Is this also referring to the hypothetical individual whose name rhymes with BrightJock?
What undergraduate schools do Medical schools consider Top Tier?
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Is this also referring to the hypothetical individual whose name rhymes with BrightJock?
Not at all. Every year, at every UG, people do well and people do not so well. More people do well at Penn than Penn State, and at Yale than New Haven, because the students, on average, are better, not because Orgo or Biochem at Penn teaches to the MCAT better than UIC, because it doesn't. Anyone who has taken the test knows performance is directly related to how you prepare specifically for the test, not how good or bad your prereqs were, whether you took them at an Ivy or a CC, or whether you took them last year or 5 years ago. I'm n=1. My individual experience is irrelevant.
Of course!!!
That's to try to get good professors (and hopefully good grades!), but you have to take everything with a huge grain of salt, since some really good teachers get bad ratings from slackers, and some terrible teachers get great ratings because they are easy graders.
Either way, this has NOTHING to do with a school like Vandy being more or less rigorous in sciences than another school, or whether any class, whether the teacher was great or sucked, ultimately impacted a MCAT scores years later. MCAT score comes down to MCAT prep, and has nothing to do with the UG teaching experience. If I place out of Bio 1 and 2 due to AP credit, does anyone want to suggest the rigor of my HS AP bio class impacted my MCAT score???
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Yes, definitely more MIT students taking music courses at Berklee than Berklee students taking advanced math at MIT.
Of course!!!
That's to try to get good professors (and hopefully good grades!), but you have to take everything with a huge grain of salt, since some really good teachers get bad ratings from slackers, and some terrible teachers get great ratings because they are easy graders.
Either way, this has NOTHING to do with a school like Vandy being more or less rigorous in sciences than another school, or whether any class, whether the teacher was great or sucked, ultimately impacted a MCAT scores years later. MCAT score comes down to MCAT prep, and has nothing to do with the UG teaching experience. If I place out of Bio 1 and 2 due to AP credit, does anyone want to suggest the rigor of my HS AP bio class impacted my MCAT score???
Did you go to Stuyvesant HS and place on the US National Chemistry Olympiad team? Then, yes.
Even then, I'd say my score would be on account of my skills, not my HS science classes. Stuyvesant is a great example. It's a public school in NYC, one of the crappiest districts in the country. Like Harvard, MIT or any top school, does the school make the student, or do the students make the school?? Trust me, dopes do not enter Stuyvesant and exit as science olympians due to the excellent teaching provided by the randomly assigned NYC public school teachers teaching there. They are the best of the best going in, and leaving, and their brilliance leads to the school's reputation, not the other way around.
Vandy students do well on the MCAT because they are good students and good test takers, not because the science classes there are better or worse than anywhere else, or provide better preparation for the MCAT.
I know N > 1 US National Chemistry and Biology Olympiad team members who didn't attend Stuyvesant HS or any highly ranked HS. It all comes down your intelligence and study habits as per GPA and MCAT. As per admissions, again going to HYPSM adds some value.
Here is my ORM analogy.
A coal can't become a diamond because it is in a diamond shop (HYPSM). However a rough diamond will be polished and shined in diamond shop (HYPSM). A polished diamond will shine in diamond shop (HYPSM) as well as flee market (no-name UG), but flee market may not see the value of it. So rough diamond needs that polishing from teachers at every academic level until become a polished diamond.
That's fair, but I don't like the analogy. A lot of kids in a public magnet school like Stuyvesant are WAAAAAYYYY smarter than their public school teachers. They polish the teachers, not the other way around. Same thing with top students in a huge lecture class at Penn. HYPSM is highly valued as a screening device because it so damn hard to get in. All US research institutions have multiple opportunities to develop anyone properly motivated.
I'd argue small classes with full professors in public school honors colleges provide a far more enriching educational experience than large lectures in places like Harvard, with supplemental recitation sections led by grad students, but who actually cares about the educational experience????
I'd argue small classes with full professors in public school honors colleges provide a far more enriching educational experience than large lectures in places like Harvard, with supplemental recitation sections led by grad students, but who actually cares about the educational experience????
You're more likely to get consistently good teachers at a small, good liberal arts college. The problem is that these typically are found in small out of the way towns/rural areas and they don't measure up to research universities in large cities either in terms of research opportunities, opportunities to work/volunteer in the community and clinical opportunities.
Definitely!! My point was more broadly, simply that while HYPSM and other T20 UG confer prestige due to the admissions process, the cold reality is that the quality of teaching, particularly in the large, intro, prereq type classes actually leaves a lot to be desired, while honors classes in honors colleges at large public universities actually provide a much more concierge like experience. But nobody cares about this, because, for med schools that value such things, it's all about the seal of approval of gaining admission to a highly selective school, not the quality of the education you receive.
Does any school offer premed classes in honors college? Large public schools tends to have larger class sizes than T20 privates and because of getting As becomes more difficult. My son has taken several honors classes but they are all in liberal arts not BPCM.
well again magnet schools are not standard across country, few smart kids don't become a norm, rather exceptions. I firmly believe teachers play a role as big as parents to shape kids, until become a polished diamond.
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Of course teachers do play significant roles in shaping students. @KnicksDoc contention is most teachers at magnet schools are not any better than other public school teachers. I agree with that. My son also went to a selective public school and teaching was not much better. However he had to work hard to get good grades and compete for academic teams. That work ethic served him well in the UG. I have also seen burn out among top magnet schools like Stuyvesant. Some of the poor teachers could be good coaches (HS) or research mentors (universities).
Magnet schools provide curriculum that otherwise doesn't exist at all for rest of public schools. Hence those teachers are unique.
Ofc, students have to work hard, being in HYPSM or any schools, in order to succeed, efforts are always needed, but that doesn't diminish the role/value of teachers/professors.
Do they really? Most have AP or IB classes, unless they have specific occupation focused (like tech or healthcare).
Absolutely!!! In the honors colleges, this is the carrot they offer. Remember, the upper level courses are small everywhere. Your son is taking "honors" classes in a school where everyone is already honors. Those classes are open to everyone, correct?
The large public schools are HUGE, even when compared to a place like Penn. The honors colleges are tiny subsets of the total enrollment. The honors classes, even in subjects like chem and orgo, are small, but, importantly, are only available to students in the honors college. This is how they try to compete with the Ivies and Vandys of the world. It's still not nearly as prestigious, but it is, in many ways, a better UG educational experience.
EXACTLY!!!!!! Curricula is set by the state, not the school.
Schools like Stuyvesant have extraordinary students, so they have a wide variety of advanced classes, but this is dictated by the achievement level of the students. I don't know what happens in small suburban districts, or in private schools, but, in large urban districts, everything is controlled by public teacher unions.
Assignment to a school is determined by teacher preference and seniority. not by any objective measurement of who is a good or bad teacher. Entrance to Stuyvesant and similar schools is strictly by exam. The diamond is already polished. Not to put down anyone who chooses to become a public school teacher, but, in many cases, the 13 and 14 year olds entering Stuyvesant are already more accomplished than many of their NYC public school teachers.
I haven't read the whole thread but the gist of my understanding is
Adcoms are focused on admitting students who fit their mission and will likely succeed. The reason "name brand" schools give their alumni a slight edge in the game is because the rigor of the UG is known, the quality of premeds they produce is known, and maybe the prestige perception. It's simply safer than admitting students from lesser-known universities. That said, it's only a minor part of the admissions process.
My friend from a 200+ ranked school applied with a 3.9-something GPA and 518 MCAT, got interviewed at Wayne State/Albert Einstein/UCLA David Geffen and a lot more I can't recall. He's at one of them now
(attended this UG due to full ride)
However as a previous poster noted, as you move further up in medical school rankings, the importance of UG prestige gradually climbs.
Adcoms are focused on admitting students who fit their mission and will likely succeed. The reason "name brand" schools give their alumni a slight edge in the game is because the rigor of the UG is known, the quality of premeds they produce is known, and maybe the prestige perception. It's simply safer than admitting students from lesser-known universities. That said, it's only a minor part of the admissions process.
My friend from a 200+ ranked school applied with a 3.9-something GPA and 518 MCAT, got interviewed at Wayne State/Albert Einstein/UCLA David Geffen and a lot more I can't recall. He's at one of them now
(attended this UG due to full ride)
However as a previous poster noted, as you move further up in medical school rankings, the importance of UG prestige gradually climbs.
Just to add background Brown offers a BA/MD program called Program in Liberal Medical Education (PLME) to around 60 students. Students apply to the program as high school seniors, you can't apply to the program after being admitted.
I don't have time to go back through all the comments, but tier of undergraduate school is a very subjective measure. The overall ranking and ordering isn't subjective but where you draw that line is. There's no single threshold where schools on one side are "top" and schools on the other are not. That's why you get the various posters on here and elsewhere referring to their "top 20", "top 30", or "top 50" school. At some point, it doesn't matter anymore but school tier is a spectrum.
Those hippies!
Anecdotally, I went to another school in Annapolis and I felt like it played major ball for me application-wise. Non-anecdotally, I believe the average MD matriculant from any of the 3 big ones (even the chair fighters) got in with an MCAT something like 3-4 points lower than the overall average MD matriculant MCAT. So it at least seems like there are some places you can get a boost and not have to pay big (in $$ at least).
Also, it blows my mind that some schools have average GPAs in the mid-high 3.X, ours was a 2.8!
Okay, but you do realize your boost isn't tied to the prestige of your school, but rather, the value placed on your service, don't you? People with similar service who didn't attend an academy and were not officers get the same boost!
You are partly right--veteran status is in and of itself a boost. But, the vast majority of applicants from service academies are those actually applying directly out of college years, zero service in other words. Do those folks get lumped in anyways? Possibly in some instances, but across the board no--the numbers are much different.
I didn't realize that, and that's a great question! Schools love service, and academy students have made the commitment, even though they haven't served yet. I seriously doubt, however, service academies get the same prestige boost the Ivies get, since, as you've pointed out, it's a different kind of prestige, not predicated as much by academics. Personally, I think it's the same military boost, not an academic one, since the metrics used to be admitted to a service academy are quite different from those used for the Ivies.
IMO the whole discussion is interesting but without hard data for comparison I don’t see much value. With data it would be an easy answer—how does each school’s average MCAT (or mcat/gpa hybrid) for MD matriculants compare to the national average overall, the average for TierX, TierY, etc. I would predict a clear but limited relationship where the closer to the top the UG falls translates to a lower average required score, especially once other factors are controlled for, and an increasingly steeper trend line as you narrow the med school group down to only the top 40/30/20/10.
But until then, anecdotes are mostly all there is to go on. One anecdotal example—the current student rosters I saw showing UG schools looked MUCH different at Brown med than at some other similarly ranked schools public schools.
Sure. But, I think we should be able to agree that strong leadership skills are loved by both med schools and service academies, and that med schools love the commitment to service embodied by anyone applying to and then being admitted to a service academy.
Then, as you pointed out, your classmates not only have lower GPAs, but also lower MCATs than the median. Please don't take offense, but I really don't think with your average 2.8 GPA and your below matriculant average MCAT scores, that med schools love service academy students because they are so much smarter than the average matriculant. Does it matter?
Yes, service academies receive a boost. Their students are among the elite in the country, not because of academics, but because of leadership and service. Also, service academies produce relatively few premeds, so the competition for you is significantly less than for anyone coming from one of the premed factories. I would really put you on your own tier rather than with Harvard and Stanford, but, whatever, you end up in the same place.
Sure. But, I think we should be able to agree that strong leadership skills are loved by both med schools and service academies, and that med schools love the commitment to service embodied by anyone applying to and then being admitted to a service academy.
Then, as you pointed out, your classmates not only have lower GPAs, but also lower MCATs than the median. Please don't take offense, but I really don't think with your average 2.8 GPA and your below matriculant average MCAT scores, that med schools love service academy students because they are so much smarter than the average matriculant. Does it matter?
Yes, service academies receive a boost. Their students are among the elite in the country, not because of academics, but because of leadership and service. Also, service academies produce relatively few premeds, so the competition for you is significantly less than for anyone coming from one of the premed factories. I would really put you on your own tier rather than with Harvard and Stanford, but, whatever, you end up in the same place.
Uhh, what lol? How was that in any way a response to the post you replied to?
Top tier schools. That usually means HYPSM, not the service academies. You chimed in with Annapolis and the 3 biggies and how much lower their average GPA and MCATs are.
I'm opining that we don't usually think of service academies as top tier, because, academically, they aren't, but there is something else very special and valuable about their students that is prized by med schools that would account for their success, i.e., leadership and service. Now if you want to tell me how intellectually superior their graduates are, I'll ask why their average GPA is B- and their MCATs are 3-4 points below average. If your point was simply that there are schools that are free that provide a boost, yes, you are correct, but that has nothing to do with this thread.
Lol again--how does that respond to the post you replied to, it was about an entirely different topic...
I have no idea how this became some sort of competition, but I think you are rather confused about the average GPA (that is where they set it, it has no value in comparison to other schools lol), and the MCAT (the lower the average is for matriculants out of X place=lower bar from entry=the easier it was to get in from that place which is good... I don't even get what your interpretation there was lol). SAs take an equal spread of people from all across the country, depending on which one--some areas the acceptance rate is about 0.1% and other areas it is close to 100%, of course on average they aren't gonna claim "academically top tier", whatever that means lol. I am a bigger believer in outcome competition anyways-- starting salary, mid-career salary, lifetime earnings are top 3 things that anyone should care about, then law/business/med school bar to entry height, fortune500 bar to entry height next--that's where you always want to excel. Most folks would likely be surprised at some of the schools that show up on that list. Colorado school of mines is laughing their #88 USNWR ranking all the way to the bank lol.
Again though, the post you replied to was about how there isn't data to draw many hard conclusions, and a prediction that if there was data it would show a somewhat linear relationship between higher up UG schools equating to lower average MCAT/GPA hybrids and lower end UGs equating to higher average MCAT/GPA hybrids for md matriculants. Sometimes I am not sure if people read stuff before they click reply. I am always amazed at how high strung some of the people on this site are...
Relax.Big name schools play more ball than small name schools, who knows how much, and more importantly who cares at the end of the day. That's really all that matters.
Yeah, it's all good. Maybe I misunderstood your post. Service academies definitely get a boost, and rightfully so. Again, and I think we agree, it has nothing to do with rankings and everything to do with the students possessing some very unique qualities that the med schools value.Lol again--how does that respond to the post you replied to, it was about an entirely different topic...
I have no idea how this became some sort of competition, but I think you are rather confused about the average GPA (that is where they set it, it has no value in comparison to other schools lol), and the MCAT (the lower the average is for matriculants out of X place=lower bar from entry=the easier it was to get in from that place which is good... I don't even get what your interpretation there was lol). SAs take an equal spread of people from all across the country, depending on which one--some areas the acceptance rate is about 0.1% and other areas it is close to 100%, of course on average they aren't gonna claim "academically top tier", whatever that means lol. I am a bigger believer in outcome competition anyways-- starting salary, mid-career salary, lifetime earnings are top 3 things that anyone should care about, then law/business/med school bar to entry height, fortune500 bar to entry height next--that's where you always want to excel. Most folks would likely be surprised at some of the schools that show up on that list. Colorado school of mines is laughing their #88 USNWR ranking all the way to the bank lol.
Again though, the post you replied to was about how there isn't data to draw many hard conclusions, and a prediction that if there was data it would show a somewhat linear relationship between higher up UG schools equating to lower average MCAT/GPA hybrids and lower end UGs equating to higher average MCAT/GPA hybrids for md matriculants. Sometimes I am not sure if people read stuff before they click reply. I am always amazed at how high strung some of the people on this site are...
Big name schools play more ball than small name schools, who knows how much, and more importantly who cares at the end of the day. That's really all that matters.
I firmly believe that most premed students benefit most by going to the easiest possible school and earning the highest possible GPA. If you are some prodigy that is set to publish in Nature during your first semester then sure, a fancy school will favor you but this isn’t a concern for the super majority of premed students.
The rewards of HYS don’t outweigh the higher competition and risk of a low GPA. I don’t necessarily agree that curriculum prepares you well or not well for the MCAT but I think that tougher schools that challenge their students may very well see better MCAT outcomes. N
The rewards of HYS don’t outweigh the higher competition and risk of a low GPA. I don’t necessarily agree that curriculum prepares you well or not well for the MCAT but I think that tougher schools that challenge their students may very well see better MCAT outcomes. N
I heard it's easy to get good GPA at H and S.
I think it might be reaching to generalize it this far. The amount of variance between well taught and badly taught some of the topics on the MCAT is absolutely insane. My fondest ugrad memory was absolutely flunking orgo 1 and looking at dismay at the quality and rigor of the tests those at different schools had. In many ways despite screwing my GPA it did prepare me for the trial of fire that has been MCAT prep and I am sure that had I not transferred to a higher school I would have had a much tougher time this summer studying with far lower results.
This seems like a gross generalization. Ask someone who attends one of these and they'll have a different opinion.
Just go to the best school you can, that is a good fit for you, and do the best you can.
Take advantage of opportunities for research, etc. and seek them out if they’re not spoon fed to you.
Then take the time to prepare for the MCAT and you’ll be fine.
If you don’t go to Harvard for medical school, you can still go there for residency, or fellowship, etc. Like me!
Take advantage of opportunities for research, etc. and seek them out if they’re not spoon fed to you.
Then take the time to prepare for the MCAT and you’ll be fine.
If you don’t go to Harvard for medical school, you can still go there for residency, or fellowship, etc. Like me!
It's universally known that those two schools have grade inflation. I know several students who attended.
Just go to the best school you can, that is a good fit for you, and do the best you can.
Take advantage of opportunities for research, etc. and seek them out if they’re not spoon fed to you.
Then take the time to prepare for the MCAT and you’ll be fine.
If you don’t go to Harvard for medical school, you can still go there for residency, or fellowship, etc. Like me!
Doesn't Harvard heavily favor its own when selecting candidates for residencies and fellowships?
I know someone who graduated from S with low GPA from STEM classes. Had to do SMP in high rank state school with 4.0 and reapply. He said The high rank state school was so much easier than S. Also did very well in med school, also said it was easier than S. He said he was getting enough sleep in med school while he was so sleep deprived during his undergrad at S.
They’re like old European royalty.
All the big dogs are pretty incestuous. When they do venture away, they lateral into another big dog school/program.
Is that secret code for Stanford, which isn’t known for grade inflation?
Stick with the Ivys for the Gentleman’s C.
I think students in Honors programs or equivalent at non selective schools, are at very little statistical disadvantage as mentioned above, with the why did you choose to attend there. Also, I bet that most non selective UG schools have very bidmodal acceptance stats when you compare their honors / elite admits versus their general admits trying to attend med school.There is no hypothetical individual.
When making UG decisions, common wisdom was that UG just didn't matter. All that mattered was grades, MCAT and ECs. Then I stumble onto this site, and discover two different versions of the same AAMC data table -- one from 2018 on showing UG selectivity is an academic metric of "lowest importance," (consistent with what everyone I spoke to, practicing physicians and professionals in premed advising offices at a variety of schools alike, advised) and the same table from 2013 showing that it is of "highest importance" at private schools and of "lowest importance" at public schools.
What to believe? The adcom who likes to link to the old table would have us (me) believe that the old table, even though it is old, is the real one, and the new table is nothing more than a surrender to political correctness. And then the highly respected @LizzyM says folks coming from non-top tier are playing with a stacked deck. And then others say the MCAT is very important -- is it important enough to overcome the stacked deck?? @efle implies "yes."
I am just looking to curate knowledge. Personally, I am good. I attend a very non-top tier school. It might be hard to believe
While it does not hold a candle to Harvard, Penn, Vandy, etc., my school places several students every year into top med schools. Awesome advising? Maybe. Applicants punching above their weight? Perhaps. Maybe it's just a product, as @Ehegi suggested, of a dedicated group of students taking advantage of opportunities at a rate atypical of students at similarly ranked UGs. It doesn't feel like the deck is stacked against us. While @LizzyM did say it is not impossible to break through, consistent results year after year suggests something else is going on besides people beating the stacked deck every year.
I guess my questions are geared more towards determining whether my school is typical or an exception to a rule. They are certainly not to help a "hypothetical KnightDoc" develop a school list.
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Definitely true, and even among the honors students, the stats are nowhere near as good as at an elite school. But my point is, at least at my school and at similar schools I was looking at, the top students do very well every year and are not meaningfully hampered by not going to an Ivy.
