What Will Happen to Undocumented Doctors?

[aalamruad]

They should never have been enrolled in US schools. When do you absolve the American taxpayer for what the dreamers have cost the US in terms of tax dollars and services that legal US citizens were denied (like medical school spot)? Or do you keep on punishing the taxpayer and enabling the illegals taking from them?

This kind of nationalism is disturbing; you want to protect the taxpayer at the expense of young children who are victims of "criminal" parents. I hope you see why that's disgusting. Especially when these DREAMers are very frequently working with medically underserved patient populations, including medically underserved US citizens.

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[OathTaker]

This kind of nationalism is disturbing; you want to protect the taxpayer at the expense of young children who are victims of criminal parents. I hope you see why that's disgusting. Especially when these DREAMers are very frequently working with medically underserved patient populations, including medically underserved US citizens.

Should the receiver of stolen goods - though he did not steal them... or nor know they were stolen be allowed to keep them if we know who the real owner is and that he/she is adversely affected by the loss of their property? Should we give them more stolen property because they have been accustomed to living a life furnished with stolen propterty? As usual, when the previous rationalizer of "justice" fails, we resort to "compassion" though I have already pointed out that "compassion" is needed very badly in Mexico where US trained physician could spread around lots of compassion through their trade.

 

[aalamruad]

Should the receiver of stolen goods - though he did not steal them... or nor know they were stolen be allowed to keep them if we know who the real owner is and that he/she is adversely affected by the loss of their property? Should we give them more stolen property because they have been accustomed to living a life furnished with stolen propterty? As usual, when the previous rationalizer of "justice" fails, we resort to "compassion" though I have already pointed out that "compassion" is needed very badly in Mexico where US trained physician could spread around lots of compassion through their trade.

Med students and physicians who were illegally brought to the US as young children aren't stealing anything; the US government is using taxpayer money to support healthcare in medically underserved regions of the US to support US citizens, and they're funneling that taxpayer money to those underserved communities via DREAMers, who are the only physicians serving those underserved communities at such high rates.

 

[OathTaker]

The sense of entitlement is strong here.

Nobody denied US citizens the right to a medical school seat. Whether they are international F1 students or DACA students, they earned their spot in medical school through merit.

Do you think someone with a weaker application deserves a spot over an F1 or DACA student (both groups are not classified as US citizens) just because he or she was born in US soil? And yes, I acknowledge that some US citizens obtained citizenship later in life, but the general idea here is a "us" vs "them" mentality.

That does not seem to pervade the industry. State medical schools show favoritism for In-State students because they and/or their parents paid taxes to the State. Merit is not as strong a component and everybody accepts this. The "entitlement" comes from foreign Dreamers who are granted seats subsidized by American taxpayers just like they were when they went to US taxpayer funded elementary school. And because they did good at them or for many possible reasons are not "entitled" to seats either. Merit has many components. Breaking the law is one component that this board has mentioned as possibly affecting receiving a spot in medical school. Is that an "entitlement" of those who have not committed a crime?

 

[OathTaker]

Med students and physicians who were illegally brought to the US as young children aren't stealing anything; the US government is using taxpayer money to support healthcare in medically underserved regions of the US to support US citizens, and they're funneling that taxpayer money to those underserved communities via DREAMers, who are the only physicians serving those underserved communities at such high rates.

They can do that to underserved in Mexico as well. Individual can do that anytime they want. DREAMer communities should be located in Mexico.
Dreamer do indeed steal money from the US taxpayers that could be used to better their own poor and their own lives. US taxpayers want a better life and should not have that stripped from them by the government to support foreign people invading. And yes, money does enable a better lifestyle - the kinf many South of the border invade to obtain off the backs of the tax payers.

 

[aalamruad]

They can do that to underserved in Mexico as well. Individual can do that anytime they want. DREAMer communities should be located in Mexico.
Dreamer do indeed steal money from the US taxpayers that could be used to better their own poor and their own lives. US taxpayers want a better life and should not have that stripped from them by the government to support foreign people invading. And yes, money does enable a better lifestyle - the kinf many South of the border invade to obtain off the backs of the tax payers.

You don't know what "steal" means, and we're not making any progress with this discussion so I'm going to stop debating this with you.

 

[Lucca]

*very deep breath*
*exhale*

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes.


Also:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/w07/feature1.cfm

 

[OathTaker]

*very deep breath*
*exhale*

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes.


Also:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/w07/feature1.cfm

How do you know? Their tax returns? Did they file them? And if so does it grant them citizenship without the process the rest need to follow to be legal?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

We were all immigrants or descendants of immigrants at some point in our histories.

People do what they have to do to survive.

 

[OathTaker]

We were all immigrants or descendants of immigrants at some point in our histories.

People do what they have to do to survive.

When our ancestors came to the USA they worked their rears off and entered legally. Not the same for dreamers. People do what they can to survive in their own countries. Maybe Mexico should do the same and rid themselves of their own corrupt government instead of corrupting ours. Takes effort -- which some won't put forth especially if they can guilt good people into giving them what they want under some false premise of "social justice".

 

[OathTaker]

.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

.

?

 

[carrots28]

How do you know? Their tax returns? Did they file them? And if so does it grant them citizenship without the process the rest need to follow to be legal?

I volunteer with dreamers and I know some families personally. Yes undocumented parents do file taxes in order to go through the college application for their kids. No it does not grant them citizenship outright. It can help them when they legally go through the courts to apply for US residency to show that they were responsible and consistent in filing taxes over the course of several years. If they do get residency, then they apply for citizenship and must take the citizenship test like everybody else.

 

[carrots28]

Not only come here illegally but obtain US subsidized healthcare, education, food stamps (yes they do get them) housing paid for by US citizen taxpayers.

Undocumented immigrants are only given coverage for emergency medical care. Most families in this situation do not have healthcare insurance except for their children. A majority of undocumented immigrants don't even have insurances and this is a big problem and contributes to the high healthcare costs. There are currently big initiatives to push for preventative care at low costs like free mammograms etc. But realistically I have seen that most people will not seek healthcare and pay for the cost to see a doctor unless there is a medical problem and at that point there are bigger healthcare costs for the health center.

They can get food through channels like WIC but this is because the children are US citizens and maternal health is important to the wellbeing of children.

In terms of education, I can tell you that beyond high school options are difficult for undocumented students. They have to apply as international students and thus receive no federal aid. Top schools may be able to give private scholarships through large endowments but we are talking about extremely high achieving undocumente students who get into these big name schools which is a not common. Most scholarships actually do not allow undocumented students to apply so options for getting free money are extremely limited.

My sources for this information are that I work with the undeserved in both the health and education domains.

 

[carrots28]

When our ancestors came to the USA they worked their rears off and entered legally. Not the same for dreamers. People do what they can to survive in their own countries. Maybe Mexico should do the same and rid themselves of their own corrupt government instead of corrupting ours. Takes effort -- which some won't put forth especially if they can guilt good people into giving them what they want under some false premise of "social justice".

Two things:
1. The US did some shady stuff with Native Americans that might not be morally correct or even legal, such as ignoring peace treaties signed with tribal leaders. This is why current descendants refuse to be bought off their lands for millions of dollars because there were formal agreements that were never honored. Individually we are not responsible for this tragedy but we should be aware that our ancestors did not always take the legal approach. I think even Trump acknowledged that the US has done shady things in the past in reference to his defense of Putin.

2. I agree that the focus should actually be helping to solve corruption issues in Mexico. I think historically we have had something to do with how messed up Mexico is given the long history of US's "sphere of influence" in Mexican politics from the Monroe doctrine into the cold war era.

 

[Mad Jack]

How does one get a DEA number or medical license without papers? I mean, it's hard enough as is to get licensed, so can they even practice after graduation?

 

[Raryn]

How does one get a DEA number or medical license without papers? I mean, it's hard enough as is to get licensed, so can they even practice after graduation?

I'm licensed in two states and was never asked to provide proof of citizenship. Proof of med school graduation, proof of residency, a criminal background check including fingerprinting, etc, etc, sure. But never had to show my passport.

DEA is even simpler. You basically only have to give proof of licensure in a state and a short form confirming name/address. That and $731 gives you a DEA. It's a painless, simple system.

 

[appalachian_man]

When our ancestors came to the USA they worked their rears off and entered legally. Not the same for dreamers. People do what they can to survive in their own countries. Maybe Mexico should do the same and rid themselves of their own corrupt government instead of corrupting ours. Takes effort -- which some won't put forth especially if they can guilt good people into giving them what they want under some false premise of "social justice".

If by "legally" you mean there were no laws against slaughtering the natives who were here first, then yeah technically they came here "legally," I guess. And it speaks volumes if you think that DREAMers don't work their asses off. The ones I know have all worked multiple jobs to support themselves and their families.

Also, you do understand that not all DREAMers are Mexican, right? I'm not sure why you're conflating those terms.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm licensed in two states and was never asked to provide proof of citizenship. Proof of med school graduation, proof of residency, a criminal background check including fingerprinting, etc, etc, sure. But never had to show my passport.

DEA is even simpler. You basically only have to give proof of licensure in a state and a short form confirming name/address. That and $731 gives you a DEA. It's a painless, simple system.

But how do they get a residency without a SSN or visa?

 

[Raryn]

But how do they get a residency without a SSN or visa?

The current program under DACA gives them the right to work in this country.

As the law stands right now, there's no barriers to completed training and a long career. But the question is whether DACA might be repealed by the new administration. The answer is *shrug*.

 

[carrots28]

But how do they get a residency without a SSN or visa?

DACA students can get an SSN for the purposes of work. However, they cannot apply for permanent residency aka green card.

 

[Mad Jack]

The current program under DACA gives them the right to work in this country.

As the law stands right now, there's no barriers to completed training and a long career. But the question is whether DACA might be repealed by the new administration. The answer is *shrug*.

DACA students can get an SSN for the purposes of work. However, they cannot apply for permanent residency aka green card.

Good to know. Hopefully Trump doesn't pull back DACA.

 

[itscomplicateddd]

But how do they get a residency without a SSN or visa?

State residency is up to individual states to determine. Many states have special laws for undocumented immigrant students that allow undocumented students to establish state residencies.

 

[Stagg737]

Is it really preferential treatment? Couldn't it be considered that maybe they just fit the mission of the school?

Most top schools have preferential treatment for students heavily invested in research or preferential treatment for students with top grades. I think it's difficult to say what "preferential treatment" is if the basis of selection is dependent on just fulfilling the school's mission.

Most importantly, I don't think we can tell a school what its mission should be.

I know a large number of people that attended Loyola undergrad, some that attend med school there, and have interacted with their staff. Generally speaking the DACA thing doesn't seem to fit the mission of their school that they generally enforce/practice.

The reason for accepting DACA DREAMers is:

"The United States is facing a significant shortage of physicians. In addition, large portions of the U.S. population are underserved by the current distribution and demographic profile of physicians. DREAMers represent a previously untapped source of qualified and diverse talent that will enrich the medical education environment, the medical profession, and the lives of patients. DREAMers generally are bicultural, bilingual, and possess insight into the migrant experience. In a nation with a large recent immigrant population, DREAMers can increase the capacity of the physician workforce to treat the array of patients encountered in clinical practices"


So my question is, are there not enough legal immigrants to fill the spots and address the needs that DACA DREAMers are being given access to?

Also, what is stopping these DREAMer graduates from not practicing in underserved/immigrant populations?

The physician shortage myth has been discussed here many times. It's not a shortage, it's a maldistribution. To the bold, nothing is stopping them. Which is why the argument that they'll definitely graduate and serve their communities is flawed. Unless they're going to sign a contract stating they promise to practice medicine in an underserved community for X years after graduation is implemented, saying their students will follow their mission statement is meaningless.

I don't see where in what I posted it says they reserve spots for those students. They seem to explicitly state the opposite.

We should be smart enough by now to know that people and organizations in power will say one thing and do the opposite. That doesn't exclude med schools.

The DEA doesn't request proof of citizenship. Neither do the medical licensing boards.

DEA process is actually remarkably painless. It's a two page online form and you get your # within a week or two. The licensing boards are orders of magnitude more annoying.

Wait, you're saying there's an administrative aspect of medicine that isn't a total nightmare? Stop giving me hope...

Do the foreign governments give and cover the federal loans?

I've read on this board that it is next to impossible for Americans to attend Canadian medical schools.

It's next to impossible for anyone who is not a Canadian citizen to get into a Canadian med school. It's why a lot of Canadian students go to school abroad. Something that many liberals seem to not understand is that the socialist countries that actually work decently have pretty strict immigration laws. What people don't realize is that the U.S. already has some of the most lax immigration laws in the world, and we don't even enforce many of them. You can't just provide everyone with social services unless you limit the number of people you're providing for because there are limited resources.

Med students and physicians who were illegally brought to the US as young children aren't stealing anything; the US government is using taxpayer money to support healthcare in medically underserved regions of the US to support US citizens, and they're funneling that taxpayer money to those underserved communities via DREAMers, who are the only physicians serving those underserved communities at such high rates.

They may not have stolen anything, but they are benefitting from goods/services they are receiving because of an illegal act performed by someone else. In any other area of law, they would not be entitled to those goods or services. It doesn't matter if the beneficiary is unaware that they were not entitled to the goods or services, they are typically required by law to return them and the person who committed the illegal act is punished. In the immigration scenario, the parents would be punished and children (or now adults) would not be entitled to services. Obviously this scenario is different from acts involving property, but it doesn't change the fact that the same amount of resources are now forced to be spread among more people.

Also, source for the bolded?

 

[673441]

www.theatlantic.com/video/index/515466/what-will-happen-to-undocumented-doctors/

What are your thoughts regarding undocumented doctors? I wanted to ask because I was browsing Reddit, and the general vibe that I got from /r/medicalschool seems to be hostility towards undocumented medical students. They are clearly intelligent and talented, but they are in a limbo that they cannot get out of.

Lol just no. Doctors are responsible for producing a J1 visa prior to even being offered a job. As far as "dreamers" being accepted into American med schools, that's a bit of a clusterf***.


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[Dr.Sticks]

*very deep breath*
*exhale*

Undocumented immigrants pay taxes.


Also:

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/hmn/w07/feature1.cfm

How? They don't have an SSN

I always found Dr.Q inspiring
Although I am not fond of illegal immigration the fact is most of those folks are just trying to earn a living.

He came here broke, went to UC Berkely, went to Harvard med, trained as a neurosurgeon at UCSF, worked at Hopkins and now Mayo..

It is just so inspiring how dedicated he was and defied all odds.

 

[itscomplicateddd]

How? They don't have an SSN

I always found Dr.Q inspiring
Although I am not fond of illegal immigration the fact is most of those folks are just trying to earn a living.

He came here broke, went to UC Berkely, went to Harvard med, trained as a neurosurgeon at UCSF, worked at Hopkins and now Mayo..

It is just so inspiring how dedicated he was and defied all odds.

You do not need a SSN to pay taxes. You can pay taxes using an ITIN, which anyone can obtain for solely tax purposes.

This is going to cause confusion but DACA students do have SSN numbers for tax and working purposes. They're a niche population of undocumented immigrants.

 

[673441]

You do not need a SSN to pay taxes. You can pay taxes using an ITIN, which anyone can obtain for solely tax purposes.

This is going to cause confusion but DACA students do have SSN numbers for tax and working purposes. They're a niche population of undocumented immigrants.

If this is true that's insane... why not just give them citizenship? That seems to be a huge failure in govt to go that far as to give someone a number that allows them to pay taxes but deny them citizenship bc of clerical BS


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[trepon]

I didn't know Loyola did this. Good for them, definitely improves my impression of them. I am cynical these days about medical schools that claim to help underserved populations by accepting wealthy minorities who have never stepped foot inside a poor undrserved neighborhoods but Loyola is serious. Good for them.

 

[Lucca]

If this is true that's insane... why not just give them citizenship? That seems to be a huge failure in govt to go that far as to give someone a number that allows them to pay taxes but deny them citizenship bc of clerical BS


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

It is true. Source: several DACA friends and about 2 years of experience working with undocumented immigrants in legal and medical clinics.

I always find it amusing that people get so up in arms about the spectre of someone in this country not paying taxes (nevermind that whether or not the President himself does or not is still an unsettled question) when the fact is that there is a substantial portion of the population in this country that works and pays taxes and still, nevertheless, essentially has no defensible rights whatsoever.

The whole tax thing is just a transparent cover for either racial or nationalist ideology -- or both. It is doubly amusing that the people most angry about "illegals" always get who these "illegals" even are wrong. They are not all from Mexico. They are mostly from Central America (you know, the countries where we cycled through brutal right-wing dictatorships for decades as a part of a foreign policy centered around regime change and keeping foreign economies accessible...) but they are also from Asia, Europe, Africa, the Caribbean...

Undocumented workers are some of the most vulnerable and exploited populations in the country. Most of them would go somewhere else if a better deal were actually possible for them. DACA students have it even worse. They don't have a "place to go back to" other than the U.S. if they have been here their entire life. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

It is true. Source: several DACA friends and about 2 years of experience working with undocumented immigrants in legal and medical clinics.

I always find it amusing that people get so up in arms about the spectre of someone in this country not paying taxes (nevermind that whether or not the President himself does or not is still an unsettled question) when the fact is that there is a substantial portion of the population in this country that works and pays taxes and still, nevertheless, essentially has no defensible rights whatsoever.

The whole tax thing is just a transparent cover for either racial or nationalist ideology -- or both. It is doubly amusing that the people most angry about "illegals" always get who these "illegals" even are wrong. They are not all from Mexico. They are mostly from Central America (you know, the countries where we cycled through brutal right-wing dictatorships for decades as a part of a foreign policy centered around regime change and keeping foreign economies accessible...) but they are also from Asia, Europe, Africa, the Caribbean...

Undocumented workers are some of the most vulnerable and exploited populations in the country. Most of them would go somewhere else if a better deal were actually possible for them. DACA students have it even worse. They don't have a "place to go back to" other than the U.S. if they have been here their entire life. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.

I can understand why people are against illegal immigration
We can not vet those people, put them through the immunizations stuff, etc
We have borders for a reason; Without them we wouldn't have a country.
With that said a baby who gets brought here illegally had no choice, and I don't think the baby or child should be punished.

Anyways I don't really know what will happen to those Dreamers, but if they have an SSN and everything might as well give them a green card at that point..

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Personally my perspective of undocumented physicians is the same as those who finished college. Our society has invested an enormous amount of money into you, equal if not greater than the average citizen. It would be wasteful to deport and benefit other countries.

 

[GoodWillShunting]

I'm a current Loyola medical student. DACA students do NOT receive preferential treatment. They do NOT take your seats (or your jobs; "Dey takes arr jobzz!!!") They have uncertain futures, and are very limited in what they can go into. They've also been here since they were children, and it would be literally impossible to point them out if speaking with them. And yes, it absolutely fits in line with the Jesuit values/cores. Jesus people are misinformed.


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[Astra]

The whole tax thing is just a transparent cover for either racial or nationalist ideology -- or both.

Nah. I didn't know about the tax thing before your guys pointed it out but I am ( and know many others) not motivated by racial or nationalist ideology.

the fact is that there is a substantial portion of the population in this country that works and pays taxes and still, nevertheless, essentially has no defensible rights whatsoever.

You know how they can get those defensible rights? Immigrating here legally.

It is doubly amusing that the people most angry about "illegals" always get who these "illegals" even are wrong. They are not all from Mexico. They are mostly from Central America

Yea you're wrong about that ( unless you have some statistics that show otherwise).Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants in 2014

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

Out of the remaining 48%, I doubt that Central americans make up more than 30% ( please show statistics if incase I'm wrong). From what I searched, I found the following image ( it is slightly out of date but I think the source is reliable)

Source: http://immigration.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000845


So to assume that the average illegal immigrant is Mexican is not misguided. Although the number of Mexicans entering illegally is dropping, they still make up most of the illegal immigration here and will continue to remain the biggest group of people immigrating here illegally.


In regards to Central American illegal immigrants, many are entering through the US-Mexican border.

"From Oct. 1, 2015, to Jan. 31, 2016, 24,616 families and 20,455 unaccompanied children – the vast majority of them from Central America – were apprehended at the southwestern U.S. border, double the total from the same time period the year before."

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/11/mexico-and-immigration-to-us/

That fact coupled with Mexican Illegal immigrants causes many to fixate on Mexico when discussing Illegal immigration.

(you know, the countries where we cycled through brutal right-wing dictatorships for decades as a part of a foreign policy centered around regime change and keeping foreign economies accessible...)

Yea this was a terrible thing to do by the US but that doesn't justify illegal immigration from those countries.

Undocumented workers are some of the most vulnerable and exploited populations in the country. Most of them would go somewhere else if a better deal were actually possible for them.

Why don't they go back home if its so bad here? Immigrating to America is a privilege. Not a right.

Also, its funny how enforcing our borders and immigration policies makes America a terrible country.

Meanwhile...

 

[aalamruad]

Nah. I didn't know about the tax thing before your guys pointed it out but I am ( and know many others) not motivated by racial or nationalist ideology.

You know how they can get those defensible rights? Immigrating here legally.

Yea you're wrong about that ( unless you have some statistics that show otherwise). In 2014, 11,100,000 illegal immigrants entered the US. Of those 11,100,00, 5,850,000 were Mexican which is 52%.

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/03/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/

Out of the remaining 48%, I doubt that Central americans make up more than 30% ( please show statistics if incase I'm wrong). From what I searched, I found the following image ( it is slightly out of date but I think the source is reliable)

Source: http://immigration.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000845


So to assume that the average illegal immigrant is Mexican is not misguided. Although the number of Mexicans entering illegally is dropping, they still make up most of the illegal immigration here and will continue to remain the biggest group of people immigrating here illegally.


In regards to Central American illegal immigrants, many are entering through the US-Mexican border.

"From Oct. 1, 2015, to Jan. 31, 2016, 24,616 families and 20,455 unaccompanied children – the vast majority of them from Central America – were apprehended at the southwestern U.S. border, double the total from the same time period the year before."

Source: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/11/mexico-and-immigration-to-us/

That fact coupled with Mexican Illegal immigrants causes many to fixate on Mexico when discussing Illegal immigration.


Yea this was a terrible thing to do by the US but that doesn't justify illegal immigration from those countries.


Why don't they go back home if its so bad here? Immigrating to America is a privilege. Not a right.

Also, its funny how enforcing our borders and immigration policies makes America a terrible country.

Meanwhile...

There's so much with this post that's profoundly misguided, but I'll just point out a few of the main things:

1) No, they can't immigrate here legally. They were brought here as children, they have no citizenship in another country, and there's no path to citizenship. There's no way for them to immigrate here legally if they're illegally brought here as children. Their only home is America.

2) No, 11.1 million people didn't illegally immigrate here in a single year... Not even close. Go read that article again, because you don't seem to understand the figures in it at all.

3) Pointing out the unjust immigration policies of other countries doesn't justify having unjust and absurd policies here.

 

[Astra]

No, they can't immigrate here legally. They were brought here as children, they have no citizenship in another country, and there's no path to citizenship. There's no way for them to immigrate here legally if they're illegally brought here as children. Their only home is America.

Could you quote what you are replying to so I can better respond?

I'm talking about illegal immigrants in general, not focusing just on children brought here. ( In regards to children, you and me already had a convo where we agreed upon a pathway to legal status)

Also, how do children not have citizenship in another country? Wouldn't they be citizens by being born there?

2) No, 11.1 million people didn't immigrate here in a single year... Not even close. Go read that article again, because you don't seem to understand the figures in it at all.

Yea you're right. My bad. Totally misread that.

But the fact remains that "Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants in 2014" which contradicts Lucca's point regarding illegal immigrants being mostly from Central America

Pointing out the unjust immigration policies of other countries doesn't justify having unjust and absurd policies here.

How do you think Mexico's immigration policies are unjust? I think its pretty fair. You come in illegally, you get caught, you get deported.

 

[aalamruad]

Could you quote what you are replying to so I can better respond?

I'm talking about illegal immigrants in general, not focusing just on children brought here.

Also, how do children not have citizenship in another country? Wouldn't they be citizens by being born there?

This thread is about people brought here as children. Those are the people DACA applies to. DACA stands for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. You should read up on it before taking a stance against it.

And no, if a kid is born in Mexico and immediately brought to the US, s/he isn't a citizen of Mexico. And they can't just go back to Mexico and immediately become citizens of Mexico. They have no country of legality, and a lot of them don't even remember ever living anywhere other than America.

Yea you're right. My bad. Totally misread that.

But the fact remains that "Mexicans made up 52% of all unauthorized immigrants in 2014" which contradicts Lucca's point regarding illegal immigrants being mostly from Central America

How do you think Mexico's immigration policies are unjust? I think its pretty fair. You come in illegally, you get caught, you get deported.

I wasn't making a comment about whether or not Mexico's immigration policies are just; I'm saying that the immigration policies of other countries are entirely irrelevant. Mexico's immigration policies have no bearing on the discussion in this thread, so I was just pointing out that it was pointless of you to bring it up to justify the US's policies.

 

[JP2740]

We were all immigrants or descendants of immigrants at some point in our histories.

People do what they have to do to survive.

I find this kind of insulting to family members who came here legally

 

[Astra]

This thread is about people brought here as children. Those are the people DACA applies to. DACA stands for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. You should read up on it before taking a stance against it.

Dude, I never claimed to have a stance against DACA...

Lucca brought up undocumented workers and I responded in regards to that.

And no, if a kid is born in Mexico and immediately brought to the US, s/he isn't a citizen of Mexico. And they can't just go back to Mexico and immediately become citizens of Mexico. .

Cool, didn't know that.

I'm saying that the immigration policies of other countries are entirely irrelevant. Mexico's immigration policies have no bearing on the discussion in this thread, so I was just pointing out that it was pointless of you to bring it up to justify the US's policies.

I disagree.

 

[aalamruad]

Dude, I never claimed to have a stance against DACA...

Lucca brought up undocumented workers and I responded in regards to that.

The entire thread (including Lucca's post) is related to DACA and undocumented physicians in the US. If this were just a thread about immigration policies in general, it'd be in the SPF, not in allo/osteo.

Cool, didn't know that.

I disagree.

If you actually have reasons for disagreeing that you'd like to share, feel free. I'm skeptical that there are any good reasons to justify absurd immigration policies on the basis of just or unjust immigration policies elsewhere in the world.

 

[673441]

It is true. Source: several DACA friends and about 2 years of experience working with undocumented immigrants in legal and medical clinics.

I always find it amusing that people get so up in arms about the spectre of someone in this country not paying taxes (nevermind that whether or not the President himself does or not is still an unsettled question) when the fact is that there is a substantial portion of the population in this country that works and pays taxes and still, nevertheless, essentially has no defensible rights whatsoever.

The whole tax thing is just a transparent cover for either racial or nationalist ideology -- or both. It is doubly amusing that the people most angry about "illegals" always get who these "illegals" even are wrong. They are not all from Mexico. They are mostly from Central America (you know, the countries where we cycled through brutal right-wing dictatorships for decades as a part of a foreign policy centered around regime change and keeping foreign economies accessible...) but they are also from Asia, Europe, Africa, the Caribbean...

Undocumented workers are some of the most vulnerable and exploited populations in the country. Most of them would go somewhere else if a better deal were actually possible for them. DACA students have it even worse. They don't have a "place to go back to" other than the U.S. if they have been here their entire life. It's absurd to suggest otherwise.

My sympathy is with immigrants since Im a product of immigration. I just don't get what systematic failure has prevented these ppl who work and go to school here for most of their natural born lives from obtaining citizenship. Playing devils advocate, the reason most ppl get "up-in-arms" about immigration reform is the obvious exploitation of federal and state programs intended for ppl who pay into the purse which provides these programs in the first place. It's a matter of fairness, however liberal ideologists have a real hard time understanding the concept of 'fair.'


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Raryn]

This thread is about people brought here as children. Those are the people DACA applies to. DACA stands for Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals. You should read up on it before taking a stance against it.

And no, if a kid is born in Mexico and immediately brought to the US, s/he isn't a citizen of Mexico. And they can't just go back to Mexico and immediately become citizens of Mexico. They have no country of legality, and a lot of them don't even remember ever living anywhere other than America.

Um, while this may be true for some countries (and does in fact lead to "stateless" people in certain circumstances), this isn't true for Mexico.

Mexico, much like the US, does abide by the principle of jus solis PLUS jus sanguinis.

Anyone born in Mexico, REGARDLESS of the citizenship status of the parents is by virtue of being born on Mexican territory, automatically a citizen of Mexico. In addition, anyone born anywhere in the world where either parent is a Mexican citizen born in Mexico has the right to claim Mexican citizenship.

I mean, I suppose we could torture the situation and make up a case where the baby was born in rural Mexico, the parents hid it from the government, a birth certificate was never issued, and the child doesn't have papers in any country... but the same can also happen in the US.

 

[raiderette]

Most people don't pay Federal income taxes. However, undocumented workers have payroll and social security taxes withheld, yet they can't collect social security. All people pay sales taxes. The work that immigrants do (including food service, agriculture, landscaping, slaughter houses and manual labor are jobs that most Americans won't do. If you don't believe me, talk to the farmers that had crops die in the heart of the recession in the Carolinas because the states cracked Dow on immigration.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

@walloobi I get that about the kids; But that doesn't make illegal immigration right.
We have laws about this for a reason..
If we just let anyone in we wouldn't know
1.Who is here
2.Wouldn't be able to prevent deadly disease from entering the u.s
3.Crime would skyrocket
4.Potential for destruction of our entire ecosystem would skyrocket(someone could bring invasive species here easily without a border)

Anyways; Point is borders aren't a nationalist thing, they aee a sensible way to protect ourselves, and the environment.
They also ensure we don't grow at a capacity that exceeds our ability...(you know how bad it would be if the gates just opened and suddenly we had a population increase of 200 million?)

Now these kids, sure give them amnesty it isn't their fault. It would be like blaming the child of a murderer for murder..

As for those who come here illegally? I think a case by case scenario is the best way to look at it.
I am all for deporting violent felons/criminals and potentially working something out with those who have lived in peace and are just hardworking people trying to make their life better.

 

[Lucca]

My sympathy is with immigrants since Im a product of immigration. I just don't get what systematic failure has prevented these ppl who work and go to school here for most of their natural born lives from obtaining citizenship. Playing devils advocate, the reason most ppl get "up-in-arms" about immigration reform is the obvious exploitation of federal and state programs intended for ppl who pay into the purse which provides these programs in the first place. It's a matter of fairness, however liberal ideologists have a real hard time understanding the concept of 'fair.'


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

You can't just obtain citizenship as a result of being here a long time. You have to go through the visa / green card / residency / permanent residency / citizenship pipeline. For whatever reason, you can fall through the cracks of that in the midst of waiting for papers (Some people have had green cards approved and have been living here without documents for a decade or more until their green card finally arrives and they are officially "documented"). Many people come here legally on Visas and let the visas expire because they cannot go back to their country for whatever reason. For a lot of people, especially from places like Central America it's to escape violence. A lot of those same people ask for asylum and have to spend a year or more in the process of trying to obtain asylum. Even with a legitimate threat to life, many of these asylum cases will go denied, at which point people will be deported. Of those deported, some will try to come back illegally because they cannot risk going back to where they came from. Many more people dont want to take the risk of going through the asylum pipeline because being deported could mean being separated from their child.

I'm a legal immigrant. I get the "I / my parents did the right way why cant everyone else" kitsch, but the immigration process in this country *is not good*. People *do* fall through the cracks, and it happens all of the time. A variety of complex factors force people to stay in undocumented limbo for much longer than they ever expected and quickly a solution *for now* turns into a solution *for a lifetime* especially when children are involved.

 

[Lawpy]

You can't just obtain citizenship as a result of being here a long time. You have to go through the visa / green card / residency / permanent residency / citizenship pipeline. For whatever reason, you can fall through the cracks of that in the midst of waiting for papers (Some people have had green cards approved and have been living here without documents for a decade or more until their green card finally arrives and they are officially "documented"). Many people come here legally on Visas and let the visas expire because they cannot go back to their country for whatever reason. For a lot of people, especially from places like Central America it's to escape violence. A lot of those same people ask for asylum and have to spend a year or more in the process of trying to obtain asylum. Even with a legitimate threat to life, many of these asylum cases will go denied, at which point people will be deported. Of those deported, some will try to come back illegally because they cannot risk going back to where they came from. Many more people dont want to take the risk of going through the asylum pipeline because being deported could mean being separated from their child.

I'm a legal immigrant. I get the "I did the right way why cant everyone else" kitsch, but the immigration process in this country *is not good*. People *do* fall through the cracks, and it happens all of the time.

I think it's better to move this thread to SPF.

 

[aalamruad]

@walloobi I get that about the kids; But that doesn't make illegal immigration right.
We have laws about this for a reason..
If we just let anyone in we wouldn't know
1.Who is here
2.Wouldn't be able to prevent deadly disease from entering the u.s
3.Crime would skyrocket
4.Potential for destruction of our entire ecosystem would skyrocket(someone could bring invasive species here easily without a border)

Anyways; Point is borders aren't a nationalist thing, they aee a sensible way to protect ourselves, and the environment.
They also ensure we don't grow at a capacity that exceeds our ability...(you know how bad it would be if the gates just opened and suddenly we had a population increase of 200 million?)

Now these kids, sure give them amnesty it isn't their fault. It would be like blaming the child of a murderer for murder..

As for those who come here illegally? I think a case by case scenario is the best way to look at it.
I am all for deporting violent felons/criminals and potentially working something out with those who have lived in peace and are just hardworking people trying to make their life better.

Which post of mine are you referring to? I don't think I defended illegal immigration of adults at any point in this thread (or ever). All I've been saying is that kids shouldn't be punished for being brought here illegally, and we don't seem to disagree on that. I never said we shouldn't have borders.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

You can't just obtain citizenship as a result of being here a long time. You have to go through the visa / green card / residency / permanent residency / citizenship pipeline. For whatever reason, you can fall through the cracks of that in the midst of waiting for papers (Some people have had green cards approved and have been living here without documents for a decade or more until their green card finally arrives and they are officially "documented"). Many people come here legally on Visas and let the visas expire because they cannot go back to their country for whatever reason. For a lot of people, especially from places like Central America it's to escape violence. A lot of those same people ask for asylum and have to spend a year or more in the process of trying to obtain asylum. Even with a legitimate threat to life, many of these asylum cases will go denied, at which point people will be deported. Of those deported, some will try to come back illegally because they cannot risk going back to where they came from. Many more people dont want to take the risk of going through the asylum pipeline because being deported could mean being separated from their child.

I'm a legal immigrant. I get the "I / my parents did the right way why cant everyone else" kitsch, but the immigration process in this country *is not good*. People *do* fall through the cracks, and it happens all of the time. A variety of complex factors force people to stay in undocumented limbo for much longer than they ever expected and quickly a solution *for now* turns into a solution *for a lifetime* especially when children are involved.

So call your senator/congressman, rally for change.
Breaking the law in my opinion isn't a good way to go about it, and unfortunately we only have so much room.
That's just reality, you can't save everyone, you can't help everyone. As sad as that is, that is just life.

 

[Astra]

The entire thread (including Lucca's post) is related to DACA and undocumented physicians in the US. If this were just a thread about immigration policies in general, it'd be in the SPF, not in allo/osteo.

ok? My reply was in regards to undocumented workers which doctors fall under. My point is this. If you come here illegally, you should get deported. If you pay taxes while here, that's cool of you. But don't try to turn paying taxes into an excuse for justifying your stay here when you came illegally.

Its like if someone made a million bucks off a scam and that person then donated 100,000 to charity. Cool that you donated to charity but your original crime of committing a scam doesn't go away. You broke the law.

If you actually have reasons for disagreeing that you'd like to share, feel free. I'm skeptical that there are any good reasons to justify absurd immigration policies on the basis of just or unjust immigration policies elsewhere in the world.

I agree with the bolded.

Mexico's immigration policies have no bearing on the discussion in this thread, so I was just pointing out that it was pointless of you to bring it up to justify the US's policies.

But I disagree with this.

Mexico's immigration policies are very relevant because when people cry out about America being intolerant, xenophobic etc. due to enforcing its immigration policy, they should take a good look at what Mexico is doing even though they are responsible for millions of illegal immigrants entering America. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Which post of mine are you referring to? I don't think I defended illegal immigration of adults at any point in this thread (or ever). All I've been saying is that kids shouldn't be punished for being brought here illegally, and we don't seem to disagree on that. I never said we shouldn't have borders.

Probably I mixed you up with Lucca; Yes I do agree.
They are here, assimilated, they are as American as anyone else from how I see it.