What jobs make more than doctors?

[zapproximator1]

What jobs make more than doctors?
I would suggest that the median of medicine is unbeatable but the outliers in business (especially tech and finance) are much, much higher. So, a top performer in medicine will earn great money. But a true top performer in business will earn insane money. For example, I know people who work in enterprise sales for big software companies (Microsoft/Salesforce/Oracle/IBM etc) who pull in half a million every year and have broken seven figures several years. Of course, less consistent than medicine but the top quartile is pretty incredible.

Also, BigLaw lawyers with a ton of experience, MBB consulting partners, investment bankers, hedge fund/private equity/asset management, etc.

And of course, business owners.

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[chemdoctor]

The thing with those business owners, is that it has a lot to do with luck so...

 

[Goro]

What jobs make more than doctors?
I would suggest that the median of medicine is unbeatable but the outliers in business (especially tech and finance) are much, much higher. So, a top performer in medicine will earn great money. But a true top performer in business will earn insane money. For example, I know people who work in enterprise sales for big software companies (Microsoft/Salesforce/Oracle/IBM etc) who pull in half a million every year and have broken seven figures several years. Of course, less consistent than medicine but the top quartile is pretty incredible.

Also, BigLaw lawyers with a ton of experience, MBB consulting partners, investment bankers, hedge fund/private equity/asset management, etc.

And of course, business owners.

Google is your friend

 

[Peter Pan.]

For every successful business owner there are 100s that are unsuccessful. And most of the successful ones aren’t making more than doctors. I’ve got friends with business degrees. 2 of them are going back to school and the others don’t have much.

 

[el_duderino]

There's no other degree or industry where you are basically guaranteed a $200,000+ salary for life. Yes, medicine doesn't generally have the big salary potential of management and finance, but the floor and median in those fields is much lower.

Engineering and law are two of the things that get close outside of other medicine-related degrees like PharmD and PA. A high end engineering or law degree gives you a very high chance at a long 6-figure career.

 

[907914]

Is being Oprah considered a job? Can I get a masters in Oprahology?

 

[Peter Pan.]

The job market for law has gone down and might get worse. I have a sibling and in law who are lawyers.

 

[321931]

Easy answer. Most jobs may not make MORE than a Doctor, but the net worth is BETTER then a doctor.

Computer science, accounting engineering, business owners, pas/nurses/dentists, plumbers, electricians.

Why? Because they graduate with less debt, start working at 22, have accumulated 10-15 years worth of income that is most likely invested at 7% returns, with minimal debt, and growing their net worth. Doctors have 10+ years of debt that has been compounded 7% interest before they even start MAKING money. Yes they may make good money but the net worth comparatively may be less compared to someone who is frugal, working a decent job, and investing well with minimal debt.

Comp sci, engineering, accounting, dentists, plumbers, electricians also have the option of owning a business that will significantly dwarf the medical doctors return.

Simply put, its the interest accrued debt, lost opportunity cost that sets you back- even if you come out swinging making a large salary. Regardless medicine will provide you a comfortable lifestyle...but man it's a long road to get there. If I went the medical route, I would STILL be in school today...and man that would be rough.

 

[zapproximator1]

For every successful business owner there are 100s that are unsuccessful. And most of the successful ones aren’t making more than doctors. I’ve got friends with business degrees. 2 of them are going back to school and the others don’t have much.

This fails to account for selection bias. The average physician is of a higher academic and persistent nature than the average Joe with a business degree.

 

[zapproximator1]

>Also, BigLaw lawyers with a ton of experience, MBB consulting partners, investment bankers, hedge fund/private equity/asset management, etc.

None of those are not equivalent to being a doctor. You mean lawyer (make less) and MBA(less). You could also go into Pharma and make more, Healthcare admin make more, even consulting/investment banking hire physicians. Know a few medical researchers who jumped to healthcare investing and clear 7 figures with none of the struggle of working their way up or "up or out" mentality.

Outliers MD/DOs can make just as much or more money. One thing is true that there are limits on being a clinical practitioner (even though I'm sure Dr Simon Ourian makes at least 7 figures). But that's true of every field, you either go into management/ownership or you make low six figures at best.

Alright...

1. BigLaw =/ Law in general. The BigLaw salary scale begins around $190k at year 1 and reaches $415k by year 8. If you make partner, that's 7 figures.
2. Wall Street =/ finance is general. Wall Street pays really well. An experienced investment banker, hedge fund/private equity/vc executive, etc. earns multi-six figures and often seven.
3. Very true. Although, not sure about the feasibility of any doctor getting into McKinsey etc. My understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that elite consultancies and investment bankers tend to recruit physicians primarily from top schools e.g. Harvard Med vs a random US MD/DO school.
4. Sorry about how ignorant this is going to sound, but how does healthcare investing work?
5. Not sure - compare the Goldman Sachs CEO to a big medical group CEO. Or the best hedge fund manager to the best neurosurgeon. There is a disparity, simply based upon the size of each transaction.
6. Very true, except of course, there are highly-compensated surgeons who don't own or manage. But as a general rule, absolutely.

Let me know your thoughts BMRMike

 

[907914]

>Simply put, its the interest accrued debt, lost opportunity cost that sets you back- even if you come out swinging making a large salary. If debt wasn't an issue- then it would be more equal with other professions.

Very very wrong. Lifetime earnings for physicians vs other specialties is several millions more. You would need to put away over 50k a year for 10 years (medschool plus 6 year residency) to get close to making up that deficit.

It is the same debate with medical school as well of cost benefit of doing the HPSP. It is financially worth it for family practice and internal MED but starts to break down the higher up the specialties list and longer you stay in the military.

 

[Isoval]

Pretty much every other profession has people who make more than some of the highest paid doctors.

Chief executives for every type of business profession, be they CFOs, COOs, CTOs, or CEOs.
World renowned artists, performers, and actors, making tens of millions in professions we all view as jokes in college.
The chemistry PhD who works for big pharma as director of one of their large industrial operations.

But none of these fields have a median or floor anywhere even remotely close to physicians.
You can roll the dice for the 0.00000001% chance of becoming the world-famous actor making 100m/year, or you can settle for the 100% chance of being a doctor making 300k/year.

 

[zapproximator1]

Isoval, I believe this is the right way to look at it.
However, there are realistic paths for people with the same caliber, academic ability and drive as someone who could become a successful physician to make even more, for example working for a large tech company. The number of massive salaries for talented engineers and salespeople at the big tech companies - it's insane. Same with Wall Street of course, and people who climb the corporate ladder. Of cost, cost of living is a factor which sways in favor of medicine

 

[321931]

[/QUOTE]

>Simply put, its the interest accrued debt, lost opportunity cost that sets you back- even if you come out swinging making a large salary. If debt wasn't an issue- then it would be more equal with other professions.

Very very wrong. Lifetime earnings for physicians vs other specialties is several millions more. You would need to put away over 50k a year for 10 years (medschool plus 6 year residency) to get close to making up that deficit.

There isn't a right or wrong answer to this, but alot of it also depends on luck and timing. There are jobs that you can get ahead and the reason : opportunity cost. Medicine is a long road that will result in a good stable job.

 

[DokterMom]

This fails to account for selection bias. The average physician is of a higher academic and persistent nature than the average Joe with a business degree.

There's an awful lot of youthful optimism and naivete in this. You appear to think that all that's needed to succeed fabulously is intelligence and hard work. As a somewhat older person who has lived though more than one of the famously high-earning careers, that simply isn't the case. There's a boat-load of schmoozing and politicing that goes on, networking, leaveraging connections, salesmanship, and just plain luck. You don't make BigLaw partner because you have a brilliant legal mind. You make partner because you're a freakin' RAINMAKER.

Pretty much every other profession has people who make more than some of the highest paid doctors.

Chief executives for every type of business profession, be they CFOs, COOs, CTOs, or CEOs.
World renowned artists, performers, and actors, making tens of millions in professions we all view as jokes in college.
The chemistry PhD who works for big pharma as director of one of their large industrial operations.

But none of these fields have a median or floor anywhere even remotely close to physicians.
You can roll the dice for the 0.00000001% chance of becoming the world-famous actor making 100m/year, or you can settle for the 100% chance of being a doctor making 300k/year.

This. You can accept the substantial downside risk and potentially make the same or even a lot more in many other fields. But medicine, if you can make it through, guarantees against financial downsides and unemployment risk.


Plus you're saving lives.

 

[Peter Pan.]

This fails to account for selection bias. The average physician is of a higher academic and persistent nature than the average Joe with a business degree.

The numbers and salaries speak for themselves. You wanna get a business degree and maybe spend your days answering phones or go to med school and get a guaranteed 200k+?

Selection bias doesn’t have a lot to do with it. You don’t have the opportunities in business like you do medicine. And people with successful businesses can lose it all in a matter of time depending on supply and demand and the job market. With medicine you don’t have to worry about that. With new inventions and advanced technology businesses are always at risk or losing it all. Business is fickle.

 

[zapproximator1]

DokterMom, thank you for this. I really appreciate it. You're right, I think I was overemphasizing the role of intelligence and hard work. Great points, thank you.

 

[Osminog]

If you want to vie for a chance at becoming filthy rich one day, go to a T14 law school or a T20 MBA program, or spend a couple of years learning how to code exceptionally well and move to Silicon Valley. If you have the intelligence and motivation to gain admission into a US medical program, then you likely would be able to find greater, or at least comparable, financial success in another field that you're passionate about (if such a field exists).

 

[zapproximator1]

What do you all think about the possibility of a single-payer system in the US - and the future of physician income?

 

[zapproximator1]

Also, sorry if any of this is absolutely ignorant or stupid on my part, just a curious high school student. Thank you so much for your input everyone!

 

[907914]

What do you all think about the possibility of a single-payer system in the US - and the future of physician income?

Single payer would likely reduce physician salary by between 25-30%. But if we are ever at a political point where single payer is being passed, tuition free schooling is likely as well. So lower salaries but no debt. Still, physicians would come out lower but who cares? Better patient care is vastly more important than physician salary.

 

[dr_kateb]

Better patient care is vastly more important than physician salary.

Whoa whoa whoa. Speak for yourself.

 

[yogglo]

i hear kingpins make a lot

 

[dr_kateb]

i hear kingpins make a lot

 

[Osminog]

Better patient care is vastly more important than physician salary.

Under single payer, patient care wouldn't be better. In fact, it'd probably be worse, on average. But it would be more equal, and that's all that's important to some people.

 

[907914]

Under single payer, patient care wouldn't be better. In fact, it'd probably be worse, on average. But it would be more equal, and that's all that's important to some people.

Giving access to everyone at the detriment of a few I think is good.

 

[Ligament]

Dont go into medicine for the money.

Opportunity cost. You loose 10 years of your life in school. This also means relationships. Forget about your friends and social life for most of your training.

School loans. Astronomical.

Age. You are old and tired by the time you are ready to START your career.

Compensation; physicians make less and less every year, consistently. No indication this is going to reverse.

EVERYBODY hates you; the fed government wants to turn you into an indentured servant with socialized medicine. The state wants to regulate you out of existence and replace you with know-nothing midlevels like nurse practitioners, who by the way are very insistent to call themselves "Doctors" to obfuscate who they are to their trusting patients. The public hates you because 1) they feel you make too much money 2) healthcare is a "right" and therefore you are a greedy, selfish person for expecting to be paid for your decades of sacrifice and training (funny they have no problem with the vampiric leech hospital administrator making $800,000 doing nothing but making money off YOUR work, or their evil med-mal attorney suing you at a $600/hr rate, thereby making money off YOUR work in reverse!!!).

Big negative nobody else has: medicolegal risk. You are at CONSTANT risk of being sued. You WILL be sued, for certain, unless you do some form of NON clinical medicine. Even if you win, or the case is dropped, you will have constant angst, anxiety, and possible guilt about the case possibly for years (some of these suits last a long time).

Patients will sue for the stupidest reasons. I was sued by a patient in which my procedure HELPED him...documented on his pain logs and follow up visits. No complications at all. In other words, he benefitted in every dimension from the procedure. He sued me anyway because his workers comp case was closing and he wanted money and did not care who he hurt in the process. His suit was so baseless his own attorneys fired him and refused to represent him. Therefore he represented himself in the suit. The judge finally dismissed the case as groundless. But this whole process took almost a year.

By the time you are in practice, private practice will be eliminated by state and federal forces and you will be a hospital employee at best, federal employee at worst. We all know the federal government never, ever does a good job at anything other than propagating itself. Things will get much, much worse.

If you are smart enough to get into med school, and you are most concerned about money, do not go into medicine. Go into anything else. Chances are with your brains you'll do well.

The only reason to go into medicine is if:
1. You are rich (or get a full med school scholarship/very cheap med school tuition if that exists any longer) and can pay for the school debt and have no concerns about future income
2. You cannot be happy doing anything else.

 

[dr_kateb]

Giving access to everyone at the detriment of a few I think is good.

Mob rule is never good.

 

[321931]

Dont go into medicine for the money.

Opportunity cost. You loose 10 years of your life in school. This also means relationships. Forget about your friends and social life for most of your training.

School loans. Astronomical.

Age. You are old and tired by the time you are ready to START your career.

Compensation; physicians make less and less every year, consistently. No indication this is going to reverse.

EVERYBODY hates you; the fed government wants to turn you into an indentured servant with socialized medicine. The state wants to regulate you out of existence and replace you with know-nothing midlevels like nurse practitioners, who by the way are very insistent to call themselves "Doctors" to obfuscate who they are to their trusting patients. The public hates you because 1) they feel you make too much money 2) healthcare is a "right" and therefore you are a greedy, selfish person for expecting to be paid for your decades of sacrifice and training (funny they have no problem with the vampiric leech hospital administrator making $800,000 doing nothing but making money off YOUR work, or their evil med-mal attorney suing you at a $600/hr rate).

Big negative nobody else has: medicolegal risk. You are at CONSTANT risk of being sued. You WILL be sued, for certain, unless you do some form of NON clinical medicine. Even if you win, or the case is dropped, you will have constant angst, anxiety, and possible guilt about the case possibly for years (some of these suits last a long time).

By the time you are in practice, private practice will be eliminated by state and federal forces and you will be a hospital employee at best, federal employee at worst. We all know the federal government never, ever does a good job at anything other than propagating itself. Things will get much, much worse.

If you are smart enough to get into med school, and you are most concerned about money, do not go into medicine. Go into anything else. Chances are with your brains you'll do well.

The only reason to go into medicine is if:
1. You are rich (or get a full med school scholarship/very cheap med school tuition if that exists any longer) and can pay for the school debt and have no concerns about future income
2. You cannot be happy doing anything else.

The single biggest change in medicine that maybe coming is: single payer system. Healthcare is the topic of debate in every election.

Single payer systems and more transparency in medical costs have been talked and talked and talked about. Every election it comes up. But things do change, and things may change. History has shown us time and time again that things change from civil rights, to equal rights, to whatever rights. Don't be surprised if healthcare becomes a right administered by the gov.

 

[DokterMom]

What do you all think about the possibility of a single-payer system in the US - and the future of physician income?

I don't see straight 'single-payer' as being politically viable in the US within my lifetime, but 'single-payor PLUS' -- so single-payer as a baseline with 'better-if-you-can-afford-it' as a possibility many years hence.

If you want to hedge your bets, look for a specialty where you have some room for the 'PLUS' customers -- derm, plastics, ophthalmology -- any of the specialties where more money gets you more/better options.

 

[965978]

Single payer would likely reduce physician salary by between 25-30%. But if we are ever at a political point where single payer is being passed, tuition free schooling is likely as well. So lower salaries but no debt. Still, physicians would come out lower but who cares? Better patient care is vastly more important than physician salary.

A lot of issues in healthcare aren’t just about getting access to a physician. It’s about getting access to resources.

A physician can make prescriptions, referrals, and recommendations. But getting access medications, therapy, imaging, labs, and care facilities is where the most difficulty comes in. The physician has little authority over the financial barriers to getting these resources.

 

[907914]

A lot of issues in healthcare aren’t just about getting access to a physician. It’s about getting access to resources.

A physician can make prescriptions, referrals, and recommendations. But getting access medications, therapy, imaging, labs, and care facilities is where the most difficulty comes in. The physician has little authority over the financial barriers to getting these resources.

You don’t think that rural hospitals would expand those kinds of programs if they didn’t have to worry about losing money on it? I might just be optimistic, but I feel like if we’re all hospitals and clinics didn’t have to worry about the potential’s of losing money they would bring on more services to better serve their patients.

 

[907914]

Y’all have mixed feelings on Oprah.Is it the Masters? Would Oprahology be a post-doc program?

 

[965978]

You don’t think that rural hospitals would expand those kinds of programs if they didn’t have to worry about losing money on it? I might just be optimistic, but I feel like if we’re all hospitals and clinics didn’t have to worry about the potential’s of losing money they would bring on more services to better serve their patients.

You just might end up losing money if the single payer reimbursements aren’t enough to barely break even. It’s why some places don’t accept Medicare (which is technically a single payer system restricted to the elderly demographic).

 

[Ligament]

You just might end up losing money if the single payer reimbursements aren’t enough to barely break even. It’s why some places don’t accept Medicare (which is technically a single payer system restricted to the elderly demographic).

I stopped taking Medicare a few years ago because I was loosing money seeing medicare patients, plus opening myself to countless legal risks due to their ever growing impossible to comply with regulations. Did you know it is a crime to treat a medicare patient for FREE? Sad, as they are my favorite population.

 

[907914]

You just might end up losing money if the single payer reimbursements aren’t enough to barely break even. It’s why some places don’t accept Medicare (which is technically a single payer system restricted to the elderly demographic).

Except overall costs would come down because you would no longer have to have so many administrative staff (billing, scheduling, insurance...)

 

[Ligament]

Except overall costs would come down because you would no longer have to have so many administrative staff (billing, scheduling, insurance...)

View attachment 263692

You are kidding, right? The hallmark of the federal goverment is endless, growing staff of useless bureaucrats who don't do their job and cannot be fired, ever. You would have exponentially more useless zombies.

 

[907914]

You are kidding, right? The hallmark of the federal goverment is endless, growing staff of useless bureaucrats who don't do their job and cannot be fired, ever. You would have exponentially more useless zombies.

You think that having one single payer system would have more useless people than 100 different competing insurance systems?

 

[Ligament]

You think that having one single payer system would have more useless people than 100 different competing insurance systems?

Absolutely. The federal government has failed at every social program it has ever initiated. The federal government needs to be completely eliminated from interfering with the doctor patient relationship.

Hell, it cannot even keep Medicare alive. It is insolvent and the BUTTload of money I've paid into it over my life will never be returned to me when I am medicare eligible. Why do you think they could manage healthcare for the entire nation if they cannot even keep Medicare alive? Actually, they have grossly mismanaged Medicare from the beginning, they have a multi-decade long track record of being completely incompetent.

The answer is LESS federal interference, not more. We need to get the federal government OUT of the way.

 

[965978]

You think that having one single payer system would have more useless people than 100 different competing insurance systems?

Absolutely. The federal government has failed at every social program it has ever initiated. The federal government needs to be completely eliminated from interfering with the doctor patient relationship.

The answer is LESS federal interference, not more.

Also want to add the Medicare is never used alone without a supplemental from a private carrier.

 

[965978]

Except overall costs would come down because you would no longer have to have so many administrative staff (billing, scheduling, insurance...)

View attachment 263692

Is this graph including insurance employees under “administrators”. Because if it is then that pretty much negates your point.

 

[Dr panda]

Senior Software Engineers in Silicon Valley, base salary 150,000+ plus stock options that could worth up to a million over years, you don't even need college degree for this, just know how to code and take couple classes in algorithms and data structures. Folks with PhDs make around 300,000, I heard about one guy in Facebook who pulled over 500,000 last year. If money is important for you, there is no better place than software development. Couple years of experience and you can easily make your 6 figures. Add awesome benefits, such as paid vacation up to few months, personally know a guy who has it (but he has over 15 years of experience in very hard field), and you are good to have enjoyable life without 11+ years of school and residency. There are 18 year old high school drop outs who already make their 6 figures, but they are probably very talented and motivated. Don't pursue medicine for money, there are tons of better and easy options.

 

[zapproximator1]

But consider cost of living. The Valley is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. You can make bank as a successful private practice physician in a super cheap random area.

 

[Dr panda]

But consider cost of living. The Valley is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. You can make bank as a successful private practice physician in a super cheap random area.

I live in not most high tech state and we have offices of Silicon Valley companies, may be the make like 120+, but adjust to cost of living, it is a great salary.

 

[907914]

But consider cost of living. The Valley is RIDICULOUSLY expensive. You can make bank as a successful private practice physician in a super cheap random area.

Champlain-urbana, Illinois. The Silicon Valley of the Midwest

 

[M&L]

The job market for law has gone down and might get worse. I have a sibling and in law who are lawyers.

I am not sure if it is true, but someone told me that pretty much you need to graduate from top law schools to get a shot at a great career, otherwise chances are you will just be pushing paperwork for years... If it is the case it is so sad. I mean, I am lucky that my dream was to become a doctor, because the job market is good (of course, depending on the specialty, but still). But what about all those people who are like us, but instead of wanting to be a doctor, they want to be lawyers? I feel so bad for them...

 

[zapproximator1]

Champlain-urbana, Illinois. The Silicon Valley of the Midwest

Not really, I live in state and U of I is a top-tier CS school. There aren't a ton of companies there, it's more than the big tech companies recruit there for Bay Area positions.

 

[Isoval]

Isoval, I believe this is the right way to look at it.
However, there are realistic paths for people with the same caliber, academic ability and drive as someone who could become a successful physician to make even more, for example working for a large tech company. The number of massive salaries for talented engineers and salespeople at the big tech companies - it's insane. Same with Wall Street of course, and people who climb the corporate ladder. Of cost, cost of living is a factor which sways in favor of medicine

It's erroneous to assume that those who go on to medical school and become physicians are inherently better/smarter than those who do not, which is what this statement assumes.

Not every smart person in the world wants to go to medical school, and not every person in medical school is smart.

It comes down to this: we succeed at the things we actually give a damn about.

 

[Peter Pan.]

I am not sure if it is true, but someone told me that pretty much you need to graduate from top law schools to get a shot at a great career, otherwise chances are you will just be pushing paperwork for years... If it is the case it is so sad. I mean, I am lucky that my dream was to become a doctor, because the job market is good (of course, depending on the specialty, but still). But what about all those people who are like us, but instead of wanting to be a doctor, they want to be lawyers? I feel so bad for them...

Yeah I got to know some of my siblings friends from law school. A couple of them aren’t even doing work in law. And one guy doesn't make enough for his wife to stay home with the kids so she has to work (she really wants to stay home with the kids). So many of them are wishing they did something in healthcare instead.

 

[Robin-jay]

One thing I've learned in life is that most luxury does not always come in the form of money, but often TIME.

Medicine doesn't always offer you the luxury of time. Keep that in mind. It can be sleep depriving, tiring, stressful, and full of many "you have only one chance" situations such as pass or fail exams and boards everywhere, surgeries, and so on.