what is the best way to become interventional neuroradiologist?

[lifemaker]

Hello, this is my first participation in this forum.
I am medical student in my final year, interesting in interventional neuroradiology and neurology. But I read alot of discussion about the competitive nature of radiology.
My question: is it possible to go to Interventional neuroradiology through neurology program ( not neurosurgery program ).
Please inform me...

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[Docxter]

Hello, this is my first participation in this forum.
I am medical student in my final year, interesting in interventional neuroradiology and neurology. But I read alot of discussion about the competitive nature of radiology.
My question: is it possible to go to Interventional neuroradiology through neurology program ( not neurosurgery program ).
Please inform me...

Yes. First do internship year + neurology residency + vascular neurology fellowship. Then you can apply to neuroendovascular fellowships.

 

[lifemaker]

Yes. First do internship year + neurology residency + vascular neurology fellowship. Then you can apply to neuroendovascular fellowships.

Thank you very much for your response, but how long each program will take? and do you know any active INR programm, accept neurologists as candidate for interventional neuroradiology(INR)?

 

[dphoenix]

INR programs will take neurologists who have done a stroke fellowship, but my understanding is that they take radiologists first, so you better be an outstanding neurologist with great recs.

Also, don't forget that after 6 years of training, you will not be board certified in radiology which is required to have hospital privileges with most radiology groups in the country.

Think carefully before you choose neuro if you really want to do INR; its definitely not a backdoor and most likely you will end up doing neuro. i think neurosurg or radiology is much better and worth the effort if INR is your end-goal.

 

[hans19]

Hello, this is my first participation in this forum.
I am medical student in my final year, interesting in interventional neuroradiology and neurology. But I read alot of discussion about the competitive nature of radiology.
My question: is it possible to go to Interventional neuroradiology through neurology program ( not neurosurgery program ).
Please inform me...

Yes, neurologists can apply to the field, but they are at a huge disadvantage and face an uphill battle compared to radiology and neurosurgery applicants.

The best way in the future, to get into the field, IMO is neurosurgery > Radiology >> neurology.

When a patient comes in with a ruptured aneurysm with SAH, neurosurgeons will be consulted first. Also they can take care of complications and do IVDs and craniotomies (but if it comes to a craniotomy, chances are your patient isn't going to do well AT ALL). In the future they will be very well positioned in the field if it comes down to a turf war. For the time being, there are few radiologists and fewer neurosurgeons who are pursuing this field, there should be room for everyone for some time to come. As it is now most INR programs are run by neuroradiologists, or co administered by neuroradiologists and neurosurgeons. Rads and NSs will be favored over the neurology applicant.

Neurologists do not have the catheter skills or fluoroscopy skills and are at a huge disadvantage compared to other applicants. Radiologists should know the anatomy and fluoro as second nature. Neurosurgeons too have a knowledge of the anatomy and have rudimentary fluoro exposure from the spine work that they do.

True, neurologists they have the advantage in stroke care, but only a subset of INR patients are embolic stroke patients. Overall, neurosurgeons are well suited to take care of the sickest of the sick. My advice is that if you are serious about the field consider neurosurgery or radiology depending on what your interests are. Neurology is a distant third.

Hans

 

[lifemaker]

Yes, neurologists can apply to the field, but they are at a huge disadvantage and face an uphill battle compared to radiology and neurosurgery applicants.

The best way in the future, to get into the field, IMO is neurosurgery > Radiology >> neurology.

When a patient comes in with a ruptured aneurysm with SAH, neurosurgeons will be consulted first. Also they can take care of complications and do IVDs and craniotomies (but if it comes to a craniotomy, chances are your patient isn't going to do well AT ALL). In the future they will be very well positioned in the field if it comes down to a turf war. For the time being, there are few radiologists and fewer neurosurgeons who are pursuing this field, there should be room for everyone for some time to come. As it is now most INR programs are run by neuroradiologists, or co administered by neuroradiologists and neurosurgeons. Rads and NSs will be favored over the neurology applicant.

Neurologists do not have the catheter skills or fluoroscopy skills and are at a huge disadvantage compared to other applicants. Radiologists should know the anatomy and fluoro as second nature. Neurosurgeons too have a knowledge of the anatomy and have rudimentary fluoro exposure from the spine work that they do.

True, neurologists they have the advantage in stroke care, but only a subset of INR patients are embolic stroke patients. Overall, neurosurgeons are well suited to take care of the sickest of the sick. My advice is that if you are serious about the field consider neurosurgery or radiology depending on what your interests are. Neurology is a distant third.

Hans

Thank you for your golden advises. Really it is nice forum and nice members
I have more questions:
What is the future for INR, do you think it will be master by neurosurgeons or INRs???
What is the competitive nature of neurosurgery?

 

[hans19]

Thank you for your golden advises. Really it is nice forum and nice members
I have more questions:
What is the future for INR, do you think it will be master by neurosurgeons or INRs???
What is the competitive nature of neurosurgery?

In 20-30 years, I think INR will be mostly done by neurosurgeons. If stroke intervention ever takes off, that aspect may be managed by neurologists.

If you are interested in neurosurgery, it may be better to ask your question in the neurosurgery forum.

Radiology and neurosurgery are competitive fields, neurology is much less competitive. After the residencies it is relatively easy to get into INR as a radiologist or neurosurgeon, and much more difficult as a neurologist.

Are you per chance an IMG? If not forgive me. If you happen to be an IMG and you truly want to practice INR in the US, it may be easier for you to get your foot in the door through neurology (more IMG friendly) than radiology or neurosurgery. Then work really hard, do a stroke fellowship and try to get into an INR fellowship.

Good luck.

 

[danielmd06]

I mostly agree with Hans.

The current *best* pathway to this fellowship is definitely through a Radiology residency.

I think we will gradually see more Neurologists filling these positions than some people think. There is a generalized lack of interest among the majority of Radiology residents for these fellowships - and this goes for Neurosurgery residents as well. Much of this relates to lifestyle and financial possibilities available in both areas of medicine that are lacking in Neurology.

As more competitive and aggressive Neurology applicants percolate through the system and apply for ESN positions, they will come to be more accepted. For now, they are a distant third in the application process.

In the meantime, the Neurology resident wishing to pursue these fellowships rightfully and most certainly needs to demonstrate competency in standing with the other multi-disciplinary applicants.

 

[lifemaker]

I mostly agree with Hans.

The current *best* pathway to this fellowship is definitely through a Radiology residency.

I think we will gradually see more Neurologists filling these positions than some people think. There is a generalized lack of interest among the majority of Radiology residents for these fellowships - and this goes for Neurosurgery residents as well. Much of this relates to lifestyle and financial possibilities available in both areas of medicine that are lacking in Neurology.

As more competitive and aggressive Neurology applicants percolate through the system and apply for ESN positions, they will come to be more accepted. For now, they are a distant third in the application process.

In the meantime, the Neurology resident wishing to pursue these fellowships rightfully and most certainly needs to demonstrate competency in standing with the other multi-disciplinary applicants.

Thank you very much for interactions.
I have new news regarding INR or ESN fellowships. Now it is bossible to go to ESN or INR after finishing neurology residency. I believe that in the next 5 years the ESN will occupied by neurosurgeons and neurologists.
you can visit this website: www.svineuro.org to see the active fellowship programs available for neurologists.

I have difficult question:
For me as medical student (final year), do you advise me to go to neurology residency and by the meantime ( say after 6 years from now ), it will be easy for me to apply for ESN or INR??
Really I am in big dilemma to take my final dicision

 

[typhoonegator]

Honestly, it is very easy to overthink yourself when considering these options. You really should take the path which interests you the most. It is more than a little presumptuous to think you know what sort of post-fellowship job you think you will want to have before you even apply for residency. Who knows what will happen along the way.

If you really want to become a neuroIR guy/gal, then take the path which suits your interest. If you love the imaging aspects of the decision-making process, then go to a radiology residency. If you like the part about getting inside someone's head, then do a neurosurgery residency. If you are interested in stroke management and neurointervention as an extension of that, then do a neurology residency and an ICU fellowship.

Seriously, is there a newsgroup out there where people who want to be president argue about the best undergrad major? "Should I do Economics or Poli-Sci? What will the people want?"

 

[Docxter]

I have new news regarding INR or ESN fellowships. Now it is bossible to go to ESN or INR after finishing neurology residency.

True, except that your new news is at least 4-5 years old.

 

[lifemaker]

Honestly, it is very easy to overthink yourself when considering these options. You really should take the path which interests you the most. It is more than a little presumptuous to think you know what sort of post-fellowship job you think you will want to have before you even apply for residency. Who knows what will happen along the way.

If you really want to become a neuroIR guy/gal, then take the path which suits your interest. If you love the imaging aspects of the decision-making process, then go to a radiology residency. If you like the part about getting inside someone's head, then do a neurosurgery residency. If you are interested in stroke management and neurointervention as an extension of that, then do a neurology residency and an ICU fellowship.

Seriously, is there a newsgroup out there where people who want to be president argue about the best undergrad major? "Should I do Economics or Poli-Sci? What will the people want?"

Thank you sir for your advises. I think we are here for helping each other and make new friendships.
Actually, i am interested in both radiology(INR) and neurology. But due to the highly competitive nature of radiology world wide, i started to think again in neurology program (less competitive) as an alternative path to reach my end-goal which is ESN or INR.
This is why i am asking.
Really i am in crossroad....i am final year medical student... i should take my decision, that why i am asking the help.

 

[hans19]

Thank you sir for your advises. I think we are here for helping each other and make new friendships.
Actually, i am interested in both radiology(INR) and neurology. But due to the highly competitive nature of radiology world wide, i started to think again in neurology program (less competitive) as an alternative path to reach my end-goal which is ESN or INR.
This is why i am asking.
Really i am in crossroad....i am final year medical student... i should take my decision, that why i am asking the help.

Which country are you from and where do you want to work?

INR can be through radiology, neurosurgery, or neurology in the United States. If you train in other parts of the world it may not be the case. In Japan, for instance you can only go through this field through neurosurgery.

 

[lifemaker]

 

[lokobo]

Are Interventional Neuroradiologists who come from Neurosurgery or Neurology certified to read brain films?

 

[hans19]

Are Interventional Neuroradiologists who come from Neurosurgery or Neurology certified to read brain films?

If you take the standard for image interpretation with a report, then no neurologists and neurosurgeons can not be board certified by the ABR. Neurologists are coming up with their own criteria for 'neuroimaging' certification which IMO leaves a lot to be desired. You don't need ABR certification to generate a report.

With a medical licence you can legally do what ever you want. I could do an open aneurysm clipping, but that would be insane. An FP could read brain MRs if he felt comfortable doing so and he could probably bill for it, the problem is he must also accept full liability for any misses or misdiagnoses.