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What is your school's start to finish success rate?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Staphylococcus Aureus, May 6, 2018.

  1. It's lupus!

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    Oh. I haven't personally seen that yet. I'd definitely disagree with that sentiment.

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  3. chizledfrmstone

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    Where did you get the 247 number? Does it include the fellows from c/o 2017 or the people who were held back from c/o 2017?
     
  4. Stagg737

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    On the MD side and in the past on the DO side this was generally the correct advice. However, with the completion of the merger looming and the possibility of DO applicants getting squeezed out, the validity of telling someone to just attend the cheapest school is declining.

    I looked in the "purple script and line-up" book they gave us at the rehearsal. It lists the number of people graduating from each program (DO/MA, DO/MBA, DO only) which included the fellows. I just added up the number of people in each program and it came to 247. Plus when you look at the AOA data given in the placement rate document and calculate our 245/247 achieving residency placement, the percentage was exactly the same as one of the programs listed. So I'd assume it's at least very close if not exactly correct.
     
  5. TeddyBoomBoom

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    I don’t know, man. I have followed your posts for years and I’ve learned a lot from your material. Also, my experience may be colored by my own individual school.

    However, my class now has 1/4 fewer people at graduation than on day one.

    I realize that some of those were repeating students from earlier classes, but having such a large number of students repeating years of medical school doesn’t make me feel better. As I understand, COCA “suggests” that a certain percentage of repeating students (8% ?) can be added to the maximum class size every year. I find it likely not a coincidence that my school fails around that number every year(+$$$$.)

    It’s crazy that at my school, students failing full years is so common, that we now accept that it’s more difficult to easily get good attrition rates, because at any given time 20% of your class was from the class above you or is going to the class below you!

    I can’t personally speak to the differences in 6 yr graduation rates for students of MD vs DO schools, but I will say that the differences for delaying graduation are often extremely different between those two cohorts.

    The vast majority of graduation extensions at MD schools are due to research projects. MD students certainly do repeat years for academic issues, but it is very uncommon. I have numerous friends in both cohorts, and my MD friends look at me like I’m an alien when I talk about literally 25-30 people in my small class failing or repeating. It’s just not a thing.

    Again, this post is not really to argue with Hallowman (he’s contributed to the board way more than I ever could,) but just to give a little bit more perspective to anybody that might be reading.
     
    #154 TeddyBoomBoom, May 11, 2018
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  6. jkdoctor

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    Why are the numbers like this?
     
  7. WorldChanger36

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    Being from the same school as Mr BoomBoom here I would also like to add that it is also not uncommon that Carey fails a student then requires they do a master program at the school of which many do well in only to fail second year and either have to repeat again or are dismissed. Those repeating years often dont pass the second attempt sad I know. I mean we have people fail 3rd or 2nd year and restart from 1st. The school also pushes people to repeat 1st year if they had any medical leave or left and came back for personal or academic reasons. Honestly I wish it was as easy as saying its the students and most of the time it is but some time the school would do things like teach the wrong material or mis score a test and fail students because of it. They also give horrible advice to like if you are failing two classes you should just fail one so you dont fail both and students would almost always take that advice and fail both anyway.
    Our attrition rates are terrible, my class was thought to be the exception until 2nd year where a ton of people that did the masters program failed out and were dismissed.
    We have the worst attrition and the worst placement rates in the USA, but if you think COCA is gonna do something they wont.
     
  8. hallowmann

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    So 25% is a lot. We graduated with >85% of our class that we started with. That's after 4 years. If you've already lost 25%, then something is going wrong.

    I will say that there are plenty of newer/lower tier MD schools where people are held back, fail or delay boards, or take a "research year" because they aren't ready to apply or are off-cycle. Sure, at the more competitive schools you have more people actually planning on research years for their residency app, but we have a tendency to talk about MD schools as if they are all top 20s. I had a fair number of friends in MD schools as well.

    WCU has a problem. Its had a problem long before they were hit with a natural disaster. I had been hearing about them and horribly low pass-rates, graduation rates, and match rates since I started med school. Something is wrong, and its sad that they have policies that seem to prey on weaker students.

    As for COCA, I've lost faith in them ever since they eliminated the minimum placement requirement. They actually had made some positive strides in the last 5-10 yrs with regards to education requirements and policies, but after they basically erased that article (initially recommending a placement rate of >97%, then requiring a placement rate minimum of 95% averaged across 3 yrs) from the requirements because of school pressure, it became obvious they were working solely in the schools' interests.
     
  9. Pezeveng

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    COCA is a joke and is truly at the crux of the current (and future) problems of osteopathic medical students. Not the AOA. Not your local DO advocacy group. COCA. Just one quick example. When the overacceptance problem happened at Touro, we were placed on probation by COCA for only 1 month! COCA officials came to campus and it wreaked of "old boys club." Most of the student concerns that were brought up during the meetings didn't change. COCA holds no weight. The LCME will eventually will eventually take over just as the ACGME did.
     
  10. Tozanzibarbymotorcar

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    Umm...COCA is a committee of the AOA
     
  11. PathoTurnUp1865

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    In my class (incoming 3rd year), we’ve had one drop out, one repeat first year and probably ~3-4 that probably should either be kicked out or repeat a year. Those 3-4 will most likely fail boards so it’ll be interesting to see what happens to them. We started out at 115. Our year is suppose to be one of the ‘better’ years too so we will see what happens after boards.
     
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  12. Steve_Zissou

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    I see a lot of references to new schools. What do you guys quantify as a new school? Founded after 20XX? Lacking full accreditation?
     
  13. WorldChanger36

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    I would say a school is new if it has graduated less than 4 classes.
     
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  14. WorldChanger36

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    It also doesnt help that our MSPEs have alot of negative/ language and are overall weak documents. I have read MSPEs from some great students and the way the MSPE reads it makes it seem like the school doesnt them. They also have a very strange way of determining class rank that lets people that have failed years and classes out rank those that havent. I swear the deans at our school just have no idea how bad they screw us.
    Carey just isnt going to be fixed with the administration we have.
     
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  15. Stagg737

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    Those numbers are insane, and I didn't think they were true at any DO schools either. In my starting class of ~275 we had 6 or 7 people who had to repeat first year and that was supposedly high for us. My class had 2 of the previous first years join us and 2 people join us in second year (and one was because he took a medical LOA). I'd be interested to know if there are other DO schools with numbers like that as I'd certainly never heard of anything like that outside of the Caribbean...
     
  16. BorntobeDO?

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    Ah hem - LUCOM -126/162, ACOM - 144/162 (5 year rate) KYCOM - 124/135 (5 year rate)
    I am sure there are others, but I am going for low hanging fruit at this point (and assuming that these numbers aren't inflated). 2018 Summary by College
     
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  17. ButterButter

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    Holy balls, 275 in one f'ing class? That's criminal. But to your point: 6-7/275 is ~2-2.5%. My class was 106 when we started (100 entering + 6 remediating). At the end of 1st year, two of the remediators failed out, two of the first-time first-years failed (had to remediate) and two just quit to do something more existentially gratifying. I think since that first year, we've lost 2 others, but one was due to family issues. Not sure what to make of it. Sometimes schools take borderline candidates and they have a tough time rising to the task.
     
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  18. Lets_Run

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    Just for academic reasons or what?
     
  19. PathoTurnUp1865

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    Academic; maybe a couple for behavior.
     
  20. Stagg737

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    While the ACOM and KYCOM numbers aren't good, a 90% 4 year rate wouldn't be terrible and I believe there are a few MD schools that also have numbers like that. Also in the case of KYCOM, I'd actually applaud them for not allowing inadequate students not to continue (if that's what happened) while at the same time being disappointed by the low admission standards. Plus if there's only 11 people not graduating it doesn't say a whole lot without knowing why they didn't graduate. I know 7 or 8 people in my class who were doing fine academically but dropped for personal reasons or because they just hated it. If that were the case at KYCOM (who knows what the real reasons were...) then only losing 3 or 4 people for academic reasons seems much less egregious to me, especially if they're making sure people who shouldn't be treating patients aren't going to get to do that.

    Why? it's only the 9th largest med school in the country with many of the larger ones being MD schools. If you look at the AAMC enrollment data in the link there's actually 7 MD schools in the US with over 1,000 people enrolled, so class sizes of 250+. Some of them (UIC, IU) have class sizes well over 300 (enrollment of 1,4000+). Seeing as my school has historically graduated most of it's matriculating students (my year was rough due to changes in administration, curriculum, and several people dropping of their own accord or taking LOAs for personal reasons) and has had a placement rate of 100% four years in a row followed by 99%+ this year (2/~250 went unplaced this year), I don't see why it's criminal. I agree with the rest of your statement, but I'd also add that if a school takes a borderline candidate, especially off the waitlist, and that person ends up not being able to cut it that the school should let that person go instead of dragging them through to end up as a crappy doc or not match at all.

    https://www.aamc.org/download/321526/data/factstableb1-2.pdf
     
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  21. ButterButter

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    Interesting. I wasn't aware so many schools had classes that exceeded 250. It's tough to imagine a DO school successfully moving that many students through each year because my school seems to struggle intensely with 100 per class. Kudos to your school for managing those numbers and still putting up good stats.
     
  22. CajunMedic

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    Don't get me started on the whole "Recommend, Strongly Recommend, Highest Recommend" thing that they did the "Oh, by the way, here's how your MSPE is ranked" at the end of a 3rd year callback. Along with the "No, we're not re-calculating your GPA to include your 3rd year grades". At least my SLOE's offset it...
     
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  23. WorldChanger36

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    I just hate how horrible it is. Be in the top 50 of the class? Good luck with that, when people can just replace an entire failing year and they dont count students that left the class. Failed a few courses no problem, you get a C anyway. Had to earn that C on your first attempt same as if you failed it... they pushed so many people out of the highest recommended range because of that. Thing also reads like some homeless junkie wrote it, loaded with misspellings, inconsistencies and stuff that just false, like the percentage for how 3rd year grades are calculated isnt true at all.
    And 4th year grades aren’t included at all so what is the point of having any grades in 4th year.
     
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  24. Goro

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    This is behavior that's outright sadistic and malicious.
     
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  25. WorldChanger36

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    I dont think it sadistic or malicious I just think they just have no idea what they are doing, don’t understand the harms of what they do, actually feel they are helping us and get really upset when someone hints that maybe the policies they have are not the best.
    Believe me they just dont catch on, they will burn class after class and when the placement rate continue to drop they will conclude it must be a bad batch of students.
     
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  26. Dr.Jekyll75

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    MSU has 325 per class


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  27. PathoTurnUp1865

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    All the problems my school has could be fixed by just listening to the students. They do the same thing, blame the students and either move on or try to implement some other strategy that won’t work. The whole Kaplan bs they tried putting on us this year was two steps backwards.
     
  28. NVO

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    Would probably be a lot worse if the school wasn't so lenient on students who fail classes.
     
  29. Goro

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    These are people who are supposed to be running a medical school.
     
  30. WorldChanger36

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    I know.... We say it to ourselves everyday. We just put our heads down and chrge forward. Not like we can transfer or expect change.
     
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  31. DNC127

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    I am pretty sure someone from WC transfered to OSU this year lol
     
  32. Stagg737

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    At my old school? Probably not. My school was actually a lot harsher on people who failed (in the past couple years) than most medical schools are. The vast majority of medical schools, both MD and DO, try to do whatever they can to get their students through once their accepted. I actually met one individual (MD) who had failed 3 classes in the first 2 years and also failed a clinical rotation and was still allowed to graduate. No way that would fly at my school.
     
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  33. Solodyn

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    I actually believe this will happen one day. Maybe sooner than we think. 2025-2030?
     
  34. ButterButter

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    Hard to imagine AOA/COCA relinquishing control. What would they have to gain?
     
  35. Solodyn

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    http://macyfoundation.org/docs/macy_pubs/JMF_MedSchoolExpansion_WebPDF.pdf

    If you read the conclusion, there are talk of merger of MD/DOs already. The document is prepared by Douglas Wood DO PhD, who is a long time AACOM President. It wouldn't surprise me if DOs become MDs in 10 years.

    I can see the LCME/COCA merger can take place similar to ACGME merger. This will get the DO expansion stuff under control. Then again, who knows....
     
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  36. WorldChanger36

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    Pretty sure as in, rumor is or pretty sure as in said person is sitting right next to you? I have never heard of a successful transfer from our school.
     
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  37. theoriginalsandman

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    Graduating WC 4th year here...+1 on worldchanger36 and cajunmedic Yeah it’s a real uphill battle all the way. My MPSE was an absolute piece of garbage. I believe it was written by a secretary due to the colloquial language and numerous typos even after I sent in corrections on three separate occasions. It was impersonal to the point as though they had never met me. They posted wrong grades, they had my class rank wrong and were indifferent about fixing it. And also because I was not in a club and did not attend DO day on Capitol Hill I was informed they cannot give a high recommendation. They did not tell us this until our call back during third year when there was absolutely nothing we could do about it. It’s not malicious it’s complete and utter incompetence. I think fortunately it did not affect my residency match because it was so poorly written most PDs just ignore it.
     
    #186 theoriginalsandman, May 17, 2018
    Last edited: May 17, 2018
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  38. theoriginalsandman

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    Between second and third year my class had a student successfully transfer out to nova. I believe it was done with the fight and approved because of a family member illness which required this person to be closer to home.
     
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  39. DNC127

    DNC127 Im just here so I don't get fined.
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    I know that someone transfered here from one of the southern schools... I thought WC but could be wrong
     
  40. parslea

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    Great read, thank you.
     
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  41. Stagg737

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    I've heard similar things from an individual who was up there in AOA administration. If you think about it, there's a pretty simple and logical path that this could take:

    Once the merger is complete, there is no reason to have 2 separate sets of board exams. The ACGME could easily require that anyone seeking residency will be required to take USMLE which would make COMLEX completely meaningless other than to appease COCA and the AOA. However, if that happened it's likely DO schools would simply shift their focus to teaching to the USMLE instead of COMLEX, especially if USMLE pass rates were too low. I think that would eventually lead to the phasing out of COMLEX altogether. ACGME could also require applicants to take NBME shelf exams instead of NBOME shelfs, at which point there is no longer any purpose for the NBOME to exist as a licensing entity at all other than just to make money. Once all of the licensing requirements and pre-requisites between DOs and MDs for residency are the same, then the ACGME/LCME will hold all the power and could make a legitimate attempt to strong-arm the AOA into an amalgamation of the two degrees.

    The biggest challenge of this would be wrestling the financial aspect away from COCA and fighting the political backlash, which if new DO schools keep opening and it leads to increased attrition, lower match rates, and lower board scores and pass rates, they'll have a pretty strong argument for a hostile takeover. To tie this back in to the actual topic of the thread, if DO schools start heading in the direction of Carib schools and have terrible 4 year graduation rates, it's just going to be more ammo for those who want integration of the two degrees. It will also likely hurt the newer schools far more than the older ones which have the experience and resources available to manage a change like that.

    The other reason I think this could feasibly happen is that, imo, the AOA does not have the same level of support from the younger generation of DOs than it does from the old guard. Most of the younger generation either doesn't believe in OMM or is at least skeptical of many of the techniques. Even more of us just can't stand the AOA and many of the hoops that we have to jump through and still have a bias held against us. So when the time comes and that AOA starts looking for help from their own, I don't think they're going to get the level of support that they'll need.

    Of course, this is all complete speculation and there's a chance that none of this will happen. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the DO degree and schools were absorbed into the MD world, as there are too many other issues facing physicians today and on the horizon for us to be fighting with each other. So the sooner this all gets figured out the better imo, but I'm also sure this would not be a smooth transition and that there will be a fight as there has been in the past with issues like the merger.
     
  42. ortnakas

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    I’m the class behind you, and if my math is correct, we’ll be right around 88% at four years next week as well. There’s a few people who started with your class, and a few who will graduate next year but are now back on track.

    85-90% seems reasonable. People have babies, deaths in the family, struggles with boards, personal illness, etc. I’m not worried about those kind of numbers, especially since the remaining 10-15% seem to graduate (and match) in year 5 just fine.
     
  43. hallowmann

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    Congratulations! Be sure to have some fun with friends and family before commencement. The actual ceremony is crazy long, but getting that diploma is an awesome feeling.
     
  44. sab3156

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    Yep, we have failed a bunch of people out already, in first year. Pretty sad.
     
  45. Dr.Bruh

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    That is an overstatement. I know more people who left bc of personal reasons than bc of academic (at least at the KC campus this is the case can’t speak for Joplin). Those that have failed also are given a chance to remediate. I know 2 people who are not remediating even though they can. Not really on the school when they don’t want to do it.
     
  46. sab3156

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    I should clarify - failed out of first year and told to remediate. I know plenty of people who have failed several classes first year. A lot of people are being told to remediate, and I know several. I don't even know many people in our class, so it's striking to me. This shouldn't ever happen in a US medical school. The curriculum at KCU is a mess, and it's a bit too much of a burden for a number of people who would probably not have failed classes in a medical school with a more organized curriculum (I know this for a fact because I have actually taken medical school courses at a competitive MD school, and the difference is night and day). I would say that if someone fails neuroscience by one percentage point (I know a couple of these people) because the first exam was written by the Joplin professors who taught completely different material and emphasized completely different things than the KC professor... then yes, it's absolutely 100% on the school.
     
    #195 sab3156, May 21, 2018
    Last edited: May 22, 2018
  47. PorkChopsOG

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    I think the amount of people who have left, just by going on the numbers online. I know many of them left for personal/medical/family reasons. While our courses had some sticky points along the way I do not believe the sky is falling. What happened in neuro was absolutely horrible, but there is a reason the curve exists.
     
    #196 PorkChopsOG, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  48. theoriginalsandman

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    As a recent WCUCOM grad (just over a week ago), I was waiting to see the actual number of people who walked across the stage before I posted our stats.
    Class of 2018 started with 112 students including 6 who had failed back into first year (originally class of 2017). Of those original 112 we had 81 graduate ~72%. If I remember correctly 4/31 we lost left for personal reasons and the remaining 27/31 who left were academic failures. I don’t know how many each year but generally speaking OMS1>>OMS2>>>>OMS3/4.
    Of note the 2018 graduating class actually had 87 members graduate last weekend, 4 of whom were original members of class of 2017 who were held back in OMS2 and 2 took a break OMS4 for personal reasons.
    Some context to the failures: OMS1 PHYS sunk many students. The course was so bad (poorly taught, disorganized and spiteful) they asked us in early OMS2 to come back in on saturdays to make up for what we did not learn in OMS1. Obviously the students revolted and probably threatened suit so the compromise was Kaplan questions. Since then the old Dept head and another main faculty member were replaced. Apparently the new faculty are much better and I suspect there will be a downturn in failures as a result.
    Anatomy sunk quite a few as well. A big culprit was OPP. The grading was completely subjective and people failed the course over complete nonsense. As of next year the dept is completely new faculty hopefully problem solved.

    The true match data has also been closely guarded but we were able to parce out some info based on informal polls from the students.
     
  49. PorkChopsOG

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    72%? Holy **** that is abysmal.
     
    BurntFlower and Steve_Zissou like this.
  50. theoriginalsandman

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    I wish it wasn’t true.
     
  51. sab3156

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    I do not find it very acceptable that 5% of students are leaving/failing out/whatever from an American medical school. People use the excuse of "personal reasons" all the time, by the way, for anything. I personally know of several who failed, too.

    A lot of MD schools don't even have any spots for transfer even if they allow transfer because they work hard to keep their students.
     

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