What if your reasons for medical school are financial reward and bringing a good image to family?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
There is a lot more stability in medicine compared to the other paths. I think the surest way to to end up a millionaire was become a dentist and invest in index funds with earnings. We like to point towards x business person and say " see that guy is making a killing, should have done business" what that kind of observation lacks is attrition bias associated with those jobs. There are probably 100 other people with similar drive and work ethic that only earn a fraction of those winners. On the flip side if I look at any physician that works full time as a physician . I can with almost certainty say that Person clears 150k gross. There is also another fact that gets left off of these discussions about lost earnings on investments. It assumes people earning lower wages have the free funds to invest, it takes a baseline level of spending to live comfortably and after that you can invest, median income earners are not putting away 20k in 401k accounts each year.

But I agree with your general point that the income associated with becoming a physician is a secondary consideration for some people. And as long as the work is being done who cares what people's motivations are. There is no evidence to indicate that a person who is motivated by money to go into medicine provides less quality healthcare compared to a mother Teresa type. Atleast none that I am familiar with.

Anyone that can get to a competitive speciality can make it as an investment banker. The career requires strong quantitative reasoning, high work ethic (~80hours+ in first few years), and great interview / human interaction skills. If you love money as the only reason for choosing medicine, when investment banking is your opportunity cost, then you have made a very silly decision with medicine. Investment banking only requires an undergraduate degree. This is not a pipe dream alternative career, for folks that would be strong compared to their peers in medical school, earning 100-140k plus at 80+ hours a week as an investment banker at age 22 is a very real opportunity cost. And make no mistake money earned earlier is much more valuable than earned later; compound interest is a great ally and a devastating foe.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
There is a lot more stability in medicine compared to the other paths. I think the surest way to to end up a millionaire was become a dentist and invest in index funds with earnings. We like to point towards x business person and say " see that guy is making a killing, should have done business" what that kind of observation lacks is attrition bias associated with those jobs. There are probably 100 other people with similar drive and work ethic that only earn a fraction of those winners. On the flip side if I look at any physician that works full time as a physician . I can with almost certainty say that Person clears 150k gross. There is also another fact that gets left off of these discussions about lost earnings on investments. It assumes people earning lower wages have the free funds to invest, it takes a baseline level of spending to live comfortably and after that you can invest, median income earners are not putting away 20k in 401k accounts each year.

But I agree with your general point that the income associated with becoming a physician is a secondary consideration for some people. And as long as the work is being done who cares what people's motivations are. There is no evidence to indicate that a person who is motivated by money to go into medicine provides less quality healthcare compared to a mother Teresa type. Atleast none that I am familiar with.

Always annoys me when people say "there are easier ways to make 6 figures". Sure there are, but there is no other "guaranteed" path to get there aside from medicine, at least that I'm aware of.

I don't think I would be successful as a business person or as a lawyer, but I made it into medical school so at this point there's a >90% chance that I'll be making a bunch of money at some point down the line. A career in medicine is extremely linear: get into school, do well, match into specialty, become attending, profit. There are a lot of careers where you could hit $100k eventually just by working hard, but if you want to make 150, 200 or more you need to be really good at playing the game in addition to being smart, hard-working and a little lucky.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
You honestly don't have to become a doctor to do all this and if you really think about it you'll be wasting almost 8-10 years of your life thinking that you'll be rich when you finish. Why not go into business or become an entrepreneurship to make money fast easy and not lie to yourself
A lot of doctors go into business, management, health administration, research, teaching, consulting, etc... Being a physician opens many other doors for you besides just treating patients. And they all pay well.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
A lot of doctors go into business, management, health administration, research, teaching, consulting, etc... Being a physician opens many other doors for you besides just treating patients. And they all pay well.

I mean if OP is interested in it then might as well go for it, but I would recommend to atleast think if you'd actually enjoy your job rather than cry every morning waking up to have to go to you job - thats depressing and for what I've learned its not worth it
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hell ****ing no. I'd rather sell. I'd be happier, richer, and my clients would actually thank me instead of thinking I'm full of ****.
Exactly. This is why it's irritating when everyone attacks someone with something along the lines of "hur durr ur just greedy, u dnt care about ppl u dnt deserve to be doktor!!!1!" whenever they bring up high pay as a motivating factor. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
 
Exactly. This is why it's irritating when everyone attacks someone with something along the lines of "hur durr ur just greedy, u dnt care about ppl u dnt deserve to be doktor!!!1!" whenever they bring up high pay as a motivating factor. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
What greedy; you go to school for 8 years investing hundreds of thousands of dollars
You spent the next 2-7 years in residency where you make trash all the while the interest manhandles your principal
Then you start paying back your loans while trying to live an adult life, as a doctor no less.
Whoever says you're being greedy is delusional
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
High pay and prestige shouldn't be primary motivating factors...

Going to medical school should allow you to have a career doing X, Y, and Z with prestige and pay being a perk.
 
Frankly, you should find a different career to pursue. It is a lot of work to get into medical school, attend medical school, complete residency, etc. If your heart is not in it for reasons other than prestige/money/family pressure, then it is not worth it.
 
Anyone that can get to a competitive speciality can make it as an investment banker. The career requires strong quantitative reasoning, high work ethic (~80hours+ in first few years), and great interview / human interaction skills. If you love money as the only reason for choosing medicine, when investment banking is your opportunity cost, then you have made a very silly decision with medicine. Investment banking only requires an undergraduate degree. This is not a pipe dream alternative career, for folks that would be strong compared to their peers in medical school, earning 100-140k plus at 80+ hours a week as an investment banker at age 22 is a very real opportunity cost. And make no mistake money earned earlier is much more valuable than earned later; compound interest is a great ally and a devastating foe.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
get-a-job-my-parents-said-its-easy-to-find-they-said_o_805118.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
I would guess, however, that Mother Teresa is more likely to choose a path within medicine which helps address healthcare disparities, meaning the AMA has a good reason to want people who are not just motivated and capable, but are motivated by specific things.
I don't disagree with you, however the realist in me thinks that mother Teresa's hit m3 and if they have a good step score suddenly they develop an interest in solving the disparities in treatment of skin conditions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Always annoys me when people say "there are easier ways to make 6 figures". Sure there are, but there is no other "guaranteed" path to get there aside from medicine, at least that I'm aware of.

I don't think I would be successful as a business person or as a lawyer, but I made it into medical school so at this point there's a >90% chance that I'll be making a bunch of money at some point down the line. A career in medicine is extremely linear: get into school, do well, match into specialty, become attending, profit. There are a lot of careers where you could hit $100k eventually just by working hard, but if you want to make 150, 200 or more you need to be really good at playing the game in addition to being smart, hard-working and a little lucky.
I think a lot of people who are interested in law and capable of getting into medical school could also be successful lawyers. Most T14s have median first year incomes higher than 160k. For some, more than 75% of students make over 160k in their first year. That's comparable to family practice lawyers in some regions, there's a lot of potential to make more as your career progresses, and it takes only 3 years of schooling with no residency. At some T14s the 25%ile GPA is around 3.4, and some have acceptance rates >25%, so a high stats student has a very strong shot at most high-ranking law schools even without much for ECs. The LSAT does not require the massive amount of studying as the MCAT (although it might filter more students out because performance is based on skills that take a long time to develop).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I don't disagree with you, however the realist in me thinks that mother Teresa's hit m3 and if they have a good step score suddenly they develop an interest in solving the disparities in treatment of skin conditions.

I think there is a wide gray area between dermatologist and mother Teresa in which most of us fall.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

I didn't really believe him that getting into IB was that attainable... But I spent the last hour reading the finance version of SDN and it seems like it's not thaaaaat hard, and then it's also a very linear career progression where if you stick with it and put the (very substantial / possibly soul-crushing if you don't enjoy the work) hours in you're pretty much guaranteed to make it analyst -> associate -> VP where you make $300k+. But it's also even more unforgiving than medicine about low GPA, coming from a low ranking school, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
That's pretty much what I said in my PS and I got in just fine. Yes, a lot of people will write that, but just because your rationale is common doesn't mean it's bad. Better to be honest about your reasoning than making stuff up.

I'll pretty much mention all of the above except financial reward and status, but then again I came from a low income family so why not mention how proud I'll make my family by being a doctor.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I didn't really believe him that getting into IB was that attainable... But I spent the last hour reading the finance version of SDN and it seems like it's not thaaaaat hard, and then it's also a very linear career progression where if you stick with it and put the (very substantial / possibly soul-crushing if you don't enjoy the work) hours in you're pretty much guaranteed to make it analyst -> associate -> VP where you make $300k+. But it's also even more unforgiving than medicine about low GPA, coming from a low ranking school, etc.
You need connections and pedigree. Medicine is imho more merritocratic. an how many of the associates are left in that spot or analysts are left as analysts.
 
I didn't really believe him that getting into IB was that attainable... But I spent the last hour reading the finance version of SDN and it seems like it's not thaaaaat hard, and then it's also a very linear career progression where if you stick with it and put the (very substantial / possibly soul-crushing if you don't enjoy the work) hours in you're pretty much guaranteed to make it analyst -> associate -> VP where you make $300k+. But it's also even more unforgiving than medicine about low GPA, coming from a low ranking school, etc.

Hence, my language about folks that would be "strong compared to their peers in medical school". I'm not talking about the person that barely makes it into an MD. But if you can breeze into plastics, you could've set your mind on Investment Banking and made it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You need connections and pedigree. Medicine is imho more merritocratic. an how many of the associates are left in that spot or analysts are left as analysts.

Fair enough, I went to a small liberal arts and sciences college with almost guaranteed annual spots at BoA, ML, WF, and Suntrust, so my perspective might be distorted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Hence, my language about folks that would be "strong compared to their peers in medical school". I'm not talking about the person that barely makes it into an MD. But if you can breeze into plastics, you could've set your mind on Investment Banking and made it.
A DO from the newest DO school is still going to make 150+ and possibly close to 300, this is not to offend DOs, rather to show that you don't need to get into plastics.
 
A DO from the newest DO school is still going to make 150+ and possibly close to 300, this is not to offend DOs, rather to show that you don't need to get into plastics.

Indeed, my point was more about the cut required to get into IB rather than to say you needed plastics for decent income (I most certainly do not think this).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If money and prestige are your only motivators you won't make it through clinical rotations or residency. If you somehow persevere and do, you'll be miserable. It really is that simple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
SDN is a bit delusional on how difficult it is to actually get into investment banking on Wall Street. I see "go into IB" more times than I can count when a thread pops up concerning money. Becoming merely a financial analyst is difficult enough as it is, and you're working 80-120 hour weeks at that. If you didn't go to a target school or an Ivy League, your chances are slim to none.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
If money and prestige are your only motivators you won't make it through clinical rotations or residency. If you somehow persevere and do, you'll be miserable. It really is that simple.
People who tend to say this have not worked other professional jobs before.
 
People who tend to say this have not worked other professional jobs before.
People who disagree haven't experienced work as a physician. I've worked plenty of minimum wage jobs through high school and college and none of them compare to even my work as a medical assistant let alone physician. The level of expectations, responsibility and hectic hours is hard to match. If the only light at the end of the tunnel is possibly a fancy car downstairs in the parking garage it just wont be worth it for most.
 
People who disagree haven't experienced work as a physician. I've worked plenty of minimum wage jobs through high school and college and none of them compare to even my work as a medical assistant let alone physician. The level of expectations, responsibility and hectic hours is hard to match. If the only light at the end of the tunnel is possibly a fancy car downstairs in the parking garage it just wont be worth it for most.

What does make it worth it then? Sincerely wondering (for you personally).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
What does make it worth it then? Sincerely wondering (for you personally).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
For me it's a mix of feeling that I have a moral obligation to my patients and just enjoying the work I do (the medicine, the social aspect especially with kids in pediatrics, the feeling of making a difference).

When a patient is scheduled for a sore throat but nonchalantly mentions battling depression for the past year I simply cant imagine just doing a rapid step test and telling them to come back later without addressing the elephant in the room. Sure we're already 30 minutes into my 1 hour lunch break and I was up at the crack of dawn, but I enjoy the work I do and feel like when a patient opens up like that and you can help you absolutely should. I don't think I'd be able to push myself day in and day out like that for years as a physician if I was just doing it for the money.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
For me it's a mix of feeling that I have a moral obligation to my patients and just enjoying the work I do (the medicine, the social aspect especially with kids in pediatrics, the feeling of making a difference).

When a patient is scheduled for a sore throat but nonchalantly mentions battling depression for the past year I simply cant imagine just doing a rapid step test and telling them to come back later without addressing the elephant in the room. Sure we're already 30 minutes into my 1 hour lunch break and I was up at the crack of dawn, but I enjoy the work I do and feel like when a patient opens up like that and you can help you absolutely should. I don't think I'd be able to push myself day in and day out like that for years as a physician if I was just doing it for the money.
Update your flair.
 
Update your flair.
Still a few years away from that, haha. I just have the unique opportunity of working under a physician who wanted to make sure I had a very clear idea of what I was signing up for and gives me more responsibility than my official job title since I've been with him for a few years.
 
SDN is a bit delusional on how difficult it is to actually get into investment banking on Wall Street. I see "go into IB" more times than I can count when a thread pops up concerning money. Becoming merely a financial analyst is difficult enough as it is, and you're working 80-120 hour weeks at that. If you didn't go to a target school or an Ivy League, your chances are slim to none.
@JJRousseau went to Washington & Lee, which is a LAC that is not exactly a target but has extremely strong finance connections. I'd guess that students at target schools are very over-represented on this site (and also in medical schools).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
@JJRousseau went to Washington & Lee, which is a LAC that is not exactly a target but has extremely strong finance connections. I'd guess that students at target schools are very over-represented on this site (and also in medical schools).
I'm not saying it can't happen. The difference of being at a target school versus being at a non-target is that if you're at a non-target you have to network your tail off constantly and build up a stellar resume. It can be done. It just takes a lot more work and a bit of luck, whereas the networking connections and recruitment from IB's are provided to you at the target schools.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I'm not saying it can't happen. The difference of being at a target school versus being at a non-target is that if you're at a non-target you have to network your tail off constantly and build up a stellar resume. It can be done. It just takes a lot more work and a bit of luck, whereas the networking connections and recruitment from IB's are provided to you at the target schools.
I was trying to support your point with my post. I think a lot of the people on this site have a distorted view of getting into IB because either a) they know nothing about it and have just heard people mention it as a way to get rich or b) they come from semi-targets or targets and have a distorted perception of what the job search is actually like.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I was trying to support your point with my post. I think a lot of the people on this site have a distorted view of getting into IB because either a) they know nothing about it and have just heard people mention it as a way to get rich or b) they come from semi-targets or targets and have a distorted perception of what the job search is actually like.
Whoops. My bad haha. I misinterpreted your post! You're completely right in what you're saying. It's a mix of the two types of people for sure.

You know...I never really thought SDN was full of students from target schools though. It'd be interesting to see the demographics on that.
 
Whoops. My bad haha. I misinterpreted your post! You're completely right in what you're saying. It's a mix of the two types of people for sure.

You know...I never really thought SDN was full of students from target schools though. It'd be interesting to see the demographics on that.
The only thing I can find is a 2010 poll. In 2010, only 3 of the top 15 universities on US News were not targets - CalTech (probably not a whole lot of SDN users since it's small and grade-deflated), WUSTL (semi-target), and JHU (non-target with probably a high SDN representation). 16.4% were at a university ranked 15-30, which includes another big round of targets and semi-targets.

It's not surprising since targets and semi-targets produce a lot of applicants to medical school. Let's say the Ivies, Stanford, UChicago, Duke, WUSTL, Emory, UCB, UVA, UMich, MIT, Gtown, UNC, Rice, Duke, UNC, Northwestern, NYU, Notre Dame, BC, and Vanderbilt are all targets or semi-targets. In 2016-2017, these undergrads produced 7,773 applicants out of a total of 21,030 med school applicants. Of course Harvard will have more of a culture of IB feeding than Emory, and UCB bio students probably won't think of IB as much as Haas students, but with nearly 40% of med school applicants attending a target or semi-target, it's true that a lot of premeds could switch to econ, cut out 7+ years of training and debt, and enter IB, but the suggestion isn't very relevant to the 63% at non-targets.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
As long as you're a good doctor your reason doesn't matter
 
There is a lot more stability in medicine compared to the other paths. I think the surest way to to end up a millionaire was become a dentist and invest in index funds with earnings. We like to point towards x business person and say " see that guy is making a killing, should have done business" what that kind of observation lacks is attrition bias associated with those jobs. There are probably 100 other people with similar drive and work ethic that only earn a fraction of those winners. On the flip side if I look at any physician that works full time as a physician . I can with almost certainty say that Person clears 150k gross. There is also another fact that gets left off of these discussions about lost earnings on investments. It assumes people earning lower wages have the free funds to invest, it takes a baseline level of spending to live comfortably and after that you can invest, median income earners are not putting away 20k in 401k accounts each year.

But I agree with your general point that the income associated with becoming a physician is a secondary consideration for some people. And as long as the work is being done who cares what people's motivations are. There is no evidence to indicate that a person who is motivated by money to go into medicine provides less quality healthcare compared to a mother Teresa type. Atleast none that I am familiar with.

Also, physicians who are open to using their medical knowledge for much broader applications than the clinic can do very well on their own.


At the company I work for right now, a venture capital firm, physician consultants are paid roughly 15-25k per year to act as an advisor/consultant. The duties of that job are literally just attending 2 or 3 hourlong meetings. If you are open to consulting for multiple companies you can boost your income by 75-100k easy.


Plus, (at least at my company) physicians aren't bossed around by the Executives. If one of our consulting docs has to be in the clinic and therefore miss a meeting the company will bend everyone else's schedule to meet his. Last week we had a surgeon tell our CEO to **** off because the CEO kept calling him during surgical prep. The CEO apologized profusely and offered to double his consulting compensation!

I know of another company that has a physician advisory board that doesn't practice medicine. Their sole source of income is consulting to many different finance/medical device companies and they clear 7 figures per year.


I mean, you kinda have to sell your soul and become a cog in the medical investment industry machine, but if you're hurting for cash it's a valid avenue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I personally think money and prestige should be independent of professionalism. i.e. I don't think it's wrong to go in a field for M+P as long as one is able to commit to that career and do the best that they can without hampering others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
People who disagree haven't experienced work as a physician. I've worked plenty of minimum wage jobs through high school and college and none of them compare to even my work as a medical assistant let alone physician. The level of expectations, responsibility and hectic hours is hard to match. If the only light at the end of the tunnel is possibly a fancy car downstairs in the parking garage it just wont be worth it for most.

For me it's a mix of feeling that I have a moral obligation to my patients and just enjoying the work I do (the medicine, the social aspect especially with kids in pediatrics, the feeling of making a difference).

When a patient is scheduled for a sore throat but nonchalantly mentions battling depression for the past year I simply cant imagine just doing a rapid step test and telling them to come back later without addressing the elephant in the room. Sure we're already 30 minutes into my 1 hour lunch break and I was up at the crack of dawn, but I enjoy the work I do and feel like when a patient opens up like that and you can help you absolutely should. I don't think I'd be able to push myself day in and day out like that for years as a physician if I was just doing it for the money.
This might be unacceptable for you personally as a motivation, but for other people it may be perfectly ok. People sell their bodies for money I am thinking that might be unacceptable to you,but seems like an action others are ok with. It's a little harsh imposing one's own perspective on other people's life and career choices and motivations. I say this as a person who is leaving a lucrative career to go into medicine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This might be unacceptable for you personally as a motivation, but for other people it may be perfectly ok. People sell their bodies for money I am thinking that might be unacceptable to you,but seems like an action others are ok with. It's a little harsh imposing one's own perspective on other people's life and career choices and motivations. I say this as a person who is leaving a lucrative career to go into medicine.

I'm not being daft and saying the financial aspect isn't or shouldn't be a motivation. All I'm saying is that one will struggle significantly through school and the career if that's the sole motivation.

As others have mentioned there are other jobs out there that still allow one to make a good living without nearly the same level of sacrifices.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Always annoys me when people say "there are easier ways to make 6 figures". Sure there are, but there is no other "guaranteed" path to get there aside from medicine, at least that I'm aware of.

The medical path is hardly "guaranteed," even with quotes. It is true that once you are solidly on this path, it is hard(ish) to get bumped off. But the effort to get accepted and then to do well enough to secure that guarantee is more than adequate to succeed in most any other field. And better still: a failure along the way in most other industries is not only forgivable, but may be instructive in itself, allowing for greater success. If you tank your an early entrepreneurial pursuit, you gain experience that lets you go again, harder and perform better.

In medicine, if you fail... it is a red flag at best, and possibly the end of your career. A course or two. God forbid, a Step. The Match. Fired from residency. Substance abuse anywhere along the line. Serious mental illness. Serious physical illness. There are so many things that, in other careers, a person can bounce back from, but that in medicine just make one into a cautionary tale for SDNers to shake their heads at.

Everyone tells themselves that they won't be the one who gets a cancer diagnosis on rotations. Or that they won't bounce off a Step exam. And mostly, they are right. But those are real risks that cannot be discounted and their implications are much worse for a future physician than for would be business folks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
In medicine, if you fail... it is a red flag at best, and possibly the end of your career. A course or two. God forbid, a Step. The Match. Fired from residency. Substance abuse anywhere along the line. Serious mental illness. Serious physical illness. There are so many things that, in other careers, a person can bounce back from, but that in medicine just make one into a cautionary tale for SDNers to shake their heads at.

Everyone tells themselves that they won't be the one who gets a cancer diagnosis on rotations. Or that they won't bounce off a Step exam. And mostly, they are right. But those are real risks that cannot be discounted and their implications are much worse for a future physician than for would be business folks.

74035489.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: 11 users
The medical path is hardly "guaranteed," even with quotes. It is true that once you are solidly on this path, it is hard(ish) to get bumped off. But the effort to get accepted and then to do well enough to secure that guarantee is more than adequate to succeed in most any other field. And better still: a failure along the way in most other industries is not only forgivable, but may be instructive in itself, allowing for greater success. If you tank your an early entrepreneurial pursuit, you gain experience that lets you go again, harder and perform better.

In medicine, if you fail... it is a red flag at best, and possibly the end of your career. A course or two. God forbid, a Step. The Match. Fired from residency. Substance abuse anywhere along the line. Serious mental illness. Serious physical illness. There are so many things that, in other careers, a person can bounce back from, but that in medicine just make one into a cautionary tale for SDNers to shake their heads at.

Everyone tells themselves that they won't be the one who gets a cancer diagnosis on rotations. Or that they won't bounce off a Step exam. And mostly, they are right. But those are real risks that cannot be discounted and their implications are much worse for a future physician than for would be business folks.

Aren't all of these things usually the person's own fault though? There isn't really too much luck involved in any of these situations outside of really extreme circumstances. Once you're in medical school, the path is literally laid out for you and all you have to do is work for it. Unless you just get lazy or do something really stupid (getting drunk and attacking an Uber driver), it will be pretty hard to completely fail and ruin your chances of being a doctor.

In other fields, a lot of it is up to luck, your own ingenuity, and connections. These things also influence medicine but to a much lesser extent. In pretty much any other field there isn't a set system to that will have you making 6 figures once you're done. There's a lot of variance in pay. In medicine the path is usually pre-med --> med school --> residency ---> attending. There may be some differences when factoring in non-trads, fellowships etc but the recipe to success is literally given to you. There are no recipes like this in entrepreneurship.

If you go to law school, unless you're at a top law school or at the very top of your class there is a very high chance you could be unemployed or working a low paying job. If you go to business school there is no guarantee you will start a business that is successful, and if you do it might not be as successful as you want it to be. Sure you can begin a new endeavor and try to learn from your mistakes but there is a possibility that you will continue to fail or not reach the level of success you want no more how much effort you put in. In medicine, effort is rewarded pretty consistently (provided you have the level of intelligence necessary, which is usually assessed through admissions). Even some of the worst students in a med school class can go on to become successful clinicians make 6 figures.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Last edited:
Aren't all of these things usually the person's own fault though?

Did you miss the multiple references to serious illness?

And the fact that effort is consistently awarded in medicine does not cancel out the fact that failure is more harshly punished.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Did you miss the multiple references to serious illness?

And the fact that effort is consistently awarded in medicine does not cancel out the fact that failure is more harshly punished.

Serious illness will affect someone's career regardless of what career that is. Also failure that leads to someone's entire career being ruined is more harshly punished in medicine because in most cases that type of failure is usually caused by a situation in which it really is the person's own fault. Any illness that would effect someone to the point that they can no longer become a doctor would probably effect them similarly in any other career of similar magnitude.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
You don't tell me people those reasons. You show them once you got dat cash nomsayin fool? I personally can't wait to be making a chit ton of money and enjoying most parts of my job. Nice house, provide a good life for my kids and wife, and retire nicely.

Hopefully I don't eff up to bad and I am gonna make it.
 
The very high salary is a big reason why many of the best and brightest of our society become doctors, and if they're going to go through an extra decade of school and do an extremely hard job to earn it they deserve it. It just shouldn't be taboo to want it like it seems to be here.
Have been here a while and have not seen that attitude (piss on you if you want a good salary.) Would be banned probably if I had encountered it lololol.
 
Aren't all of these things usually the person's own fault though? There isn't really too much luck involved in any of these situations outside of really extreme circumstances. Once you're in medical school, the path is literally laid out for you and all you have to do is work for it. Unless you just get lazy or do something really stupid (getting drunk and attacking an Uber driver), it will be pretty hard to completely fail and ruin your chances of being a doctor.

It is comforting to assume that terrible things only happen to people who cause them to happen through their own choices. That is part of what is called the Just World fallacy... and it is a great favorite of successful young people who want to believe that their positive trajectory in life is all due to their hard work, that they have more control over their fate than they actually do. Assuming that those who fail are almost always at fault makes you feel more secure that you won't find yourself on the wrong side of fortune. After all, you have control over the choices you make, and so you can protect yourself by just making the right choices.

But the truth is that there is a certain risk of random bad things happening and that every day of your life, you are exposed to some miniscule fraction of that risk. On any given day, that risk is so vanishingly small that it can be entirely discounted, but the 7-10 years of med school and residency adds up to a lot of dice rolls. There are a number of illnesses, mental and physical, which are especially likely to present during these years. Some periods are more vulnerable than others, like intern year. If you don't finish intern year, you can't get a license at all, even though you completed medical school. Programs do not have to provide an intern who became ill or injured with an opportunity to return the next year. Finding a new internship may not be so easy, if you can't find someone to take a chance on you.

So, if you have your first round of MS, or leukemia, or breast cancer... those don't have to be permanently disabling but they can knock you off the path. Mental health is even more stigmatized, and there are people who will straight argue that a physician with well controlled mental illness still shouldn't be permitted to practice, because what if... Those aren't things that never happen. You just don't hear about them so much when they do, and that helps build your confirmation bias and reinforce your belief in the Just World fallacy.

In other industries, you can get a second chance. Medicine is set up so that if you don't get through that vulnerable 7-10 years more or less on time with very little disruption, you may not ever get to try again, no matter how capable or deserving or whatevs. There are a few periods that are especially tense... like intern year. If you don't complete your intern year, you can't get a license. And you may find yourself unable to locate an opportunity to resolve that, no matter how capable or virtuous or deserving you may be. Residency spots are an artificially limited resource and when there is always a new cohort of fresh grads who don't have a complicated backstory who want them just as bad. Business opportunities are not limited in the same way. Indeed, it is the nature of entrepreneurialism that if there isn't already a job waiting for you that you create your own opportunity out of thin air. Yes, that takes some brains and effort and luck, but if you fail it, you can always go again... there is no limit on attempts, like there is with taking Step exams.

I don't blame you for wanting to look away from the uncomfortable thought that you might, through no fault of your own, have the door to your dreams slammed shut in your face. If I hadn't seen it happen to a few people, I'd rather not acknowledge it either. But you do yourself and those who are in that situation a disservice by pretending that anyone is so virtuous as to be safe from misfortune.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

Yeah. Sorry about that. It is scary to think about, but that fear is the very reason that people end up believing falsely reassuring myths about the lives they are living.

I'm one of those mad folks who believes that real happiness and security is only possible once fears have been faced down and conquered... even if overcoming the fear doesn't disarm the risks one faces. I read too much Sartre and T.S. Eliot when I was a small child, I guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Well here's to having an extra drink tonight thanks to promethean
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
It is comforting to assume that terrible things only happen to people who cause them to happen through their own choices. That is part of what is called the Just World fallacy... and it is a great favorite of successful young people who want to believe that their positive trajectory in life is all due to their hard work, that they have more control over their fate than they actually do. Assuming that those who fail are almost always at fault makes you feel more secure that you won't find yourself on the wrong side of fortune. After all, you have control over the choices you make, and so you can protect yourself by just making the right choices.

But the truth is that there is a certain risk of random bad things happening and that every day of your life, you are exposed to some miniscule fraction of that risk. On any given day, that risk is so vanishingly small that it can be entirely discounted, but the 7-10 years of med school and residency adds up to a lot of dice rolls. There are a number of illnesses, mental and physical, which are especially likely to present during these years. Some periods are more vulnerable than others, like intern year. If you don't finish intern year, you can't get a license at all, even though you completed medical school. Programs do not have to provide an intern who became ill or injured with an opportunity to return the next year. Finding a new internship may not be so easy, if you can't find someone to take a chance on you.

So, if you have your first round of MS, or leukemia, or breast cancer... those don't have to be permanently disabling but they can knock you off the path. Mental health is even more stigmatized, and there are people who will straight argue that a physician with well controlled mental illness still shouldn't be permitted to practice, because what if... Those aren't things that never happen. You just don't hear about them so much when they do, and that helps build your confirmation bias and reinforce your belief in the Just World fallacy.

In other industries, you can get a second chance. Medicine is set up so that if you don't get through that vulnerable 7-10 years more or less on time with very little disruption, you may not ever get to try again, no matter how capable or deserving or whatevs. There are a few periods that are especially tense... like intern year. If you don't complete your intern year, you can't get a license. And you may find yourself unable to locate an opportunity to resolve that, no matter how capable or virtuous or deserving you may be. Residency spots are an artificially limited resource and when there is always a new cohort of fresh grads who don't have a complicated backstory who want them just as bad. Business opportunities are not limited in the same way. Indeed, it is the nature of entrepreneurialism that if there isn't already a job waiting for you that you create your own opportunity out of thin air. Yes, that takes some brains and effort and luck, but if you fail it, you can always go again... there is no limit on attempts, like there is with taking Step exams.

I don't blame you for wanting to look away from the uncomfortable thought that you might, through no fault of your own, have the door to your dreams slammed shut in your face. If I hadn't seen it happen to a few people, I'd rather not acknowledge it either. But you do yourself and those who are in that situation a disservice by pretending that anyone is so virtuous as to be safe from misfortune.

When did I say that "terrible things only happen to people who cause them to happen through their own choices"? I never said that every single person who fails does so because its their own fault. I know the world isn't fair and I know that Just World Theory isn't true. I know different people have different disadvantages and advantages that are beyond their control. Your post is extremely condescending and assumes I have a very naive world view. I said that in most cases of failure in which a person loses the opportunity to become a doctor completely, it is their fault (emphasis on the MOST). I already acknowledged this in an earlier post, and you even bolded the part where I said "outside of really extreme circumstances."

When doing a comparative cost-benefit analysis between the risks and rewards of both paths, medicine is still the safer path for 99% of people. There is that 1% that will be affected by a debilitating disease and get knocked off that path, but such circumstances are rare and do not occur to the vast majority of people that are training and there is an even smaller likelihood of someone being diagnosed with something like that in a specific year such as intern year. The likelihood of such a diagnosis or event completely preventing someone from becoming a practicing physician is even smaller. When comparing 2 paths, it doesn't make sense to compare the minority of unlikely scenarios in which something horrible can happen in both paths. Rather, it makes sense to look to the most likely scenario. Furthermore, the likelihood of someone being diagnosed with MS or leukemia or something else bad happening to them during their intern year is the same likelihood as them being diagnosed with the disease the year their budding business is taking off. It's easy for you to say "if you fail it, you can always go again... there is no limit on attempts," but entrepreneurship isn't that easy. Budding entrepreneurs don't just have an unlimited supply of money to keep trying and trying if their businesses fail. Many people take out loans to start a business and when that business fails their loans still exist. They can't simply take out more and more loans. There is a limit to entrepreneurship unless you're already rich.

I am not "pretending that anyone is so virtuous as to be safe from misfortune." All I'm saying is that people have an equal likelihood of risk of facing such misfortune regardless of what career they choose. Facing such misfortune as an entrepreneur is not any easier than facing it as a physician in training. Medicine is still the safer path all things being equal.
 
Top