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What would you choose...UPenn (scholarship) vs. Harvard?

Discussion in 'Pre-Dental' started by MSZ, Dec 2, 2005.

  1. MSZ

    MSZ MSZ
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    Their programs are very different and of course cost is a factor, but what is your opinion? Thanks for your help :).
     
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  2. wannabedr

    wannabedr Member
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    First of all, IMPRESSIVE! :)

    Is Penn offering a FULL scholarship? If so, GO!!!!

    They are both excellent schools.
     
  3. MSZ

    MSZ MSZ
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    Thank you! No, Penn is offering half tutition so the difference btwn Harvard and Penn is about 10-12 k a year.
     
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  4. monkey d. luffy

    monkey d. luffy Junior Member
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    Congrats. If you want to specialize, you should go to Harvard.
     
  5. greenday

    greenday Senior Member
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    I would choose Harvard if I were in your shoes MSZ.
    It's sad but also true. Just the Harvard name alone will open up a lot of doors for you.
    You go to the H school for prestige and experience.
    Unless you wanna do general dentistry and don't give a dime about school name, then go for the cheaper but also awesome school, PENN.
    Best of luck on your decision. Either one is a winner.
     
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  6. SMC2UCLA2_

    SMC2UCLA2_ Senior Member
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    Do you know if you want to specialize? Both are great schools if you do...but if you dont want to specialize for sure...or even if theres a good chance you wont specialize, I would go with UPENN. If i got into both schools I would prob take UPENN because I am pretty sure I wont specialize and I want to come out of school with the most clinical experience possible so that I can avoid associate positions and also avoid GPR.

    At the same time, im sure you can get whatever you put in. If you go to Harvard and know you want to go into GP then im sure you can put in that extra effort to see it done right. Let us know what you decide on!

    Personally my decision will come down to where my brother gets into to undergrad.

    Oops, forgot to take the scholarship into consideration. Im real big on personal finance. If you take the 12k a year you save...and invest it at 9 percent (s&p index fund) , then by the time you graduate this 48k savings will be worth $54,840. If you never add another penny to this money and let it accumulate interest at 9% for another 20 years then it will be worth $307,000. My brother averages 17% a year so if you know someone...or if you opt for a good value fund by a top manager, then the numberes would be (assuming 15%) 60,000 at the end of dental school and 981,992 20 years after graduation (assuming no addition).


    I assure you these calculations are right. Future value calculations rule! Take finance into consideration because time is fleeting. Time= money. Dont waste either!
     
  7. Rezdawg

    Rezdawg 1K Member
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    Given the situation, I would go to PENN.

    If you know that you want to specialize, 100%, then go to Harvard. If you think there may be a chance that you'd want to go into general dentistry, then take that scholarship at PENN...and if you decide you want to specialize later, then PENN will still give you a good shot at doing that as well.
     
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  8. duh?

    duh? Senior Member
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    I agree with Rezdawg and SMC2UCLA2.
     
  9. TimR

    TimR Senior Member
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    Harvard would be epic. That would be hard to pass up. 1 out of 35. C'mon. Money won't be a huge issue for you 10-15 years down the road if you are pulling 500K a year.
     
  10. SMC2UCLA2_

    SMC2UCLA2_ Senior Member
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    I know its hard to imagine but Harvard really wont open up many more doors than UPENN. If you want to go back and get an MBA later in life...u have a great shot at UPENN...a phenomenal MBA...and you will even have an excellent chance of getting into Harvard MBA. For specialties...same thing. You can get into great programs from either. Do you really want to lost near 1 million in the long run for a name? I would if it was a toss up between Harvard and say Loma Linda (no offense). But between the top 4 or 5 schools. Come on now.
     
  11. pibozh

    pibozh Member
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    Wow..impressing...I am amazed by your vision about future :D
     
  12. greenday

    greenday Senior Member
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    SMC2UCLA2UPENN,
    I doubt many people would go back and get an MBA. Even if they really wanted to be on the Apprentice, they would probably have equally good chance of getting into Warton from Harvard than applying from Upenn.

    Historically speaking, Harvard does way better in matching specialties. That's one of the door openning effect from the big H.

    Speaking of losing 1 million in the long run, the 1 million wouldn't be as much because of inflation. We all have taken personal finance. IRA would give you a 20 mil as well if you do it yearly until 55, but does that mean you should quit dental school and borrow 2000$ from your parents every year? Money shouldnt be an issue, especially when it's only 40k difference. If you really wanna bank on personal finance, go to UW or MCG. They'll probably give you 5 mil in 20 years.
     
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  13. PickMe

    PickMe Senior Member
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    Penn, for sure. Penn's stats are pretty high for specialty too, and given the fact that you are 16/116 to get a scholarship, you have a pretty good shot at being toward the top of the class! Plus the scholarship, that is a HUGE honor. Besides, I'll be there too! haha :D
     
  14. drhobie7

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    save the $. easy choice.
     
  15. Rezdawg

    Rezdawg 1K Member
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    Thats not because of the Harvard name...its because they prepare their students for the boards (thus the 92 or so average) and they dont rank (Meaning student #5 is equal to student #30). Therefore, getting into a specialty program is made easy as a result of their system, not because of their name.

    Like I stated, if the original poster knows that he/she wants to specialize for sure, without a doubt, then Harvard is the way to go. Otherwise, UPENN will be a money saver while permitting the student to go either into general practice upon graduation or into a specialty program.
     
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  16. SMC2UCLA2_

    SMC2UCLA2_ Senior Member
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    Well the question didnt involve UW or MCG. UW takes like 90+% state residents so thats out of the picture for most people. Im not quite sure what MCG is so i wont comment.

    Lets stick to this quys question. Both are great schools and he has a scholarship at UPENN. He can save alot of money in the long run here and were are not talking about dropping out of dental school to fill your IRA (thats what moonlighting is for! JK!). We are talking about the tangible money that he WILL infact save by attending the prestigious, illustrious UPENN.

    Also i think people put way too much emphasis on the school getting you into the speciality. Is it just me or does anyone else feel they will have no problem getting into the speciality they want if they work hard enough?
     
  17. greenday

    greenday Senior Member
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    Haha,
    seems like it's either 40k or a Harvard diploma, great clinical training or perfect specialty matching rate.
    Very touch call, and it's up to MSZ now where he truly feels comfortable at. (I bet he has some idea already)
    What makes me feel good though, is that unless I get a better offer, I will be attending the prestigious, illustrious UPENN.
     
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  18. luder98

    luder98 Senior Member
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    What about UConn? It's one of the top 3 clinical schools and should give you good shots for specialty as well. And it's a public school.

    In response to the poster that would pick Harvard over LLU in a heart beat, I believe LLU is also one of the top three clinical schools. And offers quite a variety of specialty too. If you pick by the name, then that's different. Just my opinion.
     
  19. Rezdawg

    Rezdawg 1K Member
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    There is a clinical school ranking guide?
     
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  20. Chris125

    Chris125 Member
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    One factor to take into consideration is that children of Harvard alumni are able to get into any of the other Harvard programs very easily. To be accepted at Harvard undergrad, for example, you quite nearly have to be valedictorian and score 1600 on your SATs. However, if a parent went there you can get in with reasonably attainable scores.
     
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  21. duh?

    duh? Senior Member
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  22. SMC2UCLA2_

    SMC2UCLA2_ Senior Member
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    :laugh: Haha, well i hope to see you there! Assuming I get in but I just applied so it should take a while to find out. Hmm...come to think of it there needs to be space available for me.

    Its a NO BRAINER...go to Harvard! :smuggrin:
     
  23. EyeAmCommi

    EyeAmCommi Los Angeles Smog
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    You have to remember that even perfect SATs and perfect GPAs will not guarantee you a seat at Harvard or any other private school. That's when having your "mommy" might come in handy.

    But I don't think you should go to Harvard because your kids will have a better chance at going there for their undergrad. I think it's a plus, but not a decision maker.
     
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  24. TimR

    TimR Senior Member
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    is this guy serious? where did this top3 clinical school list come from? nice try
     
  25. swanlake

    swanlake Member
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    Hum....It's a very tough call. Each school has its cons/pros.

    The huge difference is that if you go to UPenn, you will have more laboratory and clinical experiences. UPenn starts clinical experiences from the end of freshmen year. However, for Harvard, you don't touch any instrument until the third year. It is indeed true that the name "Harvard" will help you to match your specialty choice.

    In my local area, I have two Harvard graduate dentists whom I'm very familiar with. One went to Harvard dental school as an undergraduate and the other attended Harvard graduate program. It's very rare to find a Harvard graduate general dentist. She told me that at some point while she was in school, he realized that she didn't want to specialize and just wanted to open her practice because of his financial reasons. she confessed that she had a hard time in the beginning because of lack of laboratory and clinical experiences. The reason you don't touch any instruments at Harvard until the third year is that the school expects you to specialize. That's why you only get the bare minimum of laboratory and clinical experiences that you need for general dentistry.
    The other dentist who went to Harvard as a graduate program, he is very satisfied that he was trained at Harvard. He went to UConn for his undergraduate dental school. He told me that since he was clinicially well trained at UConn and plus he was trained at Harvard, he had a smooth transition when he opened his practice. Also, he admited that his "Harvard" name brand helped him out too. Whether you went to Harvard as an undergraduate or a graduate, you will still have a diploma from Harvard that you can hang on your wall.
    Thus, I feel like attending a school where you get good clinical experiences as an undergraduate, and then pursuing a Harvard graduate program will be ideal to me.

    However, the bottom line is....since you won a dean's scholarship, it means that you are one of the best studentst in UPenn class of 2010. Although UPenn's specialty matching rate is not as high as Harvard, as a top student at UPenn, you will get into any specialty program you want and You save $$$$$$.

    It really is your Choice~~!!!! :thumbup: :luck: :thumbup:
     
  26. greenday

    greenday Senior Member
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    He probably meant part II score. Uconn has a good track record on the boards. Part II doesnot equate real clinical experience, but it does seem Uconn graduates have above average clinical skill set.
     
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  27. skyhawk

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    HARVARD>..GOOD GOD MAN HARDARD..talk to Alumi thell tell you HARVARD
     
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  28. Crest

    Crest Member
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    Flip a coin! :idea:
     
  29. MSZ

    MSZ MSZ
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    Wow, thank you for all of your responses. I'm still confused, but all of you have helped a lot. I do want to specialize and I've known this for awhile. Ultimately I would like to save money and if I have a high chance of getting into orthodontics coming from Penn, then that's a plus for Penn. On the other hand, I find the PBL learning attractive as well as the P/F system and taking classes with medical students. I want to graduate a strong clinician even if I do specialize. I don't know, but all I can tell you is I have to decide by Dec. 21st according to Penn. Not too much time which isn't very fun. Thanks again.

    Btw, I'm a "she" not a "he" (minor detail) :)
     
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  30. Yellow Snow

    Yellow Snow Senior Member
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    Cost of living in Philly is about half that of Boston. Gotta consider that in the cost.
     
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  31. Unemployed

    Unemployed Senior Member
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    Does your cousin go to Temple Med?
     
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  32. MSZ

    MSZ MSZ
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    No, I don't have a cousin that goes to Temple med.
     
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  33. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    MSZ: I saw the word "orthodontics" in one of your posts. I am a graduate of Buffalo and I just got into ortho this week after my third try. You can read the "And you matched at" thread over on the dental residency board. Yes I worked hard in my dental school for a 90+ board and top 10 rank. But, If I had to do dental school all over again knowing that I wanted to do ortho, I would choose either Harvard or UConn. Both schools give you the opportunity to do very well on the Part I boards and they don't give you a class rank. Penn assigns a rank to their top 10, and then everyone else doesn't get a rank - how sucky is that. Even between Harvard vs. UConn, I would go with Harvard. The usually match all their applicants to ortho. If you don't match, when you reapply, you still have that awesome board score and the Harvard name going around with you, and that can be a big deal to some of these programs - they like saying "we have a resident here from Harvard."

    Nothing is 100%. I have met an ortho from Harvard who didn't get in senior year (but got in the second time), and I have met an orthodontist from Penn who didn't get in until the third try. But why not try to give yourself every advantage possible?
     
  34. dexadental

    dexadental 1K Member
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    I'm not sure what I'd choose, a very tough decision...I had an orthodontist who went to Harvard and seems to be doing well, but really, Penn will set you up for a nice life also...and pay for it...so ultimately I'd choose Penn.
     
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  35. kiggar4l2000

    kiggar4l2000 Member
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    I am officially jealous. Good job on your achievement. I'll personally choose UPENN (if you don't mind living in Pennsylvania..ghetooass town) b/c Harvard is pretty much bad for anyone who wants to PRACTICE dentistry as opposed to those who want to TEACH dentistry.
     
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  36. dat_student

    dat_student Junior Member
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    Given the two options: you should choose Harvard. It has the highest matching rate.

    Rankings based on matching rate:
    #1 Harvard 88%
    #2 UCLA 50-75%
    #3 UCONN ~40%
    #4 Columbia (~30%) ~ UPENN (~30%) ~ UCSF



     
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  37. SuperTrooper

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    :eek: x 100,000,000,000 !!!!

    Pay attention to this post friends!! Here, we have somebody who graduated from one of the most solid state dental schools (buffalo) recommending Harvard and UConn. And this person knows what she's talking about. This is a pretty interesting case to consider for all those who say it doesn't matter where you go to dental school when interested in applying to specialties (which is 95% of people on this site).

    P.S. I agree about Penn, they rank their top 10, that's b.s. in my opinion.
     
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  38. TimR

    TimR Senior Member
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    DaT-Student comes with the facts..... harvard.... easy choice.
     
  39. dat_student

    dat_student Junior Member
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    I also believe "NAME" matters. Everybody knows each dental school's matching rate.
     
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  40. monkey d. luffy

    monkey d. luffy Junior Member
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    UConn name is better than UCLA?
     
  41. dat_student

    dat_student Junior Member
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    TimR, seriously, can we be friends? We'll both be dentists some day. Plz no more personal attacks. ok? Thanks so much. If it's a yes I'll give you all the numbers in the world ! ;)
     
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  42. SuperTrooper

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    A lot of people in this thread have said harvard is the way to go. But previous threads like this in the Dental and Dental Residency Forum always brings up jaded junior or senior dental students who say the school you go to doesn't matter. In particular, most of the moderators and the oral surgery residents say the same thing too. These people supposedly (spl?) carry more weight that what pre-dents know, or at least that's what they say and then they seem to have the moral/experience authority over the discussion.

    Of course, griffin is just one example, like she suggested at the end of her post. But still, I think that people who share their experiences of failure like her (3 times for ortho!! :eek: ) are few and far between on SDN. Her experience carries a lot of weight in my mind. Obviously the oral surgery residents on SDN are gonna say the school doesn't matter because they all happened to match strait outta dental school. And all the other junior and senior dental students, well, they don't really know jack about this cause they haven't applied to specialties yet. Of course they'd want to stick up for their schools.

    P.S. Congrats Griffin! :) I've been following your progress for a long time here on SDN. I would never have had the strength to apply three times. You've got a lot to be proud of. And Vanderbilt is an amazing school!!
     
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  43. swanlake

    swanlake Member
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    SDNers are paying TOO MUCH attention on specialty matching rate.

    Yes, It's obvious that Harvard has the unbelievably high matching rate. However, you guys are missing one important point. Because Harvard expects and encourages you to specialize, you don't get to touch any instruments nor laboratory work until the third year. For specialists, you don't need laboratory works as much as general dentists. So, to some extent Harvard students don't get to choose general dentistry even if they want to because they are not well-prepared.

    NOT ALL dental students want to specialize. On the other hand, UPenn and other dental schools prepare you to be good practitioners. The reason that other school's matching rate is not as high as Harvard is other schools do not FORCE you to specialize like Harvard DOES!!!!

    A lot of students CHOOSE NOT TO specialize not because they are not smart enough. That's why the matching rate is lower than Harvard.

    The bottom line is if you are smart enough, no matter where you end up you will be an Orthodontist. The fact that you received a dean's scholarship, you have proved yourself that you are the one of the most shining stars at UPenn~!!!! I personally don't think that you will have no problem getting into your 1st choice specialty field. Go to Harvard graduate program. So that you could have both UPenn and Harvard diploma when you open your practice.

    P.S.> Another thing is going from the same undergraduate school to graduate school is extremely hard. Although Harvard has the highest specialty matching rate, it's extremly hard for Harvard undergraduate dental students to be accepted at Harvard graduate program. (Something to think about).
    I'm not sure about your financial situation. You mentioned that about 10K per year difference. So, for 4 years, we are talking about 40K difference plus the living expenses at Boston is about twice expensive compare to Phildelphia. So, I think we are talking about 80k difference plus interest on your loan, which chould easily end up 100k difference or more. ( :thumbdown: )
     
  44. gryffindor

    Dentist 10+ Year Member

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    No, this is where pre-dents get confused about the name. Once you are in private practice, no one cares where you went to school. Patients don't give a squat. I am a Buffalo grad working in NYC - EVERYONE here, patients & dentists, automatically assumes I went to NYU and it's not until I say "Umm, no, I didn't" that my school ever comes up. And my patients have no clue if I graduated in the top 10 or if I barely graduated. Dentists I interview with don't even bother looking at which school I went to or what my rank was on my resume - they just want to know if I am licensed and what procedures I can do.

    Thank you SuperTrooper for your kind words!

    Harvard and UPenn both have good "names" - but I really think the ranking of the top 10/ignoring everyone else is a sucky system at Penn. Better off at Harvard where no one gets a rank. Of course, this discussion only applied if you are going to specialize. If you want to do General Practice, it doesn't matter which school you attend - go to the school that will save you the money because like I said above, no one gives a crap about what dental school you attended when they are having a toothache.
     
  45. SuperTrooper

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    This is definitely not true. People with 95+ Part I board scores and ranks in the top 10 get rejected for ortho all the time. Also, how do you know if you're smart enough?

    Yes, on day one of dental school. Dental school is way different from college; as college is way different than from high school.

    This has nothing with getting a "harvard" degree. It's about the fact that some schools facilitate getting into specialties through their non-competetive environments.
     
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  46. joooj86

    joooj86 Senior Member
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    Msz which undergraduate school do you go to in illinois. thanks
     
  47. eddiemoe

    eddiemoe Membership Revoked
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    I would choose Harvard hands down. Thats the easiest question I have seen posted on here!
     
  48. Rezdawg

    Rezdawg 1K Member
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    The question I have is, how do you know you want to specialize for sure?? Until you pick up an instrument and get involved, you dont know 100%. Maybe 95%. What happens if you choose Harvard and decide you prefer going straight out and working instead of spending an additional 3 years getting trained? Well, then you are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Harvard will not prepare you at all for general dentistry. PENN will give you your options.
     
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  49. swanlake

    swanlake Member
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    Griffin04

    I think you have a good point.
    I mentioned about schools just in case MSZ is interested in schools name brand. My dentist went to Columbia, and she always have told me that "it doesn't matter where you go. None of my patients ask me which school I went to." She actually encourages me to go to my state school, so that I could save my $$$$ and use it toward when I open my practice.
    Thus, I absolutely agree with you griffin04. SAVE $$$$$$$$$$$$$
     
  50. eddiemoe

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    Hey I agree completely! It does not matter where you go. However, I would take Harvard for the name.

    With having that name behind you, you would see how easier things would come in life.

    It was the same with applying to dental school. The kids who went to the community colleges have had a much harder time gaining admittance while the people from the larger institutions have had more ease with gettin the big interviews and with admission.

    Just the way it is. Its like that in every aspect of life.
     

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