What Is the Average Fellowship Salary?

Discussion in 'General Residency Issues' started by saffron, Mar 16, 2002.

  1. saffron

    saffron Senior Member

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    i know for many subspecialities like cardio, ENT, etc. you have to do 3 yrs. of internal medicine residency then 3-4 "fellowship." I know that avg. residency salaries are 35K...but what about for fellowships? if it's the same, thats at least 6 years of training AFTER med school for practically min. wage...

    i might be interested in doing a subspeciality, but i dont want to be making 35K until I'm 30!! how do ppl even make their loan payments off of that salary for so long?

    any thoughts/comments about the subject in general or info. on fellowship salaries would be appreciated...

    thanks in advance :)
     
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  3. mpp

    mpp SDN Moderator
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    Here is the stipend schedule for post-graduate training at the Mayo Clinic for 2002. I assume other places are similar.

    PGY-1 $36,865
    PGY-2 $38,488
    PGY-3 $40,118
    PGY-4 $41,940
    PGY-5 $43,780
    PGY-6 $45,599
    PGY-7 $47,295
    PGY-8 $49,061
    PGY-9 $50,822

    So you move up in pay each year (and I would imagine the whole scale moves as well over time so that the yearly increases might be a little more than this each year). You can defer most loans during residency. Some people will pay the loan interest only while in residency.

    Your pay once you complete a fellowship can be vastly higher (perhaps double or more) than if you had only completed a 3-year primary care residency. That constitutes a lot more money over a full career.
     
  4. saffron

    saffron Senior Member

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    thanks for the info mpp

    the salary goes up, but it's still pretty low...

    so from a strictly monatary viewpoint (and i know there are other factors), wouldn't make the most sense to go into a speciality that has a high pay after residency (so not primary care or peds), but doesnt require as many years of training/fellowship?

    like if you did emergency medicine or derm- you have only 4 years training and min. wage residency pay, but then in year 5, you are getting avg. salary (around 170 K for ER docs). but with cardiology, surgery, etc you are still in training for a looong time after that.

    is it just me or is anyone else thinking about these things?
     
  5. Jim Picotte

    Jim Picotte Senior Member

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    If you're only thinking in monetary terms. I also thought most EM residencies were 3 not 4 years and I always thought that this specialty gave you the most money for all the 3 year residencies.

    You have to do what you love anyway as no one can really predict what the salaries are going to be even after their residencies.
     
  6. mpp

    mpp SDN Moderator
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    I am certainly putting some thought into it. And although I have ideas now, I am not set on any particular field yet. I need to see what fields I will enjoy, and what fields I can perform best (hopefully these will be the same). Once I've narrowed it down some perhaps the money issue will really come into play.

    If you are interested in physician finances, check out <a href="http://www.memag.com/be_core/m/index.jsp" target="_blank">Medical Economics</a> magazine.
     
  7. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by saffron:
    <strong>thanks for the info mpp

    the salary goes up, but it's still pretty low...
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't forget about those fellowships that offer no financial reimbursement for training. (Well, what is offered is fringe.)
     
  8. saffron

    saffron Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by neutropeniaboy:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by saffron:
    <strong>thanks for the info mpp

    the salary goes up, but it's still pretty low...
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't forget about those fellowships that offer no financial reimbursement for training. (Well, what is offered is fringe.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">are there some fellowships that offer financial reimbursement? in what form...please elaborate...
     
  9. neutropeniaboy

    neutropeniaboy Blasted ENT Attending

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by saffron:
    <strong>are there some fellowships that offer financial reimbursement? in what form...please elaborate...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I mean they don't get paid.
     
  10. ckent

    ckent Banned
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    Yeah, my parents have a friend who decided to do a pulmonary fellowship at Hopkins w/ no pay, he had to live off of moonlighting pay. If you can afford it, sometimes I think it helps you get into a program if you can do it without pay.
     
  11. saffron

    saffron Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by neutropeniaboy:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by saffron:
    <strong>are there some fellowships that offer financial reimbursement? in what form...please elaborate...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I mean they don't get paid.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">oh, i get it. :)
     
  12. njbmd

    njbmd Guest
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by saffron:
    <strong>i know for many subspecialities like cardio, ENT, etc. you have to do 3 yrs. of internal medicine residency then 3-4 "fellowship." :) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hi there,
    ENT is not a sub-specialty of internal medicine. ENT is a surgical specialty with its own match(Early Match or SF Match). ENT does not require a surgical residency before matching.

    Cardiology is a fellowship above Internal Medicine or Pediatrics. The nice thing about doing a fellowship is that fellowships are less demanding in terms of hours thus moonlighting is a distinct possibility. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  13. Future GI Guy

    Future GI Guy Hoo Hoo....

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    I think it would be difficult to take a fellowship in Cardiology or Pulmonary that didn't offer pay.

    As for the other fellowships, Hem Onc, Endocrinology, Infectious DZ, you could make it work by supplementing with Moonlighting pay.

    If you had a "clinic" fellowship that offered weekends off, essentially, you could work weekends.

    Consider working every weekend a month as a moonlighter. So, that's 8 days, times 12 hours a shift, times 60 bucks an hour. That equals: 5760 per month. That comes to almonst 70,000 dollars a year in "supplementary pay."

    Now, for those who think 60 bucks an hour is way to high, believe me, it's not. Around here, you can work for several LARGE nursing homes or even a local county jail and make that much.

    If you want to work at the ER in the sticks, (which we have plenty in mid-missouri), you can easily make that much in moonlighting pay.

    Is it a sacrifice? Sure, but during non-busy fellowships (like Endocrine or I.D.) you might have weekends off, and may not even have to take overnight in-house call.

    Also, someone said that fellowships are 3-4 years. That's not completely accurate. Cardio and GI are 3 years. Hem-Onc is 2 or 3 depending on if you want to get certified in one or two of those specialties. The others (endocrine, I.D. etc) are 2 year fellowships. I don't know of fellowships that are 4 years, unless you do even more like Interventional Cardiology, Electrophysiology, etc.
     
  14. Atlas

    Atlas Senior Member

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    I had no idea that endocrine was considered a "non-busy" fellowship. I can only base that on my experiences with an Endocrinologist in my area. He's always in the hospital working with diabetes patients or any other patient that requires his services. I mean he's literally ALWAYS there. Is that how it is with all endocrinologists? Is Nephrology considered to be a "non-busy" fellowship as well?

    Atlas
     
  15. Future GI Guy

    Future GI Guy Hoo Hoo....

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    Atlas,

    Perhaps I did generalize too much...

    I based my statements on the fact that a cardiology fellowship is alot like hell, in that the fellows are ALMOST ALWAYS on call...

    The other fellowships are generally not as busy as Cardiology, and generally do not require overnight IN-HOUSE call (though most require at home call...I think).
     
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  17. rajneel1

    rajneel1 Senior Member

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    "i might be interested in doing a subspeciality, but i dont want to be making 35K until I'm 30!! how do ppl even make their loan payments off of that salary for so long?"

    ummm....you probably won't even graduate from your residency by the time you are 30. and you won't hit your big money probably until you are in your mid 30s.
    you do medical school which you pay for
    you do residency which you get paid for (3-7 years)
    you do fellowship which you usually get paid for (2-4 years)
    then you practice for like $120,000
    then after say 3-5 years with board certification your salary may double in certain specialities (ie. graduting from neurosurgery you will earn like $100,000....three years later...$420,000)

    the more you are in medicine the more you earn.
     
  18. Future GI Guy

    Future GI Guy Hoo Hoo....

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    Actually, if I did a 3 year residency, I'd be done at 29 years old.

    Not everyone will be 30.
     
  19. quaileggs

    quaileggs Senior Member

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    Yeah not everyone will be 30 after finishing a 3 year residency. I will be 39! :) . And the difference between 29 and 30 is insignificant so really what is your point?
     
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  20. brownman

    brownman Member

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    Let's see,

    First of all:

    wherever Rajneel1 is practicing, avoid that area like the plague. Does not sound very appetizing in terms of compensation. A 100,000 for a starting neurosurgeon in private practice...yikes...well, that's what you get for being in california

    The average med school debt is approximately 100,000:%
    10 year loans at 8.5 (which is not the going rate, but...): comes out to about a 1,000 a month if you want to pay it off during medschool (which you won't because you will defer it forever and a day).

    Residency on average is about 38,000 - 40 G in pay, fellowship maybe a few thousand higher.

    It's a big sacrifice...but at least you'll be in a stable job that you love, and get paid pretty well for it. The reality is to be the kind of wealthy where money is no problem for you would require that you take massive risk. That's the only way, outside of being born into it, that these things can happen. If you want to be a banker and make money...you will either be: a) the guy who makes millions, who went to the right school and then got in on the right deal and stayed with the bank, etc., etc. or b) the guy who manages your local bank and approves your loans...does good some years, bad in others. Medicine is a nice, stable, well paying job that you can get without luck or chance, but through hard work. You don't have to go to the top school (like lawyers), and you get to help people...and you get paid a buttload to do it. Yes, putting up with residency sucks big...but...every stage has it's positives. In med school, I hated no responsibility. In residency, I'm sure I'm going to despise excessive hours and limited pay...and when I'm an attending I'm going to have difficulty with the repetition and boredom that are associated with anything in medicine that's lucrative. But, I get to choose my life...choose where I want to live..what kind of practice I want to work in..and what type of life I want to have. Those are all great options...and if I hate it...I'll get involved with businesses on the side and maybe get a business degree and do some venture work. Basically, what I'm saying is...DO THE FELLOWSHIP YOU WANT TO...don't factor in the time..in the whole kernel of it all..it won't matter. Whether you start practicing in your early late twenties, early thirties, late thirties...whether you made all your money in your 60's or your 20's...do what makes you happy. If you're in medicine for the money...you are going to hate it. I gaurantee you that...

    sorry lecture...if you don't want to do a fellowship that is your perrogative...but...the opportunity cost of those few extra years..isn't going to mean much in the end...you'll recoup the cost in no time. My friend and I graduated med school at the same time...and I've been running my own company for a few years..and he's been a resident...when I start my residency next year...it will take him just in salary about two years to catch up to me...so in the end, who made the better decision. We both did..he did what he likes...I did what I liked. Hope that works out the same way for you.
     
  21. NuMD97

    NuMD97 Senior Member

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    Originally posted by njbmd:

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Cardiology is a fellowship above Internal Medicine or Pediatrics. The nice thing about doing a fellowship is that fellowships are less demanding in terms of hours thus moonlighting is a distinct possibility. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Tell that, please, to a friend of mine who's a second year cardiology fellow. She can barely hold up her head after leaving the hospital for the night, let alone even think about moonlighting. :)
     

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