What's "down" or "less competitive" this year???

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lilycat

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:confused:

Just curious if anyone else has noticed the trend where it seems like every specialty is "more competitive" this year, ie meaning an increase in # of applications per students, program directors, etc. I've just been noticing that on several forums, specifically anesthesia, OB, and IM, they are all talking about how this year seems to be "more competitive." Then, for other specialties such as general surgery, ENT, ophtho, EM, derm, rads, etc., no one is necessarily talking about things being more competitive, but it seems like the same level of demand/competitiveness as previous years. On the interview trail, I've even heard that the number of Psych applicants at various schools has gone up considerably (double the usual number).

If this is truly the case, what is actually "not competitive" right now? FP??? And in that case, does that mean the number of FP applicants has dropped drastically (since the supposed increased number of applicants in certain fields must have come from somewhere).

Anyways, I'm just curious what other people's thoughts are. Personally, I'm not sure that I really buy the fact that so many fields have become increasingly competitive this year, since at least the number of US grads stays pretty constant year to year. Are people just applying that much more widely (to a minimum of 25 programs when maybe the minimum used to be 15?). Or is this just the annual hype that I'm not used to?

Thoughts? Ideas?

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Thoracic surgery is definitely on the way down. Of course, in another 15 years, we won't have a need for such invasive procedures---you'd be out of a job if you take this route.

As for IM being more competitive: are you kidding? There are way more spots that than applicants for internal med. If you can at least spell your name correctly on the application, you'll get in somewhere.

Generally speaking, not competitive are FP, IM, peds, and psych. Some programs---e.g., Harvard---will always be competitive, not matter what the field is.
 
Wouldn't be surprised if FP is tanking. You can't keep violating people and expect newcomers into the profession. I hear the EM bubble is deflating too because they've oversaturated the market which is hurting the salaries. General surgery was saved by the 80-hour week so they are on the rise again.

So, uh, are people assuming something is competitive this year because 20 SDN posters said so or listed a school/program as their first choice?
 
deuist said:
Thoracic surgery is definitely on the way down. Of course, in another 15 years, we won't have a need for such invasive procedures---you'd be out of a job if you take this route.

As for IM being more competitive: are you kidding? There are way more spots that than applicants for internal med. If you can at least spell your name correctly on the application, you'll get in somewhere.

Generally speaking, not competitive are FP, IM, peds, and psych. Some programs---e.g., Harvard---will always be competitive, not matter what the field is.

There is a thread in the IM forum where posters are commenting that certain programs are talking about around a 20% increase in number of apps. I don't think it applies broadly across the field, but I thought it was interesting that it came up at all. I don't think they were talking exclusively about "top tier" programs, but I could be wrong (I don't think any specific names were mentioned). The programs being discussed were likely university/academic programs and not community programs though (I'm guessing, but that seems likely in this scenario).
 
Mumpu said:
So, uh, are people assuming something is competitive this year because 20 SDN posters said so or listed a school/program as their first choice?

For anesthesia, I think it is based on a few factors, all somewhat anecdotal. 1) Most applicants I've talked to have said that the number of applicants from their home school is up this year, at least 1.5x-2x the number of the last few years; 2) When talking to programs about applications this year, most applicants have had the experience of the program directors or coordinators talking about a large jump in number of applications this year, and an overall increase in "quality," (this could be hype, but the ones I've spoken with do seem genuinely astonished by the increased # of apps).

For OB, the PD's I've spoken with (not a huge number mind you) all have indicated that they feel the "tide is turning" -- apps are up slightly, and "quality" has gone up.

It just seemed to me that "everyone" seems to think their field is "more competitive." This just doesn't seem possible to me, so I can only imagine that it's "hype." Just curious. ;)
 
i bet this phenomenon is more to do with the fact that the same number of students are being scared by their deans to apply to more programs to ensure a match somewhere. eras makes this easy. all you do is click a few more times and you've applied to 10 more schools in just as many seconds. the only limitation in the end is $$$.
 
Mumpu said:
Wouldn't be surprised if FP is tanking. You can't keep violating people and expect newcomers into the profession. I hear the EM bubble is deflating too because they've oversaturated the market which is hurting the salaries. General surgery was saved by the 80-hour week so they are on the rise again.

So, uh, are people assuming something is competitive this year because 20 SDN posters said so or listed a school/program as their first choice?

EM has had a shortage of physicians since it's inception in the 60's. The number of visits continues to increase nation wide. We project that the market will not be mature (read saturated) until 2020-2030.

That said- we essentially started from 0. We now have about 25-30 K physicians in the field. Some markets are tight. However none of my graduates have any trouble finding a satisfactory job. In our area, income continues to increase.
 
BKN said:
EM has had a shortage of physicians since it's inception in the 60's. The number of visits continues to increase nation wide. We project that the market will not be mature (read saturated) until 2020-2030.

That said- we essentially started from 0. We now have about 25-30 K physicians in the field. Some markets are tight. However none of my graduates have any trouble finding a satisfactory job. In our area, income continues to increase.

Good to know! I guess I should start saving $$ after residency so that around 2020-2030 I can take a slight decrease in income.

I do agree with the poster that suggested that the ERAS system has made everything more "competitive" just because of the ease of applying to dozens of programs with the click of a mouse.
 
stw2361 said:
I do agree with the poster that suggested that the ERAS system has made everything more "competitive" just because of the ease of applying to dozens of programs with the click of a mouse.

Maybe programs should implement secondary applications, not really for more info but just to make it slightly more difficult to apply to tons of programs. Then people might limit their applications to programs they really want and PDs wouldn't have all of these extra applications.
 
robotsonic said:
Maybe programs should implement secondary applications, not really for more info but just to make it slightly more difficult to apply to tons of programs. Then people might limit their applications to programs they really want and PDs wouldn't have all of these extra applications.

nah. that's common sense. what we need are mandatory second looks and optional third, fourth, fifth and sixth looks. seventh if you REALLY wanna show you're interested. :rolleyes:
 
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One factor that has increased competition this year is that a there is a sharp increase in # of FMGs applying this year. For example, in the days past there were limited number of USMLE centers in Asia. Now they are in every major city. A lot more medical students in Asia take USMLEs and apply for residencies. It used to be very difficult to get a visa for a medical student. Now the US government is inviting them to come.
 
MDgonnabe said:
nah. that's common sense. what we need are mandatory second looks and optional third, fourth, fifth and sixth looks. seventh if you REALLY wanna show you're interested. :rolleyes:


MDgonna, you know 7 looks is not enough with the competitiveness of todays medical student - I'm voting for the 10th look to hand deliver the letter of interest written in caligraphy and framed- sound like a plan? :laugh: :laugh:
 
Secondaries would be unfair to people who actually have to apply to 60-70 programs in this ******ed system we have in order to get interviews.

Lifestyle is becoming more and more of a deciding factor if you can trust the research, so no surprise that anesthesia etc. are on the rise. The tide turning for surgery and OB has everything to do with 80 hour weeks (though I'm yet to see anyone actually consisntely comply).
 
Mumpu said:
Secondaries would be unfair to people who actually have to apply to 60-70 programs in this ******ed system we have in order to get interviews.

so what'd those people do before eras?

Lifestyle is becoming more and more of a deciding factor if you can trust the research, so no surprise that anesthesia etc. are on the rise. The tide turning for surgery and OB has everything to do with 80 hour weeks (though I'm yet to see anyone actually consisntely comply).

beyond the lack of adherance to the law as it is, don't people know that the "80 hour" workweek is just during residency? once you're out you slave your @$$ off as an attending and the sky's the limit.
 
There isn't any way to actually know any of this until after the match, is there? :confused:
 
Nope...

This is all one big moot point.
 
actually, even after match it is tough to guage "competitiveness, IMO. simple increases in applications don't mean a lot if the applications are weaker than in years past. that doesn't mean more competitive, right? it just means more crappy applicants. and, seeing as how we have no data on stats and qualifications, it is really hard to say what is tougher to get. all we get is the SDN data, which are obviously skewed (see the usmle step scores for an example).
 
Mumpu said:
Secondaries would be unfair to people who actually have to apply to 60-70 programs in this ******ed system we have in order to get interviews.

Lifestyle is becoming more and more of a deciding factor if you can trust the research, so no surprise that anesthesia etc. are on the rise. The tide turning for surgery and OB has everything to do with 80 hour weeks (though I'm yet to see anyone actually consisntely comply).

The "why" of certain fields increasing in apps, numbers, etc., I understand. My question was where applicants are coming from, if some fields are actually getting significantly increased #s of applicants. I just have trouble believing people when they are saying "X field is getting more competitive/more applicants, etc." because these applicants have to come from somewhere. Either FMGs/IMGs are making up all the difference (likely for some fields, unlikely for others), or some field or fields are taking a big hit in #s (that's what I'm curious about), or it's all completely bogus and things aren't substantially different this year from previous years.
 
Poety said:
- I'm voting for the 10th look to hand deliver the letter of interest written in caligraphy and framed- sound like a plan? :laugh: :laugh:

I'd add the requirement that it be in three languages as well- Arabic, Russian, and Chinese (your choice of dialect ;) )

There was an article in a recent local news paper where this kid was taking 3 college level classes, spoke 2 foreign languages and could read a 3rd, but was still worried that he wouldn't get into college! This world is going nuts.
 
Annette said:
I'd add the requirement that it be in three languages as well- Arabic, Russian, and Chinese (your choice of dialect ;) )

There was an article in a recent local news paper where this kid was taking 3 college level classes, spoke 2 foreign languages and could read a 3rd, but was still worried that he wouldn't get into college! This world is going nuts.

You're not kidding - even the PD's must be going nuts with all this stuff!
 
I think that a folklore circulates about the relative 'competitiveness' of any field. I agree with lilycat.

Program directors inflate their numbers to look good. No one wants to be the director who had declining applications.

Deans want to avoid having unmatched students. Although this is mostly for the students' own benefit, it also promotes less than accurate information.

Applicants want to impress their friends and family. No one wants to go into a 'slumping' field.
 
lilycat said:
since at least the number of US grads stays pretty constant year to year.


This is where your logic goes astray.

The number of people applying to residencies is going UP, its not constant. This is due to a myriad of factors, which I'll lay out below:

1) There have been many new DO schools opened up the last few years, and more DO schools on the way. They are fools and aggressively pushing an expansion of nationwide DO programs.

2) Many of these new DO graduates are aggressively pushing after MD residencies. Before they always stuck to their FP and osteopathic residencies, but many more DOs are now pursuing other specialties that are currently relegated to the MD realm.

3) The number of FMGs has gone up. As somebody else mentioned above, the ECFMG has made it progressively easier for FMGs to enter hte match. Lots of barriers have been removed, and now more FMGs are applying than ever.

4) More MD schools. FSU, Cleveland Clinic, and a couple of other new med schools in the USA have opened up recently. that means more MD graduates. Each school puts out an extra 100-200 grads. It gets worse too. 3 more MD schools are being planned in florida alone. Texas is going to add 2 more med schools (UT Austin, UT El Paso). California is also considering expanding the med school system there.

5) Backdoor entry programs. Many US MD programs now have partnerships with foreign countries to allow their FMGs to come in as "american medical graduates" and bypass the ECFMG rules. Some MD programs are outright building new foreign med schools, but attaching the "american university" label to them, thereby granting their graduates american medical student status. Cornell has a program in Qatar, Harvard has a program in United Arab Emirates, Univ of South Florida is starting a program in India.

6) Some MD programs have increased their enrollment.

7) the number of residency slots has remained constant the past few years.

So what we have is more competition for fewer slots. The biggest threat is the increase in DO programs. They are aggressivley pushing more DO schools. There are already 5 new DO schools in the works and they want to expand beyond that as well. They are doing this so they can increase their "image" in the marketplace. The idiots are going to hurt all of us (MDs and DOs) if they continue to pursue this aggressive strategy.

It also doesnt help when just about every state in the country wants to open up a new med school. As I stated, Florida is going to build 3 new MD schools in the next couple of years.
 
We keep building more medical schools when what we need most is (1) more people to enter primary care---maybe use an incentive package---and (2) a decrease in malpractice insurance in the crisis states. Good luck finding a neurosurgeon in Florida.
 
If the need for more primary care docs is a legit one....then the opening of several more DO schools (who have a propensity for producing primary care docs) seems like a good idea overall....though there are definitely some other concerns that go along with it (as expressed in this post and several on the osteo/pre-osteo forums)...
 
MacGyver said:
So what we have is more competition for fewer slots. The biggest threat is the increase in DO programs.

I don't really see why you consider DO's as a "threat." They're a necessity since allopathic programs have FAILED COMPLETELY to produce ANYWHERE NEAR the required number of doctors in this country. It's pathetic that we have to hire a good third of our doctors from overseas, meanwhile americans are being turned away from med school right and left.

-Sledge, M.D.
 
It is a all a crap shoot. You have 100% chance of getting the residency of your choice if they interview you, like you, and rank you, and 0% if they don't. All else is conjecture and won't help you one bit. We have all heard the stories of so-and-so from East Boonesville U. getting into a very competitive program, and some guy from Ivy U. not matching his first 3 choices. Most of us fall somewhere in between.

So, in the meantime, just apply to the places you like in the field you like, do your best, and save your brain waves for more relevant and important topics, like your patients and your family.

DOs a threat...that's a good one! Don't engage MacGyver. This is his favorite rant. Next he'll launch into the looming threat of PAs, NPs, med techs, CRNAs, the guy who empties the trash cans, delivery truck drivers delivering medical supplies, the old lady in the gift shop....
 
Sledge2005 said:
I don't really see why you consider DO's as a "threat." They're a necessity since allopathic programs have FAILED COMPLETELY to produce ANYWHERE NEAR the required number of doctors in this country. It's pathetic that we have to hire a good third of our doctors from overseas, meanwhile americans are being turned away from med school right and left.

-Sledge, M.D.


Your implicit assumption is that residency slots are created/reduced to match population supply and demand.

Thats patently false. Residency slots have nothing to do with real doctor supply needed in this country.

Residency slots have EVERYTHING to do with getting more $$$ from the federal government. Thats why every podunk hospital in the country has FP residency slots when in fact most of them dont need it to supply their communities.

Each residency slot is funded at 100k per year courtesy of Medicare. Small hospitals who have no business running a teaching program jump at the chance to get their hands on this money. If you'd let them, they'd open up 100 more FP slots and fill them all with FMGs.

So the high supply of FMGs in this country has NOTHING to do with a real doctor shortage and everything to do with taking the federal government's money.

US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the industrialized world. We dont have a doctor shortage.
 
MacGyver said:
US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the industrialized world. We dont have a doctor shortage.

Really? Is that true? Anyone know a link to a table of doctor/patient ratios?


Our problem is one of regional/class disparities then, right?
 
US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the industrialized world.

Yep

We dont have a doctor shortage.

Nope. Anytime that people are required to wait weeks or even months to see a physician, we have a shortage. Why, just look at neurosurgeons in Florida, ob/gyns in crisis states, and psychiatrists throughout the country. Some specialities definitely need more practitioners. The real question is the cause of the shortage---e.g., number of residency programs vs high insurance rates.

Our ratio might be better than other countries, but it still needs some work.
 
PatrickBateman said:
Really? Is that true? Anyone know a link to a table of doctor/patient ratios?


Our problem is one of regional/class disparities then, right?

The problem is one of regional maldistributions, I think. There are two links of interest:

1. American Board of Medical Specialties
http://www.abms.org/statistics.asp

2. Bureau of Health Professions of the US DHHS
http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce/reports/factbook.htm


Concerning the comment about hiring 1/3 of our physicians from overseas, this is not necessarily a good thing. I have done work overseas and see the dearth of healthcare in Africa and Asia.

Our J-1 visa program was set up to allow FMGs to come here to be trained in our residency programs with the proviso that they return to their home country for two years before attempting to emigrate. The waiver program makes a mockery of this provision.

Here's how it works. A J1 waiver can be applied for if the applicant agrees to work in a "medically underserved" area. What is a medically underserved area? Anywhere where an ad in the local newspaper fails to recruit a US citizen/permanent resident. If you try to recruit a neurosurgeon by placing an add in the local Journal-Star, and no one answers the ad, then the FMG you're considering is elgible for the J-1 waiver. Once the waiver is granted, the waiver holder is on track for a permanent resident I-9 status in three years or so, and then with green card safely in hand, heads off to the burbs where the bucks are.

Net result: The "medically underserved" area has a relatively high turnover, the burbs are overpopulated and we've created a huge brain drain on the rest of the world.

Is this really how we should be doing business? Those who get in think so, but what about their own countries needs? Looking at this from a global perspective we are exacerbating the maldistribution of physicians and sometimes at our own expense.

FWIW
 
3dtp said:
no one answers the ad, then the FMG you're considering is elgible for the J-1 waiver. Once the waiver is granted, the waiver holder is on track for a permanent resident I-9 status in three years or so, and then with green card safely in hand, heads off to the burbs where the bucks are.


this is exactly right. I'm sick of this myth being spread around that FMGs help out rural areas. The net result is temporary at best, because as soon as they get that waiver status and permanent residency (which is a total joke and one of the biggest freaking loopholes in immigration law) they immediately run off to the posh cities.

Take a look at the FMGs serving in rural areas. I guarantee you they've all been there less than 5 years and have no plans to stay there long term. They're not stupid, they're taking advantage of wide open loopholes to get access to the "good life" in the rich suburbs.
 
MacGyver said:
this is exactly right. I'm sick of this myth being spread around that FMGs help out rural areas. They're not stupid, they're taking advantage of wide open loopholes to get access to the "good life" in the rich suburbs.

Interesting. I guess if they were better compensated they'd have no reason to leave the rural areas.
 
For all you xenophobes out there posting utter non-sense on this thread, it wouldn't hurt to look at the facts.

dodo2 said:
One factor that has increased competition this year is that a there is a sharp increase in # of FMGs applying this year. For example, in the days past there were limited number of USMLE centers in Asia. Now they are in every major city. A lot more medical students in Asia take USMLEs and apply for residencies. It used to be very difficult to get a visa for a medical student. Now the US government is inviting them to come.

MacGyver said:
3) The number of FMGs has gone up. As somebody else mentioned above, the ECFMG has made it progressively easier for FMGs to enter hte match. Lots of barriers have been removed, and now more FMGs are applying than ever.

While the statistics for this year will only be known after the match, the NRMP datatables clearly show that there were fewer FMGs in the match last year than five years ago. Yes, you read that right.

Prior to 9/11, in 1999 a total of 13,985 true FMGs entered the match. Last year, by comparison 8,943 did. That is a drop of 5,042. Yes, last year's figure is up a couple hundred from the nadir of 8,572 in 2002 but it is certainly not a flood. (BTW, the US government has not made it any easier to get a visa. If anything, post 9/11, it is much more difficult. For instance, one needs a visa to take the Step 2 CS unless one comes from a visa waiver country.)

USIMGs are admittedly up, but not nearly enough to compensate for the difference from 2,859 to 3,507. That's only 648.

As far as DOs go, they're up from 1,451 to 2,043, meaning an increase of 592 over the same time period.

Regarding the number of J-1 waivers, this was discussed on another thread in great detail. There is no point in rehashing it here.

MacGyver said:
5) Backdoor entry programs. Many US MD programs now have partnerships with foreign countries to allow their FMGs to come in as "american medical graduates" and bypass the ECFMG rules. Some MD programs are outright building new foreign med schools, but attaching the "american university" label to them, thereby granting their graduates american medical student status. Cornell has a program in Qatar, Harvard has a program in United Arab Emirates, Univ of South Florida is starting a program in India.

In addition to being a xenophobe, you are also a troll. That's utter non-sense. Honestly, grow up.

The LCME does not accredit those programs. They are IMGs, like everyone else and can either get ECFMG certified or go through the 5th Pathway. They do not have the advantages of LCME graduates. Those schools, BTW, are listed in IMED.

From http://www.lcme.org/functions2005oct.pdf

LCME said:
The LCME accredits complete and independent medical education programs where students are geographically located in the United States or Canada (1) for their education and that are operated by universities or medical schools that are chartered in the United States or Canada.

[...]

(1) The terms “United States” and “Canada” refer to the geographic locations where citizens are issued passports by the governments of the United States and Canada respectively.

[...]

If a U.S. or Canadian institution that provides an LCME-accredited, M.D.-granting program also offersother medical education programs leading to the M.D. degree that are not accredited by the LCME, the diploma for the latter program must explicitly state the basis of the degree to assure that it will not be confused with the program accredited by the LCME. The LCME, if requested, can provide information and consultation about medical education standards and the process of accreditation for M.D.-granting programs that are offered by institutions located outside the United States and Canada.
 
MacGyver said:
Your implicit assumption is that residency slots are created/reduced to match population supply and demand.

Thats patently false. Residency slots have nothing to do with real doctor supply needed in this country.

Residency slots have EVERYTHING to do with getting more $$$ from the federal government. Thats why every podunk hospital in the country has FP residency slots when in fact most of them dont need it to supply their communities.

Each residency slot is funded at 100k per year courtesy of Medicare. Small hospitals who have no business running a teaching program jump at the chance to get their hands on this money. If you'd let them, they'd open up 100 more FP slots and fill them all with FMGs.

So the high supply of FMGs in this country has NOTHING to do with a real doctor shortage and everything to do with taking the federal government's money.

US has one of the highest doctor/patient ratios in the industrialized world. We dont have a doctor shortage.

Let's see now.
  1. The number of residencies is capped by the federal government.
  2. The AAMC, in its infite wisdom decided that there was a physician shortage a while back and kept the numbers of US allopathic medical graduates very steady.
What has the result been?

Read the outgoing AAMC president's speech:

Jordan J. Cohen MD said:
Challenge number 5 is to enlarge the capacity of LCME-accredited medical schools. As Yogi Berra is famously credited with saying, 'prediction is a risky business, especially about the future.' Nowhere is that adage more apt than in trying to predict our country's future need for physicians.

As I'm sure you all remember, the AAMC, along with most other national organizations, announced with great fanfare less than a decade ago that the U.S. was heading for a huge surplus of physicians.

The assumptions underlying that prediction seemed altogether reasonable at the time-namely, that closed panel HMOs would soon become the dominant mode of healthcare delivery. Since that model uses far fewer physicians than the open-ended, fee-for-service model, we and many others surmised that the U.S. would soon be awash in an abundance of doctors. How quickly things change!

The consensus now is that present trends will soon culminate in a significant shortage of physicians. Workforce gurus now point to the fact that our population is increasing substantially, is growing older, and is using more healthcare services. In the meantime, the overall supply of physicians is barely increasing at all.

Moreover, physicians as a group are growing older even faster than the U.S. population, while younger physicians are choosing to work shorter hours. Convinced that these trends are unstoppable, the AAMC this past February called for an expansion of medical school and GME capacity by some 15 percent over the next 10 years.

Will this be enough? Is 15 percent the right number? Who knows? What we do know is that a 15 percent increase in our graduates will add only about 2500 new MDs to the workforce each year, and only after many years in the pipeline, at that.

Close monitoring of the physician supply and demand will be essential to recalibrate our target, if needed. Should current trends continue, even more doctors may be called for. Alternatively, should the healthcare delivery system be refashioned along more rational lines, fewer may be needed.

Fortunately, the AAMC's new Center for Workforce Studies, which is already making significant contributions to our understanding of this complex issue, is positioned to play a key role in helping us keep tabs on future trends.

But there is much more at stake for us in this arena than just getting the overall number right. We need, as a community, to have a serious discussion about the nature of the educational pipeline that produces our nation's doctors.

Let me ask you a question:

What fraction of the physicians emerging from ACGME-accredited training programs and joining the practitioner workforce each year do you think are graduates of LCME-accredited medical schools?

The answer may surprise you. It certainly surprised me. The answer is 64 percent-less than two thirds.

As Lynn Eckhert noted a few moments ago, of the some 24,000 individuals who funnel through the GME pathway toward independent practice each year, more than one third-over 8,500 individuals-have received their undergraduate medical education from somewhere other than an LCME-accredited school.

To be specific, about 2,700 are graduates of osteopathic medical schools, some 1,300 are U.S. citizen graduates of foreign medical schools, largely in the Caribbean, and well over 4,500 are non-U.S. citizens who attended a wide variety of schools abroad.

As you may know, all the other suppliers of U.S. physicians-the osteopathic schools, the for-profit offshore schools, and many other foreign schools-also see a U.S. doctor shortage on the horizon, and they are rapidly expanding their capacity even as we speak. Five new osteopathic schools have opened in the past 10 years and several more are on the drawing board.

Even more arresting, no fewer than 15 off-shore schools have opened their doors over the same 10-year period and those already in existence are increasing their capacity dramatically. India, and perhaps other foreign countries, see a lucrative export market for physicians and are cranking up their already sizable medical education apparatus.

Hence, if current projections prove accurate-that our health care system will demand and be able to assimilate many more doctors over the next few decades-we could be facing an unwelcomed reality. When considered against the far more dramatic expansion occurring in the non-LCME world, our modest expansion plans could result in our corner of the medical profession becoming a minority presence.

Is this a cause for concern? I certainly think it is. To think otherwise would imply that ACGME training provides graduates of non-LCME schools with all the benefits our students obtain as undergraduates-that by the time residents finish their training, any differences that existed on entry to GME are no longer evident. I just don't believe that.

I think our model of undergraduate medical education offers the public something of special value-that it equips our students with a set of critically important, foundational capabilities and attitudes that the current format of GME does not and cannot provide.

Even if you think otherwise, consider the ethical questions raised by our reliance on foreign schools to educate so many of our country's doctors. Can we, in good conscience, continue to recruit so many highly educated professionals from developing countries who clearly need them much more than we do?

A recent United Nations report captured this issue in its headline: 'Health care brain drain threatens to overwhelm developing world.'

Last week's New England Journal of Medicine echoed that threat and documented its magnitude.

And there is yet another ethical question raised by our current reliance on foreign schools. What is our obligation to qualified American citizens who aspire to become doctors? Rather than consign so many of them to schools in the Caribbean, don't we have a civic responsibility to open our doors to more students who can meet our standards?

Given the need to ensure that the preponderance of tomorrow's doctors are educated in LCME-accredited medical schools, and the need to face up to the ethical implications of a global medical brain drain, I've come to the conclusion that we should begin thinking seriously about expanding our capacity, not by 15 percent, but by something more like 30 percent, or 5,000 additional MDs each year.

Considering the large gap between the number of students we now graduate each year and the much larger number of GME slots that exist, an expansion of this magnitude would still leave room for over 1,000 graduates of foreign schools each year, even if an expanded physician workforce turned out to be unneeded and GME capacity were not increased at all--which seems highly unlikely.

Increasing U.S. medical school capacity by 5,000 students per class is a tall order, to be sure, but not impossible. Consider this scenario: an average increase of 30 students per class for each of our current 125 schools would get us three-quarters of the way to this goal.

Just eight new schools with an average class size of 150 would take us the rest of the way. Our analysis shows that there are plenty of qualified applicants already available. Using MCAT scores as a rough indicator, we could accept 30 percent more students from the current pool and still have an entering class with an average total MCAT score above 26.
 
MacGyver said:
this is exactly right. I'm sick of this myth being spread around that FMGs help out rural areas. The net result is temporary at best, because as soon as they get that waiver status and permanent residency (which is a total joke and one of the biggest freaking loopholes in immigration law) they immediately run off to the posh cities.

Take a look at the FMGs serving in rural areas. I guarantee you they've all been there less than 5 years and have no plans to stay there long term. They're not stupid, they're taking advantage of wide open loopholes to get access to the "good life" in the rich suburbs.



Have worked with (and aware of many more) FMGs in rural areas (Mostly graduates of medical schools in India) who have been there in practice for 10-30 years. "They've all been there less than 5 years" is a foolish statement.
 
MacGyver said:
So what we have is more competition for fewer slots. The biggest threat is the increase in DO programs. They are aggressivley pushing more DO schools. There are already 5 new DO schools in the works and they want to expand beyond that as well. They are doing this so they can increase their "image" in the marketplace. The idiots are going to hurt all of us (MDs and DOs) if they continue to pursue this aggressive strategy.

It also doesnt help when just about every state in the country wants to open up a new med school. As I stated, Florida is going to build 3 new MD schools in the next couple of years.

Florida needs 3 new MD schools. Also, I think the fact that the AMA wants to increase the class size of medical schools across the nation plays into this as well.

But what you have to remember is that these are basically MD residencies. It is a courtesy that we allow DOs to apply, considering how we are not allowed in their residencies. Same with FMGs. As territorial as doctors are about their specialty turf, the last thing the AMA will do is destroy the MD degree by having unmatched MDs. Every MD has an incentive to make MDs look respected, and having lots of unmatched MDs is the last thing anyone involved in the AMA would want.

As much as I disagree with the AMA on several items in their agenda, when it comes down to it, they have been pretty good at defending our turf-- and even where they have failed they at least made a large fight of it. I wouldnt worry too much about the DO expansion or the FMG issue unless you are a DO or FMG, because the announcement of all these new MD schools and increase in MD class size is overseen by the AMA which actually has been pretty competent in general on this issue.
 
gtleeee said:
Have worked with (and aware of many more) FMGs in rural areas (Mostly graduates of medical schools in India) who have been there in practice for 10-30 years. "They've all been there less than 5 years" is a foolish statement.

You are correct. I did a research project on this--the largest bolus, by far, of IMGs was in the late 60s to mid 70s, and many of these physicians went to smaller cities and towns during/after their training. The majority that I know personally have been in practice over 20 years.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
But what you have to remember is that these are basically MD residencies. It is a courtesy that we allow DOs to apply, considering how we are not allowed in their residencies. Same with FMGs. As territorial as doctors are about their specialty turf, the last thing the AMA will do is destroy the MD degree by having unmatched MDs. Every MD has an incentive to make MDs look respected, and having lots of unmatched MDs is the last thing anyone involved in the AMA would want.

As much as I disagree with the AMA on several items in their agenda, when it comes down to it, they have been pretty good at defending our turf-- and even where they have failed they at least made a large fight of it. I wouldnt worry too much about the DO expansion or the FMG issue unless you are a DO or FMG, because the announcement of all these new MD schools and increase in MD class size is overseen by the AMA which actually has been pretty competent in general on this issue.

Couple points:

1. Read the outgoing AAMC president's speech above. It is clear that the AAMC has historically not managed this properly in their own interest.

BTW, if there is an expansion, all this means is that more US premeds will end up at AAMC schools as opposed to going AACOM or abroad.

2. Despite what you may think, they are not US allopathic spots "only". As they are funded by the taxpayer, anyone who has the proper qualifications can apply to them. In fact the regulatory language regarding disbursement of federal funds for this purpose prohibits discrimination.

Aside, note that DOs are highly limited in allopathic surgical specialty and subspecialty residencies due to the policies of the governing boards.
 
Originally Posted by 3dtp
Here's how it works. A J1 waiver can be applied for if the applicant agrees to work in a "medically underserved" area. What is a medically underserved area? Anywhere where an ad in the local newspaper fails to recruit a US citizen/permanent resident. If you try to recruit a neurosurgeon by placing an add in the local Journal-Star, and no one answers the ad, then the FMG you're considering is elgible for the J-1 waiver. Once the waiver is granted, the waiver holder is on track for a permanent resident I-9 status in three years or so, and then with green card safely in hand, heads off to the burbs where the bucks are.

LoL, If it was that easy !

A J1 waiver physician has to work in an area defined by the secretary of health and human services to have a shortage of primary health care providers (HPSA) or is medically underserved (MUA). The way the feds arrive at these determinations is by counting the number of primary care provider FTEs/(county/town/census tract) and comparing it to the national average and minimum numbers they have established. For the MUA status, other metrics go into the equation but it is a similar concept (an area can also be classified MUA by request of the state governor). These shortage determinations are used to steer the allocation of grants for community health centers, 'critical access hospitals' and other safety net facilities.

Obtaining a J1 waiver is a multi-step process involving the department of state, the state health department, the citizenship and immigration service and the department of labor.

In order to obtain permanent residency (green-card) through work as a physician in an underserved area, you have to proove to the feds that you actually worked there full time for 5 years out of 6 years after the initial application is approved.

I wish it was as easy as 'putting an ad in the paper'.
 
Has anyone considered that maybe the real issue here isn't necessarily physician shortage, but actually patient excess?

Maybe if people would do a better job of taking care of themselves and their families in the first place, there wouldn't be such a huge need for more doctors.
 
Stinger86 said:
Has anyone considered that maybe the real issue here isn't necessarily physician shortage, but actually patient excess?

Maybe we should repeal our seat belt and motorcycle-helmet laws.
That should do the trick...
 
funkless said:
Maybe we should repeal our seat belt and motorcycle-helmet laws.
That should do the trick...

Darwinism in action, baby
 
funkless said:
Maybe we should repeal our seat belt and motorcycle-helmet laws.
That should do the trick...
Isn't it shocking that Georgia has a helmet law, but Connecticut doesn't?

I see a lot of motorcyclists with severe head injuries from their bikes. I now refer to them as donorcycles because that's exactly what they are when the rider doesn't wear a helmet.
 
Isn't it shocking that Georgia has a helmet law, but Connecticut doesn't?

CT had a helmet law, but repealed it. God only knows why.
 
I was shocked by that, when my wife and I lived in CT (briefly).

Dirty South, baby!
 
Funny enough, CT also has gun laws a lot more lenient than the other new-england states and NY.
 
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