What to do when you believe program is discriminating because of an underlying medical illness

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

luckyt66

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
111
Reaction score
15
So I am currently in my PGY-I year, and a new health concern recently arose, based off which my doctor recommended me to try to avoid 24-hr calls. To be honest as well as proactive in expressing my concern so possible accommodations could potentially be made before the program made its call schedule for the following year, I went and discussed the same with my PD.

Since then, I am suspecting if there are background politics going on. I had my mid-way eval a few weeks after I spoke with my PD- and I received a fail on ALL SIX core competencies (but never received any disciplinary action or warning or discussion with PD or any attending of any 'concerns' with my performance in the previous 6 months). Then a few days ago, my program told me that I received a 'fail' for my inpatient psych rotation in February (which I was equally shocked about)- some of the mistakes they pointed out were minuscule, while several other negative things they said weren't really substantiated. I received a lower rating and a worse overall comments for this past month (4th month of inpatient psych this year) than my first month of residency, which I simply find ridiculous and implausible.

I am not sure what's going on with my program behind-the-scenes, but I feel they are trying to make me look a poor applicant academically so maybe they can fire me or not re-offer me a contract (since it's illegal to do that for a medical condition right??)

What rights do I have as a resident? Can I contest the fail for this past month as I believe it's highly unjustified? How do I go about such a situation??

Would appreciate any advice someone would have or any insight if anyone has been through something similar. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more specifics regarding my health, program, or the exact situation.

Thanks.

Members don't see this ad.
 
My advice would be to seek legal representation. Try to find an attorney experienced in employment law in particular, bonus if they have ever represented doctors or residents before. If you call some local attorneys they can often point you to one or two colleagues that might be able to assist you. Initial consultations are usually free, and then you will have an attorney familiar with your details for a vigorous defence if you are treated unfairly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/things-to-do-to-shine-in-pgy-1.1188633/#post-17640862

This is a lot of info and some of it may or may not be helpful. It's more than you had yesterday.

Learn how to do an SDN search if you don't know how. It's the google-like box upper right hand corner. You can put in my username if you want to search my past posts or threads I've commented in.

You can PM me but I can't promise what I can do in response to help.

In the info I gave you:
1) Basic self care, now

2) If that includes medical care, for mental or physical health issues, there are ways to obtain it that can be better or worse for a medical career from a medicolegal perspective. This is fact. Safe medical care should be sought when needed.

3) If one is in trouble with their program, aside from making sure they are taking care of themselves physically, mentally, medically, they might consider legal counsel. Legal counsel can help getting basic self care and getting treatment, and protecting a medical career.

4) Focus on remediation. The article you provided is a good start to the topic. This last part, in my links I discuss how one might legally, with or without an attorney, protect themselves while not antagonizing their program.

5) In my links are some ideas for how to improve in the areas you mentioned. I have had residents and attendings tell me it was worthless drivel. I have had residents who self identified as struggling thank me for it. It's free and I think is worth more than a punch in my nuts.

6) Read heavily searches on SDN related to probation, remediation, transferring, dismissals, terminations, resignations. I think what I post might be a little roadmap through some SDN experience and opinion threads.

The topic of whether or not one is put on probation, continued, fail probation, allowed to repeat rotations or even a year, be summarily dismissed, is complex.
So is transferring. To a different program, same specialty, or a different specialty entirely. Cases are discussed on SDN to give you an idea of what has happened to others.

But if using all of the powers of your program, yourself, family, mentors, treating physicians, Jesus, and SECRET legal advice, remediation or transferring is not likely, then things may be moving towards dismissal/termination. They may offer to let you resign. As soon as I suspected I was on this road, I would at least consult an attorney.

A negotiated voluntary resignation is usually much much better than a termination.

It is true that one can seek legal counsel, like any advice, and make things worse.

7) I am not a lawyer. I am not offering medical advice. Free opinions, consider, research, discard or use as you see fit. Godspeed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I know a resident who "voluntarily resigned" for medical reasons, and the situation was similar.

You can search my post history for the following terms, and it should help. I am amassing links here to threads that may have helpful information in helping you learn the "system."

Best bet is an ADA attorney, someone who specializes in employment law. If they get the board involved (this can happen if they put you on probation and it is of the type that must be reported to the board) then you can find an attorney that specializes in board dealings. Any attorney that specializes in board dealings will have experience with physicians with medical conditions, although it would be hit or miss if they know of an ADA/employment law type attorney.

If you get such an attorney, they will likely not be very familiar with residency and its policies. Use SDN and search my post history for the below terms, and you will be able to learn some ins and outs of what is possible so you can help an attorney figure this out.

ADA
disability
chronic pain
mental illness
termination
dismissal
remediation
probation
remediation
attorney

from attorney search
all links, you might want to peruse, or I may have more than one useful post
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/imminent-termination-need-serious-advice.1094676/
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...el-like-im-ready-to-quit-intern-year.1150554/
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/list-of-programs-that-terminate-residents.659494/
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/terminated-residents.679006/#post-16763215
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/contract-non-renewal.1135362/
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/at-will-employment.1165514/#post-17024509

partly applicable
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...ability-accommodations.1179885/#post-17333196

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...as-a-bipolar-physician.1050906/#post-17343867
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...ression-how-to-proceed.1196932/#post-17693047
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...king-for-ethics-debate.1200918/#post-17767251
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...cy-and-confidentiality.1204291/#post-17830672

this one suggest ideas about documenting, and spells out what one might be able to negotiate if they are forced to resign
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...smissed-yet-reinstated.1238198/#post-18546899

ideas on seeking medical care
https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/resident-friend-joked-about-suicide.1116935/#post-16240368

I may continue to post here as I try to consolidate a guide for residents in hot water
 
  • Like
Reactions: 11 users
If call is part of the deal you should have to take call
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If call is part of the deal you should have to take call
Sorry, this is wrong. I know you are repeating what hospitals, programs, and maybe even senior residents have told you and is the conventional wisdom in many places, but it isn't right.

People have no control if or when illness or other tragedy strikes. One day, unless you are very lucky it will happen to you, and I hope you are at a place in your life where you can weather the storm. But that time when you can weather illness or tragedy easily is not residency, especially PGY1. I've known residents who were diagnosed with cancer, narcolepsy, involved in a bad car wreck, one whose single father suddenly died leaving three young siblings, and another whose spouse got involved in drugs and committed suicide. I've seen inhumane hospitals and inhumane directors (thank God not mine) ruin residents careers and leave them in insurmountable debt from med school with no job to pay it going forward. To three residents credit, they fought and clawed and made it anyway. Two others committed suicide and left medicine with huge debt.

In these situations programs need to be accommodating. If that means allowing a leave of absence and maybe bringing in some more help for call, the program needs to do that instead of just telling people to suck it up and implying the resident is weak or unfit, or dumping all the indisposed residents work on his or her fellow residents and trying to turn the whole program's residents against the "weakling." Being inhumane to residents doesn't make people better doctors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 24 users
Reading things like this makes me hope I ranked my match list right lol..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users
Sorry, this is wrong. I know you are repeating what hospitals, programs, and maybe even senior residents have told you and is the conventional wisdom in many places, but it isn't right.

People have no control if or when illness or other tragedy strikes. One day, unless you are very lucky it will happen to you, and I hope you are at a place in your life where you can weather the storm. But that time when you can weather illness or tragedy easily is not residency, especially PGY1. I've known residents who were diagnosed with cancer, narcolepsy, involved in a bad car wreck, one whose single father suddenly died leaving three young siblings, and another whose spouse got involved in drugs and committed suicide. I've seen inhumane hospitals and inhumane directors (thank God not mine) ruin residents careers and leave them in insurmountable debt from med school with no job to pay it going forward. To three residents credit, they fought and clawed and made it anyway. Two others committed suicide and left medicine with huge debt.

In these situations programs need to be accommodating. If that means allowing a leave of absence and maybe bringing in some more help for call, the program needs to do that instead of just telling people to suck it up and implying the resident is weak or unfit, or dumping all the indisposed residents work on his or her fellow residents and trying to turn the whole program's residents against the "weakling." Being inhumane to residents doesn't make people better doctors.

Yes, it is absolutely correct that there is leeway in how to address call.

Accredited programs have to abide by the requirements from the governing accrediting boards for the specialty, ACGME, state medical board, Federal & state law, rules set forth by Medicare if they receive those dollars.

It would up to the board overseeing the specialty if 24 hour call is considered an essential part of the educational experience. Typically the issue isn't, "hey, can you work 24 hours straight??" as much as an argument that covering a service at night presents challenges that are instrumental to a resident's medical education and would not be able to be gained at other times. That is easy to address by simply having the resident do night shifts. As far as working them into their schedule, there are ways to do this.

This can mean more call for other residents and say less or none for the affected resident. This is not considered discrimination to the other residents as long as it is not done arbitrarily and reasonable attempt to equalize the schedule is made, all else permitting.

The other point raised typically has to do with continuity of care. Again, there are rules regarding this, and there would be ways to address this. This would also vary by specialty. Again, if it is not required by the board that one do 24 hour call for education, than the length of shift can be adjusted.

The other issue with this as a "reasonable accommodation" is that the program will likely argue that it is too disruptive to the schedules or there simply aren't enough bodies or people to supervise in such a scenario.

This may be true in some programs. It is certainly the argument of programs that don't want to do it. Other programs can, and have, made this accommodation.

It doesn't matter if call was in the contract. If the condition is covered under ADA, the change will not substantially affect the resident's education per accrediting boards, and the legal system determines that the program has the ability to accommodate the change in terms of coverage and what else needs to be done to educate the resident (additional night shifts etc), then shortening or eliminating 24 call for medical reasons would not be grounds to terminate the resident.

TLDR:
Aside from what an accrediting board would say,
being able to do 24 call is NOT typically required to complete a residency
There are programs that require call that have made the accommodation for medical reasons to eliminate 24 hour call for a particular resident
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
You should consider discussing this with your DIO. He or she wants PDs to go by the rules and if you threaten legal action, it will be his or her headache.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Sorry, this is wrong. I know you are repeating what hospitals, programs, and maybe even senior residents have told you and is the conventional wisdom in many places, but it isn't right.

People have no control if or when illness or other tragedy strikes. One day, unless you are very lucky it will happen to you, and I hope you are at a place in your life where you can weather the storm. But that time when you can weather illness or tragedy easily is not residency, especially PGY1. I've known residents who were diagnosed with cancer, narcolepsy, involved in a bad car wreck, one whose single father suddenly died leaving three young siblings, and another whose spouse got involved in drugs and committed suicide. I've seen inhumane hospitals and inhumane directors (thank God not mine) ruin residents careers and leave them in insurmountable debt from med school with no job to pay it going forward. To three residents credit, they fought and clawed and made it anyway. Two others committed suicide and left medicine with huge debt.

In these situations programs need to be accommodating. If that means allowing a leave of absence and maybe bringing in some more help for call, the program needs to do that instead of just telling people to suck it up and implying the resident is weak or unfit, or dumping all the indisposed residents work on his or her fellow residents and trying to turn the whole program's residents against the "weakling." Being inhumane to residents doesn't make people better doctors.
I'm fine with taking a leave of absence if you can't perform the required tasks. It's not ok to just bow out of call.
 
who is trying to bow out of call. No call would unlikely count as a "reasonable adjustment" if caused undue burden, but why should anyone have to take 24hr call? It was optional at my program for the most part (and I preferred it so I have fewer days on call but others preferred not doing so). There are all sorts of chronic medical conditions that would be exacerbated by doing 24hr calls (e.g. bipolar disorder) and it most absolutely is a reasonable adjustment to have the call schedule changed. Hell, we accommodated the schedule so that jews didnt have to work shabbat, it is perfectly reasonable to not do 24hr call if you are taking call in other ways.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 users
I've dealt with this more than once. I did it about right if I do say so. In every case, the person's classmates hated him/her and accused me of being too soft, and the person themselves accused me of not doing enough. That was the happy medium every time. Let's face it, if your program is moving this hard and fast to build a case against you, no matter what legal council you get or no matter how much out of the program support you have, you will not be graduating from this program most likely. Your program may be the definition of evil and unfair, but if this is true, you will be moving on anyway. You need to have a conversation with your dean. I have seen deans work out transfers to good places when motivated to do so.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
who is trying to bow out of call. No call would unlikely count as a "reasonable adjustment" if caused undue burden, but why should anyone have to take 24hr call? It was optional at my program for the most part (and I preferred it so I have fewer days on call but others preferred not doing so). There are all sorts of chronic medical conditions that would be exacerbated by doing 24hr calls (e.g. bipolar disorder) and it most absolutely is a reasonable adjustment to have the call schedule changed. Hell, we accommodated the schedule so that jews didnt have to work shabbat, it is perfectly reasonable to not do 24hr call if you are taking call in other ways.

Like, I dunno, 2 separate 12 hour shifts. Genius, I know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)
You should consider discussing this with your DIO. He or she wants PDs to go by the rules and if you threaten legal action, it will be his or her headache.


Made an appointment with the DIO (also chair of GME) for tomorrow. In what manner could I bring this up most professionally. And anything NOT to say??

Thanks everyone. Appreciate the responses
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hell, we accommodated the schedule so that jews didnt have to work shabbat

If you sure as **** don't roll on Shabbos then you sure as **** don't take call.
 
Made an appointment with the DIO (also chair of GME) for tomorrow. In what manner could I bring this up most professionally. And anything NOT to say??

Thanks everyone. Appreciate the responses

Remember, no one is your friend.
Anyone including co-residents can me made a witness.
Dot all your i's and t's when it comes to work, like in your notes, reported work hours, etc.
Even the pissy notes from nurses, "MD called. Assessment still not made," when you didn't go bedside for bull****, and they are just RN-ass covering, can look bad. "Dr. Sos and So is not responsive to staff concerns."
Some of it you can't do much about. Just be aware of what a sweetheart you need to be to everyone, including the janitor.
Likeability is the only thing that can "save" you, or at least let you leave this program with some decent LORs.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...smissed-yet-reinstated.1238198/#post-18546899
Good guide on how to document what happens.

Always make it clear you are willing to do whatever it takes to complete the program, you just want to see if there's any way to work together to balance program scheduling with your physician's recommendations for your health. You just want reasonable accommodations for your medical conditions.

Please please please get yourself an attorney and say very little overall. The link above says how to document, this will help your attorney.

When it comes to ANY criticism, DO NOT SAY ANYTHING that can even appear to deflect responsibility in any way. Trust me, it can be tempting to try to defend yourself, but this will just be used against you. "Lacks insight into deficiencies," "unable to take responsibility," "blames other for mistakes," etc etc

"I realize that my performance needs to improve in X ways. I would appreciate a remediation plan to help me address/develop those skills."
"I am willing to repeat any amount of time, including the year, if that is possible and felt to be the best way for me to continue my training here."
"If an extension of my training time or additional nightfloat is necessary, I am willing to do that."

You might worry that agreeing with every nasty thing they have said is just helping/feeding into the nasty case they are building about you that says you are the worst resident on Earth, but they can do this despite anything you say.

The only thing you can control is what comes out of your mouth, and that it doesn't just add fire to the flame. That's why you don't want a single quote that out of context sounds like anything other than a totally committed resident that accepts all responsibility. A resident that sounds REMEDIATABLE. Issues that could get better with pointed feedback and training.

If something is due to your medical condition, you can say, "I feel that my medical condition has contributed to that aspect of my performance. I would like to keep working on my condition in conjunction with my medical providers and the program to address that and improve."

If it is something that is related to character, "Your seniors and attendings have felt that you are not receptive to feedback." You could say, "I apologize if I have come across that way, that was never my intent. Intent aside, I recognize part of being a team player is how you come across to others. I would like to work on that with feedback."

"Character" issues like insight, willingness to take feedback, honesty, it is hard to make a case that those are "remediatable," (somewhere I have a long post on what to say/not say and discusses how to seem remediatable.)

So never never lie. If a case is made, "well, what you said wasn't true, as evidenced by ___ in the notes, or what your senior/attending said,"

You can say, "I apologize, misrepresentation was never my intent. To the best of my ability at the time, I believed what I documented was true, but I must have made an error. I recognize that documenting with accuracy is necessary skill to work on." "I fully acknowledge I may have remembered that incorrectly, I never intended dishonesty. It was miscommunication, which I need to work on."

DO NOT bring up that now you feel you are subject to the negative halo effect.
Don't talk about the microscope.
This next bit, is extremely difficult, because on some level you want documentation that you are worried that discrimination is taking place.

You can say that, "I recognize that all of the program's efforts have been aimed at improving my performance. I think that I might benefit from accommodations for my health condition. I would like to work with my physicians, the program, and HR to put in place the best plan for all involved. I have some concerns that in addition to how my performance is impacted by my condition, for which I take full responsibility, and need to improve on from a personal medical and professional standpoint, that under the current plan, I'm having difficulty in determining what aspects of the feedback I am given is due solely to my performance, or if there are some perceptions about my illness that is affecting that. I think a plan that is specific and actionable, with guidelines about feedback, might address this by making things more clear. While I recognize several areas in which I need to improve, I am concerned about discrimination due to my condition."

If they say you are a danger to patients, "It's possible my condition may be affecting my performance. I am committed to working with my healthcare providers to continue to get my health under control, and the program in order to practice safely with my condition. If the program does not feel that with adequate or increased supervision that I can continue to work safely for patients and myself, than I would ask for an immediate leave of absence as an accommodation for my medical condition that the program is aware of. I would ask that no further disciplinary actions be taken against me during this time while I recover so that I can return safely. I would ask for 2 weeks while I meet with my providers and the program to determine the conditions for my safe return. I put patient safety first and foremost."

The italics would need to be in writing.

The italics are verbatim for invoking your ADA rights for your health condition that were given to someone I know from an ADA attorney. Do not let them terminate or dismiss you. As long as you are officially an employee, you have a lot of rights. The second they terminate you, then this becomes a wrongful termination suit, is ugly, you have no rights, not likely to win. As long you stay an employee, even if you're toast at this program, you have leverage to negotiate a better release.

I have more ideas, but I hope this gives you an idea for the flavor you want at your meeting.

TLDR:
DO NOT TRY TO DEFEND YOURSELF OR EXPLAIN AWAY ANY DEFICIENCIES NO MATTER HOW BULL****
"Not my intent, will work on"
"Due to my illness, will work on"

The only thing you should "fight," are things that make you seem unremediatable - and I don't mean when they say you're too slow, too ___ to be trained/accommodated, I mean if they try to make it sound like you're willfully being bad or a liar. Bad character stuff.

If you must, you can invoke leave for your condition if:
you condition meets the ADA definition - you need an attorney
it is currently impacting your work
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Gawd I'd wish I'd had this much support when I was going through stuff. Get support, talk to the disability office, and seek out a lawyer BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Good luck navigating this, do you have all your evaluation comments printed out? May be nice to have in case some manage to disappear or get lost.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I don't have any experience to offer, but I would like to say that I've seen enough of these threads out there to realize that a lot of times a resident's difficulties become readily apparent in their communication with the forum. However, your conduct seems appropriate and professional. Best of luck to you with this. It seems like a hard spot, but that professionalism is essential on the path to a second chance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
We should all remember that none of us know the OP or have any data about his/her performance and only his/her report of the program's behavior. That being said, both sides are better off when the OP understands the process, when to go over his/her bosses head, and how to do it right if indicated. I don't think there is a DIO in the world that wants to be ignorant of potential litigation, and short of that, DIOs always want things done right if they end up in probation or suspension. That is why they work in the resident's favor almost always when performance is being miss reported.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Update: Met with DIO yesterday.

In short- was useless.

Started off saying he is there to help residents, etc. Was professional and listened to my whole story. Then told me he was aware of me failing and thought it was appropriate from the comments given by the attending. When I stated that I didn't agree with all the comments she made, he stated she is only one who can judge me and she must have given her honest opinion- stated that I should focus on myself and move on, etc.

Overall, REPEATEDLY kept saying "I am sure your medical illness/announcing your decision to apply to other programs" didn't have ANYTHING to do with your evaluation. Kept saying he was very "CONFIDENT" of that and that he could assure me that it had no impact on my eval.

But, how can be so "sure" or "confident" when he wasn't there or didn't know? (know what I mean guys...?). Just really seemed to be sticking up for program throughout.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Here was my inpatient attending's eval of February:

"xxx is having difficulty in all areas of the rotation. He is having difficulty gathering information via chart and directly from the patient. difficulty managing time to do thorough record search, difficulty establishing rapport with pt, difficulty asking the right questions to get the right dx. Difficulty presenting the info he has gathered both orally and written. Because of the above, he often does not arrive at the appropriate dx. or treatment. There have been at least 4 med errors. (not ordered, not d/c) which have compromised patient care."


This evaluation is simply horrible. If I saw this, I would say the person needs to be on probation and not just fail a rotation. BUT I feel everything written here is exaggerated (on different levels) or unsubstantiated. Regarding the med errors, I don't believe any were something that significantly affected patient care. On that note, I will give an example (that I also gave the DIO to understand the unfair situation I was finding myself in, but to no avail)- the attending once saw an order for seroquel 400 QHS, but double-checked and saw that the patient was taking seroquel XR 400mg, and immediately said "xxx, you made a mistake ordering the pt's home meds"- I told her that I didn't admit that pt, then she double-checked and saw that it was another resident.
The reason I'm giving that example is to show that I feel I already have this subconscious bias towards me from the attending (after making a few mistakes, I feel it's her default mindset to see a mistake and assume it's me- which I feel naturally would be most others as well- but when I am being judged off this subconscious bias, this is when the problems are arising)
To go on on that example, the attending changed the ordered, but accidentally made the seroquel 400mg qhs BID. I saw it and double-checked with her if she meant to increase the dose, and of course- she told me to keep it at 400 qhs, and said that she made an accidental error. That's a SERIOUS med error- none of mine were that serious TBH. (I was really tempted to give this example of my attending to the DIO, but refrained- thought it might come across as unprofessional.)


Any update of people's view of the situation now??

(Overall, I am trying to present things in as neutral of a fashion as I can, but of course- I am sure some of my statements/presentation might have bit of a bias towards myself. If anyone needs any clarification or further info, please ask and I will gladly tell).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yes, it is absolutely correct that there is leeway in how to address call.

Accredited programs have to abide by the requirements from the governing accrediting boards for the specialty, ACGME, state medical board, Federal & state law, rules set forth by Medicare if they receive those dollars.

It would up to the board overseeing the specialty if 24 hour call is considered an essential part of the educational experience. Typically the issue isn't, "hey, can you work 24 hours straight??" as much as an argument that covering a service at night presents challenges that are instrumental to a resident's medical education and would not be able to be gained at other times. That is easy to address by simply having the resident do night shifts. As far as working them into their schedule, there are ways to do this.

This can mean more call for other residents and say less or none for the affected resident. This is not considered discrimination to the other residents as long as it is not done arbitrarily and reasonable attempt to equalize the schedule is made, all else permitting.

The other point raised typically has to do with continuity of care. Again, there are rules regarding this, and there would be ways to address this. This would also vary by specialty. Again, if it is not required by the board that one do 24 hour call for education, than the length of shift can be adjusted.

The other issue with this as a "reasonable accommodation" is that the program will likely argue that it is too disruptive to the schedules or there simply aren't enough bodies or people to supervise in such a scenario.

This may be true in some programs. It is certainly the argument of programs that don't want to do it. Other programs can, and have, made this accommodation.

It doesn't matter if call was in the contract. If the condition is covered under ADA, the change will not substantially affect the resident's education per accrediting boards, and the legal system determines that the program has the ability to accommodate the change in terms of coverage and what else needs to be done to educate the resident (additional night shifts etc), then shortening or eliminating 24 call for medical reasons would not be grounds to terminate the resident.

TLDR:
Aside from what an accrediting board would say,
being able to do 24 call is NOT typically required to complete a residency
There are programs that require call that have made the accommodation for medical reasons to eliminate 24 hour call for a particular resident

Interesting. I only know the rules as they apply to interview questions. For example, you can't ask about specific disability or diagnoses, but you can inquire about it generally (e.g. "This program has a rigorous call schedule, and you'll need to be on your feet with limited sleep for certain rotations. Is there anything that would impact your ability to do that?"). I guess once you're in the door, the program is required to provide accommodations, but not before?

As for OP, the second you start publishing identifying information on the internet, you're heading down a slippery slope. Sorry you're going through this... anytime this stuff happens it impacts the whole residency, but obviously you foremost. That being said, I've never seen an online crusade work out well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Update: Met with DIO yesterday.

In short- was useless.

Started off saying he is there to help residents, etc. Was professional and listened to my whole story. Then told me he was aware of me failing and thought it was appropriate from the comments given by the attending. When I stated that I didn't agree with all the comments she made, he stated she is only one who can judge me and she must have given her honest opinion- stated that I should focus on myself and move on, etc.

Overall, REPEATEDLY kept saying "I am sure your medical illness/announcing your decision to apply to other programs" didn't have ANYTHING to do with your evaluation. Kept saying he was very "CONFIDENT" of that and that he could assure me that it had no impact on my eval.

But, how can be so "sure" or "confident" when he wasn't there or didn't know? (know what I mean guys...?). Just really seemed to be sticking up for program throughout.

Their job is literally to keep the status quo. It's to usher you out as quietly as possible with appropriate documentation to discourage a lawsuit or any public outcry. You mean less than nothing to your program or the university. They care substantially more about *insert any job here* than you.

I'm not trying to be mean in any way, just want to prepare your cognition so that you can approach this as best you can. I really feel for your story, having seen how residency can impact certain illness first-hand in my co-residents. The power differential in medicine is enormous and some will certainly seek to exploit that. I'd focus efforts on finding a new program and being the best resident you can be despite your illness when you get there. It will require more effort and work, maybe than anything you have ever done, but it will be worth it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
If call is part of the deal you should have to take call
I disagree. We are not aware of his medical condition and whether if he is in any capacity to take the call. This could potentially lead to bad outcome for both him and the patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I think that one question is about if the OP has what it takes to meet educational milestones, the other question is if the OP has the ability to complete the tasks for which he or she was hired. The theory is that we are educational institutions that value education above all service needs, but all programs have service needs. Programs do vary in how dependent they are on residents for services. I would argue that the programs with almost no resident dependence are probably not very good and fairly rare. There is a happy middle of course.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I disagree. We are not aware of his medical condition and whether if he is in any capacity to take the call. This could potentially lead to bad outcome for both him and the patients.
Then resign. If the job is X and you can't X, you leave
 
Interesting. I only know the rules as they apply to interview questions. For example, you can't ask about specific disability or diagnoses, but you can inquire about it generally (e.g. "This program has a rigorous call schedule, and you'll need to be on your feet with limited sleep for certain rotations. Is there anything that would impact your ability to do that?"). I guess once you're in the door, the program is required to provide accommodations, but not before?

As for OP, the second you start publishing identifying information on the internet, you're heading down a slippery slope. Sorry you're going through this... anytime this stuff happens it impacts the whole residency, but obviously you foremost. That being said, I've never seen an online crusade work out well.

It's weird. You get most of what I'm about to describe, but it answers what I know of the process and how to navigate.
People, feel free to skip to the bolded part and read thereafter I guess, unless you're unfamiliar with ADA stuff from interview to termination.

Of course they can ask if you think you can meet the technical requirements and essential functions, and there's always a piece of paper somewhere if they want to get more specific, some have you sign it that day at your interview! You can always ask to see them if they are not provided.

You can always say, "yes I can meet the technical requirements and perform the essential functions of the position," if THAT IS TRUE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, GOOD FAITH, ALL THAT JAZZ. You don't have to specify however, if it's with or without accommodations. Goes in line with how you don't have to reveal any health information - you also don't have to reveal any disabilities or accommodations you might need, PRIOR TO A JOB OFFER. The interviews of the Match are not considered job offers, legally.

If you had a more "obvious" disability, for example you came in with a wheelchair, technically they can't ask you for what medical condition it is for. They can ask you how it would affect your ability to run to codes, etc etc, and if it would, what accommodations you might need.

So the focus has to be transactional - this is just about essential functions, technical requirements, and can you do them with or without accommodation.
That can take place without going into health conditions - which *they* can't legally bring up, unless YOU do first. Even then, they must tread a certain way.

Now, yes, these rules are always broken.

Why don't programs question people more closely during the Match?
To ask, is to open themselves up to allegations of discrimination.
Why do so if the applicant seems otherwise "normal" by interview and everything on paper?
(Your health stuff rarely makes it into any of your app stuff, like LORs, Dean's Letter, etc.
The people generating that stuff usually don't make mention, again, problems!)

Generally, you can take the "gamble" of ranking someone you haven't "examined" more closely for a lot of reasons. For one, this person is graduating medical school and you already thought fit to give then an interview. If they have a health condition, so far you can't tell, and they can hack it.

(I just told you how the "exam" can be done. It is not likely to give you any useful info. Asking can reflect badly on you or be downright illegal.
If you do get health or disability related info, this helps you make a hiring decision how?
Hint: it is generally illegal for it to, so why are we going through this?
On the off chance the candidate admits/looks like they can't do a technical requirement/essential job function, the only way you can legally use it?
AND you get enough info to PROVE this point to where this doesn't look bad in court when you don't hire them or fire them later?
You need hospital legal risk management to address it even if it's a bad case. Besides them being on retainer or salaried so cost aside, anyone that invokes them gets a big frownie face from the hospital.)

Later, I'll give you even more reason why being in the dark about an hiree's health is better for a program re: firing & lawsuits.

It should be obvious why candidates don't offer this sort of info, and might make it their business to know all of the above: because being discriminated against for having a medical condition DOES happen, and is almost impossible to prove.

Some will argue that if you think the disability is going to be more than a big deal or impossible to hide on the interview trail, that you might want to come clean. To make sure the program will be supportive. This is one approach.

Advice a medical school Dean once gave someone? It's another approach.
"Don't mention it. You don't legally have to, even though it's illegal for them to discriminate for this, and you clearly are coping since you're graduating, but some programs will still discriminate. Just wait until you start, and then they will have to accommodate."

This sounds like "tricking" the employer - in a way, I guess it is. Why do we have to "trick" anyone to be sure that people with disabilities do not have their disability a factor in getting a job offer? The only time it should matter is NOT THE JOB OFFER - get it? You get a chance at the job. The assumption is that you, in taking the job, have a good faith belief that you can do the technical requirements/essential functions. That's supposed to be true of anyone.

After the Match, when I had my contract, it provided the technical requirements/essential functions and asked if I could complete them. There was also an HR employee health questionnaire that asked about disabilities and accommodations. As I understand it, this is how it is for all residents. THAT is the HIRING PROCESS.

That is when rubber would meet road. So it must be after a job offer is made that the topic comes up officially.

Now, if I can't do the job with or without reasonable accommodation, and it can be shown that there's no way I could have signed that document in good faith - I'm toast, I'm out the door.
If I don't disclose disabilities on that form - I can't use them as grounds later for how they were used against me in discrimination.

Say I disclose on the form, and I don't get accommodations, because I don't need them at this time. Then, I start to do ****ty at work. I think it's because of my disability, but I never tell anyone. Now I am fired. Now I allege discrimination. Not going to stick unless I can prove they were aware if it.

So why don't programs do more to figure this out?
It's better for them in the interview and hiring process if this never comes up officially. Not only can they not be slapped with it later, but anything that ever happens before they can be said to know of your disability - cannot be held to be discrimination. They have to know about it for you to prove they held it against you unfairly.


Of course, by both the program and you willfully dodging talking about accommodations at the interview, you both avoid discrimination being a factor in the hiring process. Whew, relief! But, you both are not sure how the rubber will meet the road of your job and any accommodations. That's sort of the trade off.

If they hire you without knowing, find out at the start of employment or later, then it can actually be less trouble all around for them, except they were the "unlucky" program that got the resident that was secretly disabled AND unable to perform AND be accommodated, AND they wanted/needed to terminate.

I'm not sure this bites most programs enough for them to change how they tread on interviews, when they interview 10 for 1 rank position, out of a lot of app that went in the trash. If it does, I imagine they figure out a way to ask what they got to ask.

Medicine is often about looking your best and hoping for the best. Programs and trainees are doing this dance from interview day to termination.
 
Then resign. If the job is X and you can't X, you leave

People do voluntarily resign for health reasons. They don't have to do it because you have an outraged sense of fairness about call, expect that all medical issues that impact someone's work to be able to be resolved with a finite LOA, or that someone must resign because they can no longer perform an essential job function without reasonable accommodation for a condition covered by the law, ADA.

Whether you like it or not, there are laws. One of them is the ADA. Employees can choose to disclose to employers if they have COVERED conditions, and they ask for accommodations. The employer, LEGALLY, MUST either provide the accommodations, or if they don't, they must claim it is because is it UNREASONABLE. The ADA includes definitions and examples of unreasonable accommodations.

Where that is not illustrative, if an employee disagrees with an employer about how reasonable the accommodations are, this can be brought to court, and the COURT decides.

There, the employer must prove why it is an undue burden to provide the accommodations.

I can already tell you that the concept of not taking call at a program for health reasons as an accommodation, has already passed muster in court.
That being the case, an individual program must make the case that this particular accommodation is not reasonable for them.
How easy or how difficult this is, or how far either party takes it to court, I cannot say.

You can have your opinions. They are discriminatory and not in compliance with law.
I hope for the sake of YOUR own job, one of the essential functions of which I am sure includes compliance with ADA, that you don't express them at work, or YOU could be the one asked to resign. Food for thought.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Then resign. If the job is X and you can't X, you leave
This individual is a PGY-1 who worked his/her butt off to get this far. It's simply not that easy to call it quits over an unforseen circumstance. We have regulations in the health system to prevent discrimination, rightly so, especially in situations like this. Empathy is important in medicine, especially those who hold the highest responsibilities.

In addition, OP did not disclose sufficient information to make such a recommendation. It could be something minor or (hopefully not) a big deterrence factor affecting work efficiency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
People do voluntarily resign for health reasons. They don't have to do it because you have an outraged sense of fairness about call, expect that all medical issues that impact someone's work to be able to be resolved with a finite LOA, or that someone must resign because they can no longer perform an essential job function without reasonable accommodation for a condition covered by the law, ADA.

Whether you like it or not, there are laws. One of them is the ADA. Employees can choose to disclose to employers if they have COVERED conditions, and they ask for accommodations. The employer, LEGALLY, MUST either provide the accommodations, or if they don't, they must claim it is because is it UNREASONABLE. The ADA includes definitions and examples of unreasonable accommodations.

Where that is not illustrative, if an employee disagrees with an employer about how reasonable the accommodations are, this can be brought to court, and the COURT decides.

There, the employer must prove why it is an undue burden to provide the accommodations.

I can already tell you that the concept of not taking call at a program for health reasons as an accommodation, has already passed muster in court.
That being the case, an individual program must make the case that this particular accommodation is not reasonable for them.
How easy or how difficult this is, or how far either party takes it to court, I cannot say.

You can have your opinions. They are discriminatory and not in compliance with law.
I hope for the sake of YOUR own job, one of the essential functions of which I am sure includes compliance with ADA, that you don't express them at work, or YOU could be the one asked to resign. Food for thought.
The ADA is a flawed law. I'm aware of how to comply with it.
 
So I am currently in my PGY-I year, and a new health concern recently arose, based off which my doctor recommended me to try to avoid 24-hr calls. To be honest as well as proactive in expressing my concern so possible accommodations could potentially be made before the program made its call schedule for the following year, I went and discussed the same with my PD.

Since then, I am suspecting if there are background politics going on. I had my mid-way eval a few weeks after I spoke with my PD- and I received a fail on ALL SIX core competencies (but never received any disciplinary action or warning or discussion with PD or any attending of any 'concerns' with my performance in the previous 6 months). Then a few days ago, my program told me that I received a 'fail' for my inpatient psych rotation in February (which I was equally shocked about)- some of the mistakes they pointed out were minuscule, while several other negative things they said weren't really substantiated. I received a lower rating and a worse overall comments for this past month (4th month of inpatient psych this year) than my first month of residency, which I simply find ridiculous and implausible.

I am not sure what's going on with my program behind-the-scenes, but I feel they are trying to make me look a poor applicant academically so maybe they can fire me or not re-offer me a contract (since it's illegal to do that for a medical condition right??)

What rights do I have as a resident? Can I contest the fail for this past month as I believe it's highly unjustified? How do I go about such a situation??

Would appreciate any advice someone would have or any insight if anyone has been through something similar. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss more specifics regarding my health, program, or the exact situation.

Thanks.



Soooo what do you have?
Lyme disease? Chronic fatigue?
 
My medical illness is directly stated as a disability by the ADA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This sort of discrimination should not be happening in Psychiatry. Period.

While there are always two sides to a story, program directors need to realize that if there is ANY question about how you treat your residents, MS4s will find out and apply/rank accordingly.

For instance, most MS4s going into psychiatry know about GW's recent debacle: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...nned-at-george-washington-university.1217019/
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I've dealt with this more than once. I did it about right if I do say so. In every case, the person's classmates hated him/her and accused me of being too soft, and the person themselves accused me of not doing enough. That was the happy medium every time. Let's face it, if your program is moving this hard and fast to build a case against you, no matter what legal council you get or no matter how much out of the program support you have, you will not be graduating from this program most likely. Your program may be the definition of evil and unfair, but if this is true, you will be moving on anyway. You need to have a conversation with your dean. I have seen deans work out transfers to good places when motivated to do so.

I recommend the OP get an employment attorney, STAT, and ignore all posters on SDN (moi included!). No one here can offer legal advice. Good luck to you.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
This sort of discrimination should not be happening in Psychiatry. Period.

While there are always two sides to a story, program directors need to realize that if there is ANY question about how you treat your residents, MS4s will find out and apply/rank accordingly.

For instance, most MS4s going into psychiatry know about GW's recent debacle: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/th...nned-at-george-washington-university.1217019/

I hope NO ONE ranked GW this year, or any other future year.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Their job is literally to keep the status quo. It's to usher you out as quietly as possible with appropriate documentation to discourage a lawsuit or any public outcry. You mean less than nothing to your program or the university. They care substantially more about *insert any job here* than you.

I'm not trying to be mean in any way, just want to prepare your cognition so that you can approach this as best you can. I really feel for your story, having seen how residency can impact certain illness first-hand in my co-residents. The power differential in medicine is enormous and some will certainly seek to exploit that. I'd focus efforts on finding a new program and being the best resident you can be despite your illness when you get there. It will require more effort and work, maybe than anything you have ever done, but it will be worth it.

But there are laws in this country. Like, actual laws that are enforced by this thing that's called the "court," and they prohibit discrimination.
 
Last edited:
The theory is that we are educational institutions that value education above all service needs, but all programs have service needs. Programs do vary in how dependent they are on residents for services.

So you're admitting that labor is a part of the reason that low-paid resident services are utilized. On the same week the ACGME came out with an announcement that first year call is now increased to 24 hours again. Or 28, or whatever.
 
Last edited:
What I am saying is that you have to give work and clinical responsibility to trainees to train them. The pendulum swings around a bit on this, but it will always be true. If one group of residents do X amount of work and another does Y, the training isn't the same. We can talk about where X and Y are optimized.
 
Thank you everyone for your insight and recommendations. Truly appreciated.

First, a quick summary before updating with the current scenario: I passed my first 5 months of intern year (and never had any disciplinary action taken, or any concerns expressed about performance during this time), but I received a fail for all 6 core competencies during my midway-evaluation in January. I did discuss in early January with my program about possible making an adjustment to my schedule as I had a medical contraindication about doing 24-hr calls; when program expressed much hesitance about this, I requested a Letter of Good Standing to apply to other program to "explore options", while still attempting to discuss possible schedule amends as I stated I strongly prefer to stay at my current program.
Next, although my performance was definitely not perfect, I worked harder and read more in February (4th month of IP psych) than previous months, and did feel more confident and that I was doing better overall, but I received a fail for the month- extending my intern year by an extra month.

Now, my thought process is if I am accepted into another program for PGY-II year (have had 2 IV's so far), I now have a fail for one month of my intern year (which I didn't have while interviewing), and I will be finishing it a month later, which will delay my starting date at another program. How should I go about this in the event if I am accepted or a program directly asks me about when I would be able to start??
(Would being able to start on July 1st date with new program, going with just 10 or 11 months of intern-year credit, be an option?? [and would this sort of scenario be okay with my current program??]).

Any views appreciated, and feel free to PM if you have specific questions about the scenario or would prefer to give thoughts in that way. Thank you!
 
Thank you everyone for your insight and recommendations. Truly appreciated.

First, a quick summary before updating with the current scenario: I passed my first 5 months of intern year (and never had any disciplinary action taken, or any concerns expressed about performance during this time), but I received a fail for all 6 core competencies during my midway-evaluation in January. I did discuss in early January with my program about possible making an adjustment to my schedule as I had a medical contraindication about doing 24-hr calls; when program expressed much hesitance about this, I requested a Letter of Good Standing to apply to other program to "explore options", while still attempting to discuss possible schedule amends as I stated I strongly prefer to stay at my current program.
Next, although my performance was definitely not perfect, I worked harder and read more in February (4th month of IP psych) than previous months, and did feel more confident and that I was doing better overall, but I received a fail for the month- extending my intern year by an extra month.

Now, my thought process is if I am accepted into another program for PGY-II year (have had 2 IV's so far), I now have a fail for one month of my intern year (which I didn't have while interviewing), and I will be finishing it a month later, which will delay my starting date at another program. How should I go about this in the event if I am accepted or a program directly asks me about when I would be able to start??
(Would being able to start on July 1st date with new program, going with just 10 or 11 months of intern-year credit, be an option?? [and would this sort of scenario be okay with my current program??]).

Any views appreciated, and feel free to PM if you have specific questions about the scenario or would prefer to give thoughts in that way. Thank you!


Not to be harsh, but when you were told you were doing poorly, or were being discriminated against, what I say applies whether or not you're being treated fairly:

Expressing that you were looking to jump ship????
That is the best way to totally piss off a program and get them to dick you over hard, which they may be doing.
You don't get to "explore your options" like in some other jobs.
You're the one who needs training or your career could be forfeit.
As you know, you needed to be in good standing to be looked at elsewhere.
Is it any surprise that now things are worse with your program?

If this program doesn't sign off that you successfully complete your intern year, YOU CANNOT be started as a PGY2 elsewhere. Period. That's not up to a PD, that's a board issue.

I *think* you can transfer as a PGY1 to another program, and get credit for rotations that you successfully passed, but that will be up to the old and the new PD, and it's not unusual to have to make up some months anyway. In that case, it will be up to the new PD when you have enough rotations between your old and new program to be promoted to PGY2.

Also, it is possible to do an entire year of rotations and still fail the entire year. Yes, yes, this can happen.

You will have to discuss this with anywhere you try to go. How this is going to go is entirely dependent on your current program, and the one that might take you.

I'm not sure you looked at transferring to another program in the same specialty when you got into hot water. If you get into hot water, are considered to do poorly, and you think the program wants you gone, you might make a case that you would be better off elsewhere in something different.

But when your current program is hating on you, thinking that you're going to ditch and thrive elsewhere? Why would they help you? They're not all of a sudden going to say, he's doing a good job, let's pass him so he can go elsewhere. They either truly believe your performance is deficient, in which case they can't really in good conscience help you like this, or they are discriminating against you, which maybe one reaction would be to transfer you to go rid of you instead of gearing up to terminate you, still, it's hard for them to build the case to terminate AND help you transfer. They either have to say you suck or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Not to be harsh, but when you were told you were doing poorly, or were being discriminated against, what I say applies whether or not you're being treated fairly:

Expressing that you were looking to jump ship????
That is the best way to totally piss off a program and get them to dick you over hard, which they may be doing.
You don't get to "explore your options" like in some other jobs.
You're the one who needs training or your career could be forfeit.
As you know, you needed to be in good standing to be looked at elsewhere.
Is it any surprise that now things are worse with your program?

If this program doesn't sign off that you successfully complete your intern year, YOU CANNOT be started as a PGY2 elsewhere. Period. That's not up to a PD, that's a board issue.

I *think* you can transfer as a PGY1 to another program, and get credit for rotations that you successfully passed, but that will be up to the old and the new PD, and it's not unusual to have to make up some months anyway. In that case, it will be up to the new PD when you have enough rotations between your old and new program to be promoted to PGY2.

Also, it is possible to do an entire year of rotations and still fail the entire year. Yes, yes, this can happen.

You will have to discuss this with anywhere you try to go. How this is going to go is entirely dependent on your current program, and the one that might take you.

I'm not sure you looked at transferring to another program in the same specialty when you got into hot water. If you get into hot water, are considered to do poorly, and you think the program wants you gone, you might make a case that you would be better off elsewhere in something different.

But when your current program is hating on you, thinking that you're going to ditch and thrive elsewhere? Why would they help you? They're not all of a sudden going to say, he's doing a good job, let's pass him so he can go elsewhere. They either truly believe your performance is deficient, in which case they can't really in good conscience help you like this, or they are discriminating against you, which maybe one reaction would be to transfer you to go rid of you instead of gearing up to terminate you, still, it's hard for them to build the case to terminate AND help you transfer. They either have to say you suck or not.

Thanks Crayola, appreciate your several, detailed responses in this post.

Sorry if it was unclear, but I didn't express an interest to leave after getting a bad mid-way eval. I got the bad mid-way eval (and later being failed for a month) AFTER expressing my thoughts of wanting to leave. Therefore, I was in good standing when I applied to other programs (and when I interviewed at the ones I did so far) and didn't get into hot water until after requesting a letter of good standing to apply to other programs.
It's understandable for a program to be annoyed/mad at anyone who expresses an interest in transferring. But if the program truly wants you gone (in my case, b/c maybe they can't accommodate to my medical illness), I thought transferring would be the best option for both of us.

Now I am at risk for being terminated if I get put on probation after committee meeting next month. But until I officially get accepted into a program, it would be in their best interests to begin the process to terminate me right??
 
Kind of a sticky situation to ask for accommodation due to a disability, yet still be able to say that the disability will not impair your ability to fully conduct the duties required. Not sure if it was one, but mental health disabilities can be even more problematic due to both the intangibility and the unpredictability of these disorders in addition to the stigma and perception of mental weakness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Are you telling the other programs you can't work 24? (Not saying you are legally required to, just trying to predict of you'll immediately face a repeat of this issue at the nexr place, if you get a next place)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Off topic, but If residents were considered employees rather than trainees, some of these program issues could easily be solved by cutting salary/hours and letting those that can't work the extended shifts go "part time" as well as paying those willing to work them "overtime." Co-residents wouldn't complain nearly as much about extra call if they were getting paid time-and-a-half for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I'm fine with taking a leave of absence if you can't perform the required tasks. It's not ok to just bow out of call.

You do more harm in posting about crap you don't understand than you would if you just didn't say anything at all. Most people learned this in elementary school. Please catch up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top