What is the difference between medical school and PA curriculum?

[Maya25]

What is the difference between medical school and PA curriculum?

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[HoltMD]

What is the difference between medical school and PA curriculum?

Really?

 

[maybemed2013]

I took a course ( Pre-Health Professions) and I was told that PA school is just a condense medical school... when you calculate the hours of class.. I think PA school is shorter by 20 hrs.

 

[tankgunner]

go to a random med school and a random pa school website. pull their textbook lists and compare

 

[WildEMDoc]

Here are the PA and Med Curriculum from Rush.


PA:

Phase I: Core

Quarter I – Summer Quarter Hours (18)
PAS 510 Human Anatomy 7
PAS 511 Human Physiology 6
PAS 512 History & Physical Examination I 2
PAS 513 PA Professional Issues 1
PAS 514 Diagnostic Methods I 2

Quarter II – Fall Quarter Hours (18)
CHS 502 Research Methods and Statistics 5
HHV 504 Ethics in Healthcare 2
PHR 504 Pharmacology I 3
PAS 521 Clinical Medicine I 5
PAS 522 History & Physical Examination II 3

Quarter III – Winter Quarter Hours (17)
PHR 505 Pharmacology II 3
PAS 530 Microbiology and Infectious Disease 2
PAS 531 Clinical Medicine II 5
PAS 533 Clinical Diagnostic Reasoning 2
PAS 534 Diagnostic Methods II 2
PAS 535 Pediatrics 3

Quarter IV – Spring Quarter Hours (17)
PHR 506 Pharmacology III 3
CHS 510 Health Care in America 2
PAS 541 Clinical Medicine III 5
PAS 542 Fundamentals of Surgery 3
PAS 543 Psychosocial Medicine 1
PAS 545 Emergency Medicine 3

PHASE II – Core Clinical Rotations

Quarter I
PAS 581 Family Medicine 4
PAS 582 Internal Medicine 8

Quarter II
PAS 583 General Surgery 8
PAS 584 Women's Health (OB/GYN) 4
Quarter III

PAS 585 Pediatrics 8
PAS 586 Behavioral Health 4
PAS 587 Long Term Care/Geriatrics 4
Quarter IV

PAS 588 Emergency Medicine 4
PAS 589 Elective Rotation 4
PAS 590 Master's Research Project 2

PHASE III – Advanced Practice Rotations
Quarter I
PAS 590 Advanced Clinical Practice 10

Quarter II
PAS 590 Advanced Clinical Practice 10

Quarter III
PAS 590 Advanced Clinical Practice 10

Medical Curriculum:

MS1
Fall Quarter
ANA 471 Human Anatomy I
ANA 451 Histology
PCM 500 Introduction to the Patient
PCM 511 Interviewing and Communication
PCM 521 Preceptorship Experience I
PVM 531 Introduction to Preventive Medicine
PHY 451 Physiology I

Winter Quarter
ANA 472 Human Anatomy II
BCH 471 Biochemistry I
HHV 581 Ethics in Medicine
PCM 522 Preceptorship Experience II
PHY 452 Physiology II

Spring Quarter
BCH 472 Biochemistry II
BHV 451 Behavioral Science: Fundamentals of Behavior
BHV 453 Behavioral Science: Behavior in the Life Cycle
NEU 451 Neurobiology
PCM 523 Preceptorship Experience III
IMM 505 Immunology (Basic)

MS2
Fall Quarter
HHV 583 Ethics in Medicine
IMM 506 Clinical Immunology
MED 501 Clinical Pathophysiology I
MIC 451 Microbiology Concepts
PCM 507 Introduction: Clinical Skills I
PCM 514 Interviewing and Communication
PCM 524 Preceptorship Experience IV
PHR 501 Medical Pharmacology I
PTH 511 Pathology I

Winter Quarter
MED 502 Clinical Pathophysiology II
MIC 452 Microbiology Concepts II
PCM 505 Physical Diagnosis
PCM 508 Introduction: Clinical Skills II
PCM 525 Preceptorship Experience V
PHR 502 Medical Pharmacology II
PTH 512 Pathology II

Spring Quarter
MED 503 Clinical Pathophysiology III
PCM 505b Physical Diagnosis
PCM 509 Introduction: Clinical Skills III
PCM 526 Preceptorship Experience VI
PSY 501 Introduction to Psychopathology
PTH 513 Pathology III
PVM 505 Epidemiology/Biostatistics

M3 and M4 Years
"The M3 and M4 years provide students with training in clinical skills, diagnosis and patient management in a variety of patient care settings.

A minimum of 78 weeks of clinical experiences is required for graduation. The curriculum includes 50 weeks of required core clerkships in family medicine, internal medicine, neurology, pediatrics, psychiatry, obstetrics/gynecology, surgery and a required senior subinternship. The remaining 28 weeks required for graduation consist of elective study in areas of special interest to each student. The choice of electives is guided by the goal of an educationally-balanced undergraduate experience, guaranteeing further experiences in the medical, surgical and critical care areas."

 

[Maya25]

Thank you! I wanted to know if majority difference was in concepts covered or memorization. Looks like its really just a condensed version of the medical school material.

 

[dblue10]

I don't think you can tell how similar or different studying in each curriculum is just by looking at course titles...

 

[primadonna22274]

Having done both, I can tell you that we cover most of medicine more superficially in PA curriculum, whilst delving into every nauseating detail in medical school. Also, "basic sciences" is an oxymoron.
Clinical curricula are very similar.

 

[sotto voce]

I took a course ( Pre-Health Professions) and I was told that PA school is just a condense medical school... when you calculate the hours of class.. I think PA school is shorter by 20 hrs.

I've heard PA students learn everything med students do, but in less time.

 

[primadonna22274]

No. PAs learn the what and what to do and some of the how and why. Med students learn the how and why first, then the what, what else, and what it isn't or might be if some funky enzyme or gene function was altered. Later in clinical rotations and residency physicians learn what to do It's not nearly as efficient as PA education but more complete.
Now, folks argue, do we really NEED to learn all those pesky biochemical, pathophysiologic, histologic, embryologic and anatomical details to take care of patients safely and effectively? Probably not, which is why PA education works and has worked for 40+ years. But SOMEBODY needs to know it--makes sense that the attending physician and consultants have learned the minutiae for when something unusual turns up.
Medicine is a team sport

I've heard PA students learn everything med students do, but in less time.

 

[tankgunner]

the textbooks are more telling.
most pa students don't study histology, neuroanatomy, embryology, robbins & cotran, and physiology in excruciating detail like med students. not to mention the usmle steps.

 

[primadonna22274]

Agree. Granted, half of my classmates don't read books and don't buy them and choose to get by with PowerPoints and review books.

the textbooks are more telling.
most pa students don't study histology, neuroanatomy, embryology, robbins & cotran, and physiology in excruciating detail like med students. not to mention the usmle.

 

[Maya25]

Having done both, I can tell you that we cover most of medicine more superficially in PA curriculum, whilst delving into every nauseating detail in medical school. Also, "basic sciences" is an oxymoron.
Clinical curricula are very similar.

Which one did you complete first? If you had the choice, would you choose to do one over the other?

 

[jHustle]

Agree. Granted, half of my classmates don't read books and don't buy them and choose to get by with PowerPoints and review books.

And how did that work out for them in regards to usmle?

 

[Dr McSexy]

And how did that work out for them in regards to usmle?

Probably just fine. Official course textbooks contain a lot of extraneous information that will never be tested on the boards. Plus not to mention in taking the time to read them, they will steal your soul.

Can't remember the last time I bought a textbook that wasn't a "review" book. And I haven't bought a review book in a while either.

 

[primadonna22274]

PA school 98-00, just finished first year medical school. Should have gone to med school first (would have been cheaper in the long run!) but didn't know that I could.

Which one did you complete first? If you had the choice, would you choose to do one over the other?

 

[Maya25]

PA school 98-00, just finished first year medical school. Should have gone to med school first (would have been cheaper in the long run!) but didn't know that I could.

I'm 25 and trying to decide which one would be a better choice for me. I find a lot of reasons to do either/or. My only problem with medical school is I would be 32 when I graduate and close to 40 by the time I finish residency - which doesn't leave a lot of opportunity if I decide I want to start a family.

I love the thought of being able to diagnose and the challenges involved with medicine. I don't want to enter a career as a Physician Assistant and find that its not challenging as expected.

 

[primadonna22274]

Sorry I was in a rush. Should have replied that it would make more sense for me to go straight to med school at 24 rather than at 37, but PA was an excellent first career for me. I learned a lot and became steadily more passionate about medicine. If I had been able to "settle" as a PA I would have a very different life, but I never quite got the hang of it. I am actually a bit envious of the majority of happy content PAs who don't have the burning desire to become a physician because this path has taken up so much of my life... But then I suppose this is my life and there is nothing else I really want to do.

 

[primadonna22274]

Ha, well we haven't taken boards yet (just finished M1) but I suspect most will do well enough. I have always liked books so I buy them and have information overload. I did not buy newer editions of classics I bought in PA school though--my Big Robbins Path and Guyton & Hall Med Phys are 14 yr old, although I did receive a new Harrison's and Gray's Anatomy as desk copies while teaching PAs Free books are cool.

And how did that work out for them in regards to usmle?

 

[VisionaryTics]

I'm 25 and trying to decide which one would be a better choice for me. I find a lot of reasons to do either/or. My only problem with medical school is I would be 32 when I graduate and close to 40 by the time I finish residency - which doesn't leave a lot of opportunity if I decide I want to start a family.

I love the thought of being able to diagnose and the challenges involved with medicine. I don't want to enter a career as a Physician Assistant and find that its not challenging as expected.

I know plenty of people that have had kids during medical school. Very doable. Don't let that be a limiting factor on going into medicine.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Having done both, I can tell you that we cover most of medicine more superficially in PA curriculum, whilst delving into every nauseating detail in medical school. Also, "basic sciences" is an oxymoron.
Clinical curricula are very similar.

I worked with a PA that thought she was superior to every doctor that she came into contact with. She insisted that PA's took more hours than medical students.

 

[wholeheartedly]

What is the difference between medical school and PA curriculum?

At least $100,000

 

[wholeheartedly]

I worked with a PA that thought she was superior to every doctor that she came into contact with. She insisted that PA's took more hours than medical students.

Yeah, I'm in an allied health field. While some MDs can be jerks and have superiority complexes and seem to get the worst rep and most suggestions for team oriented training, most of what I actually see seems to be non-MDs doing the most non-teamlike, other profession bashing bs. It seems like a lot of programs indoctrinate people into thinking this way and it's really disappointing.

 

[NightGod]

The PA at my ortho surgeon's office two years ago was telling me that her school was offering any PA who graduated from there and had 5+ years experience the chance to come back and start as a MS3. Do what you will with that information.

 

[Bacchus]

The PA at my ortho surgeon's office two years ago was telling me that her school was offering any PA who graduated from there and had 5+ years experience the chance to come back and start as a MS3. Do what you will with that information.

This would not meet accreditation standards...

 

[primadonna22274]

True. I am in a 3-yr program which saves me $50k but we still do M1 & M2 just like everyone else. Minimum accreditation standard is 132 wk medical school IIRC. Lots of folks argue PAs should be able to "bridge" in 2 yr but having learned everything I've learned in M1 I don't know how that could be done without creating a separate tier of physicians. I don't want that.

P.S. the obnoxious PA mentioned above is an insecure uninformed idiot.

This would not meet accreditation standards...

 

[primadonna22274]

Oh sorry, I don't mean the PA who mentioned her school offered seasoned PAs an M3 spot (although I am curious where that is!) but the loudmouth who thinks PAs are smarter than physicians (and probably else). She would have been a fun student for me

 

[45408]

The PA at my ortho surgeon's office two years ago was telling me that her school was offering any PA who graduated from there and had 5+ years experience the chance to come back and start as a MS3. Do what you will with that information.

Chuckle and disregard.

I've heard PA students learn everything med students do, but in less time.

Yeah....no.

I know plenty of people that have had kids during medical school. Very doable. Don't let that be a limiting factor on going into medicine.

*challenging, but doable, but it gets worse as a resident.

And yes, I've done it (as the father, which is definitely easier than as the mother).

 

[sanityonleave]

And how did that work out for them in regards to usmle?

Like someone else said, just fine. Some people study from textbooks (I did more than most of my classmates), but it's ultimately a lecture-based curriculum. You can learn it however you want. I wouldn't spout about board exams until you've taken them.

At least $100,000

Salary or tuition?

In all seriousness, this thread pops up from time to time -- listen to primadonna, since she's one of the few people who has actually done both and can speak to the merits of each.

 

[primadonna22274]

Maya, sorry I missed this post.
You will be 40 someday no matter what. I will be 40 when I graduate med school and minimum 43 when I finish residency...so what? I am healthy and look much younger, and women in my family live into their 90s, so I anticipate many more productive working years.
Now as for family...that is more complicated. I don't have children and truthfully being a mother was never all that important to me. I am the oldest of 7 and helped raise my younger sibs. I was a bit awestruck to have my first real baby craving just before I turned 37, but I've managed to hit the snooze button on the biological clock for a while longer. I agree that it would be somewhat doable to have a baby during the first 2 yr of med school, but my husband doesn't live here (by necessity had to keep his job 700 miles away) so that's out. Childbearing during residency is a possibility, but TBD. I do recognize that by pursuing this path I may be giving up my opportunity to have children biologically--but as I said that was never very important to me.
My best advice is to figure out which career suits your personality best. If you can be content knowing a lot and doing a lot but not everything, and can accept a defined scope of practice, knowing you will never be an independent practitioner, PA is a great career. If you cannot be happy knowing you will always have a supervising physician and won't learn everything a physician learns, you really should go to medical school.
Good luck!

I'm 25 and trying to decide which one would be a better choice for me. I find a lot of reasons to do either/or. My only problem with medical school is I would be 32 when I graduate and close to 40 by the time I finish residency - which doesn't leave a lot of opportunity if I decide I want to start a family.

I love the thought of being able to diagnose and the challenges involved with medicine. I don't want to enter a career as a Physician Assistant and find that its not challenging as expected.

 

[sotto voce]

Which one did you complete first? If you had the choice, would you choose to do one over the other?

You thought he got an MD/DO then went to PA school? Smart one here.

 

[primadonna22274]

Be nice. And I'm a woman.

You thought he got an MD/DO then went to PA school? Smart one here.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Thank you! I wanted to know if majority difference was in concepts covered or memorization. Looks like its really just a condensed version of the medical school material.

Replace "condensed" with "superficial".

I don't think you can tell how similar or different studying in each curriculum is just by looking at course titles...

Yes

 

[sotto voce]

Replace "condensed" with "superficial".







Yes

In my experience PAs do almost exactly what doctors do, so is it possible they learn a bit faster (and thus more) over their shorter program compared to med students?? The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing, yet on SDN words like "superficial" get thrown around. Not sure who to believe.

 

[SpecterGT260]

In my experience PAs do almost exactly what doctors do, so is it possible they learn a bit faster (and thus more) over their shorter program compared to med students?? The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing, yet on SDN words like "superficial" get thrown around. Not sure who to believe.

It is possible... but extremely improbable for a number of reasons. The PA program at my school is one of the tops in the nation. if a medical student fails a course we go retake it with the PAs as a consolation pass. In addition their clinical rotations are not as intense as the Med students (per discretion of the attendings). Aside from that I still reject the logic behind a system that says a group of people with a significantly lower MCAT and GPA are capable of learning, on average, faster than a group scoring higher when that latter group still struggles. That is just silly.

Just buy some simple logic. We have 1 group in the show itself to be on average less academically capable, and we are proposing that they are on average outperforming a historically higher scoring group when the second group is already on average maxed out. Weather can certainly be individuals who fit this scenario, the only situation that can make this a rule is if undergraduate academics are inversely related to graduate academics which is nonsensical

And I just want to be clear that I'm not knocking on PAs. Just being realistic about their abilities and roles in healthcare

 

[mmmcdowe]

In my experience PAs do almost exactly what doctors do, so is it possible they learn a bit faster (and thus more) over their shorter program compared to med students?? The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing, yet on SDN words like "superficial" get thrown around. Not sure who to believe.

Specter beat me to it, but yeah I think your experience is not the norm. Even if we do assume they learn more faster, I simply can't believe that they learn enough to compensate significantly for a lack of residency.
That being said, just looking at the above schedule it does seem to be much more clinically focused.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Which is why their practice is much more protocol driven.

 

[primadonna22274]

And what is that experience exactly? Are you a PA? I am. Was near the top of my class. Clinical excellence award. High pass on first PANCE. Enjoyed clinical practice and loved medicine so much that I am now in medical school. Granted I am 14 yr older than I was in PA school but I have been challenged. It is so much more than I learned before. Twice as many credits per semester and no grade inflation (ouch!) in class with folks who are much smarter than me. I am humbled every day.

In clinical practice, especially primary care, PAs do much of what the docs do. They come to it by different pathways and think a bit differently though. Experience is a great teacher and after several years a seasoned PA knows much more than right out of school, as does that physician at the end of residency. The learning never stops. Medicine doesn't tolerate apathy.

I am sure I will be a better physician for my years of preparation as a PA. I look forward to working with and teaching PAs and will always advocate for PAs. It's a tired argument that PAs know just as much and do the same job as physicians...folks who believe that are silly. I did recognize early on in my career that most docs weren't smarter than me, but had taken a different path and were better educated in basic science and medicine. I never suffered from the delusion that I knew as much as them--that's a logical fallacy. I did learn as much as I could from them and many of them encouraged me to complete my medical education.

Not sure if you're trolling Sotto Voce.


QUOTE=sotto voce;12582131]In my experience PAs do almost exactly what doctors do, so is it possible they learn a bit faster (and thus more) over their shor program compared to med students?? The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing, yet on SDN words like "superficial" get thrown around. Not sure who to believe.[/QUOTE]

 

[SpecterGT260]

And what is that experience exactly? Are you a PA? I am. Was near the top of my class. Clinical excellence award. High pass on first PANCE. Enjoyed clinical practice and loved medicine so much that I am now in medical school. Granted I am 14 yr older than I was in PA school but I have been challenged. It is so much more than I learned before. Twice as many credits per semester and no grade inflation (ouch!) in class with folks who are much smarter than me. I am humbled every day.

In clinical practice, especially primary care, PAs do much of what the docs do. They come to it by different pathways and think a bit differently though. Experience is a great teacher and after several years a seasoned PA knows much more than right out of school, as does that physician at the end of residency. The learning never stops. Medicine doesn't tolerate apathy.

I am sure I will be a better physician for my years of preparation as a PA. I look forward to working with and teaching PAs and will always advocate for PAs. It's a tired argument that PAs know just as much and do the same job as physicians...folks who believe that are silly. I did recognize early on in my career that most docs weren't smarter than me, but had taken a different path and were better educated in basic science and medicine. I never suffered from the delusion that I knew as much as them--that's a logical fallacy. I did learn as much as I could from them and many of them encouraged me to complete my medical education.

Not sure if you're trolling Sotto Voce.


QUOTE=sotto voce;12582131]In my experience PAs do almost exactly what doctors do, so is it possible they learn a bit faster (and thus more) over their shor program compared to med students?? The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing, yet on SDN words like "superficial" get thrown around. Not sure who to believe.

[/QUOTE]

Awesome post. Thanks for the IRL input. We need more of this sort of thing in these threads to combat the self-fellating musings that go on.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Getting into PA school can arguably harder than medical school as there are fewer seats and more stringent requirement for clinical experience. Some programs require between 500 and 1000 clinical hours, which realistically can only be gotten by having a clinically orientated job.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Getting into PA school can arguably harder than medical school as there are fewer seats and more stringent requirement for clinical experience. Some programs require between 500 and 1000 clinical hours, which realistically can only be gotten by having a clinically orientated job.

This is the same fallacy as before. PA and medical admissions use nearly the same rubric for admissions and use the same metrics (many use mcat and all use gpa). Since the average matriculant stats for med schools are higher in the same categories the only argument that can be made based on class size is that the average PA applicant might face a harder time getting into a school than the average med student. However since both programs use similar screening criteria it is expected that cross application would yield very different results..... This is just a logical approach to the averages. My mcat was slightly on the high side of competitive which I needed to offset a less than competitive gpa. My mcat is off the charts by PA standards and my gpa was highly competitive. Had I wanted to do PA school I would not have had an issue by numbers.

 

[VisionaryTics]

All of this hemming and hawing about med school vs. PA school curriculum and competitiveness is missing the point:

Residency. It's what defines the physician as a professional. Med school is an appetizer, and the real learning of medicine occurs in residency. Nothing that PAs or nurses or techs do compares to residency, and that's why physicians are the leaders of the medical team.

(Keep that in mind when advocating for less intensive residency training.)

 

[DocHawk117]

I was told that PA school is just a condense medical school... when you calculate the hours of class.. I think PA school is shorter by 20 hrs.

Hahaha. And when you calculate the hours of studying, the amount of material covered, the depth of material covered, etc. you will see this is a very false statement.

 

[DocHawk117]

The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing.

lolol what do the doctors have to say about this?

 

[K31]

The PAs I've met say they know just as much as doctors and do basically the same thing, yet on SDN words like "superficial" get thrown around.

Any PA who actually believes that is deluded. It's tough for you to see it as a pre-med, but there is a very noticeable difference if you've worked with both for any significant period of tIme.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Any PA who actually believes that is deluded. It's tough for you to see it as a pre-med, but there is a very noticeable difference if you've worked with both for any significant period of tIme.

This.

I've got my own list of horror stories of PA. Anecdotal yes... but damn unnerving. They have a batting average good enough for the cubs but that ain't gunna cut it in a hospital

 

[NightGod]

Oh sorry, I don't mean the PA who mentioned her school offered seasoned PAs an M3 spot (although I am curious where that is!) but the loudmouth who thinks PAs are smarter than physicians (and probably else). She would have been a fun student for me

I believe she told me it was Northwestern, but it's been a solid two years since I last talked to her. From the sounds of it, it was an experimental program and it's very possible that it's a program they have since discontinued or decided not to go through with. It was definitely a Chicagoland school. She had zero reason to lie to me (as she told me that she decided that she wasn't going to do it) and simply passed on the information because she knew I was interested in medicine.

 

[primadonna22274]

Thanks...somewhere in Chicagoland but definitely not Northwestern as they just started their PA program 2 yr ago.
Midwestern maybe? Interesting.

I believe she told me it was Northwestern, but it's been a solid two years since I last talked to her. From the sounds of it, it was an experimental program and it's very possible that it's a program they have since discontinued or decided not to go through with. It was definitely a Chicagoland school. She had zero reason to lie to me (as she told me that she decided that she wasn't going to do it) and simply passed on the information because she knew I was interested in medicine.

 

[tankgunner]

Thanks...somewhere in Chicagoland but definitely not Northwestern as they just started their PA program 2 yr ago.
Midwestern maybe? Interesting.

midwestern website says accreditation standards require 3rd year transfers to have 2 years of do school. so that's not possible for do schools.

 

[Socrates25]

All of this hemming and hawing about med school vs. PA school curriculum and competitiveness is missing the point:

Residency. It's what defines the physician as a professional. Med school is an appetizer, and the real learning of medicine occurs in residency. Nothing that PAs or nurses or techs do compares to residency, and that's why physicians are the leaders of the medical team.

(Keep that in mind when advocating for less intensive residency training.)

Be careful -- you'll get angry PAs on this forum who claim that 5 years of job experience is the same thing as residency.