What will help them look past my poor Undergrad GPA?

[TGibson81]

Okay folks, I am reading SO many contradicting stories on here I dont know what to believe.

I have a Bachelors in Marketing. I had WAY too much fun in undergrad and really just wanted to graduate, leaving me with a 2.5GPA. After grad I took a job with a non-profit organization, working with children with life-threatening illnesses in a Volunteer Management capacity. My years at this company made me realize how fascinated I was by medicine and brought back the feeling I used to have as a child of "I want to be a Doctor and help people".

Over the past year Ive begun taking the prerequisites and a few others (A&P 1 and 2, Gen Chems, Orgos, Physics, Advcd Chem, Bios, etc.) and I have performed very well.

My concern is that my GPA will not be good enough to pass through a "filter" so to speak. I calculated that it would take me another 3 years full-time to bring my GPA up to a 3.2, with all As.

Is it at all possible, if i do very well on the MCAT, that a school will look at my age, work experience, MCAT score, and recent trend in grades and consider granting me an interview? I feel very confident that, if granted an interview, I could be accepted. I can sell myself in person, but my GPA might hold me back.

I dont want to go DO or to the Carib. Im 28 now and feel like I have grown immensely over that past 6 years, which I could show if i can manage to get my foot in the door.

On a side note, Ive seen many posts about Underrepresented in Med. I am multiracial of black, white, cherokee, and creole- but I dont want to be favored or granted leniency due to my race. Anyway to avoid that?

I would appreciate any thoughts/suggestions anyone may offer. Thanks!

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[sylvanthus]

You really need to get your GPA over a 3.0 to get through most schools filters. So, this will probably take you a couple years. I am unsure why you are unwilling to go to a DO school as it would take you far less time to raise your GPA and dramatically increase your chances (they replace the old, poor grade with the new one when factoring GPA).

But, if you can get your GPA above a 3.0 to avoid the computer cut-off at a lot of places, you may be considered if everything else is outstanding.

Seriously, though, take a look at DO schools and retake the courses you got Fs in. This will speed things up a ton and you have a much better shot of getting into a DO program than you do an MD.

 

[vc7777]

You really need to get your GPA over a 3.0 to get through most schools filters. So, this will probably take you a couple years. I am unsure why you are unwilling to go to a DO school as it would take you far less time to raise your GPA and dramatically increase your chances (they replace the old, poor grade with the new one when factoring GPA).

But, if you can get your GPA above a 3.0 to avoid the computer cut-off at a lot of places, you may be considered if everything else is outstanding.

Seriously, though, take a look at DO schools and retake the courses you got Fs in. This will speed things up a ton and you have a much better shot of getting into a DO program than you do an MD.

I agree that you should consider DO, as well.

However, I don't totally agree that 3.0 is a magic number to avoid a cut-off.

All other aspects of your application being competitive: If you accept that you will have to move, and apply broadly, I think you will find that there are some schools that will consider your trend in GPA as well as the fact that you have matured since your undergrad years.

Perhaps you can tabulate a list of schools that seems to be more receptive to students with a non-traditional background?

 

[ShyRem]

There are people who have done amazing AMAZING things (I'm talking inventing industry standard cancer tests amazing) but had a sub-3.0 GPA and didn't get accepted. Heck, never even got an INTERVIEW for years, all while working on raising their GPA. AND they had really great MCAT scores.

The likelihood of your being accepted with a sub-3.0 GPA is slim to none. You probably have a better chance of winning PowerBall. Even if you do well on the MCAT (say 35 or better). And, no, they don't care how old those grades are. My 20 year old craptacular grades were worth just as much as my recent fabulous grades.

So, here's the raw truth as I see it, in my opinion and experience:
1. You can apply to every darn school there is you could possibly see yourself attending and spend a LOT of money applying, realizing your chances for acceptance with your current GPA is extremely slim.

2. While you do this, I would strongly (STRONGLY) suggest you take courses to raise your GPA. Because the bottom line is, your GPA and sGPA counts. A lot.

3. Be prepared to reapply again, with the same strategy as #1.

4. I would strongly suggest you make an appointment with admissions directors at as many medical schools as you can get to and ask them an honest opinion of your application and chances. You may get honesty, you may not.

5. save your pennies. Applying is expensive.

6. if you truly don't want to go DO or caribbean, then don't. You won't be happy. Granted, you would have an easier time applying because DO replaces grades rather than averages them, but if you don't want it, don't apply. If you truly want the MD or nothing at all, you'll work do the 3 years of full-time school to get your GPA up, applying every year along the way.

7. If you're stuck on going the MD route, I would play the minority card for all it's worth. There are special programs for American Indian ancestry. Use them if you're stubborn about getting in to only an MD program.

Study for the MCAT hard. Plenty of folks say "oh, I'm going to do very well" only to end up with an 18 or a 20. And good luck.

 

[Mister T]

I dont want to go DO or to the Carib. Im 28 now and feel like I have grown immensely over that past 6 years, which I could show if i can manage to get my foot in the door.

On a side note, Ive seen many posts about Underrepresented in Med. I am multiracial of black, white, cherokee, and creole- but I dont want to be favored or granted leniency due to my race. Anyway to avoid that?

Coming from an "ORM," I honestly have to say that you're the stereotypical URM who gets in for being completely unqualified and with a sense of entitlement (partied hard through college), and you have the nerve to say that you don't want to go DO?

LOL.

You say that you don't want to be favored or granted leniency due to your race, but you and I both know that you're going to put it down. You're just asking that question because you want to feel validated by others. But if you really want to know how to not be favored or granted leniency, don't put down you're black or Cherokee or whatever, that is the only way, but we all know like that's really gonna happen

In any case, I'm pretty sure that you'll get into any MD school you apply to because you're purportedly black and Cherokee which is like the golden ticket to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, just make sure you get over a 23 on the MCAT and I'm confident (not even kidding) that you'll get in. Just make sure your interview about how your ancestors were persecuted or enslaved or whatever (kind of like mine that worked on the railroads in America for bare subsistence for the rich white man, but in our case it's ok because we're not as important ) is convincing enough because you want to get them emotional and really empathetic with all that you've suffered through... in college for instance.

Socialism and "equality and fairness" for the win!

Screw meritocracy as it's overrated.

 

[DrMidlife]

I am multiracial of black, white, cherokee, and creole- but I dont want to be favored or granted leniency due to my race.

imho if you convince yourself (by killing the prereqs and the MCAT and following guidance from cranky mentors) that you're med school material, despite GPA, then there's no shame whatsoever in playing the URM card. OMG play it. I would.

Definitely think about SMPs and URM postbacs. See the postbac forum.

 

[njbmd]

To the OP:
If you go the allopathic route, it IS going to take some years of straight As to get your uGPA into a reasonable range for admission into medical school. With that being said, you have to decide if you want to be a physician or if you are concerned about the initials behind your name. If you want to practice medicine, you take the route that gets you to that point and not look back.

Don't count on the "URM thing" to get you much. If you are not otherwise qualified, your ethnicity isn't going to make up for much despite what you read on this website message board. Medical schools are interested in accepting students that show evidence by past academic performance that they can get through a challenging curriculum. Until you string a few years of academic success together, your race isn't going to be help you much.

The more time between your early poor grades and your more recent excellent grades, the better but grade "damage control" as others have said, is a long and tedious process. Keep working forward and keep your eyes on your goal. Good luck!

 

[Mister T]

To the OP:
If you go the allopathic route, it IS going to take some years of straight As to get your uGPA into a reasonable range for admission into medical school. With that being said, you have to decide if you want to be a physician or if you are concerned about the initials behind your name. If you want to practice medicine, you take the route that gets you to that point and not look back.

Don't count on the "URM thing" to get you much. If you are not otherwise qualified, your ethnicity isn't going to make up for much despite what you read on this website message board. Medical schools are interested in accepting students that show evidence by past academic performance that they can get through a challenging curriculum. Until you string a few years of academic success together, your race isn't going to be help you much.

The more time between your early poor grades and your more recent excellent grades, the better but grade "damage control" as others have said, is a long and tedious process. Keep working forward and keep your eyes on your goal. Good luck!

You're right that he shouldn't count on getting in with the URM card, but I know from personal experiences as have many others, that the bar is set MUCH MUCH lower for URMS. Especially as a Cherokee? Talk about auto admit. Maybe he won't get into Harvard Med, but some "low tier" MD school would drool over him and post how they have a "real" minority!

 

[TGibson81]

Coming from an "ORM," I honestly have to say that you're the stereotypical URM who gets in for being completely unqualified and with a sense of entitlement (partied hard through college), and you have the nerve to say that you don't want to go DO?

LOL.

You say that you don't want to be favored or granted leniency due to your race, but you and I both know that you're going to put it down. You're just asking that question because you want to feel validated by others. But if you really want to know how to not be favored or granted leniency, don't put down you're black or Cherokee or whatever, that is the only way, but we all know like that's really gonna happen

In any case, I'm pretty sure that you'll get into any MD school you apply to because you're purportedly black and Cherokee which is like the golden ticket to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory, just make sure you get over a 23 on the MCAT and I'm confident (not even kidding) that you'll get in. Just make sure your interview about how your ancestors were persecuted or enslaved or whatever (kind of like mine that worked on the railroads in America for bare subsistence for the rich white man, but in our case it's ok because we're not as important ) is convincing enough because you want to get them emotional and really empathetic with all that you've suffered through... in college for instance.

Socialism and "equality and fairness" for the win!

Screw meritocracy as it's overrated.

Hmm, well thank you for your input, cynical/mocking as it may be, I appreciate all feedback.

Will i check the URM box? no sir, my concern comes when/if I get an interview and they see me, what to do then. I graduated HS with a 3.92 GPA, athletics, music, and magnet programs. I declined all historically black colleges and fraternities, even those offering scholarships- its not that I dont think that it's great for some people, just not for me. I believe that this just means I have to work even harder to redeem myself now. But I believe it can be done.
You are right, I partied way too hard in college, as well as maintained steady volunteer activities at a local nursing home and animal shelter, worked full-time and did alot of fund-raising for the organization I later worked for. I never considered med school at that point in my life, and did not (at that point) see the difference between an A and a C.

I am in my second year of post-bac now and have a post-bac gpa of somewhere around 3.6 with a bcmp gpa of 3.8 (total undergrad) but I dont know how long it will take to bring the total cum. gpa up to at least a 3.0.

I guess I should learn more about DO school before I say I wouldnt consider the option, truthfully, Im just not that familiar with it at this point.

 

[QofQuimica]

First, there is no "URM box" to check on AMCAS. You simply check off whatever racial/ethnic boxes apply to you, or you can also decline to report your race and ethnicity. If you do report your race/ethnicity, it is up to the school to decide how to use that information. In contrast, there *is* a box to check off on AMCAS for people who are economically disadvantaged, regardless of race.

Second, yes, you should definitely research DO schools more before writing them off sight unseen. The DO application process is much more friendly to someone in your situation than the MD app process is, mainly because AMCAS (the MD app) averages your new grades with your old grades. It takes a long, long time to budge your GPA that way. In contrast, AACOMAS (the DO app) will allow you to replace your previous low grades with new grades if you retake the courses you did poorly in the first time around. If you retake every course you got a C or lower in, you could probably bring your GPA up to a reasonable level within one year.

Third, it is absolutely *essential* that you spend some time getting clinical experience if you haven't already. You can think of clinical experience as being a med school prereq just like biology or physics is.

Fourth, different schools screen applicants in different ways. My school's adcom does look at the applicant's trends, and we do not have an official cutoff for GPA or MCAT. In a case like yours, a strong postbac showing can help offset a poor UG performance, even if your overall GPA is still kind of on the low side. But doing well in a postbac is not a guarantee that you will pass screening, and you are really starting far down in the hole with a 2.5 GPA. Also, you should be aware that there are some schools that will automatically reject you if your GPA is below a certain level such as 3.0; some of our state schools do this. (I'm from FL as well.) Other schools may have even higher GPA cutoffs that they may not necessarily publish.

Finally, being URM is not nearly as much of an advantage as many applicants think it is, and neither is being nontrad. Put simply, if your academic record is not competitive, then you will be rejected anyway, regardless of your age or race.

Since you are in Orlando, I highly recommend that you call the UCF medical school admissions office and make an appointment to speak with REL Larkin, who is the admissions director there. He will give you excellent advice in terms of helping you strengthen your app for med school. Best of luck to you.

 

[Velocity]

Okay folks, I am reading SO many contradicting stories on here I dont know what to believe.

There are no guarantees about the medical school admissions process. Candidates with perfect scores can receive rejections; candidates with low scores can receive acceptances. The chances of either happening are low, but they can and do happen. Don't take any advice as being the absolute truth.

Is it at all possible, if i do very well on the MCAT, that a school will look at my age, work experience, MCAT score, and recent trend in grades and consider granting me an interview? I feel very confident that, if granted an interview, I could be accepted. I can sell myself in person, but my GPA might hold me back.

If your application gets to a human reader who considers the whole package, I'd say that you'd have a good chance at that. There's a factor of luck in that occurring, of course.

On a side note, Ive seen many posts about Underrepresented in Med. I am multiracial of black, white, cherokee, and creole- but I dont want to be favored or granted leniency due to my race. Anyway to avoid that?

I think that's very honorable of you to say, but to be frank, you'd be an idiot to not use everything you have to your advantage. Everyone else is doing it, I assure you. That doesn't make it right, but someone in your position doesn't really have the luxury of not using everything you have.

I'm partly speaking out of commiseration. I've applied once before. I took the high road and didn't utilize my "special plays" because I wanted to make it in without them, on my own merit (or what I thought was my own merit). There's no guarantee that I would have made it in even if I'd utilized what extras I had, but what is guaranteed is that I made it in nowhere - didn't receive a single interview - and I lost three years on the process. I made good use of my time and grew a lot as a person, so I'm not entirely bitter about it. However when I reapply again this year you can bet that I won't be holding back. It seems like few to no people currently in medical school held back when they applied.

If you're holding back on the URM status because you're afraid that people will look down on you, as though you didn't work hard to get into medical school - forget it. As long as you look remotely like a minority group, it doesn't matter whether you put it down on your application or you don't. If you make it into medical school, the people who hate on URM's will hate on you regardless.

As far as I'm concerned, you have honor and integrity. Those are valuable traits for a doctor if you ask me. Don't let them get in the way of getting into medical school. It's very, very competitive, and you don't get bonus points for honor. If anything, honor has sadly become a handicap for people like us. Be ethical, but use everything at your disposal to your advantage. Everything.

 

[TGibson81]

First, there is no "URM box" to check on AMCAS. You simply check off whatever racial/ethnic boxes apply to you, or you can also decline to report your race and ethnicity. If you do report your race/ethnicity, it is up to the school to decide how to use that information. In contrast, there *is* a box to check off on AMCAS for people who are economically disadvantaged, regardless of race.

Second, yes, you should definitely research DO schools more before writing them off sight unseen. The DO application process is much more friendly to someone in your situation than the MD app process is, mainly because AMCAS (the MD app) averages your new grades with your old grades. It takes a long, long time to budge your GPA that way. In contrast, AACOMAS (the DO app) will allow you to replace your previous low grades with new grades if you retake the courses you did poorly in the first time around. If you retake every course you got a C or lower in, you could probably bring your GPA up to a reasonable level within one year.

Third, it is absolutely *essential* that you spend some time getting clinical experience if you haven't already. You can think of clinical experience as being a med school prereq just like biology or physics is.

Fourth, different schools screen applicants in different ways. My school's adcom does look at the applicant's trends, and we do not have an official cutoff for GPA or MCAT. In a case like yours, a strong postbac showing can help offset a poor UG performance, even if your overall GPA is still kind of on the low side. But doing well in a postbac is not a guarantee that you will pass screening, and you are really starting far down in the hole with a 2.5 GPA. Also, you should be aware that there are some schools that will automatically reject you if your GPA is below a certain level such as 3.0; some of our state schools do this. (I'm from FL as well.) Other schools may have even higher GPA cutoffs that they may not necessarily publish.

Finally, being URM is not nearly as much of an advantage as many applicants think it is, and neither is being nontrad. Put simply, if your academic record is not competitive, then you will be rejected anyway, regardless of your age or race.

Since you are in Orlando, I highly recommend that you call the UCF medical school admissions office and make an appointment to speak with REL Larkin, who is the admissions director there. He will give you excellent advice in terms of helping you strengthen your app for med school. Best of luck to you.

Thank you! Thats is fantastic and I will definitely speak with someone at UCF. I truly appreciate your thoughts.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I dont want to go DO or to the Carib

A few months ago I equated DO and Caribbean. I now know better. Now, my top choice school is osteopathic, even though I do not have any black marks on my record. 20 years ago my worst grades were "B" in Chem I and a "B" in Physics I, which I have now replaced with an "A" by retaking. So I would be as competitive at an MD school as anyone else.

But there is no reason to limit myself, and there is no reason for you to limit yourself, to allopathic schools. DO's are not second-tier. They not only can get the residencies reserved for DO's, but can also compete for the MD residence positions. One of my preferred school's graduates managed to get a Hopkins residency last year.

The reason that the DO schools are easier for people of our age is simply because of the grade replacement issue, not because they are less selective. The DO and MD schools are becoming more and more alike each year in selectivity.

Of course, the MD degree is more universally recognized and honored. People older that 40 (like me) remember the days when DO's were considered not much better than chiropractors. But that is not true anymore and in 20 years I doubt that it will matter at all.

 

[ShyRem]

We have gotten off track from the original intent of this thread, and I am ashamed to admit I have assisted in the hijacking. OP, my sincere apologies. If anyone has anything to add for the OP and their concern with applying to medical school, please add it. Further discussion regarding board exams can be found on other forum threads and are generally readily found on residency program websites.

SO. Any further help for the OP in their quest for admission to medical school?

Edit: the posts concerning applying to allo residencies with a DO have been split off into their own thread, which can be found here.

 

[Nasrudin]

Everyone brought their guns to this one.

MisterT. You need perspective. Med schools could fill their classes 10 times over with well qualified Asian students. There's just one problem. This isn't China. It's the god d@mn USofA. So here we all are together. Aggressive alpha dorks everyone one us. Together. For the rest of our careers. How bout we just support each other.

And then to the OP. "What will help them look past my poor Undergrad GPA?" Like the others said. Expand "them" to include DO schools. At least consider it.

You'll need 2 yrs of banging grades no matter what. Then you can rethink your options. Probably in that time much will have changed. I know did for me. And so your don't need to have everything figured out now.

Gun it for 2 years. And keep us posted. good luck.