What is it with people and D.Os ?

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OP, just ignore them. Once you're a physician, it's not like your job title will be "DO". You can just say you're a doctor/surgeon/whatever specialty

Out of curiosity, is EM medicine considered IM? Can DO's realistically match into EM? I've done some research, just looking into more insight.

EM is not IM. You match into EM, and yes DOs can match into EM. Where I work the Emergency Department Director is a DO. So whoever thinks they're less qualified has no idea what they're talking about, cause this guy is in charge of EVERYBODY including MDs.
 
They look at xrays, CT, MRI, nuclear studies, PET scans, ultrasound, and mammography. They don't actually take the images. They just read them in their office. Radiologist can also do a fellowship in interventional radiology where they can perform procedures on patients, like placing drains, stents, taking biopsies, etc.They're kind of like surgeons. It's a cool field.

😕
 
Is it difficult to become an ophthalmologist if you're a DO?
 
Is it difficult to become an ophthalmologist if you're a DO?

Difficulty is relative. I'm guessing there are not many gunners in DO school, and the competitive specialties self select. If you're at the top of your class, and top COMLEX, as well as a hard worker (which goes hand in hand with other things) you can do it. Also DOs have the option of entering both matches. So you can gun for ophthalmology, and then something more safe in the ACGME match. I think this is a better deal than MD applicants have actually if you don't want to do primary care, because AOA match pulls from a pool of poorer test takers who self select into a system that promotes primary care.
 
For all we know the guy could be a House wannabe ...

Dr-Gregory-House-Squeesh-160747156
 
Difficulty is relative. I'm guessing there are not many gunners in DO school, and the competitive specialties self select. If you're at the top of your class, and top COMLEX, as well as a hard worker (which goes hand in hand with other things) you can do it. Also DOs have the option of entering both matches. So you can gun for ophthalmology, and then something more safe in the ACGME match. I think this is a better deal than MD applicants have actually if you don't want to do primary care, because AOA match pulls from a pool of poorer test takers who self select into a system that promotes primary care.

There are DOs in some of the top ophthamology residencies in the country. There are multiple DOs who have completed ophthamology related fellowships at MGH.

I do not think ACGME ophto is as anti-DO as people think.
 
There are DOs in some of the top ophthamology residencies in the country. There are multiple DOs who have completed ophthamology related fellowships at MGH.

I do not think ACGME ophto is as anti-DO as people think.

That wasn't my point.
 
Plus the radiologist and radiation oncologist have specific training to deal with radiation. So they understand what to do to minimize risk more so than docs in other fields that are also exposed to high levels.

yep

Don't radiologists just look at x ray scans and operate the machinery ? Do you need a strong physics back ground ?

no to the first question, dunno to the second

I am pretty sure a doctor in radiology does ultrasound, x-rays, nuclear medicine, MRI, and PET (which is typically considered nuclear medicine). But I could be wrong.

As for operating machinery? I believe techs do all of that. A strong physics background is likely unnecessary unless the school teaches it.

Dx rads reads 99 to 100% of the imaging modalities.

Techs do most of the ground-level work with patients. RAs are next on the list if they're available.
 
There are DOs in some of the top ophthamology residencies in the country. There are multiple DOs who have completed ophthamology related fellowships at MGH.

I do not think ACGME ophto is as anti-DO as people think.

Any chance you know which programs? I know U of Arizona took a DO recently, but other than that I don't know an ACGME program that has.
 
Any chance you know which programs? I know U of Arizona took a DO recently, but other than that I don't know an ACGME program that has.

UMich and UChicago are the first that come to mind. There are other university programs who have DOs in their programs.
 
It's a lack of presence. There aren't DOs on TV, the title of MD is the only one popularly associated with medicine. This leads people to believe that DOs are less qualified, less privileged, and aren't "real doctors." Little do they know they have probably seen several DOs in their lifetime.

THIS.

I think we should all petition that Dr. Oz or the show "the doctors" do a segment on DO's. Then people would get in the game and i think it'd be great for us long term. Dr Oz could sell an ashtray to a nonsmoker.
 
I see a lot of SDNers who are gunning for Radiology. You might be able to land a residency for Radiology, but its harder to land an actual job in Radiology. This is because a lot of hospitals have been outsourcing their Diagnostics departments to countries with cheaper labor, like India for example. You may find yourself board certified but no job. If you're really interested in Radiology, Rad-Onc or Interventional Radiology is the way to go.
 
THIS.

I think we should all petition that Dr. Oz or the show "the doctors" do a segment on DO's. Then people would get in the game and i think it'd be great for us long term. Dr Oz could sell an ashtray to a nonsmoker.
I've seen DO doctors on The Doctors before. In fact, one of their special guests was a DO dermatologist. Definitely agree that a special segment talking about DOs would be very helpful for awareness.
 
I see a lot of SDNers who are gunning for Radiology. You might be able to land a residency for Radiology, but its harder to land an actual job in Radiology. This is because a lot of hospitals have been outsourcing their Diagnostics departments to countries with cheaper labor, like India for example. You may find yourself board certified but no job. If you're really interested in Radiology, Rad-Onc or Interventional Radiology is the way to go.

No they haven't. Outsourcing to India would be a legal disaster. Radiology jobs are outsourced to US companies like Nighthawk, and I believe that on-sight radiologists are still required to review the telerads work. I don't even know if this is a widespread phenomena -- I think outsourcing is mostly done during the night, if a hospital doesn't feel like paying a premium for a night-shift radiologist. If you're basing this "the sky is falling!" perspective on posts from the radiology subforum, you're crazy. You shouldn't base an entire labor market off isolated anecdotes from just a few geographic regions.
 
No they haven't. Outsourcing to India would be a legal disaster. Radiology jobs are outsourced to US companies like Nighthawk, and I believe that on-sight radiologists are still required to review the telerads work. I don't even know if this is a widespread phenomena -- I think outsourcing is mostly done during the night, if a hospital doesn't feel like paying a premium for a night-shift radiologist. If you're basing this "the sky is falling!" perspective on posts from the radiology subforum, you're crazy. You shouldn't base an entire labor market off isolated anecdotes from just a few geographic regions.

My thoughts exactly. What do you suppose the consequences might be if the final read was done abroad by a physician who never trained in the US?
 
No they haven't. Outsourcing to India would be a legal disaster. Radiology jobs are outsourced to US companies like Nighthawk, and I believe that on-sight radiologists are still required to review the telerads work. I don't even know if this is a widespread phenomena -- I think outsourcing is mostly done during the night, if a hospital doesn't feel like paying a premium for a night-shift radiologist. If you're basing this "the sky is falling!" perspective on posts from the radiology subforum, you're crazy. You shouldn't base an entire labor market off isolated anecdotes from just a few geographic regions.

Yep, only Acgme trained doctors can read imaging reports or, at least, give the final report.

The problem with rads is that in the 1990's there was a boom in imagining technology, but a shortage of qualified radiologists, so they increased the number of radiology post graduate spots pretty significantly over the 1990's and 2000's. Now, there are a bunch of radiology grads each year, which would have been fine if reimbursments stayed the way they were in the past, but in recent years the reimbursement for imagining studies has decreased. As a result, radiologists have to work more for the same wage, and instead of hiring new grads established practices are just absorbing the work themselves.

You'll still find a job and make a lot of money as a radiologist...just not as much as you would have 5 or 10 years ago.

Everything goes in trends. 30 years ago the dumbest people in the class went into orthopedics or radiology because they paid like garbage.
 
No they haven't. Outsourcing to India would be a legal disaster. Radiology jobs are outsourced to US companies like Nighthawk, and I believe that on-sight radiologists are still required to review the telerads work. I don't even know if this is a widespread phenomena -- I think outsourcing is mostly done during the night, if a hospital doesn't feel like paying a premium for a night-shift radiologist. If you're basing this "the sky is falling!" perspective on posts from the radiology subforum, you're crazy. You shouldn't base an entire labor market off isolated anecdotes from just a few geographic regions.

My thoughts exactly. What do you suppose the consequences might be if the final read was done abroad by a physician who never trained in the US?

Right on both counts.

If the results were actually misinterpreted and the patient sued, the hospital would need someone to go to court. You can't just get the guy who read the scan in India to come to the United States so easily (plus does person's certifications comply with US standards?). This would mean an easy win for the person that sued. Hence the reason a U.S. trained radiologist is necessary [got this from Law2Doc's post, he deserves the credit].
 
Do you think the DO/MD saga will ever end up like the dental degrees. DDS/DMD,

For pre-dental, dentists, patients, i feel like NO ONE cares about the difference between DDS/DMD. Will the DO/MD debate continue forever?
 
Do you think the DO/MD saga will ever end up like the dental degrees. DDS/DMD,

For pre-dental, dentists, patients, i feel like NO ONE cares about the difference between DDS/DMD. Will the DO/MD debate continue forever?

It will only stop when DO schools are only called College of Medicine instead of College of Osteopathic Medicine. That's just my theory.

Also, when it comes to dentistry, it's just my teeth 😀. When it comes to a surgery or the whole body, some people are a little more paranoid about who intrudes it or handles their life.
 
Well, DDS/DMD is truly semantics- their curricula are the same and they share residencies.

Until that happens, I don't think the debate will stop.
 
It will only stop when DO schools are only called College of Medicine instead of College of Osteopathic Medicine. That's just my theory.

Also, when it comes to dentistry, it's just my teeth 😀. When it comes to a surgery or the whole body, some people are a little more paranoid about who intrudes it or handles their life.

On a related note, are you allowed to say you're a "medical student" if you are an OMS1? I mean, do you specify that you're an OMS1 or do you just say medical student?
 
On a related note, are you allowed to say you're a "medical student" if you are an OMS1? I mean, do you specify that you're an OMS1 or do you just say medical student?

When I was interviewing for residency some people asked why I didnt go to medical school. I think some people view them as the same and some don't.
 
When I was interviewing for residency some people asked why I didnt go to medical school. I think some people view them as the same and some don't.

You mean PDs asked you, or random people who aren't in the medical field?
 
Of course it is medical school! Same curriculum + some
 
Don't radiologists just look at x ray scans and operate the machinery ? Do you need a strong physics back ground ?

radiologists look at much more than xrays. They do MRI, CT, US, PET, and Nuclear med studies as well as plain films.

I rotated with an INTERVENTIONAL Radiologist. They do CT guided biopsies (liver, lung, kidney, etc), place Central Lines, do arterial dye studies, do venous dye studies, do lymph studies, place stents in occluding arteries, place coils via the vasculature in large tumors in vascular organs like the kidney, liver, and aneurysms in the brain. Place bridging stents across large aortic aneurysms, etc. Oversee barium swallow and Small bowel follow through (SBFT), voiding cystourethrograms, etc.

It's not necessarily all about reading films, there can be a lot of patient interaction. The really good IR guys take care of many arterial problems with their stenting skills saving patients the agony of surgery.
 
When I was interviewing for residency some people asked why I didnt go to medical school. I think some people view them as the same and some don't.

It is funny you mention this. Most people who I tell I am applying to "DO medical schools" ask if I am applying to "medical schools" too. Then after I tell them I have a few interviews, they ask if I got any interviews from "medical schools".

I feel like there is no way to avoid the general views of DO's vs MD's, but it ultimately comes down to how YOU perceive it instead of trying to convince ourselves that MD=DO.
 
Even though this came from a pre-med, a large number of people don't even know the difference between nursing, medical assistant, and medical school. I wouldn't worry about it.

This was my thought exactly. After working in a hospital, I've realized that most patients cannot even make the distinction between P.A.s and Physicians, let alone M.D.s and D.O.s. Nor do they care.
 
This was my thought exactly. After working in a hospital, I've realized that most patients cannot even make the distinction between P.A.s and Physicians, let alone M.D.s and D.O.s. Nor do they care.

.
 
When I was interviewing for residency some people asked why I didnt go to medical school. I think some people view them as the same and some don't.

By physicians? There's doctors out there so dumb that they think people who don't go to medical school can match into their own residency program? Don't you feel kind of better though, when you have to educate the interviewer on their own program?
 
By physicians? There's doctors out there so dumb that they think people who don't go to medical school can match into their own residency program? Don't you feel kind of better though, when you have to educate the interviewer on their own program?

There are a lot of dumb doctors out there who just got into med school because of their hard work
 
Could be one of those or even all three of them. Could have even been from his parents or one of his friends. I know people who have given up on med school and pursued other things because they refused to take the DO route. It's interesting how people get things so ingrained in their minds that they will sacrifice their future for an idea.

...It baffles me how instead of practicing medicine as a DO, people will just give up medical school in general. But whatever, more spots for us :meanie:

Its best when those people don't make it. They weren't meant to be doctors anyways. If all they wanted was prestige, they can go somewhere else. If they want to practice medicine, it doesn't matter where they go (MD, DO, Carib), just that they get through the training.

Is that what most D.Os are ? I mean the D.O I'm currently shadowing is in internal medicine

Most residencies are in the primary care fields. IM and FM have the biggest number of residency spots in both AOA and ACGME residencies. Many people subspecialize though, so the actual result might be fewer PCPs.

DOs do, however, tend to be more in primary care. There is a reason why the biggest DO schools are also up there with being some of the biggest PCP producers.

He says that his brother in laws are burn doctors and that they said d.os don't have much going for them.

What does that mean? Don't have much going for them? They get the same salaries and do the same work as MDs, so I don't know what he means. If he means getting into a good residency, that's very doable as a DO, just make sure its not some crazy surgical subspecialty. I mean its not like every MD has every opportunity under the sun. A US MD from a low-tier school that just barely passes his boards wouldn't end up in a surgical subspecialty either.

He might be right, but only for his location.

My aunt works as a nurse at UPMC Presbyterian Hospital in Pittsburgh, PA, which is a very large hospital that does tons of research. She says that she hasn't seen very many DO in her 25+ years of being there. If I recall, she remembered only seeing one in recent years.

Unfortunately, old habits seem to die hard, and location is a major decider in where DO's get jobs it seems.

UPMC has some attitude towards DOs (LECOM more specifically). DOs match and work at UPMC sites all the time though. Granted its not usually Presby or Montefiore, but there are some DOs in Magee-Womens, Shadyside, St. Margaret's, etc. Not to mention Mercy, which had a ton of DOs and some DO residencies. Realistically though, most big hospital DOs in Pittsburgh are a part of the AGH/West Penn system, but they also have a bunch of MD and DO residencies, so that may be why.

The real problem is that with UPMC (and probably many places) this is very PD-specific. Some PDs just have a rule of not accepting DOs or FMGs. Some just don't accept FMGs. It really varies. That said, I know some SGU graduates that matched in a UPMC site.

You know what they say, DO > MD

(not srs 😀)

DO has the and one.

Guys, come on, if you're going to say it, say it right. DO = MD+ 🙂laugh:, I mean you can't spell doctor without DO, right? right??)
 
Presby is significantly better than the other umpc hospitals. They aren't even in the same league. Presby takes DOs for radiology and anesthesia every year and a few others peppered in, but that's about it.
 
On a related note, are you allowed to say you're a "medical student" if you are an OMS1? I mean, do you specify that you're an OMS1 or do you just say medical student?

FWIW, my school refers to us as MS1 all the time, on paperwork, handouts, etc. And our student IDs say 'Medical Student.'

When I was interviewing for residency some people asked why I didnt go to medical school. I think some people view them as the same and some don't.

Wow, I would have been really tempted to look at them in the eye and say, "I did."
 
Presby is significantly better than the other umpc hospitals. They aren't even in the same league. Presby takes DOs for radiology and anesthesia every year and a few others peppered in, but that's about it.

Presby is definitely the flagship. As you said they do seem to like DOs for very specific programs and simply don't for others, and obviously prestige-wise its much better (pretty much what people mean when they say "UPMC"), but its not like all the other sites are terrible or something (some are - but I wouldn't mind being in Shadyside, Children's for peds, or MW for OB/GYN). I'd imagine there would still be quite a few job opportunities and connections coming out of those places.

By the way, did you apply to/interview at Presby for gas? If so, what kind of impression did you get of the place as a whole?
 
Presby is definitely the flagship. As you said they do seem to like DOs for very specific programs and simply don't for others, and obviously prestige-wise its much better (pretty much what people mean when they say "UPMC"), but its not like all the other sites are terrible or something (some are - but I wouldn't mind being in Shadyside, Children's for peds, or MW for OB/GYN). I'd imagine there would still be quite a few job opportunities and connections coming out of those places.

By the way, did you apply to/interview at Presby for gas? If so, what kind of impression did you get of the place as a whole?

Yep, I did. It's a super nice hospital. They have lots of money, good training, and Pittsburg is a pretty cool city. I think i would have been happy there and I ranked it pretty high.
 
I've seen DO doctors on The Doctors before. In fact, one of their special guests was a DO dermatologist. Definitely agree that a special segment talking about DOs would be very helpful for awareness.


So I checked the Dr. Oz show website for a comment section. Under contact us you can put in an idea for a segment. Maybe if enough of us comment in that we would like a segment on DOs, the show might feel inclined to do it... Just a thought.
 
So I checked the Dr. Oz show website for a comment section. Under contact us you can put in an idea for a segment. Maybe if enough of us comment in that we would like a segment on DOs, the show might feel inclined to do it... Just a thought.

They have already had a couple segments on OMT alone. Plus they occasionally have DOs on there from other medical specialties. It doesn't seem like a regular occurrence, but I don't watch the show and only pick up what little bits of info people post on here.
 
I don't think "DO awareness" really matters. Employers just care about your board certifications and where you trained. I guess if you were trying to start a solo practice it might be more of an issue, but most people are clueless.
 
They have already had a couple segments on OMT alone. Plus they occasionally have DOs on there from other medical specialties. It doesn't seem like a regular occurrence, but I don't watch the show and only pick up what little bits of info people post on here.

Here's the link to the thread about the Dr. Oz segment about HVLA:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=900827

The OMM part is at 2 mins in of this video:
http://www.doctoroz.com/videos/cutting-edge-pain-solutions-pt-2

The DO uses a "shotgun" thoracic HVLA method in which she treats several segments at one time... but I wish she would have diagnosed the spine before treating it, explaining what she felt and why her treatment helped. Either way some good solid mainstream exposure for OMM.
 
I see a lot of SDNers who are gunning for Radiology. You might be able to land a residency for Radiology, but its harder to land an actual job in Radiology. This is because a lot of hospitals have been outsourcing their Diagnostics departments to countries with cheaper labor, like India for example. You may find yourself board certified but no job. If you're really interested in Radiology, Rad-Onc or Interventional Radiology is the way to go.
Sigh.
 
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