What would you do if you were looking for a job right now in COVID-19 world?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Harry3990

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
146
Reaction score
95
Just a hypothetical if people feel like indulging. Say you are ending post-doc in a few months and will hopefully be newly licensed at that time or shortly after. How do you think you would approach job searching? Would you be seeking specialized positions and areas of interest in line with your experience as you had planned? Would you be widening your net and trying to be a lot more flexible given the current economy and state of the world? Would you be considering telehealth only positions even though this had never crossed your mind before CoronaWorld? Would you try to pivot completely into something novel or industry related in business/startup/consulting/tech/telehealth?

What are people's thoughts about going through this type of early career transition in the current job climate?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Well, I'm a bastard so I'd look around my area and identify which practices or hospitals have a bunch of psychologists 60+. Then it's just a waiting game. Maybe some google alerts. I know, it's not nice.

By the end of this thing, psychology is gonna be busy as hell. Whatever the figure is, psychiatry is highly skewed towards being older. As is psychology, IIRC. There are no a lot of pills FDA approved for grief. Lots of people losing family members. Lots of families ending in divorce. Lots of family issues. Lots of parents learning that their kids' school performances are unusual. Lots of economic issues with resulting affective disorders and suicide. Lots of survivors having severe respiratory residuals. Lots of people attempting to get financial security through medicolegal means. Lots of crime.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
There’s so much uncertainty that it’s hard to tell at this point. There’s still demand for psychologists in times like these, but I’ve noticed a slowdown/stopping of new calls in my private practice in the past 2-3 weeks since the shelter-in-place, although that’s just anecdotal. Also, increased need doesn’t necessarily translate to increased funding/jobs in community mental health or other employers.

One way to see what’s happening NOW is to check indeed.com for newly-posted psychologist positions in your area in the next month or two to see who’s trying to hire right now in the midst of this. You may not need to pivot completely, but just take a look and see what’s out there to get a sense of how this might be affecting hiring, etc. Things are in unprecedented territory, so I can understand folks’ anxiety about the job market if they are completing postdocs and/or contracts are ending soon. Folks do have the unemployment option if nothing materializes by then, which can help you stay afloat as you job search between postdoc and the next employment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Right now (in the VA) things seem to be slower in terms of routine appts, but crisis calls etc are apparently up. I think the demand will be huge after this is over enough that people feel safe to leave their houses and don't have to worry about childcare etc. To put it in psych terms, I think right now everyone is just in Distress Tolerance mode.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Well, I'm a bastard so I'd look around my area and identify which practices or hospitals have a bunch of psychologists 60+. Then it's just a waiting game. Maybe some google alerts. I know, it's not nice.

By the end of this thing, psychology is gonna be busy as hell. Whatever the figure is, psychiatry is highly skewed towards being older. As is psychology, IIRC. There are no a lot of pills FDA approved for grief. Lots of people losing family members. Lots of families ending in divorce. Lots of family issues. Lots of parents learning that their kids' school performances are unusual. Lots of economic issues with resulting affective disorders and suicide. Lots of survivors having severe respiratory residuals. Lots of people attempting to get financial security through medicolegal means. Lots of crime.

May have fewer 60+ year olds who need dementia evals when this is said and done...
 
Lots of people attempting to get financial security through medicolegal means.
I just grabbed my biz mail and there was yet another patient letter about filing for SSDI and using me as a reference? They clearly did not read ANY of my documentation.

Minor MVA from 3yrs with fully resolved cog symptoms. The current reported symptoms are right out of a bad 90s Lifetime movie of the week.

I understand many ppl are in tough positions and some are in untenable positions, but I'm not going to support fraud. Thankfully, my documentation is clear and unambiguous.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
May have fewer 60+ year olds who need dementia evals when this is said and done...

I was busy as hell in 2008.

Lots of IM and psychiatry referrals asking something like, "Does this individual's depressive disorder or weird behavior represent some onset of dementia?". Nope. Homeskillet just lost like 50% of his retirement account and takes that as a narcissistic injury, and doesn't want to admit to the spouse that their lifestyle is about to change. Even weirder was the preference to commit suicide over not leaving something in the will for the adult kids.

Lots of hospital consults that were basically "this geriatric person is broke, and about to get thrown out on the street. If SOMEONE (wink wink wink) could give this nice old person a dementia diagnosis, we could send them to a nursing home."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Fair. Though, I now want to see you work homeskillet into a report. It's been ages since I've heard that one.

During neuroanatomy lecture series at the med school, one of the lecturers was pointing at a slide, and said, "What's this structure? .... Come on... It's not your auntus, it's your uncus!". More than 10 years later, that dad joke stuck. Guess there's something about informal communication that sticks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
During neuroanatomy lecture series at the med school, one of the lecturers was pointing at a slide, and said, "What's this structure? .... Come on... It's not your auntus, it's your uncus!". More than 10 years later, that dad joke stuck. Guess there's something about informal communication that sticks.


Oohh, I'm sure there's a great uncal/uncle herniation joke somewhere just waiting to be made.
 
Similar question to the OP, does anyone want to speculate about how all this might affect the job market for people finishing postdoc next year? Or is it way too early to even speculate?
 
  • Hmm
Reactions: 1 user
Similar question to the OP, does anyone want to speculate about how all this might affect the job market for people finishing postdoc next year? Or is it way too early to even speculate?

If you die from COVD-19, your prospects are significantly worse than previously assumed. Beyond that, it really depends on if we are falling into a recession or not.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Fair. Though, I now want to see you work homeskillet into a report. It's been ages since I've heard that one.
Sometimes I work in phrases from favorite lyrics if they fit the situation. I've also referenced various phrasing from classic literature...kudos to any providers who catch them.
 
Peer-reviewed citation please?

I have a paper currently in review on this very topic. We are hoping to further analyze whether career earnings of dead psychologists outstrip those with a high debt load from certain programs. I am hoping to publish in the journal of SDN sometime in early May.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Just a hypothetical if people feel like indulging. Say you are ending post-doc in a few months and will hopefully be newly licensed at that time or shortly after. How do you think you would approach job searching? Would you be seeking specialized positions and areas of interest in line with your experience as you had planned? Would you be widening your net and trying to be a lot more flexible given the current economy and state of the world? Would you be considering telehealth only positions even though this had never crossed your mind before CoronaWorld? Would you try to pivot completely into something novel or industry related in business/startup/consulting/tech/telehealth?

What are people's thoughts about going through this type of early career transition in the current job climate?
Whatever you do, don't cough or spike a fever.
 
We are hiring right now. We are using video interviews and virtual tours. The virtual tour is where our admissions person walks around our various facilities with a smartphone. haven't hired anyone with this method alone yet so not sure how it works in the long run. :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Seems like TT academic jobs will be scarce next cycle. It seems like everyone is on a chill.

I’m very curious to see what the fall enrollment numbers will be for both new students and returning students. I’m predicting that number will forecast the strength/weakness of the following cycle.
 
Yeah, already historically decreasing enrollment coupled with the uncertainty of next year does not bode well for some colleges. There was already a risk of some colleges going under prior to covid. This could hasten that, flooding the market with academics. Good time to already be tenured at a larger institution.
 
Yeah, already historically decreasing enrollment coupled with the uncertainty of next year does not bode well for some colleges. There was already a risk of some colleges going under prior to covid. This could hasten that, flooding the market with academics. Good time to already be tenured at a larger institution.

Yes, so far, a lot of fear about Fall 2020 enrollments. I can’t remember where I saw it, but there was a survey of high school seniors that suggested that an increasing number planned to stay close to home and attend community colleges rather than travel far for freshman year; it was a small sample but they thought it hinted at some of the changes to come.

I think adjuncting will become even more competitive because some classes might not even run with low enrollments, and there are a lot of hiring freezes on the horizon, I suspect. Those without the luxury of tenure will be further disadvantaged. I applied for a full time salaried adjunct position months ago (still waiting to hear back) but given the circumstances, wouldn’t be surprised if the college I applied to does away with the position completely and/or hires a part-time adjunct instead. I’m not holding my breath, at any rate.

Never thought I’d be jobless in the middle of a global crisis, but seems that that’s where I’ll be very soon. It already takes about 4-6 months to find a job in my area under “normal” conditions, so I am feeling for all of the folks in our field who don’t have job security and/or have contracts ending in the midst of this.
 
This crisis should just further hit home the idea that you should be avoiding large sums of debt in graduate school. The pandemic is MUCH easier to ride out when you don't have a large loan payment to figure out, and can have plenty of liquidable assets on the ready also because you didn't have huge student loan debt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This crisis should just further hit home the idea that you should be avoiding large sums of debt in graduate school. The pandemic is MUCH easier to ride out when you don't have a large loan payment to figure out, and can have plenty of liquidable assets on the ready also because you didn't have huge student loan debt.


But the government has suspended interest on student loans during the pandemic. They wouldn't let people go broke and suffer because they owe the government money and cannot work. Surely it is okay to take out enough loans for nice house, we have a stable genius for president who will help us. Now if you will excuse me, I need to finish my Cloroxtini so I don't get sick.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
At my institution our dept is the largest in the College in terms of butts in seats, so that helps. We are a smaller school with a lot of commuter and local folks. We aren't as worried. Especially the faculty who got ahead of the curve in online teaching prior to this. We have been asked to carry our normal adjunct load moving forward (some contacts signed, but not all, yet - so we will see).
 
But the government has suspended interest on student loans during the pandemic. They wouldn't let people go broke and suffer because they owe the government money and cannot work. Surely it is okay to take out enough loans for nice house, we have a stable genius for president who will help us. How if you will excuse me, I need to finish my Cloroxtini so I don't get sick.

Make sure you use some Lemon scented Lysol to add in some citrus. It's got Vitamin C, right?
 
2 part Clorox
1 Part Cherry cough syrup
1 part Lemon Lysol
1 Tide Pod garnish

And there you have a lovely cocktail that matches your garish red hat. Maybe Trump can "naturally select" himself out of re-election this fall.

C'mon you can't blame Trump for all the problems in the U.S. right now...he already said that he takes no responsibility. This is all your state governor's fault. Unless they are successful. Then he coached them through the whole way.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 2 users
We are hiring right now. We are using video interviews and virtual tours. The virtual tour is where our admissions person walks around our various facilities with a smartphone. haven't hired anyone with this method alone yet so not sure how it works in the long run. :D

I have heard of a few health systems and hospitals having hiring freezes right now due to lost revenue, so that is reassuring to hear that you all are still able to hire right now.
 
Unfortunately I’m nearing the end of fellowship and on the job hunt in a highly impacted area. Nothing on the horizon for the time being, sadly. Was aiming for hospital neuro positions, may have to consider figuring out some kind of telehealth outpatient psychotherapy gig.
 
I can’t remember where I saw it, but there was a survey of high school seniors that suggested that an increasing number planned to stay close to home and attend community colleges rather than travel far for freshman year; it was a small sample but they thought it hinted at some of the changes to come.
Anecdotally, it seems like commuter schools will be less vulnerable to the drop in enrollments as long as in-person teaching resumes.
 
I will revise my opinion: I'd look for places that have very old psychologists who are likely going to delay their retirement, but can't keep up with work output.
 
very old psychologists who are likely going to delay their retirement, but can't keep up with work output.

Slightly unrelated: is this a common phenomenon? ie people staying on and working well past when they should have stopped and also when they could have? reason I ask is...my predecessor was an 85 year old guy, really nice, but was never going to retire (even though he had 40 years with the state and a full pension). ultimately (and sadly, albeit not for me since I got his job), he had to because of serious medical conditions, but I know there was concern that had he stayed he would have stayed forever, and because of our union, he would likely never be able to be "let go." Should I prepare myself for this when I too am 80? (I have other areas of my life besides work, so maybe that won't be me...but I'm nervous it will be).
 
Slightly unrelated: is this a common phenomenon? ie people staying on and working well past when they should have stopped and also when they could have? reason I ask is...my predecessor was an 85 year old guy, really nice, but was never going to retire (even though he had 40 years with the state and a full pension). ultimately (and sadly, albeit not for me since I got his job), he had to because of serious medical conditions, but I know there was concern that had he stayed he would have stayed forever, and because of our union, he would likely never be able to be "let go." Should I prepare myself for this when I too am 80? (I have other areas of my life besides work, so maybe that won't be me...but I'm nervous it will be).


That depends on who you are and what you deem important. I grew up in a family that continued working well into retirement years. I personally do not plan to retire fully and will likely just transition from the current hustle to a private practice. I don't think I will work very hard and will take time to enjoy life. However, I am the type that prefers to be a little busy all the time. I am miserable when I have no work to do and when I work over 55-60 hours. 20-40 hrs/wk is a my sweet spot so that I have time for hobbies, family, personal chores, etc. I will likely gradually cutback as I get older and develop more financial security, but this is honestly such an easy job to keep doing well into my 70s. I wouldn't mind a practice by the beach in a retirement community.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
That depends on who you are and what you deem important. I grew up in a family that continued working well into retirement years. I personally not plan to retire fully and will likely just transition from the current hustle to a private practice. I don't think I will work very hard and will take time to enjoy life. However, I am the type that prefers to be a little busy all the time. I am miserable when I have no work to do and when I work over 55-60 hours. 20-40 hrs/wk is a my sweet spot so that I have time for hobbies, family, personal chores, etc. I will likely gradually cutback as I get older and develop more financial security, but this is honestly such an easy job to keep doing well into my 70s. I wouldn't mind a practice by the beach in a retirement community.
I'm grateful to work in a field where continued part time work (or full time) is quite feasible into the 70s/80s given the lack of physical demands. Of course I don't have to work after 'retirement age' (whatever that happens to be when I'm due)...but it's really nice to have the option. "Tele-health" work will almost certainly be of the "virtual reality" type by that time.
 
I will revise my opinion: I'd look for places that have very old psychologists who are likely going to delay their retirement, but can't keep up with work output.

The switch to telehealth and all things tech seems to be exacerbating the can't keep up issue and frustration from higher ups and the highest ups. I see a mass voluntary and partially-forced retirement wave for these folks when things recover and stabilize in the system and economy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Slightly unrelated: is this a common phenomenon? ie people staying on and working well past when they should have stopped and also when they could have? reason I ask is...my predecessor was an 85 year old guy, really nice, but was never going to retire (even though he had 40 years with the state and a full pension). ultimately (and sadly, albeit not for me since I got his job), he had to because of serious medical conditions, but I know there was concern that had he stayed he would have stayed forever, and because of our union, he would likely never be able to be "let go." Should I prepare myself for this when I too am 80? (I have other areas of my life besides work, so maybe that won't be me...but I'm nervous it will be).

You should prepare for retirement like a reasonable person. Keep a budget. Don't create a lifestyle that prevents you from saving for retirement. Plan for disasters. Take care of your health. Buy disability insurance. Plan to exit the field eventually.

I have been interested in the ages of practicing psychologists since grad school. The empirical data seems to suggest that there are many psychologists who remain in practice well after 65.

Informally, the provided explanations seem to be categorized into such broad explanations as:

1) It is a sedentary job that allows working past the usual age of retirement.
2) Due to training requirements, psychologists enter into the professional workforce at a later age. Therefore, they need to work longer.
3) They love the field, so why stop?

My criticisms of these rationales

1) Most cognitive tests including IQ and memory tests show normal age related decline, even in healthy people. Consequently, there is likely a point in which the demands of professional activities exceed the cognitive abilities of an aging psychologist. Therefore, the physical demands explanation is unreasonable.
2) Working at an advanced age is not always seen in professions with similar or greater lengths of training. Therefore, this explanation may reflect insufficient retirement savings, mediated by such factors as poor pay, or poor financial planning.
3) The professional activity occurring almost exclusively in a money making setting seems to contradict a pure enjoyment explanation. One would expect to see a greater participation in charitable or research consulting activities, if enjoyment were the sole factor.


What I believe:

The field had an incredible decline in income from about 1987- present. This was largely due to CMS not increasing the valuation of psychologists work in step with inflation. There were likely insufficient lobbying efforts, which may have been predicated by 1960s "fight the power, Carl Rogers says we are not in healthcare, oh wait, CMS says they're not going to pay us for non-healthcare! Never-mind, we're healthcare.' BS). Like many people, older psychologists did not properly save for retirement in a realistic manner. So staying in the profession past 65 became increasingly commonplace. IN more structured employment settings as tenured professorships, older psychologists are preventing younger psychologists from enjoying the same professional trajectory they enjoyed, by holding a spot. They get to say they've been in practice for 35 years. They can say that the ECPs aren't as advanced in their knowledge as they were, so increase training requirements. Never mind that they weren't subjected to those requirements, and their knowledge base was at a lower level when they went into practice. They can hire some post docs, and make money off them. They can hire some ECPs and pay them financially exploitative rates because the APA does not enforce that section of the ethics code. And they can rationalize it by saying really, it's the incredible number of ECPs entering that is the cause of their low income. It's not their employment practices, or the training policies they voted for.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
You should prepare for retirement like a reasonable person. Keep a budget. Don't create a lifestyle that prevents you from saving for retirement. Plan for disasters. Take care of your health. Buy disability insurance. Plan to exit the field eventually.

I have been interested in the ages of practicing psychologists since grad school. The empirical data seems to suggest that there are many psychologists who remain in practice well after 65.

Informally, the provided explanations seem to be categorized into such broad explanations as:

1) It is a sedentary job that allows working past the usual age of retirement.
2) Due to training requirements, psychologists enter into the professional workforce at a later age. Therefore, they need to work longer.
3) They love the field, so why stop?

My criticisms of these rationales

1) Most cognitive tests including IQ and memory tests show normal age related decline, even in healthy people. Consequently, there is likely a point in which the demands of professional activities exceed the cognitive abilities of an aging psychologist. Therefore, the physical demands explanation is unreasonable.
2) Working at an advanced age is not always seen in professions with similar or greater lengths of training. Therefore, this explanation may reflect insufficient retirement savings, mediated by such factors as poor pay, or poor financial planning.
3) The professional activity occurring almost exclusively in a money making setting seems to contradict a pure enjoyment explanation. One would expect to see a greater participation in charitable or research consulting activities, if enjoyment were the sole factor.


What I believe:

The field had an incredible decline in income from about 1987- present. This was largely due to CMS not increasing the valuation of psychologists work in step with inflation. There were likely insufficient lobbying efforts, which may have been predicated by 1960s "fight the power, Carl Rogers says we are not in healthcare, oh wait, CMS says they're not going to pay us for non-healthcare! Never-mind, we're healthcare.' BS). Like many people, older psychologists did not properly save for retirement in a realistic manner. So staying in the profession past 65 became increasingly commonplace. IN more structured employment settings as tenured professorships, older psychologists are preventing younger psychologists from enjoying the same professional trajectory they enjoyed, by holding a spot. They get to say they've been in practice for 35 years. They can say that the ECPs aren't as advanced in their knowledge as they were, so increase training requirements. Never mind that they weren't subjected to those requirements, and their knowledge base was at a lower level when they went into practice. They can hire some post docs, and make money off them. They can hire some ECPs and pay them financially exploitative rates because the APA does not enforce that section of the ethics code. And they can rationalize it by saying really, it's the incredible number of ECPs entering that is the cause of their low income. It's not their employment practices, or the training policies they voted for.


I definitely agree with your beliefs in macro trends from 1960's-present. I do question your criticisms partially in that IQ and ability is really variable in the field. Is a psychologist PhD from a top program in their 70s less sharp then a master's level new grad? A clinician that is a sleep deprived new parent? And on and on.

Physicians (though usually not surgeons) often work to similar ages. I know several physicians in their 70s.

In my personal experience, I have seen three types over 65 in the field:

1. The type A business owner that has the wealth and knowledge to bank roll (and often exploit) others
2. The person working full-time and trying to keep their head above water. Often seem jaded and/or miserable (likely poor retirement planning)
3. The part-timer that wants to remain active, but is not trying to work too hard. (Usually happier, sometimes trying to remain youthful)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My goal is to amass enough wealth and data I can retire as soon as possible and write papers at my leisure. Also write grants I can give away to other people to run as long as they promise I can play with the data when they're done.

Is that weird?
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 5 users
I definitely agree with your beliefs in macro trends from 1960's-present. I do question your criticisms partially in that IQ and ability is really variable in the field. Is a psychologist PhD from a top program in their 70s less sharp then a master's level new grad? A clinician that is a sleep deprived new parent? And on and on.

Physicians (though usually not surgeons) often work to similar ages. I know several physicians in their 70s.

In my personal experience, I have seen three types over 65 in the field:

1. The type A business owner that has the wealth and knowledge to bank roll (and often exploit) others
2. The person working full-time and trying to keep their head above water. Often seem jaded and/or miserable (likely poor retirement planning)
3. The part-timer that wants to remain active, but is not trying to work too hard. (Usually happier, sometimes trying to remain youthful)

Disclaimer: I am in a bad mood. And I like you. But not your musical tastes. Which are objectively wrong.

1) Personally, I don't find such a strong correlation between program and "sharpness". Maybe that's me. Totally not empirical. But the smartest person I've ever known is ABD. And the dumbest psychologist, doing the lowest level work I know of, went to a top 3 clinical psych phd.
2) I don't think that a psychologist parent should be practicing while sleep deprived. That's a stupid function of a US maternity/paternity leave and employment system. I gots opinion about that too.
3) There is absolutely an interaction between the cognitive reserve/brain reserve vs. cognitive decline axes. That doesn't indicate that the mean psychologists falls outside that intersection. Processing speed declines. I have many surgeon friends 60+. I still wouldn't trust them to perform the newest surgical procedure under a time limit on me. That's how cognition works. And why the age of animal planet's viewership is biphasic.
4) Type A is a BS construct invented by tobacco companies used to avoid cardiovascular correlations for cigarettes. Serious.
5) I disagree with conflating bankrolling and exploiting others. There are established ways to make someone a partner commonly found in medicine, finance, and law. There are also ethical ways to make money that do not exploit others. One can bankroll poker professionals. That's not exploiting anyone. It just comes with more risk. Risk that those psychologists are not taking on.
6) If a psychologist is 65+ and struggling to keep their head above water: they are a failure. Retirement is an interaction between savings/investments vs lifestyle. You and I could retire right now. Like in the next 5 minutes. We'd just have to drastically change our lifestyles. People who are unwilling to make changes in the face of their own objective limitations are pitiable. If the lean FIRE community can retire, anyone can if they accept their financial limitations.
7) Part timers are still working for money. The trying to remain youthful argument is a distraction. There is still a predominant financial incentive. I'd believe that line of reasoning if the person was working pro bono or writing stuff for free. And already engaging in the behavior with a much larger effect size for anti-aging stuff. Then again, a wise guy once said that he'd retire tomorrow if they quit paying him.


My goal is to amass enough wealth and data I can retire as soon as possible and write papers at my leisure. Also write grants I can give away to other people to run as long as they promise I can play with the data when they're done.

Is that weird?

PsyDr summer home would like to offer you a summer residency. There is no talking before coffee. Dinner is usually around 7pm.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Top