What's going on with the VA?

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beginner2011

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As a current intern in the VA, I'm curious what folks who have more experience and a broader perspective think about what's going on with the VA right now. Locally, it seems like there's a lot of transitioning going on -- folks with 10+ years of experience who are mid-career leaving the system. I'm also hearing a lot of talk about the consequences for VA employees of the MISSION Act in the short-term, and in the long-term if Trump is re-elected.

Given that I'm coming up on some significant career trajectory decisions over the next couple of years, I'm curious about what folks see on the horizon for the VA. Can any of you more experienced folks please share some insight?

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Just my opinion and experience:

1. After 3-5 years, the salary can be surpassed by many other types of jobs or other health service systems.
2. I think they are getting rid of all in-house C&P...slowly. But maybe totally within the next 5-10 years?
3. I did not like that they now have quite a few have tele-health positions that still require you to work at/report to a facility vs work-at-home. That's ridiculous.
4. Slow to change, bureaucratic nonsense (anyone remember the 8 in 14 measure, or some **** like that?), supervisors or program managers who essentially tell providers to hold the line or do what they are told vs actually spearhead system improvements or fight back, mixed messages re: clinical priorities and what is best clinical care, mixed messages about "panel management", absolutely no utilization review/management system, understaffed in certain areas (especially general MH clinic when I was there), too many Chiefs not enough Indians, etc.
5. Service connection woes?
6. Repetitive presentations/presenting complaints? "Doc, I can't sleep" has got to be the most boring psych thing to do in the world.
7. Too much erroneous documentation.
8. MH suite (what a ****ing travesty of system that is)
9. A very inflexible workday/schedule.
10. Yes, Trump is an idiot, and working for da gobermint is likely to drain you in general. I'm not that familiar with the 'Mission Act" but I wouldn't let that stop you from joining the VA in and of itself. I think an abolition of the current VA system has been talked about for decades. But, at this point, its probably a "too big too fail" kind of system. Which, in some respects, is a shame, because I personally don't think the VA system shouldn't even exist as separate healthcare entity.
 
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Agree with what’s been said here regarding schedule flexibility. Report to work at 8am? No thanks, “the man.”
 
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Agree with what’s been said here regarding schedule flexibility. Report to work at 8am? No thanks, “the man.”

I'm a morning person, I report to work at 6:30-7 for some chart review and report writing before clinical work. To me, it's great to be leaving for home/the gym at 1-2PM.
 
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I'm a morning person, I report to work at 6:30-7 for some chart review and report writing before clinical work. To me, it's great to be leaving for home/the gym at 1-2PM.

In contrast: I like to gym, shower, breakfast, and have a leisurely start to my work day/projects.

Point is, I don't think anyone got into this work to do an inflexible 8-5...and I think the VA is oddly stubborn about operating within "business hours." That is, partly, how the VA got into some of the jams/problems its has had in the past. Human problems don't work like that. And its not like I was volunteering for ER psych/triage coverage when I was there.
 
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Mid career people leave the VA because they can get much better salary and benefits outside the system. Also, MUCH more flexibility.

Can confirm. My job satisfaction, personal happiness, location, benefits, and finances all improved once I left VA.

Biggest reasons I left VA were the overwhelmingly top down management and practice approaches which drained my energy and soul, the inflexible rigidity of the system, clearly unnecessary paperwork and poorly thought out and/or integrated initiatives, lack of happiness amongst staff (difficult to work when everyone around you is miserable a good chunk of the time), a**hole supervisors/managers, and to get paid (salary + benefits) substantially more for the same amount of work, even in a higher COL area.
 
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:shrug: I make six figures and worked from home today. VA isn't so bad in my eyes.
 
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:shrug: I make six figures and worked from home today. VA isn't so bad in my eyes.

Cause you drive around places, and get da scabies....

It's cool bro...you can come over next weekend.
 
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I will say that you are the exception in the VA. Most VAs I was at, they wouldn't even allow 4-10s.

Without getting too much into my personal situation, I have noticed that the east coast VA centers are allowing more tele-health and work from home positions due to lack of office space and the expense of real estate in some areas. This may not hold true for many more affordable areas of the country.
 
Pretty much what everyone else has said, plus...

The state of operations for outpatient psychotherapy (in particular) at VA these days is in a massive state of flux, primarily because:

(1) Clinicians have always been historically overwhelmed in terms of caseload numbers (and complexity) which have made it impossible to utilize the basic standard of care/practice of at least weekly psychotherapy. Because individual caseloads are often in the triple digits (100+ active clients), there's no way logistically to offer weekly therapy. Clinicians raise this to the awareness of supervisors who say 'manage your caseload better' but, often, with an influx of between 3 and 5 NEW psychotherapy intakes/clients entering your caseload PER WEEK, the arithmetic and patient flow just doesn't add up in a way that makes this remotely possible. So, at least at our VA, we have had to have separate clinics/slots for intake, standard (monthly therapy) clients, and intensive (weekly, EBP protocol) clients. This works out to 90-95% of your clientele in monthly therapy and 5-10% in weekly intensive therapy (actual therapy). Now we are a 'pilot site' that has to give self-report symptom questionnaires every session (even non-protocol cases) to our patients and also enter these into a NEW software program ('Behavioral Health Lab') for 'accountability.' And, of course, the fact that very few of the service-connected veterans whose monthly disability check size is dependent on demonstration of disabling psychiatric symptoms are going to self-report significant symptom reduction is never mentioned/discussed for political reasons.

(2) Despite the realities of (1), above, we are getting hammered (because of recent 'accountability' cries in the political sphere) to be more 'effective,' 'evidence-based,' 'accountable,' etc, it terms of demonstrating quantitative self-report measure (PCL-5, PHQ-9, GAD-7) score reduction over time. While part of the organization is zealously pursuing this 'measurement based care' model (which is good, in and of itself) as applied to outpatient psychotherapy, new positions are being funded (from the national level) for **** such as 'drum circles' and other 'alternative healing' approaches (which, of course, are ideologically/politically exempt from accountability in terms of demonstration of efficacy) while rank-and-file outpatient psychologist positions go unfunded because 'there's no money' at the local hospital level to fund those positions. And, of course, when clinicians complain about caseload overload, they're blamed/shamed for not being 'effective' at 'panel management.'

(3) The comment of 'too many chiefs, not enough indians' is spot on. At our hospital, under the 'Mental Health' line, less than one third (at most) of our FTE's actually do patient care. The majority of the positions are administrative, clerical, pompom wavers/ sloganeers, and various and sundry bull**** PR positions and most of these are people (LCSW's, generally) who COULD be seeing a caseload (or mini-caseload) of clients and helping out. Instead, they spend all their time coming up with 'good ideas' ('good idea faeries') and swamping clinicians with layer after layer of novel policies/procedures that they concoct, which leads to more paperwork/burnout, etc. Depending on how you count it, any single outpatient clinician has about 30+ 'bosses' at all levels of the organization (national, regional (VISN), local site) all busy (in this day and age) creating new 'initiatives' and policies/procedures (to 'prove' their worth to the organization) which are often contradictory and put the individual clinician in a bind at the level of specific service care delivery.

(4) Because the larger VA system of care is so 'broken' (for lack of a better term), as the veteran's psychologist (who always has regular hourly meetings with them), you end up having to do a lot of ad hoc 'case management' with respect to such things as 'I'm homeless,' 'I'm out of my (psych) meds,' 'I have sleep apnea so bad that (as a long-distance trucker), I'm falling asleep at the wheel when I try to drive,' etc., etc.. Yeah, yeah--boundaries, I know but, Jeez...if I didn't step in and help vets with these sorts of serious issues it would make actual psychotherapy impossible as these are 'burning fires' in their lives (some dangerous) that I can't just ignore. Of course, I try to avoid triangulation with another provider whenever possible and always try to help the veteran handle their own affairs/requests with the other providers, but it's a balancing act.

It is a very chaotic time, especially for outpatient psychotherapists. The 'good' news is that such a highly charged unstable structure CANNOT last so it will either implode or get better in the long term. But, for the moment, seismic shifts are underway and, above ground, are roving bands of non-practicing 'excellentologists' and 'expertologists' busy barking ridiculous orders to overwhelmed clinicians.
 
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Just my opinion and experience:

1. After 3-5 years, the salary can be surpassed by many other types of jobs or other health service systems.
2. I think they are getting rid of all in-house C&P...slowly. But maybe totally within the next 5-10 years?
3. I did not like that they now have quite a few have tele-health positions that still require you to work at/report to a facility vs work-at-home. That's ridiculous.
4. Slow to change, bureaucratic nonsense (anyone remember the 8 in 14 measure, or some **** like that?), supervisors or program managers who essentially tell providers to hold the line or do what they are told vs actually spearhead system improvements or fight back, mixed messages re: clinical priorities and what is best clinical care, mixed messages about "panel management", absolutely no utilization review/management system, understaffed in certain areas (especially general MH clinic when I was there), too many Chiefs not enough Indians, etc.
5. Service connection woes?
6. Repetitive presentations/presenting complaints? "Doc, I can't sleep" has got to be the most boring psych thing to do in the world.
7. Too much erroneous documentation.
8. MH suite (what a ****ing travesty of system that is)
9. A very inflexible workday/schedule.
10. Yes, Trump is an idiot, and working for da gobermint is likely to drain you in general. I'm not that familiar with the 'Mission Act" but I wouldn't let that stop you from joining the VA in and of itself. I think an abolition of the current VA system has been talked about for decades. But, at this point, its probably a "too big too fail" kind of system. Which, in some respects, is a shame, because I personally don't think the VA system shouldn't even exist as separate healthcare entity.

In house C&P is getting phased out within a year, or so we've been told. At least at our facility.

I have more to add to this thread but I'll have to wait until the weekend's over. Don't want to think about this stuff right now. :)
 
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In what world is it ethical to have a 100 client caseload? Am I being naive? Are there not guidelines from the APA regarding caseload limits?

At that point you are seeing clients once per month, maybe, let alone the expected drop in quality of care for each client.
 
In what world is it ethical to have a 100 client caseload? Am I being naive? Are there not guidelines from the APA regarding caseload limits?

At that point you are seeing clients once per month, maybe, let alone the expected drop in quality of care for each client.
A response to my direct inquiry about 'what would be (even in theory) considered (by admin, my supervisors) an upper limit to panel size or caseload numbers' I was told...wait for it...

"It is every clinician's responsibility to manage their caseload."

Arithmetic doesn't matter. Numbers don't matter; logic doesn't matter.

Rate of patient flow in compared with time needed to process them 'out' (even with an idealized '12 weeks to cure') framework...doesn't matter.

No VA functionary (supervisor, admin, or day-to-day bureaucrat) is able or willing to have a meaningful conversation about arithmetic (yet they babble on about 'metrics' all the time to the point of a numbers fetish). They can't even handle conversations such as 'I spend an entire day doing other duties in a different clinic, so only, 4 out of five (or 80 percent of days) are available for me to see patients in this particular clinic. Therefore, my 'productivity' estimates need to be adjusted to 80 percent of 100 percent for that reason.' The probability that they can conceptualize or follow along with a discussion of a dynamic system where numbers are constantly in flux (patient inflow vs. outflow) is nil.

They are not even willing to commit to, 'sure, more than 5000 people in your caseload would be too many for you to properly treat/handle.'

Welcome to the VA.
 
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In what world is it ethical to have a 100 client caseload? Am I being naive? Are there not guidelines from the APA regarding caseload limits?

At that point you are seeing clients once per month, maybe, let alone the expected drop in quality of care for each client.

I've seen client loads much larger than 100 for many people. It is routine in some parts of the industry. APA guidelines are vague for a reason and quality is not reimbursed in our current system.
 
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In what world is it ethical to have a 100 client caseload? Am I being naive? Are there not guidelines from the APA regarding caseload limits?

At that point you are seeing clients once per month, maybe, let alone the expected drop in quality of care for each client.
Moreover, the following diagram (which basically depicts the actual organizational structure--or at least how your average outpatient psychotherapist experiences it) illustrates the bind that the clinician experiences being caught in-between 30+ supervisors (from above) and 100+ clients (to treat). With little accountability at the top (admin/supervisors) and often chaos (malingering, symptom over-reporting, personality disorders, lack of responsibility) coming up from the 'bottom' (caseload/clients), it's one helluva ride for the clinician:


30+ 'bosses' at the top (supervisors, admins, national, VISN, local pompom wavers and 'expertologists')
..................................................................................\ ............|.........../.......................................................................................................
.....................................................................................\..........|........./.........................................................................................................
.......................................................................................\........|......./...........................................................................................................
..................................................................1 outpatient psychotherapist.........................................................................................
......................................................................................../.......|......\............................................................................................................
...................................................................................../..........|.........\.........................................................................................................
.................................................................................../............|............\......................................................................................................
100+ ACTIVE patients; 300+ patients for whom therapist is the identified "Mental Health Treatment Coordinator"
 
Big Yikes. I assumed maximum caseload would be a negotiable element in contract talks. But perhaps not all the time.
 
Big Yikes. I assumed maximum caseload would be a negotiable element in contract talks. But perhaps not all the time.

Well, its not a contract. Its a job description and you have very little say in it.
 
My take:

1) consider who the recruiters went after in high school. Notice they didn’t go after: the smartest kids, the rich kids, the kids with lots of options, etc? You wanna spend your time with the people the govt basically said, “hey, are you prone to violence, not academically inclined, have limited options, etc?”.

2) the VA is inundated with people form #1 that were straight up lied to. Many were told that 4 years in the military was the same as 4 years in university. That’s not true. And if they’re vaguely intelligent, they’re pissed about that.

3) Niw imagine having an FSIQ of like 85, and you’re making like $30k, but you’re also getting $25k in tax free housing alllowances for you and your unemployed spouse. Now imagine you get out. And you’re trained to fight people. And you are used to pulling in the equivalent of$90k (ie 30k taxed; 25k untaxed, etc). That’s who yuh are treating.

4) now imagine the Dude ffrom # 3 gets out is is paid 80% of his pay from “disabilities”. He’s gonna go for the invisibility disabilities, right? Back pain and ptsd. Try convincing those dudes that they are getting well. “Hey, you have no free market skills, wan tell me something that’s gonna reduce your income?’” Hard pass
 
My take:

1) consider who the recruiters went after in high school. Notice they didn’t go after: the smartest kids, the rich kids, the kids with lots of options, etc? You wanna spend your time with the people the govt basically said, “hey, are you prone to violence, not academically inclined, have limited options, etc?”.

2) the VA is inundated with people form #1 that were straight up lied to. Many were told that 4 years in the military was the same as 4 years in university. That’s not true. And if they’re vaguely intelligent, they’re pissed about that.

3) Niw imagine having an FSIQ of like 85, and you’re making like $30k, but you’re also getting $25k in tax free housing alllowances for you and your unemployed spouse. Now imagine you get out. And you’re trained to fight people. And you are used to pulling in the equivalent of$90k (ie 30k taxed; 25k untaxed, etc). That’s who yuh are treating.

4) now imagine the Dude ffrom # 3 gets out is is paid 80% of his pay from “disabilities”. He’s gonna go for the invisibility disabilities, right? Back pain and ptsd. Try convincing those dudes that they are getting well. “Hey, you have no free market skills, wan tell me something that’s gonna reduce your income?’” Hard pass

I've actually seen this in a number of people, but more in the younger pop (Gulf War onward) with the Vietnam era guys being a bit more of a mix. WWII and Korean War era veterans are different ball game. Higher SES is more likely in this pop. I often try to transfer the younger ones ASAP, because they are a pain to deal with. Can't be motivated to get off the couch, but no problem with being motivated to file a complaint about you. This is why general mental health positions tend to be higher turnover.
 
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I've actually seen this in a number of people, but more in the younger pop (Gulf War onward) with the Vietnam era guys being a bit more of a mix. WWII and Korean War era veterans are different ball game. Higher SES is more likely in this pop. I often try to transfer the younger ones ASAP, because they are a pain to deal with. Can't be motivated to get off the couch, but no problem with being motivated to file a complaint about you. This is why general mental health positions tend to be higher turnover.

ueah, the Vietnam era a hole with a BMI of like 39. Pretty sure that your hypertension, obstructive sleep apnea, diabetes mellitus, etc... that isn’t due to some toxic exposure like 40 years ago, Buddy. Also pretty sure your lack of retirement savings at 65+ isn’t a psych issue. Take some responsibility for yourself.
 
ueah, the Vietnam era a hole with a BMI of like 39. Pretty sure that your hypertension, obstructive sleep apnea, diabetes mellitus, etc... that isn’t due to some toxic exposure like 40 years ago, Buddy. Also pretty sure your lack of retirement savings at 65+ isn’t a psych issue. Take some responsibility for yourself.

65+?, I have met guys like this under age 35 seeking home bound status.
 
65+?, I have met guys like this under age 35 seeking home bound status.

You ever see some dude go out to the dating life, size up the competition, decide that they can’t compete, and hire some “escorts”?

Don’t know why that comes to mind.
 
You ever see some dude go out to the dating life, size up the competition, decide that they can’t compete, and hire some “escorts”?

Don’t know why that comes to mind.

Back in my VA days, we had a dude who, after a couple years of appealing his full SC status, got six figures of back pay all at once, flew to Vegas, and blew it all on hookers and drugs in less than a week. That's your tax dollars hard at work, folks.
 
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Back in my VA days, we had a dude who, after a couple years of appealing his full SC status, got six figures of back pay all at once, flew to Vegas, and blew it all on hookers and drugs in less than a week. That's your tax dollars hard at work, folks.
We have either met the same man, or this is a more common occurrence than I'd like to believe.
 
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We have either met the same man, or this is a more common occurrence than I'd like to believe.

Most likely the latter. Just ask anyone who's worked in Dual Disorders or polytruama teams in the VA, we've all got similar stories, no matter which VA you've worked in.
 
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The very existence of Las Vegas should tell you it is more common than you think.
And legend has it that the same dude (firmly in pre-contemplation) still blames his psychotherapist and the VA for his woes to this day and is seeking full-time 'caregiver support' and a 'service dog' with a side of 'medical marijuana' yet refuses all referrals to SUDS services outright.
 
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It is a very chaotic time, especially for outpatient psychotherapists. The 'good' news is that such a highly charged unstable structure CANNOT last so it will either implode or get better in the long term. But, for the moment, seismic shifts are underway and, above ground, are roving bands of non-practicing 'excellentologists' and 'expertologists' busy barking ridiculous orders to overwhelmed clinicians.

Would it be fair to say that if Trump is re-elected then the writing is on the wall for the VA in the near-term? I'm trying to understand the VA-specific dynamics, and there also seems to be a larger picture that folks aren't directly acknowledging. I've heard the analogy that the VA is like a big ship, and it only changes course slowly (and this is a strength and a weakness of the system). It seems like a lot of folks comments so far have been about the within-system dynamics being problematic (e.g., excessively large caseloads, administrative bloat, etc.), and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the bigger picture of whether the ship is in the process of being dismantled.

On the one hand, if we're looking at Healthcare For All from a Democrat in 2021, how can we expect that to affect VA positions? On the other hand, if we're looking at MISSION Act on steroids from Trump in 2021, what might be the effects of that?


My take:

1) consider who the recruiters went after in high school. Notice they didn’t go after: the smartest kids, the rich kids, the kids with lots of options, etc? You wanna spend your time with the people the govt basically said, “hey, are you prone to violence, not academically inclined, have limited options, etc?”.

2) the VA is inundated with people form #1 that were straight up lied to. Many were told that 4 years in the military was the same as 4 years in university. That’s not true. And if they’re vaguely intelligent, they’re pissed about that.

3) Niw imagine having an FSIQ of like 85, and you’re making like $30k, but you’re also getting $25k in tax free housing alllowances for you and your unemployed spouse. Now imagine you get out. And you’re trained to fight people. And you are used to pulling in the equivalent of$90k (ie 30k taxed; 25k untaxed, etc). That’s who yuh are treating.

4) now imagine the Dude ffrom # 3 gets out is is paid 80% of his pay from “disabilities”. He’s gonna go for the invisibility disabilities, right? Back pain and ptsd. Try convincing those dudes that they are getting well. “Hey, you have no free market skills, wan tell me something that’s gonna reduce your income?’” Hard pass

I may be naive and idealistic, but I think the VA is a setting that provides uniquely strong support for people who value social justice. Yes, many Veterans come from disadvantaged backgrounds or are members of marginalized/oppressed groups. Also, many of the people who receive care at the VA were lied to by the DOD and/or recruiters (and are justifiably pissed). Yes, the military-industrial complex has chewed them up and spit them out. Yes, the system is structured in such a way that there are perverse incentives that functionally reinforce therapy interfering behaviors.

However, if I find it meaningful to work with marginalized folks, then I will be hard-pressed to find another institution that will pay me relatively well to do this work while also providing wrap-around care. Am I off-base?


Seriously- why do any of you continue to do this? You all sound so defeated/demoralized.

I'm curious to hear answers to this, as well.
 
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However, if I find it meaningful to work with marginalized folks, then I will be hard-pressed to find another institution that will pay me relatively well to do this work while also providing wrap-around care. Am I off-base?

There kinds of jobs are EVERYWHERE, you don't need to be in the VA to do this kind of work. Whether or not you will be paid well for it depends on your definition of "well."
 
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Would it be fair to say that if Trump is re-elected then the writing is on the wall for the VA in the near-term? I'm trying to understand the VA-specific dynamics, and there also seems to be a larger picture that folks aren't directly acknowledging. I've heard the analogy that the VA is like a big ship, and it only changes course slowly (and this is a strength and a weakness of the system). It seems like a lot of folks comments so far have been about the within-system dynamics being problematic (e.g., excessively large caseloads, administrative bloat, etc.), and I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the bigger picture of whether the ship is in the process of being dismantled.

On the one hand, if we're looking at Healthcare For All from a Democrat in 2021, how can we expect that to affect VA positions? On the other hand, if we're looking at MISSION Act on steroids from Trump in 2021, what might be the effects of that?




I may be naive and idealistic, but I think the VA is a setting that provides uniquely strong support for people who value social justice. Yes, many Veterans come from disadvantaged backgrounds or are members of marginalized/oppressed groups. Also, many of the people who receive care at the VA were lied to by the DOD and/or recruiters (and are justifiably pissed). Yes, the military-industrial complex has chewed them up and spit them out. Yes, the system is structured in such a way that there are perverse incentives that functionally reinforce therapy interfering behaviors.

However, if I find it meaningful to work with marginalized folks, then I will be hard-pressed to find another institution that will pay me relatively well to do this work while also providing wrap-around care. Am I off-base?




I'm curious to hear answers to this, as well.

I think we may have different definitions of "social justice" then. Besides that, I didn't really get into this field to "do social justice." Thats a thing that is waaaay beyond one health service provider working at the individual level.

I also don't think that an organization that cant or won't change and adapt relatively quickly is a good thing at all.

If you are worried about the VA disappearing, I dont think you have to worry about that. However, the hiring booms of the mid 2000s and 2010s are probably gone.

Also, the vast majority of people (including me) who responded no longer work at the VA. For me, it was certainly about the things I said, but also because I just didn't want to do that kind of work anymore, in or out of the VA.
 
...However, if I find it meaningful to work with marginalized folks, then I will be hard-pressed to find another institution that will pay me relatively well to do this work while also providing wrap-around care. Am I off-base?

I work with a marginalized population in dire need of services. They are generally very happy to come in. My clients are fun (we often laugh out loud many times throughout our sessions). We (may agency) pays very well, has very good benefits (other than pension, comparable or better than the VA), reasonable billable requirements, very nice bonus structure, pays for license and certification, would pay for additional BCBA courses/credentialling, and pays for all ceus, including conference attendance and expenses. We cannot find another psychologist to work in my region (which is somewhat rural, but quite nice and only 1.5 hours from Boston and 2.5 from NYC, with plenty of nature and outdoorsy stuff nearby). That's why it kills me to repeatedly hear from psychologists who are unhappy at work. You probably have options. I have an 8 month waitlist you help me with, and we'd even train you!
 
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Seriously- why do any of you continue to do this? You all sound so defeated/demoralized.

For me this is a complicated question. I find my particular position (hidden away at a CBOC) really keeps me under the radar as far as BS and I enjoy the work with my veterans. As a geriatric psychologist I kind of work for the government no matter what and working in the private sector has many different headaches. The issues highlighted are low SES issues that can happen anywhere (see recent responses fo doing SSDI evals). There are also high SES issues I have experienced (wanting white glove service while using medicare, etc). We cannot all work with perfect patients all the time. Eventually, I may veer away from my current geriatrics type work to higher paying work in a nice office once my financial picture changes (investments are better funded, mortgage paid off, etc). Currently, the geographic arbitrage my position offers me is pretty nice for building wealth and raising a family. That may change in the future and I will deal with it as it happens.

As far as Trump and the Mission Act. I think mental health is the last thing that will be touched. I think Medicare For All will hurt psychology more than the Mission Act.
 
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There kinds of jobs are EVERYWHERE, you don't need to be in the VA to do this kind of work. Whether or not you will be paid well for it depends on your definition of "well."

I think a rough estimate from a previous thread was that around year 5 a reasonably conservative estimate (using the lower end of the estimated billable hour) is that you're getting paid about 80% of what you'd receive for similar work hours doing independent practice. (see this post)

I'm also not aware of another setting where those first two criteria are met (population & compensation), in addition to wrap-around health care services (e.g., primary care, specialty medicine, rehab, etc.). I'd also add opportunities for teaching/mentorship and research. I don't think there are many settings that meet those four criteria. I'm sure there are some exceptions, and would love to hear more about them.


I think we may have different definitions of "social justice" then. Besides that, I didn't really get into this field to "do social justice." Thats a thing that is waaaay beyond one health service provider working at the individual level.
Not to derail this thread, but I'm curious how you would define social justice? Off the top of my head, I would say it's important to me that the work I do contributes to the reduction of systematic oppression and marginalization of people. In some ways, I see providing psychotherapy to the highest bidder as placing the thumb further on the scale in favor of people who already have a lot of systemic advantages. When I say I value social justice and want that to inform the work that I do as a professional, I'm saying I want to do something that will help disrupt the cycle of marginalization and oppression (i.e., injustice), not amplify/escalate it.

I also don't think that an organization that cant or won't change and adapt relatively quickly is a good thing at all.
I think the implication is that being slow to respond can reduce the damage to the ship during periods of time where the captain is guiding the boat toward destruction either with intent or by ignorance.
 
I think a rough estimate from a previous thread was that around year 5 a reasonably conservative estimate (using the lower end of the estimated billable hour) is that you're getting paid about 80% of what you'd receive for similar work hours doing independent practice. (see this post)

I'm also not aware of another setting where those first two criteria are met (population & compensation), in addition to wrap-around health care services (e.g., primary care, specialty medicine, rehab, etc.). I'd also add opportunities for teaching/mentorship and research. I don't think there are many settings that meet those four criteria. I'm sure there are some exceptions, and would love to hear more about them.



Not to derail this thread, but I'm curious how you would define social justice? Off the top of my head, I would say it's important to me that the work I do contributes to the reduction of systematic oppression and marginalization of people. In some ways, I see providing psychotherapy to the highest bidder as placing the thumb further on the scale in favor of people who already have a lot of systemic advantages. When I say I value social justice and want that to inform the work that I do as a professional, I'm saying I want to do something that will help disrupt the cycle of marginalization and oppression (i.e., injustice), not amplify/escalate it.


I think the implication is that being slow to respond can reduce the damage to the ship during periods of time where the captain is guiding the boat toward destruction either with intent or by ignorance.

I really missed the boat in terms of the whole social justice emphasis psychology training programs seem to stress now. It simply was not part of my training.

Doing something for "social justice" is important to me personally and in my Catholic faith, but I don't feel that I have to do this in my job necessarily. Providing, or helping to shape quality, evidence-based care is enough for me.
 
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I really missed the boat in terms of the whole social justice emphasis psychology training programs seem to stress now. It simply was not part of my training.

Doing something for "social justice" is important to me personally and in my Catholic faith, but I don't feel that I have to do this in my job necessarily. Providing, or helping to shape quality, evidence-based care is enough for me.
Ironically, I'm not Catholic, but my time in Jesuit schools instilled an appreciation for the principle. Social justice per se was not a part of my doctoral training, although it's certainly part of the larger US culture now in a way that I don't think it was 10 years ago.
 
I really missed the boat in terms of the whole social justice emphasis psychology training programs seem to stress now. It simply was not part of my training.

Doing something for "social justice" is important to me personally and in my Catholic faith, but I don't feel that I have to do this in my job necessarily. Providing, or helping to shape quality, evidence-based care is enough for me.
Moreover, I find 'justice' (particularly social justice) to be a very complex and debatable thing to instantiate and believe that smart, well-educated, and well-meaning people can vary considerably with respect to what they consider 'just' conditions in the world or in society.
 
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Moreover, I find 'justice' (particularly social justice) to be a very complex and debatable thing to instantiate and believe that smart, well-educated, and well-meaning people can vary considerably with respect to what they consider 'just' conditions in the world or in society.
ANd sometimes a job is just a job and doesn’t need to fulfill all of our aspirations for the universe
 
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I really missed the boat in terms of the whole social justice emphasis psychology training programs seem to stress now. It simply was not part of my training.

Doing something for "social justice" is important to me personally and in my Catholic faith, but I don't feel that I have to do this in my job necessarily. Providing, or helping to shape quality, evidence-based care is enough for me.
Moreover, I find 'justice' (particularly social justice) to be a very complex and debatable thing to instantiate and believe that smart, well-educated, and well-meaning people can vary considerably with respect to what they consider 'just' conditions in the world or in society.
ANd sometimes a job is just a job and doesn’t need to fulfill all of our aspirations for the universe

Maybe we can continue this conversation in another thread:

Conversation on social justice and the role of psychologists

As far as Trump and the Mission Act. I think mental health is the last thing that will be touched. I think Medicare For All will hurt psychology more than the Mission Act.

How do you see MFA hurting psychology? I could see it reducing demand for psychologists and increasing demand for masters level providers, but I don't believe that necessarily hurts psychologists. All the psychologists doing independent practice in metro areas that I know are denying/referring upwards of 10+ people per week. I see MFA as a having at most a marginal cost for some psychologists in some areas, and for the vast majority a net-neutral effect. Aware of my practical ignorance here.
 
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Maybe we can continue this conversation in another thread:

Conversation on social justice and the role of psychologists



How do you see MFA hurting psychology? I could see it reducing demand for psychologists and increasing demand for masters level providers, but I don't believe that necessarily hurts psychologists. All the psychologists doing independent practice in metro areas that I know are denying/referring upwards of 10+ people per week. I see MFA as a having at most a marginal cost for some psychologists in some areas, and for the vast majority a net-neutral effect. Aware of my practical ignorance here.
Banning private care/insurance is definitely a harm
 
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