B
BlackPuma
if you suspect your child might be gay or lesbian?!
how would you guys go about dealing with it?
how would you guys go about dealing with it?
B
BlackPuma
why would it be tougher on her?
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She's a bit more conservative and generaly more turned off about homosexual lovemaking. Grandkids would be nice too.
She's certainly not anti-gay, but it would be hard if were someone close to her.
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Kids, I never had any kids. Just joking. For the ease of his life, societal acceptance I hope he is straight. But, I love him so much that I don't think it would have any serious impact, if he chose not to have that super alternative, massively promiscuous lifestyle.
B
BlackPuma
do you automatically assume that all homosexual s have a super alternative massively promiscous lifestyle?
I'm not at all attacking your beliefs...I'm just curious as to why you think homosexuals tend to have a massive promiscuous lifestyle? (of course, maybe i'm interpreting wrong) but isn't a massive promiscous lifestyle an individual thing rather than a sexual orientation issue?
B
BlackPuma
if your son or daughter was infertile? would you still want them to have grandkids?
I don't think your children plan on having homosexual lovemaking in front of you, will they? do your heterosexual children make out in front of you?
I'm just setting you up for the future...just a hypothetical "if"...
if your children were blind, would you love them any less because they can't see?
if your childrewn were deaf, would you love them any less because they can't hear..
if your children were born gay, would you love him or her any less?
love your children for who they are and not WHAT they are...
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Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
if your son or daughter was infertile? would you still want them to have grandkids?
I don't think your children plan on having homosexual lovemaking in front of you, will they? do your heterosexual children make out in front of you?
I'm just setting you up for the future...just a hypothetical "if"...
if your children were blind, would you love them any less because they can't see?
if your childrewn were deaf, would you love them any less because they can't hear..
if your children were born gay, would you love him or her any less?
love your children for who they are and not WHAT they are...
Are you just trying to set people up for rants. That's irritating. I'll love them no matter what.
B
BlackPuma
no not at all, that's good that you love them regardles...but I can assure you that there are parents who do not espouse your vies..
I was just amazed of what I heard coming from classmates in medical school, and I was just wondering, how would they react if one day, their child was gay....
hence the thread in the spouses forum....
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Its an interesting question, and one that all people that have children or plan on having them, should think about.
Too many people have in their heads the 'perfect child' and can easily see loving such a child. However, noone is perfect and children often vary from their parents dreams.
Personally, I don't think people should have children until they are ready to handle the fact that their child might be disabled or homosexual or anything that might be difficult for the parents. IF the parents can say they would still love their child....then they are ready. Again...this is just my opinion.
I am in my 3rd trimester with my first child and gave a great deal of thought to this question and realized that as long as they were happy.....that was what I ultimately wanted for them. I don't care how they achieve happiness and love.....I just want them to get to experience happiness and love.
With smiles,
Wifty
Too many people have in their heads the 'perfect child' and can easily see loving such a child. However, noone is perfect and children often vary from their parents dreams.
Personally, I don't think people should have children until they are ready to handle the fact that their child might be disabled or homosexual or anything that might be difficult for the parents. IF the parents can say they would still love their child....then they are ready. Again...this is just my opinion.
I am in my 3rd trimester with my first child and gave a great deal of thought to this question and realized that as long as they were happy.....that was what I ultimately wanted for them. I don't care how they achieve happiness and love.....I just want them to get to experience happiness and love.
With smiles,
Wifty
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wathca,
If one of my children is gay, I will support them in the same manner that I would my non-gay children. Sexual orientation is not something that you choose....So...my children would be free to bring their partner to our home for all family events and would be welcomed into the family like any other.
Did we just stumble upon a topic that we can agree on?
kris
If one of my children is gay, I will support them in the same manner that I would my non-gay children. Sexual orientation is not something that you choose....So...my children would be free to bring their partner to our home for all family events and would be welcomed into the family like any other.
Did we just stumble upon a topic that we can agree on?
kris
B
BlackPuma
kris, has there ever been a topic that we haven't agreed on? you are one of the few people in the lounge, where I'm in sync with ur beliefs..
the only reason I'm bringing this topic up, to sensitive some future parents to the possibility that their child might be gay, and that they CANT change it..
I mean it took my parents 10 freaking years to acccept that it is "not a choice"...at one point in time, my parents told me I was better off dead being gay, and then when I told my best friend I was gay, he freaked out, and told me to never talk to him...
I just wanted to raise the issue with some parents, because all I'm saying, you dont find out whether or not a child is "gay" until like around puberty....
and it turned my world upside down, because until last year, I thought I could be "fixed"....especially if u act very masculine...u have all these misconceptions that all gays are queens....I did...and for the longest time, I would refuse to watch tv shows with gay characters, or acknowledge that homosexuality was a "choice"...
of course, those were also the days were I contemplated ending my life as well....
I just wanted the parents to know....to expect the worst, and be ready for it....I don't think anyone wants to be gay...
if I had a choice...I wouldnt be gay...believe me....gays are their own worst enemy...
and reparative therapy, or "shock therapy" hasn't worked out for most pple I know...and the only group that I think could have a "choice" are bisexuals....
but I'm not remotely bi, and I dont have a choice...
my parents never HAD any exposure to gay people...and they totally DIDNT understand where I was coming from...they were like...why don't you want to be straight?! it was so frustrating..
my parents almost made me marry, and mom even got me a subscription to playboy for a year, and then after a month she was like...so how were the pictures...
and I was like they were nice, but I never knew what great articles they had in playbe...
and she was like
argh, I wasted 10 years of my life battling with my parents....and got beaten so badly so many times....now they love me and changed...
all I'm saying, is that if ur not ready for this, ur whole world is going to turn upside, and ur life is going to be a living hell...
I don't think its any easier on the parents....
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Hey dude, I'm sorry that you had to go through all of that...I hope that you're doing okay now.
I was going to come in answer to the thread: I don't see what the big problem is about being homosexual (besides the views of society and Christians ), so even though I'm not married yet, I would not care what sexual orientation my kids are. I mean, they would be my own flesh and blood, and the only problem I would have with my kids would be if they do something that they knew was morally wrong from their standpoint (stealing, cheating, murdering, etc.) that they had a choice in.
I have always known, ever since I heard about being gay and being lesbian, that it's not a choice, and I'm a bit more informed about it. I'm tired of conservative gay-bashers who are so ignorant as to think that it's a choice. But I'm not Christian, so I really don't see the big big problem with homosexuality.
Sorry for the rant but it just angers me whenever people think that something is a choice when it really isn't!
I was going to come in answer to the thread: I don't see what the big problem is about being homosexual (besides the views of society and Christians
), so even though I'm not married yet, I would not care what sexual orientation my kids are. I mean, they would be my own flesh and blood, and the only problem I would have with my kids would be if they do something that they knew was morally wrong from their standpoint (stealing, cheating, murdering, etc.) that they had a choice in.I have always known, ever since I heard about being gay and being lesbian, that it's not a choice, and I'm a bit more informed about it. I'm tired of conservative gay-bashers who are so ignorant as to think that it's a choice. But I'm not Christian, so I really don't see the big big problem with homosexuality.
Sorry for the rant but it just angers me whenever people think that something is a choice when it really isn't!
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I am Christian, and honestly I'm embarrassed that my church has such a narrow and ignorant view. I have too many gay friends being emotionally hurt by the church's view. I also know that there are many Christians that disagree with the church's position.
I ask my friends why they tolerate it. Why remain Christian when you feel like a major part of you is rejected. Their answer is similar to my thinking. The church has to change, and we are not the ones that are wrong. Hopefully the narrow views of the orgqanizers of the Christian churches will wake up. If not, I think there will be new groups of Christians breaking away from formal Christianity in support of organized groups of Christians that accept and embrace homosexuality.
Sorry to go on and on, but the issue bothers me. My church is an embarrassment on this issue.
I ask my friends why they tolerate it. Why remain Christian when you feel like a major part of you is rejected. Their answer is similar to my thinking. The church has to change, and we are not the ones that are wrong. Hopefully the narrow views of the orgqanizers of the Christian churches will wake up. If not, I think there will be new groups of Christians breaking away from formal Christianity in support of organized groups of Christians that accept and embrace homosexuality.
Sorry to go on and on, but the issue bothers me. My church is an embarrassment on this issue.
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I disagree. sexual orientation is a choice. There are countless people who USED to be gay and are not anymore. They have amazing testimonies.................THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS VIEWPOINT!
There has been no research to show any biological differences in gays/straights. people keep on lookin' for anything to hang their hopes on, but nothing has come out of it.
having said that..........i love my child regardless of anything that she may choose.
I also wouldn't not love anyone for being gay either. I don't have to agree with it, but I wouldn't hate them for it.
later
There has been no research to show any biological differences in gays/straights. people keep on lookin' for anything to hang their hopes on, but nothing has come out of it.
having said that..........i love my child regardless of anything that she may choose.
I also wouldn't not love anyone for being gay either. I don't have to agree with it, but I wouldn't hate them for it.
later
B
BlackPuma
why are you that ignorant? maybe sexual orientation for YOU is a choice, and that maybe you are a BISEXUAL..
but I have nEVER EVER had any kind of sexual attraction TO ANY WOMEN ON THIS GODS GREEN EARTH..
nor do I have EVER had the intention of being with a woman...its seems unnatural...In fact, seeing a naked women sometimes makes me nausous...
so stop propagating your own experience and acting as if everybody else has the same "choice" as you do..
if I had the chocie, I would be with a woman for the rest of my life..
I can't physically perform WITH ANY WOMEN!!!
so how the phuck is that a choice? am I supposed to marry a women, and pretend I'm impotent? is that fair to her?
what kind of dumb remark is this...and there is no research to show there is a difference between gay and straight?
I have news for you buddy..I've done research on schizophrenia for 3 years, and for the past 50 years, there is NO CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE that shows what CAUSES schizophrenia, and my degree is in neuroscience!!!
does that mean schizophrenia is a choice?
so if you are bisexual and have bisexual tendancies, then U HAVE A CHOICE!!
I DONT!!!
so get that through your head...please provide some "amazing testimonies" and data to back up your claim...
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I'll get back to you on the amazing testimonies.......they're out there.
As for scientific background I believe.......scratch that.......KNOW that there is a lot of scientific evidence supporting schizophrenia as a disease........whether it be inheritance patterns, age of onset typically, and biochemical imbalances in certain areas of the brain........
NONE OF THIS HAPPENS IN GAYS/LESBIANS.
it is very much a choice due to environment......how you were brought up, experiences that occured to you etc....
I'll come back with some statitstics (you should understand those since you are a neuroscience major) and show you how absolutely detrimental and unhealthy gay relationships are......numerous partners......much higher mortality rate etc.....than other demographics....
I'm not judging you so don't get so upset.
I just don't agree with you.
later
As for scientific background I believe.......scratch that.......KNOW that there is a lot of scientific evidence supporting schizophrenia as a disease........whether it be inheritance patterns, age of onset typically, and biochemical imbalances in certain areas of the brain........
NONE OF THIS HAPPENS IN GAYS/LESBIANS.
it is very much a choice due to environment......how you were brought up, experiences that occured to you etc....
I'll come back with some statitstics (you should understand those since you are a neuroscience major) and show you how absolutely detrimental and unhealthy gay relationships are......numerous partners......much higher mortality rate etc.....than other demographics....
I'm not judging you so don't get so upset.
I just don't agree with you.
later
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Lets keep this nice!!!
This should be about people sharing their different experiences and knowledge, and accepting that everyone is coming from a different point of view.
No saying that another is ignorant because they thing differently.....calmly educating and sharing info is the best way to encourage people to look at your side.
On with the civilized, thinking persons debate......
Wifty
This should be about people sharing their different experiences and knowledge, and accepting that everyone is coming from a different point of view.
No saying that another is ignorant because they thing differently.....calmly educating and sharing info is the best way to encourage people to look at your side.
On with the civilized, thinking persons debate......
Wifty
B
BlackPuma
ok let me ask you this, are you gay, bi or straight, and are you male or female?
B
BlackPuma
have you ever had any homosexual thoughts?
1
14931
The Bible clearly labels homosexuality as a sin, its not about rejection or being right or wrong. I agree that sometimes the church should be supportive and not turn against them, after all, "let he who has not sinned be the first to cast a stone" , nonetheless, the church should not have to compromise its belief that homosexuality is a sin.
B
BlackPuma
I agree wholeheartedly, that church theology is against any kind of acceptance of homosexuality...
and I don't think the church should compromise..however, having said that, the church also believes that women should obey their husbands, and that slavery is ok...
the punishment for rebellious kids is stonding to death too..
now how many modern day christians do you see stoning their kids...besides, the problem here is not christianity per se, judaism, islam, budhism, and other religious view homosexuality with disgust..
of course, catholicism, did not embrace the concept of psychiatric disease until the latter half of the 20th century, and until then excorcism was a common solution for pple suffering from schizophrenia..
religous doctrine, also persecuted and torchered galileo galilei for believing that the sun was teh center of the universe
as such, I would love my children even if they decided to be religious and I would not hold it agains them, since that is a choice
unlike homosexulaity, which isnt...
1
14931
so you don't think women should obey their husbands? and where does the bible say slavery is okay?
nope, the bible says to discipline children, not "stone them"
Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
religous doctrine, also persecuted and torchered galileo galilei for believing that the sun was teh center of the universe
eh, okay
Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
as such, I would love my children even if they decided to be religious and I would not hold it agains them, since that is a choice
if you say so...
B
BlackPuma
1. Women obey their husbands? why should any female "obey" their husbands? is he a partner, or a slave owner? A marriage is a mutual relationship between two people, any decision made should be a MUTUAL agreement between two individuals. NO MAN has the right to tell anyone women what or what not to do!
So NO, a woman does not HAVE to obey her husband, in the same way, a man does not HAVE to obey his wife...if there is a communication problem, then the marriage is a collision course..nobody should obey anybody....
2. the bible clearly stipulates that rebellious children should be stoned, please refer to Deutronomy:
DEUTERONOMY 21:18-21 NKJ
18 "If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them,
19 "then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city.
20 "And they shall say to the elders of his city, `This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil person from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.
3.Here are passages referring to slavery in the bible:
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Listen, I'm not going to make a thread bashing christianity...I think THAT IS VERY immoral...every person is entitled to your beliefs...the christian church, like judaism and islam, budhism and hinduism, considers homosexuality to be immoral..and I agree with you..
I'm not going from a religious viewpoint...if you are going to argue religion with me...believe I'm very well versed on the bible, torah, talmud, koran, avesta, and tons of other religious books..
there are passages in teh bible that are absolutely shocking...homosexuality is brought up at most 3 times in all of the bible...and yet adultery which is FAR MORE is completely forgetten..
besides, stoning of adulterers also exists in the bible, notice how people rarely talk about stoning a women..
as you can see, slavery is clearly mentioned in the bible, so is stoning...what say you?
1
14931
those are in the old testament, In the new testament, the aim of Jesus was to prevent all that from happening again, so...
and when i mean a woman should obey her husband, of course i don't mean for her to be a slave, there should be mutual agreement definitely. but you say a woman should not have to obey her husband? thats why the value and importance of marriage has gone downhill
and when i mean a woman should obey her husband, of course i don't mean for her to be a slave, there should be mutual agreement definitely. but you say a woman should not have to obey her husband? thats why the value and importance of marriage has gone downhill
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hey watcha!!!
Great post and great discussion.
I love how you backed up what you said. Sometimes it can be difficult to find references to back up a stance, but when you can find them.....its great to use them.
with smiles,
Wifty
Great post and great discussion.
I love how you backed up what you said. Sometimes it can be difficult to find references to back up a stance, but when you can find them.....its great to use them.
with smiles,
Wifty
B
BlackPuma
oh come on, isn't the old testament part of the bible, you said the bible never said children should be stoned...
1) I proved you wrong
2) you asked me for slavery and bible references, again I provided it for you
if you are one of the old "old testament doesnt count" crowd, and I only believe in the new testament, and you are an adherent of Jesus' teachings, then how many times has Jesus refered to homosexuality?
like zilch...can you tell me why today's christians have an infatuation with castigating and admonitioning gays, but apparently have no problem with adultery, fornication, stealing, etc...
with all due respect immediate spring...I showed you the sources that you wanted....on to vagus baby
B
BlackPuma
how on earth do you want me to tackle it, you have given me 5 different resources, each dealing with a different issue, one with genetics, one with reparative therapy (did you even bother to read Spitzer's article and his OWN analysis, on how the DATA IS FLAWEd?)
you argue a point ONE AT A TIME, not giving 10 sources, also you NEVER ever reply to any post, you just post topics and then leave!
In either case, I will post a rebuttal, but if you chose not to tackle it, then forget about me giving you another rebuttal...and I can only tackle one person at a time!
so referring to your sources:
here are your faults about Spitzer's "research"
let me remind you, that these are the type of things you look for in ANY research...so let's review statements given by the author of the article and spitzer himself!
1)But Spitzer's study, which has not yet been published or reviewed, seems to indicate otherwise
fault #1 the research is neither published or reviewed by another source, this is enough for the research to collapse!
2) Spitzer says he spoke to 143 men and 57 women who say they changed their orientation from gay to straight, and concluded that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of women reached what he called good heterosexual functioning
he "spoke to them" is that his method of testing if someone is gay or straight or bisexual?
what is his method of control? who is he comparing this population to, does he have an "alternate" group of "Straight men and women" who became gay through "reparative therapy"..
if you don't have a control your research is biased...
how do you asses a person's homosexuality or heterosexuality,
best research that I have seen so far is, you attach electrodes to different partts of the body including genitalia, you measure blood pressure, temperature changes in the body in response to:
A) male and female porn
B) male and male porn
C) female and female porn
it is not enough for subjects to say "that I am straight now" how do you know the samples are not lying because of religious pressure?
as an example I will cite two historical research organizations of claims of homosexual men becoming heterosexual?
here were tons of christian ex gay ministries that resorted to scandal, one of the most famous was exodus international where the two leading presidents of the organization for ten years married and lived a heterosexual life, then both of these partners, decided to come out and lived together for the rest of their lives!!!
there are tons of sources which I can cite for that..but one at a time..in reference to your spitzer study, remember,
Of Spitzer's subjects, only 42 percent of men and 46 percent of women rated themselves as "exclusively homosexual" before they sought therapy to diminish gay feelings.
therefore, the MAJORITY of spizter's sample were bisexual, a good article countering spitzer's claim and deciminating his reserach can be seen here, but there are better ones:
http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/gay-change.html
and here read the results of the study:
After therapy, conducted prior to the study, 54 percent of Spitzer's female subjects and just 17 percent of men rated themselves as "exclusively heterosexual"--
you argue a point ONE AT A TIME, not giving 10 sources, also you NEVER ever reply to any post, you just post topics and then leave!
In either case, I will post a rebuttal, but if you chose not to tackle it, then forget about me giving you another rebuttal...and I can only tackle one person at a time!
so referring to your sources:
here are your faults about Spitzer's "research"
let me remind you, that these are the type of things you look for in ANY research...so let's review statements given by the author of the article and spitzer himself!
1)But Spitzer's study, which has not yet been published or reviewed, seems to indicate otherwise
fault #1 the research is neither published or reviewed by another source, this is enough for the research to collapse!
2) Spitzer says he spoke to 143 men and 57 women who say they changed their orientation from gay to straight, and concluded that 66 percent of the men and 44 percent of women reached what he called good heterosexual functioning
he "spoke to them" is that his method of testing if someone is gay or straight or bisexual?
what is his method of control? who is he comparing this population to, does he have an "alternate" group of "Straight men and women" who became gay through "reparative therapy"..
if you don't have a control your research is biased...
how do you asses a person's homosexuality or heterosexuality,
best research that I have seen so far is, you attach electrodes to different partts of the body including genitalia, you measure blood pressure, temperature changes in the body in response to:
A) male and female porn
B) male and male porn
C) female and female porn
it is not enough for subjects to say "that I am straight now" how do you know the samples are not lying because of religious pressure?
as an example I will cite two historical research organizations of claims of homosexual men becoming heterosexual?
here were tons of christian ex gay ministries that resorted to scandal, one of the most famous was exodus international where the two leading presidents of the organization for ten years married and lived a heterosexual life, then both of these partners, decided to come out and lived together for the rest of their lives!!!
there are tons of sources which I can cite for that..but one at a time..in reference to your spitzer study, remember,
Of Spitzer's subjects, only 42 percent of men and 46 percent of women rated themselves as "exclusively homosexual" before they sought therapy to diminish gay feelings.
therefore, the MAJORITY of spizter's sample were bisexual, a good article countering spitzer's claim and deciminating his reserach can be seen here, but there are better ones:
http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/gay-change.html
and here read the results of the study:
After therapy, conducted prior to the study, 54 percent of Spitzer's female subjects and just 17 percent of men rated themselves as "exclusively heterosexual"--
B
BlackPuma
are you even reading your own articles, or do you like to post random things?
read this paragraph about BOTH researches conducted for and against the "gay gene"
?What we have here is a scientific controversy,? says Michael Bailey, a Northwestern University psychologist who has studied homosexuality in twins. The latest research effort ?is a good study and it certainly raises questions about whether Hamer was right, but I don?t think it proves him wrong either.?
That?s because both studies were relatively small, and because specific genes are difficult to find. ?A definitive study,? says Bailey, ?would entail substantially larger numbers of people.?
B
BlackPuma
and this is a relatively new research off the press from UCLA..
they have not "found a gay gene either"...however the results are rather interesting..
New Gay Gene Evidence
by Matt Johns
(Los Angeles, California) Evidence continues to mount that sexuality is genetically controlled. The latest findings were reported today by researchers from the University of California.
The scientists, in a statement, said that sexual identity is "hard-wired" into the genes.
"Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome," said Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the UCLA School of Medicine.
Vilain and his team of researchers have identified 54 genes in mice that may explain why male and female brains look and function differently. They used two separate genetic testing methods to compare the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice -- long before the animals developed sex organs.
They discovered 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.
"We discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function." Vilain said. Among the differences, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.
Vilian warns though that finding the exact gene that results in homosexuality will require considerable more research. He said that if future research does determine conclusively that homosexuality is genetic and not a choice, the implications would be huge.
"If it's not a choice, you can't have the typical conservative argument that says you choose this lifestyle so you have to bear the consequences and society has no reason to basically give you any rights because you choose to be an outcast," Vilain said.
"If you can't do anything about it, therefore you should have all the rights to be integrated into society and have the same rights as heterosexuals in terms of marriage and the rights to inheritance."
Vilain said the initial emphasis will be on determining the origin of transgenderism. He says the research may help doctors determine the proper gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.
"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," Vilain said.
Typically such a baby is assigned a gender and in many places in North America genital surgery is performed to make the genitals appear to conform to the gender selected.
But many grow up very unhappy, feeling the surgery was harmful by assigning them a gender they didn't feel was appropriate.
The Human Rights Campaign welcomed the results but said that laws should protect all Americans equally, regardless of the genetic basis for being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.
"This study is part of a growing body of evidence showing that it is likely that sexual orientation and gender identity are genetically based," said Elizabeth Birch, HRC's executive director.
"Although further research will be conducted by this team, at the end of the day, the question of nature versus nurture shouldn't matter. Laws in America should protect everybody equally, regardless of what causes differences of sexual orientation or gender identity."
Last week, British psychologists also said they have found strong evidence to support the theory that a person's sexuality is "hard-wired" into the brain before birth.
they have not "found a gay gene either"...however the results are rather interesting..
New Gay Gene Evidence
by Matt Johns
(Los Angeles, California) Evidence continues to mount that sexuality is genetically controlled. The latest findings were reported today by researchers from the University of California.
The scientists, in a statement, said that sexual identity is "hard-wired" into the genes.
"Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome," said Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the UCLA School of Medicine.
Vilain and his team of researchers have identified 54 genes in mice that may explain why male and female brains look and function differently. They used two separate genetic testing methods to compare the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice -- long before the animals developed sex organs.
They discovered 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.
"We discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function." Vilain said. Among the differences, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.
Vilian warns though that finding the exact gene that results in homosexuality will require considerable more research. He said that if future research does determine conclusively that homosexuality is genetic and not a choice, the implications would be huge.
"If it's not a choice, you can't have the typical conservative argument that says you choose this lifestyle so you have to bear the consequences and society has no reason to basically give you any rights because you choose to be an outcast," Vilain said.
"If you can't do anything about it, therefore you should have all the rights to be integrated into society and have the same rights as heterosexuals in terms of marriage and the rights to inheritance."
Vilain said the initial emphasis will be on determining the origin of transgenderism. He says the research may help doctors determine the proper gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.
"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," Vilain said.
Typically such a baby is assigned a gender and in many places in North America genital surgery is performed to make the genitals appear to conform to the gender selected.
But many grow up very unhappy, feeling the surgery was harmful by assigning them a gender they didn't feel was appropriate.
The Human Rights Campaign welcomed the results but said that laws should protect all Americans equally, regardless of the genetic basis for being gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender.
"This study is part of a growing body of evidence showing that it is likely that sexual orientation and gender identity are genetically based," said Elizabeth Birch, HRC's executive director.
"Although further research will be conducted by this team, at the end of the day, the question of nature versus nurture shouldn't matter. Laws in America should protect everybody equally, regardless of what causes differences of sexual orientation or gender identity."
Last week, British psychologists also said they have found strong evidence to support the theory that a person's sexuality is "hard-wired" into the brain before birth.
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BlackPuma
this is also from a student's paper at UCLA...
read the research studies, namely:
Dean Hamer
Simon LeVay
Bailey and Pillard
Drosophila melanogaster
of course there are other evidence that homosexual brain and heterosexual brain have different morphologies as well..
http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~kmayeda/HC92/hc92.html
read the research studies, namely:
Dean Hamer
Simon LeVay
Bailey and Pillard
Drosophila melanogaster
of course there are other evidence that homosexual brain and heterosexual brain have different morphologies as well..
http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~kmayeda/HC92/hc92.html
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On the contrary wacha, the bible also says to discipline children. the old testament is very much a part of the bible, it allows us to see what would have continued to happen had Jesus not come to save us. I am not trying to preach to you about christianity, neither am i telling you from my own opinion whether homosexuality is wrong or not so stop being so darn defensive. I would show you bible scriptures, but what would be the point, you are not a christian. and no i am not one of the "old testament crowd" or whatever, but it is CLEARLY stated in the bible that homosexuality is a sin, and in the new testament too.
...and you asked for it:
Matthew 15
19:For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"?but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body.
19: Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
i don't know where you heard that christianity does not admonish stealing etc, the only diffrence is that homosexuality is being accepted, adultery , stealing and the others are still sin and everyone knows that
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1 Corinthians 6
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
Romans 1
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
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BlackPuma
vagus baby, thank you for replying with the same article adn giving me an "editorial comment"..this has no basis in scientific merit....it's just abut some random person making editorial comments about minority and homosexuality..
I've seen studies in animals as well where the animal homosexula brain is DIFFERENT from the heterosexual brain...I spent 4 years getting my neuro degree as well have done research in MRI and neuroimaging...
and when I read papers, I tend to read them on pubmed...not ABC...thanks for making a valiant attempt at giving me editorial comments...as you can see the spizter article and the ones after that had no basis, even their own article dismissed their claims and results..
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BlackPuma
with all due respect, nnone of the corinthian passages that you used here used the word "homosexual" in them....it used the word sexual immorality, and that is extremely vague and open to interpretation...
besides, is not polygamy a common practice of the bible? half the prophets of the bible were polygamists, just look at abraham...
I will reply to your other post...
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BlackPuma
read my thread way way up, I said I knwo for a fact that the bible says homosexuality is a sin...
and the number of times that homosexuality appeared in the bible is by FAR LESS than adultery, divorce, stealing and murdering etc etc
also please don't forget some other archaic laws in the bible as well...it seems as if today's christians like to pick and chose which verses to follow, as such please read below:
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
according to this passage, if a woman is raped she has to marry the rapist
and this one also pertains to raping the women of an "enemy"...while the women is grieving for her parents, you have permission to keep her in your household for a month...wow
Suppose you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God hands them over to you and you take captives. And suppose you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you are attracted to her and want to marry her. If this happens, you may take her to your home, where she must shave her head, cut her fingernails, and change all her clothes. Then she must remain in your home for a full month, mourning for her father and mother. After that you may marry her. But if you marry her and then decide you do not like her, you must let her go free. You may not sell her or treat her as a slave, for you have humiliated her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NLT)
so now the bible has a problem with homosexuals as well? now you know why some people dont follow the teachings of the bible?
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BlackPuma
since you provided passages from corinthians...I wish to bring some other passages from corinthians as well...so you won't keep on saying that half of my quotes are from the "old testament"
1) Christians are not supposed to take their disputes before non-Christian courts or judges. (?If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?? -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 NIV
and here are more terrific passages of the bible:
lets see you dispute them as well...according to the bible, christians should kill all non-christians as well....
Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn?t ?receive? the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don?t believe in him. Jude 5
Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:
Don?t associate with non-Christians. Don?t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Judge other religions for not following Christ:
Whoever denies ?that Jesus is the Christ? is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are ?of God;? everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is ?a deceiver and an anti-Christ? 2 John 7
Anyone who doesn?t share Paul?s beliefs has ?an evil heart.? Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of ?the synagogue of Satan.? Revelations 2:9, 3:9
and more:
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
as you can see I included passages from the new testament as well
1) Christians are not supposed to take their disputes before non-Christian courts or judges. (?If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints?? -- 1 Corinthians 6:1 NIV
and here are more terrific passages of the bible:
lets see you dispute them as well...according to the bible, christians should kill all non-christians as well....
Kill those who are not Christian or Jewish:
You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20
Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16
Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7
Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13
Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20
Any city that doesn?t ?receive? the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11
Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don?t believe in him. Jude 5
Ignorance is bliss. Christians should not practice free inquiry nor socialize with non Christians:
Don?t associate with non-Christians. Don?t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 10
Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
Judge other religions for not following Christ:
Whoever denies ?that Jesus is the Christ? is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22
Christians are ?of God;? everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19
The non-Christian is ?a deceiver and an anti-Christ? 2 John 7
Anyone who doesn?t share Paul?s beliefs has ?an evil heart.? Hebrews 3:12
False Jews are members of ?the synagogue of Satan.? Revelations 2:9, 3:9
and more:
Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10
A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33
as you can see I included passages from the new testament as well
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i thought we were arguing about homosexuality not christianity, and your above statement, well thought
whatever watcha, you asked for opinions yet you can't seem to respect other people's opinion, if you want to be gay, hey, just in case you forgot, you live in America, land of immora... oops sorry i mean, eh freedom
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watcha didn't say a word about the bible or christianity until you brought it up. even then, he only used biblical passages to assert certain christians only use the bible to defend their personal beliefs, but ignore many other parts of the bible.Originally posted by immediatespring
i thought we were arguing about homosexuality not christianity, and your above statement, well thought
whatever watcha, you asked for opinions yet you can't seem to respect other people's opinion, if you want to be gay, hey, just in case you forgot, you live in America, land of immora... oops sorry i mean, eh freedom
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BlackPuma
Originally posted by immediatespring
i thought we were arguing about homosexuality not christianity, and your above statement, well thought
whatever watcha, you asked for opinions yet you can't seem to respect other people's opinion, if you want to be gay, hey, just in case you forgot, you live in America, land of immora... oops sorry i mean, eh freedom
respecting other people's opinions? I respect the fact that you think gays are going to hell or not, it doesn't matter to me...
1) I created this thread to create a discussion with parents
2) someone brought up christianity
3) I said whatever christianity thinks is irrelevant, they also think stoning children, and slavery is ok
4) you said it was not true
5) I showed you passage which showed that it was INDEED true
6) you said, it was old testament doesnt count, and gave me passages from romans and corinthians
7) so I gave you new passages from the new testament
8) you can't back up your "holy book"...so you say, I don't respect your opinions or beliefs
I'm glad you are not applying to law school. I'm not criticizing christianity...I'm criticizing christians who "thinkg" they are morally superior to everyone else, by puttind down gays for instance..
it's funny, when I show you passages which are frightening in the bible, absolutely absolutely frightening, you accuse me of not respecting other people's opinions!
listen, if you are going to use christianity as a line of defense by saying homosexuality is wrong, then I can use your own book, passage and verse to show that christianity SHOULD not be a moral authority in judging other people...I've only USED ur own bible against you...that HAS nothing to do with respecting pple's beliefs or not..
my roomate is a strict christian, goes to church every sunday...he hasnt the slightest clue that I'm gay, since I dont bring gay friends home...but that DOESNT mean I dont respect or love him as a friend..
and if you ave a problem with american being the land of the "immoral" then I suggest you move to another country where your views are more accepted, peace
funny, how you can't defend your views, you just make a statement and then run
oh and vagus baby, keep posting the same article buddy
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Watcha...now you know I'm not anti-gay at all, but I've got to call you on this one. The male homosecual community is very promiscous, hence our inability to get the 40,000/yr HIV new infx rate to budge (it's been holding steady at ~40,000 for years.)
I've done a lot of reading on this issue (took an undergrad AIDS course), and there's overwhleming evidence of the massive pomiscuity among male homosexuals.
Now listen, I'm not judging promiscuity in anyway...it's none of my business how promiscous anyone is...doesn't affect me in any way; however, I can see how people might form generalizations about gay lifestyles.
Again, I don't condemn homosexuals for being promiscous...again, that's their business....I do however condemn their lack of safety which contributes so much to the HIV infx rate. Just within the past two weeks I've seen 2 new dx's of HIV infx, and it's very sad. I don't understand this whole bare-back movement thing that apparently started in S. Florida and now has apparently spread to NYC and San Fran...I just don't understand why the gay cmty is so self-destructive in this regard.
Sorry, I got a little off subject...I'll save it for another thread.
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Wow. I agree with 100% of what you just said.
I'm marking this on my calender: "Me and mommd2b agreed on something."
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yeah but my reply wasn't to watcha post.... was it?
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Oh really. So do you remember the day when you "decided" to be straight? I very much doubt it.
I've never met anyone who made this decision, because it's NOT A DECISION! It's something that just happens...one day we realize we're attracted to one sex or another (or both!)...and that's that.
There's no changing your sexuality. People that 'converted' or 'switched' or whatever are simply bisexual.
Again, discovering one's sexuality is not some decision we all make...it's something that just happens to you.
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Originally posted by WatchaMaCallit
respecting other people's opinions? I respect the fact that you think gays are going to hell or not, it doesn't matter to me...
1) I created this thread to create a discussion with parents
2) someone brought up christianity
3) I said whatever christianity thinks is irrelevant, they also think stoning children, and slavery is ok
4) you said it was not true
5) I showed you passage which showed that it was INDEED true
6) you said, it was old testament doesnt count, and gave me passages from romans and corinthians
7) so I gave you new passages from the new testament
8) you can't back up your "holy book"...so you say, I don't respect your opinions or beliefs
I'm glad you are not applying to law school. I'm not criticizing christianity...I'm criticizing christians who "thinkg" they are morally superior to everyone else, by puttind down gays for instance..
it's funny, when I show you passages which are frightening in the bible, absolutely absolutely frightening, you accuse me of not respecting other people's opinions!
listen, if you are going to use christianity as a line of defense by saying homosexuality is wrong, then I can use your own book, passage and verse to show that christianity SHOULD not be a moral authority in judging other people...I've only USED ur own bible against you...that HAS nothing to do with respecting pple's beliefs or not..
my roomate is a strict christian, goes to church every sunday...he hasnt the slightest clue that I'm gay, since I dont bring gay friends home...but that DOESNT mean I dont respect or love him as a friend..
and if you ave a problem with american being the land of the "immoral" then I suggest you move to another country where your views are more accepted, peace
funny, how you can't defend your views, you just make a statement and then run
oh and vagus baby, keep posting the same article buddy
i actually do live in another country, but thanks for the advice
christianity should not be a moral authourity to judge people, it should be a moral authourity for christians to adhere to, and since you are not.... i can't back up my holy bible? well darn, i have no idea what i posted earlier but to itirate1) my inital reply was to another post
2) i have no judgement or whatever towards gay people but i cannot ignore the fact that..
3) i am a christian and my beliefs dictate certain things that i choose to believe in
4) you don't have to agree with those things, you are not a christian
5) in summarisation, my original post was not targeted at you
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The bible also states that slaves should obey their masters.
The bible states that mixing different fabrics is a sin.
Give it a rest.
Oh...let me guess...that's one of the parts thats not to be taken literally, right? How convenient that you all can decide which parts of the bible you choose to take literally and which you choose to ignore.
Oh, BTW...how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality as being a sin?
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well, the bible also says that love your neighbour as you love yourself, it also says bless those who curse you, it says ...it says.... it says... what was your point? how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality? well hold on, i am going to count that, becuase when i get to heaven, thats one of the first questions Jesus will ask me, k?
again, this was not intended as an attack against watcha, MY ORIGINAL POST WAS IN REPLY TO ANOTHER CHRISTIAN'S POST, but either way , bring it on...
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Again, the question was how many times did Jesus mention homosexuality? The answer is still zero. Jesus didn't write Corinthians. Wasn't that one of Paul's letters (?)
Anyway, homosexuality was never addressed by Jesus...read to the Gospels...it was never mentioned.
God...if you listened to all the religious nut jobs (Fawell, et. al), you'd think the entire New Testament was dedicated to bashing homosexuality!
I hate it when Christians come across so high-and-mighty with all these biblical quotes condemning "deviant" sexual behavior. I guess all these people never had premarital sex, or masterbated, or had oral sex....all things which are strictly prohibited.
Damn...religious whackos need to get a life and quit worrying about what everyone else is doing in their bedrooms.
