What is your Current student loan debt

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What is your current studen loan debt?

  • $0

    Votes: 32 19.5%
  • <$100,000

    Votes: 18 11.0%
  • <$200,000

    Votes: 26 15.9%
  • <$300,000

    Votes: 30 18.3%
  • <$400,000

    Votes: 20 12.2%
  • $400,000+

    Votes: 38 23.2%

  • Total voters
    164

Debt Free DDS

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What is your current student loan debt? I paid off over $400,000 in 3 years. I'd love to help or give tips.

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Please give us a breakdown of what your situation was, where you worked, what you would avoid doing, etc.
 
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Amazing congratulations, my doubt gonna be around 200k next year, do you have any advice for me. Thanks!
What is your current student loan debt? I paid off over $400,000 in 3 years. I'd love to help or give tips.

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What is your current student loan debt? I paid off over $400,000 in 3 years. I'd love to help or give tips.
I had less debt, close to $280k when I graduated 9 years ago. I had 0 worries about my student loans from day 1, because I had a plan to open offices and grow quickly. Focusing on the student loans would delay my plans, and time was/still is money. I don’t regret that decision at all.

Ofcourse, people are in different shoes in life and I would tell any dentist with student loans to pay off their student loans first - unless they can prove me otherwise.


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Zero. Dual-degree, which means a full scholarship/grant and a stipend of ~25K/year (tax free). My program was 7 years - 4 DDS, 3 PhD. Bought first practice during year 5 (2 yrs before second graduation). Not for everyone though - those were 3 years of 80 hour work weeks.
 
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$171,000 principal amount with $15,000 accrued interest -- totaling $186k with average 6% interest as of right now for Texas school, plan to pay it all off under 3 years.
 
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For those that asked for some tips how I did it, here is the cliffs note version. I have a lot more info on my website but I think it's against the rules to link it.

1. Try to come out with less debt than I had.
2. Live where the you can make the most money. Don't work where you want to live necessarily. It's a lot harder to pay off that kind of debt in San Francisco than it is in middle America. Some people think that sounds miserable. But I assure you that what really is miserable is living a life in debt.
3. "Live Like a Resident". This is something the White Coat Investor taught me. The average dental or medical resident makes around $60k. WCI challenges you to live on $60k (or give yourself a little raise up to $80k) and use the rest towards destroying debt. I found a great owning opportunity in middle America. Make around $400k gross. Lived on $75k and destroyed my debt it in 3 years. For those few years you can't drive the fancy cars, buy the fancy house, take the fancy vacations. You have to work hard and sacrifice. But I promise it's worth it in the end.

As a dentist you can't be rich and live rich. You have to choose one or the other. You can live rich but never build wealth or become financially independent.
 
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about to graduate with 120k so not bad compare to some people but still.... a lot of money.
 
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For those that asked for some tips how I did it, here is the cliffs note version. I have a lot more info on my website but I think it's against the rules to link it.

1. Try to come out with less debt than I had.
2. Live where the you can make the most money. Don't work where you want to live necessarily. It's a lot harder to pay off that kind of debt in San Francisco than it is in middle America. Some people think that sounds miserable. But I assure you that what really is miserable is living a life in debt.
3. "Live Like a Resident". This is something the White Coat Investor taught me. The average dental or medical resident makes around $60k. WCI challenges you to live on $60k (or give yourself a little raise up to $80k) and use the rest towards destroying debt. I found a great owning opportunity in middle America. Make around $400k gross. Lived on $75k and destroyed my debt it in 3 years. For those few years you can't drive the fancy cars, buy the fancy house, take the fancy vacations. You have to work hard and sacrifice. But I promise it's worth it in the end.

As a dentist you can't be rich and live rich. You have to choose one or the other. You can live rich but never build wealth or become financially independent.

How rural are we talking? Is it a super boring area relatively? Do you still have practice loan debt? How much does a $400k gross practice cost?
 
What is your current student loan debt? I paid off over $400,000 in 3 years. I'd love to help or give tips.
Are you a specialist and is some of that accumulated debt from residency? This is such an insanely quick debt payback, with an incredibly steep profit right out of school. All your advice is pretty standard. Live cheep, make money, etc. I would like to see an actual layout of your monthly pay back to make sense of this. And how you were able to make so much right out of school? With ownership? Loans there? If no ownership, how were you taking home 400K right off the bat as a GP. Sure, the math can add up if you bring home 400K a year and live off $75K, which is completely doable. I think the more eye opening point of your post is how much money you made right out of school. Not necessarily, how to get debt free quickly. I’m more interested in your advice there.
 
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Everything in life is a trade-off. Work in boring rural areas and live like a poor dental student and you should be able to pay off your student loans in 3-5 years. If you want to live in the city and drive a nice a BMW and still be able to pay off the student loan fast, then work 6-7 days/week. It's very simple. No pain no gain.
 
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How rural are we talking? Is it a super boring area relatively? Do you still have practice loan debt? How much does a $400k gross practice cost?
Middle America. Has an airport. Has some outdoors stuff. Has malls and movie theaters. No beaches or major mountain ranges. It's fine for me.
 
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Are you a specialist and is some of that accumulated debt from residency? This is such an insanely quick debt payback, with an incredibly steep profit right out of school. All your advice is pretty standard. Live cheep, make money, etc. I would like to see an actual layout of your monthly pay back to make sense of this. And how you were able to make so much right out of school? With ownership? Loans there? If no ownership, how were you taking home 400K right off the bat as a GP. Sure, the math can add up if you bring home 400K a year and live off $75K, which is completely doable. I think the more eye opening point of your post is how much money you made right out of school. Not necessarily, how to get debt free quickly. I’m more interested in your advice there.
I am not a specialist. I bought into a practice that was very busy and started making good money right away. You can find practices that make bank in middle America. If you want to do it on the coasts, it's a lot harder.
 
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I am not a specialist. I bought into a practice that was very busy and started making good money right away. You can find practices that make bank in middle America. If you want to do it on the coasts, it's a lot harder.
Was the practice investment part of the $400K debt?
 
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The $400k was strictly student loans. I also bought in to a multi doctor practice for another $500k. Add my home on to that and I was over a million in debt. Yes I have administrative duties. I am equal owner with 2 other docs.

I paid of all of the student loans in three years. I now owe about $167k on the practice loan and hope to be done with that at the end of this year. Then it will just be my reasonable mortgage. You can find out a lot about my student loan journey on the WhiteCoatInvestor post today. Freedom From Student Loan Debt: A Dentist’s Story - The White Coat Investor - Investing & Personal Finance for Doctors
 
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I read your article. A little cheesy but none the less good advice. So it’s relatively easy to find these practices in rural locations locations? Where you living in one of the five largest cities in the US before? How many hours are you working a week.
 
Is it difficult find 50 hours of work a week as a dentist?
 
Not as a practice owner

Can you talk a little bit about how you went about finding a partnership? How soon after you graduated you bought in and what kind of production you were capable of/other questions the existing partners had for you?
 
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Also, how long does it take you to do a bridge prep while we are at it? o_O
 
I read your article. A little cheesy but none the less good advice. So it’s relatively easy to find these practices in rural locations locations? Where you living in one of the five largest cities in the US before? How many hours are you working a week.

Besides the cheesiness and common sense nature of this article, this reeks a little bit of an advertisement to his/her financial services blog... and WCI has a ton of links to advertisements/sponsors. Just being skeptical, because this is how a lot of SEO/backlink content generators start to build their reputation to sell their SEO services in the future (or planning to sell consulting services in the future).
 
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I graduated with $280K from one of the UC dental schools in CA 6 years ago ( now even they cost over 400k with cost of living, unbelievable). I went with IBR then REPAYE and only pay what they ask for. Instead I bought a new condo in Orange county CA two yrs after graduation ( which has gone up in value by 20% in 4 years) and been a practice owner for 3 years now (had a partnership which I sold and own only one startup now at 100% ownership in a very competitive market in southern California ). I have no practice debt and run my office with one assistant and one OM only with Low overhead, the only debt I have is my student loan and my mortgage, I live comfortable ( not fancy but comfortable with 10-15 miuntes drive to new port beach or laguna beach ) and planning to pay off my mortgage in 2-3 years so the only debt will be my student loan (which then I decide If I wanna pay off or buy a second house or rental). Everyone's situation and expectation is different, I have friends that are doing 2-3 times better than me but are in central valley California which I wouldn't wanna be in for even one day, to me having a paid off small condo where I like to live and working for myself was a more of propriety than paying off the student loan. Now I work half as hard compared to when I worked for corporations or other dentist ( I used to average 150-160 miles/day for three years driving in CA traffic but that's what it took) and make almost twice as much, I take the CE courses that I want and practice the way I want. Used to do lots of RCT but now have an in house endo, anything beyond simple extraction I give to my Exo ( and I refer out any surgical extraction and wisdom tooth that might be difficult or complicated to O.S. ) and see no kids unless it's prophy and sealant. Bottom line it comes down to expectations and managing expenses (some people are just not OK with owing student loan, had a classmate like that who everyday complained abut the student loan, so he went rural and paid it off, I cannot do that). Having said all these, I do not recommended medical field to anyone anymore, specially dentistry or pharmacy ( I have siblings that are pharmacist). Sorry for the long rant but I think potential dental student thinking about going into dentistry should know the reality, and specializing is not much different, I have classmates who did ortho and cannot get a loan from bank to buy an office, they make good money but complain because they have to work at 3-4 different location seeing 50-70 patient a day (according to them) and commute alot ( to me Ortho is still good even if you have to commute and see volume unless you are coming out with heavy student loan which is not unheard of these days ).
 
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I do not recommended medical field to anyone anymore, specially dentistry or pharmacy ( I have siblings that are pharmacist).
This part of your post captures it all. The sentiment few of us on SDN share, and have said/are still saying to pre-dents for the past decade. Now more doctors like yourself are sharing the realities of being a dentist who carries a significant student loans.

Pre-dents... take notes!

I noticed this was your first post in 7 years... if you don’t mind sharing, what’s your current balance on your student loans? IBR payments can balloon the balance quickly.


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Besides the cheesiness and common sense nature of this article, this reeks a little bit of an advertisement to his/her financial services blog... and WCI has a ton of links to advertisements/sponsors. Just being skeptical, because this is how a lot of SEO/backlink content generators start to build their reputation to sell their SEO services in the future (or planning to sell consulting services in the future).
Yea, unfortunately that’s exactly what I was thinking. Didn’t want to be the first one to say it.
 
Can you talk a little bit about how you went about finding a partnership? How soon after you graduated you bought in and what kind of production you were capable of/other questions the existing partners had for you?
I did a GPR which helped me be much faster and more capable to produce. I bought an office myself right after that. It helped me learn a lot of how to run a business and to manage things on my own. I sold after two years. I then just networked with dentist friends and found a great opportunity to buy into. I brought to the table experience in running a business and they just had to trust me that I could produce.
 
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Besides the cheesiness and common sense nature of this article, this reeks a little bit of an advertisement to his/her financial services blog... and WCI has a ton of links to advertisements/sponsors. Just being skeptical, because this is how a lot of SEO/backlink content generators start to build their reputation to sell their SEO services in the future (or planning to sell consulting services in the future).
Just a true story. I do blog because I like to share what I learn. But there is nothing hidden going on here. Just a good intentioned article. Sorry you don't see it that way.
 
Yea, unfortunately that’s exactly what I was thinking. Didn’t want to be the first one to say it.
Well, you're both wrong. Just trying to help others. I had a huge debt burden and it really was hard on me and my wife. I found a way to dig myself out of it. Just trying to share to be helpful.
 
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Well, you're both wrong. Just trying to help others. I had a huge debt burden and it really was hard on me and my wife. I found a way to dig myself out of it. Just trying to share to be helpful.
It’s the internet. Gotta be skeptical. Appreciate you sharing.
 
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This part of your post captures it all. The sentiment few of us on SDN share, and have said/are still saying to pre-dents for the past decade. Now more doctors like yourself are sharing the realities of being a dentist who carries a significant student loans.

Pre-dents... take notes!

I noticed this was your first post in 7 years... if you don’t mind sharing, what’s your current balance on your student loans? IBR payments can balloon the balance quickly.


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It's little short of $320k now. I am not too worried as I will pay it off. I've been reading this forum and dental town before even attending dental school and barley posted anything, but today received a phone call from Aspen dental asking if I want a job because they are planning rapid expansion (literally what the recruiter said, rapid expansion) and I see other dentists saying to predents everything is ok and just keep debt low (how? like I said even public schools tuition in CA are on PAR with privates). The reality is DSOs are expanding, banks are not giving out loans that easy, and dentistry is at a race to bottom (you have to decrease your fees to survive, at least where I am ) and you face fierce competition from corporations. I've also noticed increase number of dentists promoting consulting and CEs and whatnot on the side which tells me making money in dentistry has become hard (I could be wrong), 30-40% off on reputable CE course like Dawson and Spear (with exception of KOIS which I believe is worth every penny even if you don't do any complex case) which tells me dentists are not signing up like before as they have noticed people are not spending much on dental care unless its for one tooth dentistry and getting out pain (honestly, what percentage of population has money to drop on Implants and all on 4-6-8 or FMR and upgraded dentirty). The reality is most dentists coming out of school will be GPs (under trained in dental school) findings themselves in fast pace environment doing minor surgical procedures. I had OM of one of the O.S. offices that are refer to today coming to my office giving out flyers $150 off of extraction, go figure. Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience, not trying to sound pessimistic,
and I hope I'm wrong (doubt it, most of my friends are in dentistry and pharmacy).
 
... planning to pay off my mortgage in 2-3 years so the only debt will be my student loan (which then I decide If I wanna pay off or buy a second house or rental).
Why do you plan to pay off your home loan first and not your student loan first? One of the benefits of buying a house is the mortgage interest is tax deductible. Student loan interest is not. A few of my friends took out the home equity loan to pay off their student loans.
I have classmates who did ortho and cannot get a loan from bank to buy an office, they make good money but complain because they have to work at 3-4 different location seeing 50-70 patient a day (according to them) and commute alot ( to me Ortho is still good even if you have to commute and see volume unless you are coming out with heavy student loan which is not unheard of these days ).
Back when the economy was good (in 2003), my wife and I couldn’t get a loan to buy an existing practice either. It was only a $90k loan and Bank of America denied us. My wife and I both had very good associate jobs and we are both specialists. The reason for the denial was we both owed $450k in student loans and $380k home loan. We had to obtain the business loan from another smaller unknown bank near our house…and we finally got approved for $120k ($90k purchase price + $30k working capital).
 
Does anyone know if general dentists can receive OR privileges for pediatric patients? I saw a couple GPRs give this experience to their residents. What is the deal with that?
 
Why do you plan to pay off your home loan first and not your student loan first? One of the benefits of buying a house is the mortgage interest is tax deductible. Student loan interest is not. A few of my friends took out the home equity loan to pay off their student loans.

Unfortunately, as of 2018 that is no longer allowed. Interest from a home equity loan is only deductible if it is used to make substantial improvement on the property it is taken out on.

 
but today received a phone call from Aspen dental asking if I want a job because they are planning rapid expansion (literally what the recruiter said, rapid expansion)
Aspen opened their 800th office few weeks ago, and they are on pace to open their 900th location this year. I think they are trying to top Heartland, who opened their 1,000th affiliated office last month.

Aspen alone hires 1 in 10 new grads every year, they are shooting for 2 in 10 a year. I use to work for Aspen 9 years ago, and everyone I used to work with there (doctors, assistants, front desk staff, etc) have since left Aspen and the DSO world all together.

Anyways, this “rapid expansion” is all driven by Private Equity firms now, which has a big appetite for dentistry; because the trend in dentistry is consolidations (DSO’s buying other DSO’s and private offices), dentistry is a very profitable business (ROI typically out performs markets and money sitting in saving accounts at 0.5% rate), money itself is cheap (rates are historically low to borrow money), cash flow in dentistry is predictable, and all this checks a lot of boxes to grow the DSO dental empire even more.

Meanwhile... the elephant in the room is the student loans the new and future new grads carry ($500k+). I predict DSO’s to roll out some extensive student loan assistance programs to attract more new grads into their conveyor belts. I personally know a young dentist who graduated a year ago - he joined Aspen after DS, and they were paying him $1,500-2,000 a month for his student loans. He had a crazy schedule to work hard for that incentive. This will become more common at DSO offices in the future, and the poor new grads will do anything (ethically and unethically) to keep their heads above water - to pay their high student loans back.


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Unfortunately, as of 2018 that is no longer allowed. Interest from a home equity loan is only deductible if it is used to make substantial improvement on the property it is taken out on.

It’s good to know. But at least with the home equity loan, when you make the minimum monthly payments, your loan balance is reduced. Under the IBR plan, the student loan balance increases when you make minimum monthly payments. You also have more flexibility with the home loan: you can erase the debt by selling your house or you can lower the monthly payments by refinancing it.
 
One of my former associates who went back to school to do Endo is trying to write-off his tuition and fees and interest for the 2 years residency ($250k) as a big CE course when he graduates. Is that even possible?


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I predict DSO’s to roll out some extensive student loan assistance programs to attract more new grads into their conveyor belts.
Kaiser Permanente (a health insurance company) just opened their own medical school. Maybe we’ll see the Heartland or Aspen School of Dentistry in the not so distant future.

Big Hoss
 
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As a dentist, the amount of student loan debt you're in is manageable to pay back. It just depends on how fast you want to pay it back versus how much you want to invest. I personally don't find it necessary to pay back student loan as quickly as possible. I took that extra money to buy a practice and tripled my salary after one year out. Yes I still have my student loan, but I'm in a position to pay it back quicker as well as have a higher salary as well. No I did not live like a resident, so it's possible to still live comfortable and make it work.
 
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As a dentist, the amount of student loan debt you're in is manageable to pay back. It just depends on how fast you want to pay it back versus how much you want to invest. I personally don't find it necessary to pay back student loan as quickly as possible. I took that extra money to buy a practice and tripled my salary after one year out. Yes I still have my student loan, but I'm in a position to pay it back quicker as well as have a higher salary as well. No I did not live like a resident, so it's possible to still live comfortable and make it work.
Yes, as long as you can discipline yourself not to spend your hard earned money to buy things that you don't need and use it to invest in setting up (or buying) a practice, you should have no problem paying back your student loans. However, you still have to live like a poor student for a couple years because you have more loans (student loans + business loan) to pay back. And it also takes time for your new practice (if you set one up from scratch) to make profit.

My CPA advised me not to pay off my home mortgage ASAP and that I should use the money to invest in more rental properties. But I didn't listen to him and I should be on track to be 100% debt-free by the end of this year. I know I can't be rich with this mentality but I am tired of working and worrying about paying off debts. The home price in CA is very high right now. I am going to wait until the next housing market crash.
 
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Yes, as long as you can discipline yourself not to spend your hard earned money to buy things that you don't need and use it to invest in setting up (or buying) a practice, you should have no problem paying back your student loans. However, you still have to live like a poor student for a couple years because you have more loans (student loans + business loan) to pay back. And it also takes time for your new practice (if you set one up from scratch) to make profit.

My CPA advised me not to pay off my home mortgage ASAP and that I should use the money to invest in more rental properties. But I didn't listen to him and I should be on track to be 100% debt-free by the end of this year. I know I can't be rich with this mentality but I am tired of working and worrying about paying off debts. The home price in CA is very high right now. I am going to wait until the next housing market crash.

It's a great mentality to want to pay off all debts, but most if not all wealthy people still have debt, because they are using their liquid money to keep investing. It's actually ok to have some debt, but it's hard for a lot of people to wrap their head around that. As long as you are making your money work for you. I am 2 years out and I don't feel the need not to enjoy life and live poorly. I bought an existing practice so profit is already there.
 
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Yes, as long as you can discipline yourself not to spend your hard earned money to buy things that you don't need and use it to invest in setting up (or buying) a practice, you should have no problem paying back your student loans. However, you still have to live like a poor student for a couple years because you have more loans (student loans + business loan) to pay back. And it also takes time for your new practice (if you set one up from scratch) to make profit.

My CPA advised me not to pay off my home mortgage ASAP and that I should use the money to invest in more rental properties. But I didn't listen to him and I should be on track to be 100% debt-free by the end of this year. I know I can't be rich with this mentality but I am tired of working and worrying about paying off debts. The home price in CA is very high right now. I am going to wait until the next housing market crash.
It's all about mindset. It is true that you can use leverage to make a lot of money. But this isn't always a math problem. It's a behavior problem. I think most of us are better off not keeping our debt in order to invest in other things. I do think you should max our retirement accounts first, but after that I think you should pay off your debts before doing too much investing.
 
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Yes, as long as you can discipline yourself not to spend your hard earned money to buy things that you don't need and use it to invest in setting up (or buying) a practice, you should have no problem paying back your student loans. However, you still have to live like a poor student for a couple years because you have more loans (student loans + business loan) to pay back. And it also takes time for your new practice (if you set one up from scratch) to make profit.

My CPA advised me not to pay off my home mortgage ASAP and that I should use the money to invest in more rental properties. But I didn't listen to him and I should be on track to be 100% debt-free by the end of this year. I know I can't be rich with this mentality but I am tired of working and worrying about paying off debts. The home price in CA is very high right now. I am going to wait until the next housing market crash.

If the next Northridge hits combined with a global recession, it's gonna be buying season.

It's all about mindset. It is true that you can use leverage to make a lot of money. But this isn't always a math problem. It's a behavior problem. I think most of us are better off not keeping our debt in order to invest in other things. I do think you should max our retirement accounts first, but after that I think you should pay off your debts before doing too much investing.

It feels good to pay off your debts, but I don't think it's a straightforward connection either. It is true that paying off your debt will free up your cash flow more and make you feel better about yourself, but if your debt service is not affecting your cash flow considerably (and not affecting your ability to borrow and you have better use of your money (or other people's money)), then you should wait on the debt payment to invest on more profitable enterprises. Note all those stipulations. It's not just a % return > % debt interest comparison, but must be taken in the context of the big picture of your personal/corporate situation
 
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How manageable is a $240,000 loan? Looks like a ~$2700 per month payment over 10 years. That's a lot each month but the total balance is relatively cheap nowadays.

I'm wondering how a loan around $240,000 affects your life from dentists who have actually paid it off or are in the process. Is it manageable? Crippling? Still comfortable?

How about $320,000?
I would never let my debt last 10 years. If I were you I'd pay it off in less than 5 years. Yes it will affect the home you live in, the cars you buy, and the vacations you take. But there is a time and a season for those things. You can do it in less than 5 years, I promise.
 
Good Mutual funds run 10-14% return. Government loans under $224k run 6.65%..... do the math people.
 
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How manageable is a $240,000 loan? Looks like a ~$2700 per month payment over 10 years. That's a lot each month but the total balance is relatively cheap nowadays.

I'm wondering how a loan around $240,000 affects your life from dentists who have actually paid it off or are in the process. Is it manageable? Crippling? Still comfortable?

How about $320,000?

Very manageable @240. Some people will argue that you should pay for it asap. I will counter that you should set yourself up for far greater multiplicative (I think exponential is overkill of a word) returns rather than investing in your own office. As an associate, here's how I think of it... work work work, until your net worth is zero, whereas if you built your office, you're working for yourself and your practice value goes up, your debt goes down even faster. With your own office, that 240 goes away superfast. As an associate, the clinical stress can be less, but the financial stress will definitely be felt more with the debt load. Even at 320, you could probably knock that out in a year or less as a practice owner.

Also, I know some people argue for delayed gratification, but I think that people should only delay gratification for so long. Enjoying a fast car or nice house (I would think) is not as fun when you're older. Take it from me, I'm getting old. If you can ramp up your income in a year, you wouldn't have to live like a student and actually get to enjoy life. Yes, you should save up, but make sure your quality of life is not severely affected. The feeling of mortality and understanding the limitations of our mortality has made me realize that life is too short to wait for many things. Even the point of making money becomes pointless at some point. As I've said before, the difference between 10MM and 100MM is not much in terms of quality of life. The former is enough (for me). Beyond that is just a d!ck measuring contest... pointless and superficial.
 
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Yes but any money you invest you will have to pay tax on profits... so if you make 14% then when you sell you will give close to 50% of that to the government. Paying student loans are effectively earning 6% after tax. Plus 14% in a mutual fund is optimistic
 
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