "attack" my question. i obviously don't know. also, please don't make this into a "doing medicine for the money" thread.

being in the work force and investment banking, i have a deep appreciation for work life balance. i am genuinely interested in what you have heard or know about the the hours and pay of doctors in general (i won't do ER, so you have their erratic hours covered).

I think it is better idea to expect 125K-250K. Sure you may be able to make more, but there is not a guarantee, especially with big shake ups in health care looming as well as the fact that the higher paying specialties being more competitive.

 

[jamo0001]

nt

 

[jamo0001]

nt

 

[flyinghi]

it is a tough decision for me to make the switch. given the fact that I don't know if i can endure 4 years med and ~4 years of residency with a really delayed pay out schedule.

i like the concept of helping someone through a scientific process, but i am also fearful of the repetitiveness of the job. i went into banking thinking every day will be something new, but it seems as if im doing the same thing day in and day out and i only started 8 months ago (recent college grad).

 

[Long Dong]

I'm down with the lifestyle: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=2395727&page=1

http://www.amazon.com/Lifestyle-Look-Erotic-Rites-Swingers/dp/1552094820

 

[Forthegood]

it is a tough decision for me to make the switch. given the fact that I don't know if i can endure 4 years med and ~4 years of residency with a really delayed pay out schedule.

i like the concept of helping someone through a scientific process, but i am also fearful of the repetitiveness of the job. i went into banking thinking every day will be something new, but it seems as if im doing the same thing day in and day out and i only started 8 months ago (recent college grad).

Sounds like you should be considering Physician's Assistant. For the time spent, lifestyle, and compensation, it is a better fit for you. You will not have to "endure med school and residency" if you really like what you are doing. Of course, it sucks and it is hard. But it's not water torture.

 

[flyinghi]

Sounds like you should be considering Physician's Assistant. For the time spent, lifestyle, and compensation, it is a better fit for you. You will not have to "endure med school and residency" if you really like what you are doing. Of course, it sucks and it is hard. But it's not water torture.

im pretty sure a PA is not for me. given that they handle general cases, and that will get quickly repetitive as it is practically cook book science. there is a certain level of scientific reasoning that is offered by a medical program is difficult to replicate with other types of schooling.

i think even normal people who love academia find many parts of medical school trying. but you maybe an exception.

 

[WellWornLad]

What kinds of lifestyle do you expect 6 years from now, so in the middle of your residency? What have you heard? Is it absolute misery?

I've met a few residents, mostly those that come to help out and teach us physical exam-type stuff. I certainly wouldn't call them miserable, but they have this air about them, like they're above everything petty. Not in an arrogant way, just in a post-traumatic "I've been through so much *(&^ that nothing phases me anymore" way. If medicine were a church, I'd say they were on a higher spiritual plane, but you know they had to wander the desert for a long time to get there.

If I plan on being on the middle of the pack at a medical school, what kind of lifestyle should I expect when I am done with my residency? (I know it depends on where I match, but how about a normal field).

Lifestyle is a very subjective thing. Define what you want out of life and then maybe we can tell you how medicine fares by that criteria. If by lifestyle you just mean money, go look up average salaries.

Recently, I heard great things about the lifestyle of doctors, working 4 days a week, private practice, decent money (200K-300K). Is that still realistic for most doctors?

Most? No. I know exactly one doctor who works 3-4 days a week (not including docs who work in the clinic half time and do something else on the side), and he is making BANK. I know at least 10 docs, however, who I can't talk to for more than 5 minutes before their beeper goes off, and whose idea of a night off is spending the evening communicating with the house staff from home.

How will in the flow of med school applicants affect my ability to have a okay paying secure job?

The "flow" of medical students is very tightly controlled by the AMA, and (more importantly) the number of residency spots in this country is also more or less static. The competition may get fiercer, but admissions don't go up and down with the unemployment rate. Health care is one of two industries that is still growing during this economic collapse (the other is education). Everybody will need a doctor at some point, and unemployment among doctors is a rare beast indeed. That's not to say you can't lose your license for doing something stupid, but I can't think of a more "secure" job than that of a physician. Sometimes I take comfort in the fact that in a post-apocalyptic world, I will still be pretty useful.

My questions are centered around lifestyle and job security because I currently work in investment banking and I am not happy with it.

Is it just the job security angle, are there other aspects of investment banking you don't enjoy?

If the only thing you like about medicine is the pay and the job security, you're going to be miserable. The pay can be good, but it's basically deferred earnings for 4 years of no income/medical school debt and 3-10 years of low paying post-graduate slavery. Plus, if you're non-trad, you get less of those "peak years" - years when you're both young enough and experienced enough to really pull in some money.

 

[sirus_virus]

I'm down with the lifestyle: http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Health/story?id=2395727&page=1

http://www.amazon.com/Lifestyle-Look-Erotic-Rites-Swingers/dp/1552094820

Dude I was ready to read something about physicians on that link, but that was more interesting.

 

[coldweatherblue]

So you like the concept of helping people with the scientific process, but med school might be too long, and PA school too repetitive. A genuine question: how much do you know about science/medicine? It seems like you have it all figured out from what you've read of other's experiences, rather than from first-hand knowledge. Any area of health-care involves taking care of different people every day, which makes it inherently non-repetitive imo. Every patient you interact with will have a different story/condition, whether you are a PA or a physician.

Hours/lifestyle/compensation in medicine vary far too widely to be able to accurately sum up. The answer is something like: physicians work anywhere from 20-100 hours/week, for $70-$600+ thousand a year. I very much believe that if you enter medicine with good intentions and are fairly brilliant/hard-working, you will be able to find a career that meets your goals. Other than that though, there is no real standard lifestyle or compensation.

 

[soeagerun2or]

Based on your statements you probably should not go to medical school. There are better and easier ways to kick your feet up and have a nice life, fields where you don't have a fiduciary duty to sacrifice your personal life.

 

[sirus_virus]

When the left wing is done cooking up their new healthcare reform, physicians will be sitting comfortably in the red financially. The plan is to cover everyone by slashing spending AKA screw physicians. OP, 200k is probably double what you will make by the time you start practicing. BTW, those that think specializing is the way to escape the financial ruins, you might want to read the proposals out there. The main targets are procedures and specialist care.

 

[flyinghi]

So you like the concept of helping people with the scientific process, but med school might be too long, and PA school too repetitive. A genuine question: how much do you know about science/medicine? It seems like you have it all figured out from what you've read of other's experiences, rather than from first-hand knowledge. Any area of health-care involves taking care of different people every day, which makes it inherently non-repetitive imo. Every patient you interact with will have a different story/condition, whether you are a PA or a physician.

i've only glazed the scientific world. i have a biochemistry degree and some small publications in college. i used to be a gunner, so i read a lot about the field in books, forums and did well academically, but phased out by the end of college. now im reconsidering.

another factor that i am noticing is people interaction is very important in certain fields of medicine. althought im generally a nice guy to be around, it takes a special person to be a nice guy to be around all the time.

just lots for me to consider. im getting hounded by the parentals to take my mcats before i forget my science knowledge. so ive been thinking about this for the past couple of weekends.

 

[Blesbok]

from the 8 or so doctors whom i've shadowed for a significant amount of time (several weeks each), there are plenty of careers out there where you can make similar, if not better, money for a lot less time and heartache.

i think the bottom line is that you should only go into medicine if (a) you really love it enough to take the sacrifices in order to practice, or (b) you're so brilliant that you can coast into a low-commitment, uber-compensating specialty without much stress.

when you think about the amount of education, training, hours/week, emotional and physical strain, and politics involved in a career in medicine, "200k" isn't nearly worth it. i'd much rather go to law school, thank you.

Name one other career where you can be guaranteed to make $250k+.

 

[jamo0001]

nt

 

[Pinkertinkle]

ME. accounting/finance (if you bust your ass during undergrad). plenty of law fields.

and there are plenty of fields in medicine where you'll never approach 250k in a year, fwiw

Finance ehh? Like investment banking?

 

[muireinin]

Medicine is more secure than other fields, but I have talked to "orphaned" residents whose programs were shut down when hospitals closed. It's getting pretty hairy out there.

 

[badasshairday]

BTW, those that think specializing is the way to escape the financial ruins, you might want to read the proposals out there. The main targets are procedures and specialist care.

This is true. I think we are going to see some significant changes by the end of President Obama's first term.

 

[flyinghi]

Finance ehh? Like investment banking?

yep. 250k in 3 years if you are good. 2 years of banking. 1 year of private equity. 350k last year at age 25.

obviously given the market, itll take maybe 5 years to make that. but its a sure bet. but its also not super fulfilling.

 

[sirus_virus]

yep. 250k in 3 years if you are good. 2 years of banking. 1 year of private equity. 350k last year at age 25.

obviously given the market, itll take maybe 5 years to make that. but its a sure bet. but its also not super fulfilling.

Is that not like anything else? "If you are good", you make good money in most professions, even striping. BTW, this is not a good time for "finance makes more money than medicine" arguments, and trust me I used to champion that argument. In fact, there was an article on yahoo about financial analysts applying to nursing school. What can I say, recesion is a mutha luva.

 

[Metfan2987]

I might be a little more naive than the normal poster here, considering I am a senior undergrad and am preparing to enter medical school next fall, however, I am highly troubled with our definition of the word "lifestyle" and assuming that money dictates it.

Here's the bottom line folks: If you are a practicing medical doctor, once your debt from medical school is gone (if it exists even; some people get help), you will be very comfortable financially. No doubt. You will be fine. You won't be a billionaire, I can guarantee you that, but you will be comfortable.

To me, I want to become a doctor for two reasons.
(1) The idea of doing something where another person looks at you for guidance and help, and sees you as somebody who can truly heal them is amazing to me. Call it prestige, call it status. There's only one word that truly captures it: Respect.

(2) Security. Hands down, the most secure industry there is. You will never be out of a job as a doctor. It just doesn't happen. You don't see M.D.'s sitting around on Monster.com struggling to make ends meet.

Notice something: Money is not one of those reasons. You can't buy respect, and you certainly can't buy security. Ask all those people who invested all their money with Bernie Madoff how secure they felt a year ago. The truth is, if you are looking to be a mega millionaire and live the sweet retired-at-40 life, this is not the career for you.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

yep. 250k in 3 years if you are good. 2 years of banking. 1 year of private equity. 350k last year at age 25.

obviously given the market, itll take maybe 5 years to make that. but its a sure bet. but its also not super fulfilling.

These numbers from 07 or 09?

 

[flyinghi]

These numbers from 07 or 09?

09 PE comp can definitely be in excess of 250k.

and i dont think its unreasonable for smart people to be paid that much. before 50% of banking analysts make it to private equity, maybe only 30% in this market.

i sense a certain disdain for wall street, people blame investment bankers, but bankers actually didn't make the market the way it is. its people who provided loans and poor risk management.

 

[poiuyt123]

I used to read this site religiously, so spare me the basics. I just want to know what you have heard or witnessed as doctors in training...

What kinds of lifestyle do you expect 6 years from now, so in the middle of your residency? What have you heard? Is it absolute misery?

If I plan on being on the middle of the pack at a medical school, what kind of lifestyle should I expect when I am done with my residency? (I know it depends on where I match, but how about a normal field).

Recently, I heard great things about the lifestyle of doctors, working 4 days a week, private practice, decent money (200K-300K). Is that still realistic for most doctors?

How will in the flow of med school applicants affect my ability to have a okay paying secure job?

Lastly, I have no clue how much doctors make. I used to read stats on it, but its all over the place. After insurance etc, how much does a standard doctor make. Just give me a range, I know it depends on specialty and location.

My questions are centered around lifestyle and job security because I currently work in investment banking and I am not happy with it. Before spending all my free time studying for the MCATs, I would like to get a general perspective from med school students around the country.

This probably isn't the best time for this but why don't you just switch to a job in finance that doesn't require such long hours every week.

 

[Gallix23]

from the 8 or so doctors whom i've shadowed for a significant amount of time (several weeks each), there are plenty of careers out there where you can make similar, if not better, money for a lot less time and heartache.
.

I hear that phrase a lot, but no one ever actually gives career names for those careers that make a comparable salary. If you look at the top 50 paid careers, or whatever it is, you'll see that until like #25 they're all medical/dental associated, and after that the numbers begin to fall drastically.

Besides, I've heard being a lawyer is awful and not even worth the money (which can vary greatly depending on how well you do/if you are in a firm).

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

Anyone talking money as much as you are probably should not go into medicine. You will not be fulfilled and will regret it.


Just my 0.02....

 

[sulawesi]

I hear that phrase a lot, but no one ever actually gives career names for those careers that make a comparable salary. If you look at the top 50 paid careers, or whatever it is, you'll see that until like #25 they're all medical/dental associated, and after that the numbers begin to fall drastically.

Besides, I've heard being a lawyer is awful and not even worth the money (which can vary greatly depending on how well you do/if you are in a firm).

Not to mention that the market is over-saturated with lawyers right now, since the controls on the number of law students are not nearly as tight as those on med students.

 

[circulus vitios]

ME. accounting/finance (if you bust your ass during undergrad). plenty of law fields.

and there are plenty of fields in medicine where you'll never approach 250k in a year, fwiw

Accounting? You'll be lucky to break $100k as a CPA. Finance? Good luck breaking into investment banking unless you're a U Penn business student. Law? You'd better be near the top of your class at a T-14 law school to even get a shot at a big law job. There's no guarantee you'll make partner, either.

 

[shindotp]

Accounting? You'll be lucky to break $100k as a CPA. Finance? Good luck breaking into investment banking unless you're a U Penn business student. Law? You'd better be near the top of your class at a T-14 law school to even get a shot at a big law job. There's no guarantee you'll make partner, either.

 

[Law2Doc]

Name one other career where you can be guaranteed to make $250k+.

First, medicine doesn't guarantee this amount. Depending on the source, the average physician income is somewhere between $150k and 210k. The US Bureau of Labor and Statistics (linked to a salary story on SDN's front page) indicates the most recently calculated average physician income is $155k. Last year some of the medical publications listed the average as $209k. I suspect the real answer is between these two figures. So your $250k is high. The cejka figures are high, and really shouldn't be cited as evidence. If you read the footnotes, you will see that these statistics are gathered exclusively from members of very large practice groups. So no, you can't assume something well above average is "guaranteed". It isn't. A whole lot of physicians won't hit the average, and the average is far short of where you suggest.

Second, the concept of high salary and guaranteed salary are incongruent. People take greater risks to earn greater incomes. Hence the highest income paths are also the ones with the least guarantee. If you need a guarantee, then you aren't the type who can focus on the highest incomes. It just doesn't go hand in hand. People choose high income fields because there are no ceilings. There are also no floors, as evidenced by the current stock market. But the economy will go roaring back in a few years, and folks who position themselves to partake in the upside (ie people who arent' spending $200k on med school tuition and embarking on long residency paths) are going to ride it back up in a few years. It is pretty much "guaranteed" that some folks you are going to college with now will become filthy rich sitting on their *****es, while you are toiling away hoping to make six digits in a few years. That's just the way the world works.

It is sad that folks on SDN cannot think of other careers beyond medicine, law and I banking. There are literally a thousand careers out there. You can become insanely rich in nearly anything, if you have a better idea, a better way to market it, find or create a niche demand. If you have to ask "name one other career" then you didn't do a good job researching careers in college. There are more answers to this question than pages on SDN. In my prior career I've worked with folks who became millionaires working at the US Postal service. I've worked with a millionaire who started a turn-key telecom company. I've worked with dotcom millionaires (not so many anymore). I've worked with folks who made millions selling ice cream, pizza. The list is endless. You have to have a good business plan and a willingness to work hard.

It's naive to think the road you are on is the most lucrative one, and require others to "name one" other path that beats it. Many beat it. Medicine is one of the worst paths in which to get rich, because the tuition debt is so steep and because the time value of money works against you. A dollar earned today is worth more than $2 earned 10 years from now. That concept is why a good income many years later in medicine never beats a slightly worse income now.

Now I guess you can argue that medicine offers a decent income with a modicum of stability. That's true and it's a very conservative viewpoint. But it's also not a viewpoint of someone seeking to maximize wealth. You have to decide -- do you want to be rich, or do you want to be a doctor. If it's the former, then yes, you are on the wrong path, bad economy notwithstanding. Because you are positioning yourself to not be in a good financial position when the economy goes rushing back up, in however many years it takes.

 

[sarahg]

I hear that phrase a lot, but no one ever actually gives career names for those careers that make a comparable salary. If you look at the top 50 paid careers, or whatever it is, you'll see that until like #25 they're all medical/dental associated, and after that the numbers begin to fall drastically.

There's also the fact that there's basically no other degree that pretty much guarantees that you make these figures if you are competent (and don't choose lower-paying work because you want to). There are high-paying positions in law, science, academia, and business administration, but getting a JD/PhD/MBA isn't an automatic route to them the way nearly anyone with an MD can get a six figure job after residency if they want it. The other side of this is that JDs and MBAs only spend 3 years in school (or less, for MBAs, unless they're part time), and while the time to complete a PhD plus postdoc can be similar to med school plus residency, most PhD students have their educations fully funded plus a living stipend rather than taking out $50k/year in debt.

 

[poiuyt123]

Accounting? You'll be lucky to break $100k as a CPA. Finance? Good luck breaking into investment banking unless you're a U Penn business student. Law? You'd better be near the top of your class at a T-14 law school to even get a shot at a big law job. There's no guarantee you'll make partner, either.

Accountants with a CPA actually can make more than 100k. Just like most other jobs making six figures, you have to be in a management position. You do not necessarily have to go to an ivy league school or be in business school to become an investment banker. However you are right about law though since the best firms usually recruit from ivy league law schools. Besides medicine, in most other jobs you have to either own your business, be in management positions,be smarter/hardworking, or innovative than everyone else to make six figures. You just can't be average if your goal is to make a lot of money.

 

[DrWookie]

Accounting? You'll be lucky to break $100k as a CPA. Finance? Good luck breaking into investment banking unless you're a U Penn business student. Law? You'd better be near the top of your class at a T-14 law school to even get a shot at a big law job. There's no guarantee you'll make partner, either.

My father's accountant specializes in doing physician's taxes and he makes more money than the average physician. Many times my dad will call him and he will be sailing the Caribbean or something crazy on vacation (He probably also does investments and the like, but all I know him for is doing taxes every year and he makes over 500k a year).

In terms of what I've heard of the career, I have to admit the most is from my father. He is a pediatric cardiologist and I would say works on the upper end of the 'average' workweek for physicians (It was A LOT worse when I was younger...typically around 15 hours a day, 6 to 7 days a week). There were really two things that made me completely convinced I wanted to do something similar:

1. No matter how much he works he is 100% satisfied with his job and loves it to death (almost quite literally sometimes). I'm fascinated with the career and know it is something that I could see myself doing the same thing in
2. He has been able to provide for my family in ways I can never thank him enough for. Even if he wasn't around for every special event in my childhood, I always had the highest respect and love for him because of how he provided for us.

I really don't care about the money, as long as I know that I can provide my family and children with every opportunity that I had as a child I will be happy. I recognize the lifestyle will probably not be as glamorous as many people may think but it is something that I know I will enjoy doing and I'd rather spend 80-90 hours a week doing something I love and know that I am providing for my family than spend 40 hours a week doing something I hate and struggling to give my children the opportunities I was given as a child.

 

[eyang22286]

I really don't care about the money, as long as I know that I can provide my family and children with every opportunity that I had as a child I will be happy. I recognize the lifestyle will probably not be as glamorous as many people may think but it is something that I know I will enjoy doing and I'd rather spend 80-90 hours a week doing something I love and know that I am providing for my family than spend 40 hours a week doing something I hate and struggling to give my children the opportunities I was given as a child.

This is just so true, I completely agree. My father (though not a doctor, he's a dentist) also provided for my family and we lived very comfortably. I want to do the same.

I know that as a physician I'm not going to be rolling in money, but at the same time, the money DOES matter, whether or not people agree. I don't need that Ferrari, but I do want to make enough so that I can allow my family to live very comfortably, given that I'm going to be working pretty long hours and that I'll have accrued something like 200k of debt.

I love the profession, but at the same time, I also need at least a decent compensation for everything that I sacrifice. If you think about it, we're doing this for ourselves, but the mass public benefits also. What the hell are we going to do in a world without doctors. Also, it goes back to that question of providing for your family too.

On yet another tangent, I do hope the obama administration realizes these things. We don't need to average 300k a year or whatever, but don't screw us to the point where we can't even have a comfortable lifestyle, given how much we've been through. But..... yeah, I realize they really can care less..

 

[Law2Doc]

...
On yet another tangent, I do hope the obama administration realizes these things. We don't need to average 300k a year or whatever, but don't screw us to the point where we can't even have a comfortable lifestyle, given how much we've been through. But..... yeah, I realize they really can care less..

The Obama administration has a single goal, and it is really the same goal as any administration attempting healthcare reform -- to provide the most affordable, minimally sufficient level of healthcare to the most people. Good physician incomes will necessarily be at odds with this goal. The insurance industry will usually have the administration's ear as they lobby much harder than physicians and purport to speak for more healthcare customers. So expect to get screwed a bit in the name of reform. Nobody pities the poor struggling physician. The public thinks doctors are rich, and politicians first and foremost want to keep the public happy.

 

[starfishprime]

The Obama administration has a single goal, and it is really the same goal as any administration attempting healthcare reform -- to provide the most affordable, minimally sufficient level of healthcare to the most people. Good physician incomes will necessarily be at odds with this goal. The insurance industry will usually have the administration's ear as they lobby much harder than physicians and purport to speak for more healthcare customers. So expect to get screwed a bit in the name of reform. Nobody pities the poor struggling physician. The public thinks doctors are rich, and politicians first and foremost want to keep the public happy.

I thought you knew better.

 

[eyang22286]

The Obama administration has a single goal, and it is really the same goal as any administration attempting healthcare reform -- to provide the most affordable, minimally sufficient level of healthcare to the most people. Good physician incomes will necessarily be at odds with this goal. The insurance industry will usually have the administration's ear as they lobby much harder than physicians and purport to speak for more healthcare customers. So expect to get screwed a bit in the name of reform. Nobody pities the poor struggling physician. The public thinks doctors are rich, and politicians first and foremost want to keep the public happy.

*sigh* too true. i just wish people should... understand. you know what would work? if they made some new reality TV show like "how to become a doctor". seems to be one of the only (if not the sole) method of communication these days.

 

[Law2Doc]

...you know what would work? if they made some new reality TV show like "how to become a doctor". seems to be one of the only (if not the sole) method of communication these days.

After a year of bad ratings, it would devolve into Celebrity Med School (much like the Apprentice devolved) and you would see someone like Dennis Rodman becoming a doctor and undo your message pretty handily.

 

[UVAbme2009]

This is probably a good place to ask this.

The Cav Daily (UVa's student paper) publishes each spring a list of faculty salaries. All physicians employed by the health system are also on there. Why is it that just about every salary is $100k? I'm talking from your general pediatrician to many surgeons. Some do have higher salaries, but often the head of the department is also only listed at $100k. So what kind of other bonuses or whatever else are being included?

 

[Habeed]

Maybe that's what the school pays these faculty to teach, but they get to bill separately for the cases they take? So that 100k in theory buys 20-30 hours per week of a faculty surgeon's time, where he or she does low paying, easier cases and teaches students. And it buys somewhat more time from a more "full time" faculty member, who doesn't have much else to do but teach medical students.

 

[Upgrayedd]

Just a few things:

1) CPAs/Finance jobs are a better investment than medical school, but ask yourself if you are comfortable spending the rest of your life manipulating spreadsheets for income (if so, go for the acct'ing/finance path!)

2) Take it with a grain of salt, but I feel as though there is a glut of CPAs coming through the education pipeline, all with post-grad degrees (this means a depression in wages!!!)

3) Pretty much any job with stock options can make you filthy rich. Doctors don't get the luxury of stock options as a bonus to their income. But let me tell you, from working at a company where the options never "popped", the window can sometimes look like a pretty good way out when people start to realize that they literally just wasted a big chunk of their lives.

4) Investors rule companies. As much as Obama is going to ream medicine, atleast there is some logic/pradictability behind his actions... as for the investors, well, good luck with that...

5) There are certain areas of law which are pretty awesome, and if you know your stuff in areas like IP in the biotech industry, you get used to all the old tricks and you can take on a client and practice some cookbook steps and get a great fee while delivering high quality results without pulling out your hair. Disclaimer: this seems to be the exception, not the rule.

 

[45408]

Average physician makes somewhere around $200k. Most are hospitalists, and they get paid around there.

Who told you that? Hospitalists are a sub-set of internal medicine. They're just a small portion of the total.

 

[shindotp]

Who told you that? Hospitalists are a sub-set of internal medicine. They're just a small portion of the total.

Ooops, I meant most are internists. I should fix that.

 

[sulawesi]

It is sad that folks on SDN cannot think of other careers beyond medicine, law and I banking. There are literally a thousand careers out there. You can become insanely rich in nearly anything, if you have a better idea, a better way to market it, find or create a niche demand. If you have to ask "name one other career" then you didn't do a good job researching careers in college. There are more answers to this question than pages on SDN. In my prior career I've worked with folks who became millionaires working at the US Postal service. I've worked with a millionaire who started a turn-key telecom company. I've worked with dotcom millionaires (not so many anymore). I've worked with folks who made millions selling ice cream, pizza. The list is endless. You have to have a good business plan and a willingness to work hard.

I'm really curious to hear how someone became a millionaire through government work.

However, all the other careers you cite are essentially the same thing. You can become rich selling pizza or lingerie or tech support, but these are all just different flavors of entrepreneurial startup jobs. Many, and probably most, people going into medicine don't have the particular kind of creativity and skill set needed for business success. I know I don't. That isn't a bad thing, but it cuts out a lot of options, probably most of them. I would crash and burn if I tried to run my own company, or tried to claw my way to the top of an existing one, so I'll never try.

Further, once you've paid down your debt, you can easily stockpile a huge amount of money as a doctor, if you have the will power to continue delaying gratification (this is assuming salaries don't plunge in the next couple of decades). I don't know why this is always made to seem essentially impossible. Allow yourself small standard of living increases each year and you'll appreciate them that much more.

 

[Habeed]

However, all the other careers you cite are essentially the same thing. You can become rich selling pizza or lingerie or tech support, but these are all just different flavors of entrepreneurial startup jobs. Many, and probably most, people going into medicine don't have the particular kind of creativity and skill set needed for business success. I know I don't. That isn't a bad thing, but it cuts out a lot of options, probably most of them. I would crash and burn if I tried to run my own company, or tried to claw my way to the top of an existing one, so I'll never try.

Agreed. There's also a lot more ways a business startup can go wrong. Furthermore, a tremendous amount of succeeding in business depends on pure luck and how much money you started with in the first place. (which most of us have none of this point) In medicine, you're most of the way to being successful if you simply manage to finish training in a highly competitive specialty.

Further, the obstacles in your way to finishing training may sometimes be unfair or arbitrary...but often, it is merit. Yes, the residency selection process has biased "who you know" elements to it...but the statistics show if you made the high test scores, your chances are tremendously better. More often than not, if you are dismissed from residency, it is because you were significantly below the standard (whether your fault or not, I know that some people are dismissed because they got sick or have a tremor).

Compare that to business, where to even get started at all you need to be in the right place at the right time with the right idea, also known as "lucky". As your business grows, all sorts of underhanded dealings can massively affect your chances of success. Competitors backed by massive corporations can choose to run at a loss in order to crush you like a bug. In the business management world, all sorts of arbitrary cronisms can affect whether you're ever promoted, and you can lose everything you worked for in an instant. (yes, this can happen in medicine, but this is very rare...it takes an extreme situation for a medical board to revoke your license, while you could get fired from a management job because someone didn't like a remark you made only once)