What is the role of psychologists in reducing injustice and increasing social justice?

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Meh, we've had pretty knockdown discussions all over the board. Meehl and I have been on the same and opposing sides for many issues. Same with Pragma, and we still meet up for drinks at our conference every year (except this one). This board is one of the better ones of somewhat controversial discussions.

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Meh, we've had pretty knockdown discussions all over the board. Meehl and I have been on the same and opposing sides for many issues. Same with Pragma, and we still meet up for drinks at our conference every year (except this one). This board is one of the better ones of somewhat controversial discussions.
Agreed. I wouldn't be interested in a board where there wasn't controversy and back and forth.
 
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Yeah, occasionally we'll get those people who come out of the woodwork, complain about tone, argue in a hypocritical way, and then threaten to take their ball and go home, but we're pretty good about ignoring those ones. In time they just become a mildly amusing occasional thing to play with. But, all in all, this is a good place to debate/argue for the most part.
 
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I think the issue for a lot of people involves the questions regarding the causes (the why?) of said disparities/differences. In every other area of clinical psychology we adhere to a scientific approach which generally means examining multiple different theories of causation, complex (multi-factorial) causation, and, very importantly, a skeptical/critical attitude towards ALL theories that are employed to make causal claims as well as vigorous debate among various scholars. This is an area where anyone even daring to question the claims of the univariate ('racism explains everything') approach is immediately attacked with ad hominems (they're 'racist,' or 'ignorant'). It's bizarre to witness.

Sure, there are lots of proposed mechanisms that people talk about in the literature. Maybe that's what you're hearing, but that isn't a fair summary of what people are saying.

Simply pulling headers from some of the articles I linked: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.27.2.393

UNDERSTANDING HEALTH DISPARITIES

Biological Factors

Health Care Access and Quality

Physical Environment

Social Environment

Behavioral Factors

Stress

Discrimination


And another: https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(12)00287-0/abstract

System Level
Child and adolescent psychiatrists encounter striking examples of disproportionate minority representation in the school and juvenile justice systems. Youth from minority backgrounds who exhibit or are thought to exhibit behavioral or learning problems in school settings are less likely to receive high-quality mental health assessments and treatments. Instead, they are more likely to be streamlined toward disciplinary responses, including detention and possible incarceration, with juvenile justice serving as the “de facto” mental health treatment system for minority youth. Youth advocates are concerned that a “school-to-prison pipeline” is fed by the increased use of the zero-tolerance discipline. Through the Office for Civil Rights, the HHS monitors schools and juvenile justice facilities for disproportionate minority representation. Recently, the Disproportionate Minority Contact Action Network 6 was launched to unite local jurisdictions with national experts in their efforts to decrease disproportionate minority contacts through sustained, coordinated, and informed efforts that address the multiple pathways to detention facilities and, for many youth, blighted adult lives. 34

Patient/Provider Level
For complex reasons, families from minority backgrounds are less likely to seek mental health treatment or participate in research studies than nonminority families. In turn, current medical knowledge is informed predominantly by clinical and research data derived from nonminority patients, limiting professional expertise in understanding and interpreting disease presentations by patients from minority backgrounds. In an era that values evidence-based and personalized medicine, it is disconcerting that many psychiatric treatments lack generalizability to racial and ethnic minority populations. 7

The costs of mental health disparities are high and varied; patients develop increased morbidity and mortality and a lower quality of life; professionals face uncertainties in clinical decision making and moral/ethical dilemmas and a failure to achieve better outcomes; and society loses productivity and incurs higher costs associated with unsuccessfully managed chronic conditions. Thus, coordinated efforts on all levels are needed to achieve the Healthy People 2020 goal of eliminating disparities.

From another article: Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Mental Health Care: Evidence and Policy Implications

Racial/Ethnic Disparities in Mental Health Care
Turning now to the evidence on disparities in mental health care, most research comparing mental health care across groups finds evidence of disparities in access and use. As documented in “Mental Health: A Report of the Surgeon General”24 and its supplement, “Mental Health, Culture, Race and Ethnicity”19, racial and ethnic minorities have less access to mental health services than do whites, are less likely to receive needed care and are more likely to receive poor quality care when treated. Minorities in the United States are more likely than whites to delay or fail to seek mental health treatment.2527 After entering care, minority patients are less likely than Whites to receive the best available treatments for depression and anxiety.28, 29 African Americans are more likely than Whites to terminate treatment prematurely.30 Among adults with diagnosis-based need for mental health or substance abuse care, 37.6% of Whites, but only 22.4% of Latinos and 25.0% of African Americans, receive treatment.31 This comparison is consistent with the IOM definition of disparities based on need and not controlling for socioeconomic and health system factors when comparing rates among the groups. McGuire and colleagues32 implement the IOM definition of disparities in outpatient mental health care and find overall spending for Blacks and Latinos on outpatient mental health care is about 60 percent and 75 percent of white rates, respectively, after taking into account need for care.

Another good one linked previously: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.27.2.393

MECHANISMS CONTRIBUTING TO DISPARITIES
Mechanisms behind disparities in health and mental health care show some differences. A broad distinction, introduced by the IOM, is between disparities due to discriminatory behavior of providers (that is, treating otherwise similar patients differently according to race/ethnicity) and disparities due to access, insurance, and other factors associated with the operation of the health care system. 30


PROVIDERS’ BIAS AND STEREOTYPING.
Discrimination by providers is often the first potential source of disparities that comes to mind. Discrimination by race/ethnicity is a complex behavior that can stem from a number of sources, some malevolent, some not. 31 A provider harboring a bias against a certain group may exert less effort on behalf of a member of that group, leading to discrimination. 32 Discrimination can also stem from the negative stereotypes a provider might hold. For example, if a doctor believes that “blacks are less likely than whites to comply with treatment,” the doctor might prescribe differently based on race for otherwise similar patients. Many white Americans harbor negative stereotypes about blacks. 33 Michelle van Ryn and Jane Burke argue that “physicians may be especially vulnerable to the use of stereotypes in forming impressions of patients since time pressure, brief encounters, and the need to manage very complex tasks are common characteristics of their work.” 34


PROVIDERS’ “STATISTICAL DISCRIMINATION.”
It is also important to recognize, however, that the behavior of discrimination can result from application of clinical decision rules that in themselves seem to be neutral and even “efficient” but have different effects by race. Clinicians make decisions about what test to run or treatments to recommend in the face of considerable uncertainty about the underlying “true” condition of the patient, and their decision rules reflect that reality. The same symptom report—chest pain, for instance—may be logically interpreted as meaning different things for a young woman than for an older man. The doctor may “discriminate” by recommending that the young woman try an over-the-counter gastrointestinal medication and that the older man get an electrocardiogram (EKG). This kind of discrimination, stemming from the doctor’s rational response to uncertainty, is termed “statistical” discrimination. 35 Statistical discrimination shares with stereotyping the feature that actions are based on beliefs about group characteristics but are distinct, at least in principle, because the stereotypical belief is negative and exaggerated, whereas the clinical generalization is based on fact.

The concept of statistical discrimination is a potential link between features of disparities in mental health care as compared to other health care. The prevalence of mental disorders is generally lower among minorities, so that a clinician’s statistical “prior” that a patient is ill when encountering a minority patient should be that this patient is less likely to be ill in comparison to an otherwise similar white patient. If so, a more serious indication of symptoms would be necessary to cause a clinician to revise the prior enough to justify recommending treatment. In health, where minorities may on average be worse off than whites, application of population priors will tend to favor rates of treatment for minorities. Furthermore, in addition to a prior probability, the clinical decision-making literature refers to the “signal,” or symptom report, coming from the patient. If communication is generally worse when the patient and doctor come from different ethnic, racial, or language groups, the resultant “noisier” signal will be rationally given less weight by the doctor. 36 Minorities will be worse off on two counts, then, in connection with statistical discrimination. Their lower priors and noisier signals lead to lower probability of treatment for a patient with a given level of health care need. If statistical discrimination of this kind feeds into treatment decisions, disparities arising within the clinical encounter are more important in mental health than in general health. In the case of mental disorders, where population prevalence is generally lower for minorities and where communication/understanding may be worse, this type of provider discrimination leads to lower rates of treatment for minorities.


PROVIDER AND GEOGRAPHIC DIFFERENCES.
In the health care area, the second set of factors, provider- or geographic-level differences, are major sources of disparities. 37 Provider A may provide low-quality care to all patients, and Provider B, high-quality care to all patients, and if minorities are more likely to be seen by Provider A, these across-provider differences will account for some disparities. Geographic-level factors can work similarly, to the extent that minorities are more likely than whites to live in areas characterized by low-quality care.


HEALTH INSURANCE DIFFERENCES.
As in general health care, mental health care disparities associated with access in general, and lack of insurance, are significant in minority communities. 38 Inadequate access in poor, rural communities may be shared by everyone living there, but since minorities are more likely to live in poor communities, this form of access problem can contribute to mental health disparities.
 
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Sure, there are lots of proposed mechanisms that people talk about in the literature. Maybe that's what you're hearing, but that isn't a fair summary of what people are saying.

Simply pulling headers from some of the articles I linked: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.27.2.393




And another: https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(12)00287-0/abstract



From another article: Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Mental Health Care: Evidence and Policy Implications



Another good one linked previously: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.27.2.393

Anything that examines influences that operate at the level of the individual? I mean, in terms of helping with the individual clinical case formulation and would inform direct decisionmaking in the context of individual psychotherapy? Not talking about at the level of the individual clinician (adjusting his/her perspective), I mean findings/points from this literature that would discuss cognitive and/or behavioral change that should occur within the individual client in therapy. That's an issue I have with the paradigm. It seems to focus on change that should happen within society at large (e.g., 'eliminating disparities') or within the clinician (which is well and good). But it seems to be ignoring entirely any issues related to the dysfunctional attitudes or behaviors that an individual may possess and need to be targeted in therapy. Maybe that's outside of its scope/purview. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
 
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Anything that examines influences that operate at the level of the individual? I mean, in terms of helping with the individual clinical case formulation and would inform direct decisionmaking in the context of individual psychotherapy? Not talking about at the level of the individual clinician (adjusting his/her perspective), I mean findings/points from this literature that would discuss cognitive and/or behavioral change that should occur within the individual client in therapy. That's an issue I have with the paradigm. It seems to focus on change that should happen within society at large (e.g., 'eliminating disparities') or within the clinician (which is well and good). But it seems to be ignoring entirely any issues related to the dysfunctional attitudes or behaviors that an individual may possess and need to be targeted in therapy. Maybe that's outside of its scope/purview. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.

This is a fantastic question. I've had colleagues who were involved in adapting and evaluating the effectiveness of CBT for different cultures (e.g., for delivery in African/Asian nations), and I know that there is work that's been done comparing relative efficacy of interventions for different demographics (e.g., women, Af-Am, AIAN, As-Am, etc.). I know there's a lot of talk now about cultural competence vs. cultural humility, but I'm unfortunately not very familiar with the details of the distinction between the two.

I think also that it's important for us as mental health care providers to be thoughtful about where we position ourselves in the labor market and/or the market of ideas, which was what I was originally thinking this thread would be more focused on. Who do I see in my independent practice? What is the consequence of not taking insurance? Or offering sliding scale fees for some portion of my caseload? How does working at a VA relate to injsutice as it pertains to mental health/care disparities? What about the research that I do? How does my focus on a "universal" topic vs a minority mental health-specific topic relate to my responsibilities regarding reducing social injustice?
 
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@Fan_of_Meehl

Is the question that you are asking is there is social injustice or are you asking what can be done about it. There is certainly social injustice. What we are to do about it is a much more complex question. Some have suggested challenging attitudes that reflect this injustice. I am not sure that this is really our job unless it is affecting the patient in front of us. If this issue is systemic change, I am not sure that the fight is worth having. Social justice strikes me as an idea that is great in the abstract and unlikely to be successful in reality.
 
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@Fan_of_Meehl

Is the question that you are asking is there is social injustice or are you asking what can be done about it. There is certainly social injustice. What we are to do about it is a much more complex question. Some have suggested challenging attitudes that reflect this injustice. I am not sure that this is really our job unless it is affecting the patient in front of us. If this issue is systemic change, I am not sure that the fight is worth having. Social justice strikes me as an idea that is great in the abstract and unlikely to be successful in reality.
I guess the main question I'm asking (and keep asking) is about the sub-area(s) of professional psychology that study 'social injustice,' not the construct itself. I am asserting that controversy, debate, skepticism, and critique are essential elements of a scientific approach to ANY area (regardless of the content of said area of inquiry). It's my observation, from what I've read, is that there appears to be less controversy, debate, skepticism, and critique going on between authors and researchers in the area as compared with other areas in clinical psychology that are a focus of intense (often fractious) debate. I was (in good faith) asking to be pointed to any particular instances from the literature where authors/researchers were engaged in a vigorous debate about the particulars in their area of study. I was thinking more along the lines of a book that examines, say, 'Controversies in the Study of Multiculturalism {or 'Social Justice' or whatever}' along the lines of a book like 'Current controversies in the Anxiety Disorders' or something like a journal issue devoted to these controversies.
 
I think also that it's important for us as mental health care providers to be thoughtful about where we position ourselves in the labor market and/or the market of ideas, which was what I was originally thinking this thread would be more focused on. Who do I see in my independent practice? What is the consequence of not taking insurance? Or offering sliding scale fees for some portion of my caseload? How does working at a VA relate to injsutice as it pertains to mental health/care disparities? What about the research that I do? How does my focus on a "universal" topic vs a minority mental health-specific topic relate to my responsibilities regarding reducing social injustice.

Relating to this, I think my answer to most of these questions is that I, on an individual level, feel little to no responsibility for these issues as a practitioner. Doing sliding scale, taking insurance ,etc is taking resources away from my own family. I have worked with diverse populations throughout my career and there comes a point where you cannot continue to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good and no one should be asked to do this. If social justice is fought for on the individual level, this is why it will continue to lose steam, IMO.
 
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Yeah, that's not what APA is advocating for or about. They are advocating for such conditions as: "diabetes", HIV, "cancer", etc. There are no states in the union that allow psychologists to diagnose those conditions. "Dr. how many patients a month do you diagnose with "cancer"? Isn't it true that you are not licensed to diagnose cancer? And you're not an oncologist? epidemiologist? etc.

I have no issue with discussing disparities in mental healthcare. That is easily within our purview. By extending the issue outside of our scope, it makes us look ridiculous.

Actually its well within the scope of health psychology. And many individuals studying these things are doing so under the umbrella of social psychology where they may not be experts in the DV, but they are arguably much better suited to study the IV than a typical physician or epidemiologist. Your approach seems based on what would stand up as expert witness testimony, but our legal system is kind of a charade and I'm not sure deserves to be taken that seriously outside the courtroom. Tons of perfectly legitimate things can be made to look ridiculous by an attorney on cross-examination. I don't know that we should care enough to let that dictate what we do and do not advocate for as a profession.

That said, I think APA steps far beyond the bounds of science on these issues quite frequently and that definitely needs to change.
 
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I guess the main question I'm asking (and keep asking) is about the sub-area(s) of professional psychology that study 'social injustice,' not the construct itself. I am asserting that controversy, debate, skepticism, and critique are essential elements of a scientific approach to ANY area (regardless of the content of said area of inquiry). It's my observation, from what I've read, is that there appears to be less controversy, debate, skepticism, and critique going on between authors and researchers in the area as compared with other areas in clinical psychology that are a focus of intense (often fractious) debate. I was (in good faith) asking to be pointed to any particular instances from the literature where authors/researchers were engaged in a vigorous debate about the particulars in their area of study. I was thinking more along the lines of a book that examines, say, 'Controversies in the Study of Multiculturalism {or 'Social Justice' or whatever}' along the lines of a book like 'Current controversies in the Anxiety Disorders' or something like a journal issue devoted to these controversies.


I think the issue you are speaking to here is that social justice, more so than other areas in psychology, steps into political correctness issues. That may not affect some areas, but will certainly stop certain questions from being asked due to them being culturally taboo. I remember listening to a podcast not long ago of a longitudinal study of families that were moved from traditional section 8 communities to areas that were more economically affluent and diverse. The authors found no improved outcomes for adults or older children of Section 8 families compared to those in traditional Section 8 housing developments. They eventually found that younger children did grow up to be more successful in the diverse environments. A win for social justice. The question many people will have in the real world is that while diverse communities led to improvements in Section 8 children having higher achievement in adulthood, did it have any detrimental affects on the more affluent children in that same community? I don't know what the outcome would be, but I doubt that study will ever be conducted or published.
 
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Actually its well within the scope of health psychology. And many individuals studying these things are doing so under the umbrella of social psychology where they may not be experts in the DV, but they are arguably much better suited to study the IV than a typical physician or epidemiologist. Your approach seems based on what would stand up as expert witness testimony, but our legal system is kind of a charade and I'm not sure deserves to be taken that seriously outside the courtroom. Tons of perfectly legitimate things can be made to look ridiculous by an attorney on cross-examination. I don't know that we should care enough to let that dictate what we do and do not advocate for as a profession.

That said, I think APA steps far beyond the bounds of science on these issues quite frequently and that definitely needs to change.


With all due respect, I do not believe this is a well thought out argument.

1) The law rules everything in our society. If you really believe that the legal system is a charade that only applies to the courtroom: let you license lapse, lie on a medical license application, quit paying taxes, try to get in the cockpit of a plane, and perform surgery. Or do you not really believe your position? The process might be a silly game to you, but the process is how the people who make the rules operate.

2) You are confusing treating the behavioral components of a medical ailment with treatment of the medical ailment itself. The fact is zero state licensing boards allow psychologists to order medical labs exclusively for medical illnesses. Likewise, psychologists are not allowed to prescribe for the treatment of such illness. This is an incredible burden to qualifying one's self. Similarly, APA's use of nonprofessional terms in diagnosis makes psychology look even less qualified to say anything about those health conditions. If everyone just said, here are the behavioral components of X diagnosis, here is what we can do for those behavioral components... fine.

3) Legislators back those with clout and those with money. If psychologists continue to show up with neither, we are teaching those in power that we are best ignored.
 
3) Legislators back those with clout and those with money. If psychologists continue to show up with neither, we are teaching those in power that we are best ignored.

The bolded is why I see most social justice talk as an academic exercise.
 
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...which requires significant funding, which psychologists rarely provide.

It also takes hard work to learn how the law works, how they speak, who the players are, what the players histories are, who they associate with, what they need, how to sell an idea, who to sell the idea to, why someone would benefit from that idea, how to write the idea into actionable steps, how to pay your dues so you’re not a rando, etc.
 
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Tangentially related, rioters just destroyed one of our primary care clinics. It's one that served primarily newer immigrants and the very poor, so....that doesn't help much.
Ugh. Bad news for everyone.
 
Well, last night they burned down a low income housing development that was to be completed this fall. Also not good news, especially in a metro area with a huge dearth of affordable housing.
I've seen some of my more far left friends supporting rioting and looting as a means of protest, and I just don't get it.
 
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I've seen some of my more far left friends supporting rioting and looting as a means of protest, and I just don't get it.

I don't get it as well, if that's what we're defining as liberal progressive, I guess I am pretty far from liberal progressive these days.
 
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The bolded is why I see most social justice talk as an academic exercise.
Eh, we do have civil rights laws, and they are, eh, fairly well enforced, so obviously, social justice hasn't been a complete loss by far. Recently, outcry over possible healthcare rationing on the basis of disability got states and providers to provide more protections in that area just recently. Not denying that money talks, but so do votes and PR. to some considerable extent.
 
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I've seen some of my more far left friends supporting rioting and looting as a means of protest, and I just don't get it.
Same....it was somewhat a surprise, but not totally. There are/were rumors on social media that at least some of the fires were staged to make protestors look bad, but no legitimate news agencies have commented on it. What a mess.
 
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With all due respect, I do not believe this is a well thought out argument.

1) The law rules everything in our society. If you really believe that the legal system is a charade that only applies to the courtroom: let you license lapse, lie on a medical license application, quit paying taxes, try to get in the cockpit of a plane, and perform surgery. Or do you not really believe your position? The process might be a silly game to you, but the process is how the people who make the rules operate.

2) You are confusing treating the behavioral components of a medical ailment with treatment of the medical ailment itself. The fact is zero state licensing boards allow psychologists to order medical labs exclusively for medical illnesses. Likewise, psychologists are not allowed to prescribe for the treatment of such illness. This is an incredible burden to qualifying one's self. Similarly, APA's use of nonprofessional terms in diagnosis makes psychology look even less qualified to say anything about those health conditions. If everyone just said, here are the behavioral components of X diagnosis, here is what we can do for those behavioral components... fine.

3) Legislators back those with clout and those with money. If psychologists continue to show up with neither, we are teaching those in power that we are best ignored.

RE: #1 Obviously not arguing one should ignore laws and do whatever they want. I do stand by my belief that our legal system is poorly-designed for establishing truth outside the "game" that is the courtroom (and oftentimes poorly-designed even for establishing truth within it). Accordingly, using "Might an opposing attorney argue this is outside my scope of practice" is a poor litmus test for dictating what we do and do not want our professional organization to do. They will argue anything they think will help them win the case. It may or may not work. They could and would just as readily turn around and chastise a physician championing a health disparities cause for not being an expert in sociology. That's their job and its fine. Moreover, the line between professions is blurry. I know social psychologists in epidemiology departments, clinical psychologists in endocrinology departments, heck I am basically functioning as a neuroscientist and pharmacologist when I have my research hat on these days. If we want APA to be an organization "for psychologists" I think we need to recognize we have a pretty heterogeneous profession. If we focus on the narrowest possible definition of our scope, than that excludes a boatload of people (which is likely to further limit their influence in line with your point #3). I'm not even necessarily advocating for APA to take up the cause of social justice, just that I don't want a professional organization representing me making decisions about their advocacy efforts based solely off what some imaginary attorney cross-examining them might say is technically inside or outside their scope.

RE: #2 and #3 - You will get no disagreement from me on either of those points.
 
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Anything that examines influences that operate at the level of the individual? I mean, in terms of helping with the individual clinical case formulation and would inform direct decisionmaking in the context of individual psychotherapy? Not talking about at the level of the individual clinician (adjusting his/her perspective), I mean findings/points from this literature that would discuss cognitive and/or behavioral change that should occur within the individual client in therapy. That's an issue I have with the paradigm. It seems to focus on change that should happen within society at large (e.g., 'eliminating disparities') or within the clinician (which is well and good). But it seems to be ignoring entirely any issues related to the dysfunctional attitudes or behaviors that an individual may possess and need to be targeted in therapy. Maybe that's outside of its scope/purview. I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
I think a lot of it is really being clearly aware of your clients' experiences and how they may differ grossly from yours on both an individual and systemic level. For example, the recent CDC guidance to wear facemasks is pretty unambiguously beneficial, right? ...Unless you're a Black man, in which case doing so also increases your chance of getting shot. Or teaching children to unambiguously "trust the police" if they are in danger, when for some people that may be very bad advice. Outside of straight-up discrimination (which is definitely a thing), a huge reason that people from marginalized groups tend to have health disparities in seeking and getting effective care is that providers, including mental health providers, tend to have the unconscious assumption of "well, if you really wanted to, you could do everything like me" in providing care, without accounting for the contextual factors that may really change how the client can and should best approach things.
 
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RE: #1 Obviously not arguing one should ignore laws and do whatever they want. I do stand by my belief that our legal system is poorly-designed for establishing truth outside the "game" that is the courtroom (and oftentimes poorly-designed even for establishing truth within it).

If you are saying the legal system is confined to a court room, you are ignoring administrative and contractual procedures. Even in these settings, legal professionals and legal processes work in this manner as dictated by hundreds of years of tradition. That is the game. One's feelings about how they work is largely immaterial.

To return the point:

If one were trying to convince a legislator to do X, one would have a much greater chance of success if one is familiar with how that profession works/thinks, have a credentials that show they should listen to (you presented in the format attorneys are used to including legal citations), exactly what steps need to be taken to enact X, why X will benefit the legislator, why X will benefit society in monetary terms to account for political risk, what the counter arguments are, why counter arguments are wrong, etc.

Conversely, one could show up, ask a legislator to do Y, be unaware that they are an attorney, express derision at the standard methodology used by their profession, be unable to explain why one should listen to you over someone else, give amorphous goals without action steps, be unable to show explicit benefits even if the legislator takes a political risk to endorse you, and then one could get befuddled when counter arguments are made.

There's just no selling the latter. Even if the latter was just in the news, no one would take their calls.
 
As an aside, AASPIRE is a really great example of social justice applied to individual patient care. It's co-lead by an autistic person (who now also has a PhD) and a really accomplished practicing physician-scientist, so it's both grounded in the realities of healthcare and the lived experience of being autistic and in rigorous science. The healthcare toolkit they put together is a great example of applied social justice research, IMO: AASPIRE Healthcare Toolkit for Autistic Adults

Also, in a lot of these areas, we have a long way to go before remotely solving the issues--in some of this, we're still trying to establish "not actively discriminating might be a good idea" as an accepted standard of practice. For example, we published an article just recently that basically boiled down to "you need to actively support your trainees with disabilities as a part of competent supervision" and the unironic reviewer feedback we got was that that was essentially a brand new idea to them but they thought it was awesome.
 
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As an aside, AASPIRE is a really great example of social justice applied to individual patient care. It's co-lead by an autistic person (who now also has a PhD) and a really accomplished practicing physician-scientist, so it's both grounded in the realities of healthcare and the lived experience of being autistic and in rigorous science. The healthcare toolkit they put together is a great example of applied social justice research, IMO: AASPIRE Healthcare Toolkit for Autistic Adults

Also, in a lot of these areas, we have a long way to go before remotely solving the issues--in some of this, we're still trying to establish "not actively discriminating might be a good idea" as an accepted standard of practice. For example, we published an article just recently that basically boiled down to "you need to actively support your trainees with disabilities as a part of competent supervision" and the unironic reviewer feedback we got was that that was essentially a brand new idea to them but they thought it was awesome.
Yeah...that sounds like common sense.
 
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Yeah...that sounds like common sense.
You would be surprised. When it comes to trainees with disabilities, supervisors often cop to having no idea what to do and often not a lot of interest in figuring it out. Here's a new, interesting study on that:
Wilbur, R. C., Kuemmel, A. M., & Lackner, R. J. (2019). Who’s on first? Supervising psychology trainees with disabilities and establishing accommodations. Training and Education in Professional Psychology, 13(2), 111-118.
 
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If you are saying the legal system is confined to a court room, you are ignoring administrative and contractual procedures. Even in these settings, legal professionals and legal processes work in this manner as dictated by hundreds of years of tradition. That is the game. One's feelings about how they work is largely immaterial.

To return the point:

If one were trying to convince a legislator to do X, one would have a much greater chance of success if one is familiar with how that profession works/thinks, have a credentials that show they should listen to (you presented in the format attorneys are used to including legal citations), exactly what steps need to be taken to enact X, why X will benefit the legislator, why X will benefit society in monetary terms to account for political risk, what the counter arguments are, why counter arguments are wrong, etc.

Conversely, one could show up, ask a legislator to do Y, be unaware that they are an attorney, express derision at the standard methodology used by their profession, be unable to explain why one should listen to you over someone else, give amorphous goals without action steps, be unable to show explicit benefits even if the legislator takes a political risk to endorse you, and then one could get befuddled when counter arguments are made.

There's just no selling the latter. Even if the latter was just in the news, no one would take their calls.

I feel like we've deviated a bit from the original point on to my personal feelings about the political/legal system here. Again, don't really disagree with any of this. I certainly wouldn't advise an advocacy strategy that involved showing up at congress and calling everyone a bunch of lazy f'n *****s more concerned with playing games to create an illusion that can win them votes rather than solving major societal problems. I mean, I'm frustrated enough right now I might do such a thing if offered the opportunity, but I'm pretty clear about the fact it would be for my own catharsis and would not win anyone over. This is why I outsource my political efforts.

We may be talking about different things. If we are talking solely about APA's governmental/political activities I agree it makes sense to stick a little closer to our wheelhouse. I still think your take on what falls within the scope of psychology (especially when we consider that APA represents <psychology> and not <clinical/counseling psychology>) is overly narrow and not reflective of what a great many psychologists are doing, but that is perhaps a bigger discussion than this. I'm also viewing advocacy through a broader lens in which part of that reflects generating public discussion, pushing science and facts to the forefront of ongoing discussions on a topic, etc. I think there is room to cast a wider net there and that we should. I know some folks on this board are concerned about APA's influence deteriorating taking because no one wants to join...that problem is made far worse if huge swaths of psychologists are basically told their work is "not psychology" and therefore APA won't touch it.
 
If one were trying to convince a legislator to do X, one would have a much greater chance of success if one is familiar with how that profession works/thinks, have a credentials that show they should listen to (you presented in the format attorneys are used to including legal citations), exactly what steps need to be taken to enact X, why X will benefit the legislator, why X will benefit society in monetary terms to account for political risk, what the counter arguments are, why counter arguments are wrong, etc.

Conversely, one could show up, ask a legislator to do Y, be unaware that they are an attorney, express derision at the standard methodology used by their profession, be unable to explain why one should listen to you over someone else, give amorphous goals without action steps, be unable to show explicit benefits even if the legislator takes a political risk to endorse you, and then one could get befuddled when counter arguments are made.

The whole know your room thing, right? (or have the requisite knowledge base to know you need to know your room).
 
The whole know your room thing, right? (or have the requisite knowledge base to know you need to know your room).

Yes, generally psychologists have little to no knowledge in "how the sausage gets made" legislatively. Our state psych association employs a lobbyist to work with our issues with state legislature. We also have a legislative committee that helps out, several members of which have been doing this for decades. We are constantly answering e-mails and phone calls from our psychologist members about issues, and they almost uniformly think that it's as easy as us talking to a legislator about an issue and then suddenly we'll have a passed bill within a few weeks. Psychologists are painfully ignorant of the legislative process. I feel like we need an updated version of schoolhouse rock for them.
 
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i think an interesting element of the current situation is that I don’t think very many people right or left of the political spectrum disagree that what the police officer did was wrong. I’ve seen almost no one argue that they shouldn’t be arrested and charged with something. Same with the Arbery situation. Most everyone right or left seems to agree that was murder.

i think our media and celebrity and democratic politician elements contribute to igniting this rioting/violence response by highlighting a narrative that may not be true. What is the epidemiology of cop on citizen murder and what are the racial breakdowns of that? There’s research in this. Making national stories about these events makes them seem both more frequent and widespread than they are.

eg “they’re hunting us” - lebron James. But white on black murder is relatively rare in proportion. And further, not all white on black murder is racially motivated. Meaning, within that number of white on black murders , truly racially motivated white on black murder is only a percentage. You had media (cnn) openly talking about distrust of white males based on these instances. Turn that around to white women locking their car doors when a black guy walks by. It’s a racist discussion point that is not reasonable given base rates. It does provide fuel for those with political aspirations and those who wish to virtue signal in a social justice context.

reasonable discussions are to be had on police training and further stamping out apparently racist attacks (Arbery) without Colin kaepernicking the situation and making this about America as a whole.

All it took was a quick google:

Washington Post database reports, "African Americans are 2.5 times as likely to be killed by a police officer than white people ."
PLoS One article: "study found that unarmed blacks were 3.49 times more likely to be shot by police than were unarmed whites." A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014

And this is just the data on actual death by police. My understanding is that the data on incarceration and harassment is even worse.

Personally, I find it embarrassingly tone-deaf for colleagues to belittle people of color who express anger or fear about the real and obvious fact of inequity in our society, and the fact that people of colors' concerns are frequently disregarded and not supported by those in positions of power and authority (e.g., highly educated, well paid professionals [us]).
 
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Weaving in “privilege” and placing it in the tableau of various social justice political ideology frameworks? Bad.
Privilege isn't ideological, though. For example, able-bodied people have the privilege of knowing that any apartment they look at is going to be physically accessible to them; someone in a wheelchair doesn't. That's privilege and also a fact. Straight people know that no one is going to blink if they mention their spouse; people married to someone of the same sex don't have that privilege. Children growing up in an upper middle class family know that there will always be food for dinner; children growing up in poverty don't have that same security. These are factual issues that make life relatively easier or harder *on these specific dimensions*.
 
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It's an ideologically applied (and charged) term. And one that when applied to an individual is questionable. I think it has crossed heavily over into political language. But, that's true of many gender studies sourced material.

To say it's generally an advantage to grow up with more money, to be part of the majority in some factors (e.g., sexuality at times, race at times), to not be impoverished . . . few will bat an eye at that. To say "check your privilege" to someone when discussing an issue, that's a bit different, yes? To discuss white privilege as a broad benefit to all white people in the country (as a proxy for being upper middle class) is a hard sell and also one that is being used as a political tool. This one is interesting.


Learning about "white privilege" has no effect on how white liberals perceive blacks and elicits a diminished empathy for poor whites. When we talk about the intersection of psychology and "social justice" what does that look like? Which ideology do we want to push and to what end goal? And, I think that's the problem really. We don't want to push any ideology. We want to be a science and health discipline.


I think that the unspoken disconnect is not just the messaging (which can be fixed) but the action. It is one thing to acknowledge that we are all privileged in some way. However, there is huge disconnect and disagreement when it comes to taking action and which group should get priority. Those with privilege will not want to give it up and those in the middle of the hierarchy do no want to fall farther down the ladder so that another group has an advantage over them, The idea that we can all be upper middle class, get into an ivy league school, get a good job, etc is the silly myth this is based on. That is why I said plenty of people don't want the playing field to be equal. A lot more people just want it to appear equal and not openly offend anyone else.

So, anyone have any good ideas on actions that should actually be taken?
 
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I think that the unspoken disconnect is not just the messaging (which can be fixed) but the action. It is one thing to acknowledge that we are all privileged in some way. However, there is huge disconnect and disagreement when it comes to taking action and which group should get priority. Those with privilege will not want to give it up and those in the middle of the hierarchy do no want to fall farther down the ladder so that another group has an advantage over them, The idea that we can all be upper middle class, get into an ivy league school, get a good job, etc is the silly myth this is based on. That is why I said plenty of people don't want the playing field to be equal. A lot more people just want it to appear equal and not openly offend anyone else.

So, anyone have any good ideas on actions that should actually be taken?

Burn everything (including hierarchical structures) to the ground. Then we can all have 'equity' and be equally free of 'privilege.'
 

The issue is complicated.

I'm not sure what you're implying. Did you read the article that you linked? They cite a few sources that make claims to the contrary, but then make it clear that those studies used poor statistical methods, and conclude:

"We find that all currently described empirical patterns in the structuring of police use-of-force—including the “reversed” racial disparities in encounter-conditional use of lethal force—are explainable under a generative model in which there are consistent and systemic biases against black individuals."

So, anyone have any good ideas on actions that should actually be taken?

I think it's important to talk candidly about systemic racism and marginalization of minorities, for one.

There are lots of interesting larger conversations going on about policy level changes, but I seriously doubt anyone who is so skeptical about system-level oppression (which so many people on this forum seem to be in doubt about (?!?)) is interested in those conversations.
 
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Burn everything (including hierarchical structures) to the ground. Then we can all have 'equity' and be equally free of 'privilege.'

For about a minute, until the bigger, the stronger, and those in groups figure out they can bully others. See "The Walking Dead" for that reality.
 
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For about a minute, until the bigger, the stronger, and those in groups figure out they can bully others. See "The Walking Dead" for that reality.
I was actually trying to establish ground that everyone can agree upon (i.e., what we 'shouldn't do'). It seems like the easier path to agreement and I figured we could go from there and finding points of disagreement easily once we've established points of agreement.
 
I'm not sure what you're implying. Did you read the article that you linked? They cite a few sources that make claims to the contrary, but then make it clear that those studies used poor statistical methods, and conclude:

"We find that all currently described empirical patterns in the structuring of police use-of-force—including the “reversed” racial disparities in encounter-conditional use of lethal force—are explainable under a generative model in which there are consistent and systemic biases against black individuals."



I think it's important to talk candidly about systemic racism and marginalization of minorities, for one.

There are lots of interesting larger conversations going on about policy level changes, but I seriously doubt anyone who is so skeptical about system-level oppression (which so many people on this forum seem to be in doubt about (?!?)) is interested in those conversations.

To my point, why would anyone want to cede your contention if they benefit from that privilege?
 
To my point, why would anyone want to cede your contention if they benefit from that privilege?

Please think this through a little further.

I actually don't benefit from my brothers and sisters who have different color skin being targeted by the police.
 
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I was actually trying to establish ground that everyone can agree upon (i.e., what we 'shouldn't do'). It seems like the easier path to agreement and I figured we could go from there and finding points of disagreement easily once we've established points of agreement.

I got that, my point is that any system that forms will have inherent bias and privilege in some way. You can't escape it even if you burn down the system.
 
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Please think this through a little further.

I actually don't benefit from my brothers and sisters who have different color skin being targeted by the police.

You personally? maybe not. Do some people? sure, Ask Amy Cooper and her former dog.
 
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You personally? maybe not. Do some people? sure, Ask Amy Cooper and her former dog.

I don't think she would say she benefits from systemic racism at the moment, given that her life is in shambles as a consequence of the gross inequities and us-vs-them attitude that it generates...but I get your point.

I would say that even if people think it benefits them it actually harms the social fabric of our culture in ways that are less obvious, but no less impactful.
 
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I got that, my point is that any system that forms will have inherent bias and privilege in some way. You can't escape it even if you burn down the system.
Which I think is an excellent point. However, it does open you up to ad hominems.
 
I don't think she would say she benefits from systemic racism at the moment, given that her life is in shambles as a consequence of the gross inequities and us-vs-them attitude that it generates...but I get your point.

I would say that even if people think it benefits them it actually harms the social fabric of our culture in ways that are less obvious, but no less impactful.

Actually systemic racism did benefit her (it gave her power in a situation where she may have felt powerless), ubiquitous cell video and social media did her in.
 
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Well, these are locus of control issues and definitely fall down along ideological lines. Do I want my children to have advantages based on my financial success? Sure. Do I want to prevent others who achieve financial success to be able to provide opportunities for their children? No. As you asserted, hierarchies form. What I think I'd be striving for is improving the opportunities for people from less financially advantaged backgrounds to achieve economic mobility. But, I'd be against working toward equal outcomes and instead working toward decreasing systemic obstacles (i.e., striving to improve opportunity).

Interestingly, Bill Gates Sr. was a famously assertive advocate of huge estate taxes. Additionally, Gates Jr. has claimed that he plans to leave his children about $1MM of his fortune.

 
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