What makes attendings not teach their residents?

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LUCPM

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I am a 1st year resident in an unopposed FM program, currently doing my EM rotation. I really enjoy working with some of my attendings who are willing to teach, engaging, and at least letting me have some autonomy for uncomplicated patients. However, I noticed some attendings don't seem to be interested in teaching, often do their own things, and don't even let me do things I used to do as a med student no matter how much I'm willing to try. Instead, they often use me for scut work. I really hate to sit around and do nothing, especially when my attendings take away most of my responsibilities and leave me only scut work. I don't mind doing scut work as long as they let me take care of some of my own patients. What makes them not teach residents? How do I get them to give me more autonomy? It's not like I'm trying to take care of someone with respiratory failure or cardiogenic shock on my own....

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I am a 1st year resident in an unopposed FM program, currently doing my EM rotation. I really enjoy working with some of my attendings who are willing to teach, engaging, and at least letting me have some autonomy for uncomplicated patients. However, I noticed some attendings don't seem to be interested in teaching, often do their own things, and don't even let me do things I used to do as a med student no matter how much I'm willing to try. Instead, they often use me for scut work. I really hate to sit around and do nothing, especially when my attendings take away most of my responsibilities and leave me only scut work. I don't mind doing scut work as long as they let me take care of some of my own patients. What makes them not teach residents? How do I get them to give me more autonomy? It's not like I'm trying to take care of someone with respiratory failure or cardiogenic shock on my own....

Are you rotating at a place that doesn't have an EM residency? That could be why. If you are a place with a training program, oftentimes the off service rotators aren't that interested and you might be unfairly lumped into that. Finally, some folks just don't care.
 
I am a 1st year resident in an unopposed FM program, currently doing my EM rotation. I really enjoy working with some of my attendings who are willing to teach, engaging, and at least letting me have some autonomy for uncomplicated patients. However, I noticed some attendings don't seem to be interested in teaching, often do their own things, and don't even let me do things I used to do as a med student no matter how much I'm willing to try. Instead, they often use me for scut work. I really hate to sit around and do nothing, especially when my attendings take away most of my responsibilities and leave me only scut work. I don't mind doing scut work as long as they let me take care of some of my own patients. What makes them not teach residents? How do I get them to give me more autonomy? It's not like I'm trying to take care of someone with respiratory failure or cardiogenic shock on my own....

Racerwad touched on some good points. Additionally, if the department is very busy they may simply not have time. The quote from house of god "show me a medical student who only triples my work and I will kiss his feet" comes to mind. I know you're not a medical student anymore but at this stage you are certainly providing a net slowing effect rather than a speeding one.

And again, some people are just dinguses.
 
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If its just a mandatory rotation in a hospital that doesn't have an EM program then the docs in the ER are not faculty, probably most are community docs that really don't want to teach or aren't interested. Plus, with off service rotators there are usually striking differences in the level of interest. Enjoy the shifts with those that like to teach but you can't really do much about the others.

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Ok, I'll bite. Having worked in multiple settings that have "unopposed" other-services rotate through the ED, I will propose that you are most likely in a community setting, in a hospital with an academic bent via an FM residency but realistically still a community hospital with a community, private-practice, metrics driven ED. If these assumptions are accurate, some percentage of your ED physicians simply do not want to teach. Even for the presumed majority who are happy to teach, you are unfortunately an intern out of your turf in a busy, time-sensitive environment. IMHO, interns in community hospitals are woefully underprepared to optimize their learning or patient care despite potential general awesomeness, and such rotations should be explicitly limited to the 2nd and 3rd years of residency. There is a huge advantage to knowing how to enter orders - I can't tell you how many times I have had fix orders because they were entered on the inpatient side - and knowing the system and knowing the attendings. At this point, I enter orders while the resident presents because it gets done quickly and right. Your attendings likely know the difference between IM, FM and ED residents and, most importantly, what needs to happen in the ED. If you want to optimize your learning experience, communicate concisely but often & often before actions. I want to know who you are going to see -- and yes, I may be in and out of the room before you even finish preparing your note sheet, because I have to see the patient anyway -- but I don't mind you signing up on the board and going to see a new patient if you can't tell me right away. Focus your presentation, hit the pertinent positives, have a clear differential that is mentally organized by "worst first" while simultaneously knowing what you think is really going on, don't minimize abnormal vital signs. If you can do all those things, then you may propose appropriate treatment and a focused workup as indicated to rule out badness. If not, at some point I'm going to focus you to try to teach you some of those skills, and you are going to feel like you have lost autonomy because you have. Keep ahead with labs, and it might be "CBC is back, BMP pending still"; if you see the potassium of 1.9 before I do and say so then your next words should be, "I can order supplemental K" (and Mg for absorption, though that's often a teaching point). It does help to follow the basic rules for learning, like having goals, communicating goals concisely (to each attending, sorry), etc. I will set some rules for you as part of my standard introduction. Some of your attendings do not want to teach. Some love to. Some will try to teach, and it will be secondary to appropriate ED care.
 
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Three things, two of which have already been said. I agree you've got to be in a setting that is only obliquely academic, where most ED attendings aren't going to care for residents period, regardless of specialty.

Two:
oftentimes the off service rotators aren't that interested and you might be unfairly lumped into that.

This x100. Even in very academic settings, being anything other than an EM resident is to your disadvantage. When I was rotating through the ED as a student, I loved working alongside rotators from other specialties, because they sucked so bad and made me look awesome. Not saying you suck...but a lot of your colleagues do. Most rotators are too slow, lack interest in doing things like intubating/placing central lines (it's basically illegal to dislike these things), and **** the bed in high acuity situations. In short, rotators are the exact opposite of what you want manage and teach as an ED doc. Since you're an FM resident, the expectation is that this will be your MO. Hey could be worse, if you were OB you'd be relegated to every single vag bleeder, STI, and female with abdominal or pelvic pain.

The third thing is that in all settings, across all specialties, there are some attendings that are good teachers, and some who aren't. In some ways what you're describing could be par for the course for any resident in any program.
 
Ok, I'll bite. Having worked in multiple settings that have "unopposed" other-services rotate through the ED, I will propose that you are most likely in a community setting, in a hospital with an academic bent via an FM residency but realistically still a community hospital with a community, private-practice, metrics driven ED. If these assumptions are accurate, some percentage of your ED physicians simply do not want to teach. Even for the presumed majority who are happy to teach, you are unfortunately an intern out of your turf in a busy, time-sensitive environment. IMHO, interns in community hospitals are woefully underprepared to optimize their learning or patient care despite potential general awesomeness, and such rotations should be explicitly limited to the 2nd and 3rd years of residency. There is a huge advantage to knowing how to enter orders - I can't tell you how many times I have had fix orders because they were entered on the inpatient side - and knowing the system and knowing the attendings. At this point, I enter orders while the resident presents because it gets done quickly and right. Your attendings likely know the difference between IM, FM and ED residents and, most importantly, what needs to happen in the ED. If you want to optimize your learning experience, communicate concisely but often & often before actions. I want to know who you are going to see -- and yes, I may be in and out of the room before you even finish preparing your note sheet, because I have to see the patient anyway -- but I don't mind you signing up on the board and going to see a new patient if you can't tell me right away. Focus your presentation, hit the pertinent positives, have a clear differential that is mentally organized by "worst first" while simultaneously knowing what you think is really going on, don't minimize abnormal vital signs. If you can do all those things, then you may propose appropriate treatment and a focused workup as indicated to rule out badness. If not, at some point I'm going to focus you to try to teach you some of those skills, and you are going to feel like you have lost autonomy because you have. Keep ahead with labs, and it might be "CBC is back, BMP pending still"; if you see the potassium of 1.9 before I do and say so then your next words should be, "I can order supplemental K" (and Mg for absorption, though that's often a teaching point). It does help to follow the basic rules for learning, like having goals, communicating goals concisely (to each attending, sorry), etc. I will set some rules for you as part of my standard introduction. Some of your attendings do not want to teach. Some love to. Some will try to teach, and it will be secondary to appropriate ED care.

Your assumption about community hospital with an unopposed FM residency program is correct. I agree that we are "woefully" underprepared to handle high-acuity patients in the ED but 7.5 months into intern year with daily clinics (at least in our program), it would be unusual if we don't know what to do with the same low-acuity patients who come through the fast track with intermittent RUQ abdominal pain. And by now, after spending 1.5 month in the ED, we have become familiar with ED orders. Sure, we all struggle at one point but this is one of the things that we learn fairly quickly. I am under the impression that some of these community docs are often impatient and easily forget they, too, went through the same process of learning. I get that if they don't want to teach or it will be secondary to ED care but I just don't appreciate when they are mostly using their residents for scutwork, especially after signing up for having residents in their shifts.
 
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especially after signing up for having residents in their shifts.
Some of them will do it because scribes cost money, and residents are free.
Half of the attendings out there are below average.
 
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Your assumption about community hospital with an unopposed FM residency program is correct. I agree that we are "woefully" underprepared to handle high-acuity patients in the ED but 7.5 months into intern year with daily clinics (at least in our program), it would be unusual if we don't know what to do with the same low-acuity patients who come through the fast track with intermittent RUQ abdominal pain. And by now, after spending 1.5 month in the ED, we have become familiar with ED orders. Sure, we all struggle at one point but this is one of the things that we learn fairly quickly. I am under the impression that some of these community docs are often impatient and easily forget they, too, went through the same process of learning. I get that if they don't want to teach or it will be secondary to ED care but I just don't appreciate when they are mostly using their residents for scutwork, especially after signing up for having residents in their shifts.

You're assuming that they "signed up" for you to be there. It might have been an edict passed down from above. Many community physicians avoided academics to avoid teaching. Depending on how the EPs there are compensated, simply having around might make them feel as though it is costing them RVUs. Also, even though many of the patients that come through the ED are of the same acuity as those in the clinic, the context is different and the approach to the workup is also different (for better or for worse).

Anyhow, complaining to us isn't obviously going to change anything - if you feel as though there is really is minimal education and only scut, tell your PD. Ask them what they think you should be getting from this experience and if your reality doesn't jive with their perception, then hopefully something will be done about it.
 
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