Whats Important For Residency?

[obiwan]

What is the order of importance for paramters that are taken into account for a medical student for residency?

grades/ step 1/ extracurriculars /letters of rec/ etc,

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[DarksideAllstar]

My take:
To get the interview...
1. Step 1
2. 3rd year clerkship grades, and more specifically grades in specialty you will
be entering
3. AOA status
4. Letters of rec
5. Research/publications (more important if related to the specialty which
you are applying to)
6. Basic science grades
7. Personal statement

After you get the interview, the most important thing is how well you interview. Please note that in some instances an away rotation at a program may help overcome some of these deficiencies.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

My take:
To get the interview...
1. Step 1
2. 3rd year clerkship grades, and more specifically grades in specialty you will
be entering
3. AOA status
4. Letters of rec
5. Research/publications (more important if related to the specialty which
you are applying to)
6. Basic science grades
7. Personal statement

After you get the interview, the most important thing is how well you interview. Please note that in some instances an away rotation at a program may help overcome some of these deficiencies.

That's probably how I'd list them as well, at least if you're a US allo student gunning for most residencies. I'd add Step II CK to the bottom. For the uber-competitive stuff it seems like AOA, research, and LORs/personal relationships are more of a factor, since there's really not much difference between a 250 vs. 260 or 3rd vs 5th in your class.

 

[naegleria brain]

competitive fields are

1. boards
2. 3rd yr grades/clin evals
3. LORs

once you get the interview, it's nearly completely what they thought of you.

instead of asking the people here, many of whom are quite possibly posers, just call the field of interest's director/faculty and sit down and simply ask.

theyre not that intimidating, they dont hate you, and they generally WANT to help you. grow a pair now so you can use them later

 

[Tired]

My take:
To get the interview...
1. Step 1
2. 3rd year clerkship grades, and more specifically grades in specialty you will
be entering
3. AOA status
4. Letters of rec
5. Research/publications (more important if related to the specialty which
you are applying to)
6. Basic science grades
7. Personal statement

After you get the interview, the most important thing is how well you interview. Please note that in some instances an away rotation at a program may help overcome some of these deficiencies.

Agree almost 100%. I'd probably flip research with LOR (and possibly even put it above AOA), but I suppose it depends what field you're looking at.

Also, the comment about away rotations is commonly overlooked or dismissed, but I think those of us who have gone through the process with their class will affirm just how important it is.

 

[soeagerun2or]

Can you make a pie chart to illustrate the relative weight of each?

 

[remo]

How do you get AOA? Is it based on grades the first 2 years?

 

[Law2Doc]

Can you make a pie chart to illustrate the relative weight of each?

I doubt anyone has very exact data to do this. The nice thing about just making a list is folks can agree on what is "more important" without having to get into the issue of "how much more important".

But as others have suggested, the biggest slices will likely be Step 1, rotation evals, and personal relationships/"pull" (including people from away rotations "liking you", as Tired suggested); Things like research/publications, LORs and AOA will be the next sized slices, and everything else will be relatively tiny and leaving you hungry for more pie.

 

[Tired]

How do you get AOA? Is it based on grades the first 2 years?

You are elected by the AOA chapter at your school. Different schools use different criteria. Ask around at your institution.

 

[cbass1350]

the most contributing factor in getting a good residency is...

not being an FMG

 

[Long Dong]

Sometimes who you know (LOR, research/pub, away rotation) can trump all the rest, if you at least make the cut off board score.

 

[G.O.A.T.]

But as others have suggested, the biggest slices will likely be Step 1, rotation evals, and personal relationships/"pull" (including people from away rotations "liking you", as Tired suggested); Things like research/publications, LORs and AOA will be the next sized slices, and everything else will be relatively tiny and leaving you hungry for more pie.

so are you saying there is still hope for me not being forced into fp even though i have horrible basic sciences grades? if, and i know that's a big if, i can do decent on step one i may still have some options?

 

[soeagerun2or]

so are you saying there is still hope for me not being forced into fp even though i have horrible basic sciences grades? if, and i know that's a big if, i can do decent on step one i may still have some options?

Horrible grades or failed classes?

The pie chart has a footnote stating things such as failing Step 1, failing classes, disciplinary actions, institutional letters in your file, or similar no-no's outweigh the whole rest of the chart on positives.

 

[Law2Doc]

so are you saying there is still hope for me not being forced into fp even though i have horrible basic sciences grades? if, and i know that's a big if, i can do decent on step one i may still have some options?

If you can do decently on Step 1 and rotations, you probably still will have options. Different doors close at different times. Poor grades in the first two years probably close the doors to derm and optho and a couple others like that, as well as to certain top programs in various other fields. But there are certainly people with rough starts who end up doing other than primary care. Obviously failing classes limits things further, but there are still multiple less competitive paths besides FP. And FWIW, some people actually like certain aspects of FP -- if you can get past the low salary issue.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

instead of asking the people here, many of whom are quite possibly posers

Speak for yourself.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

You are elected by the AOA chapter at your school. Different schools use different criteria. Ask around at your institution.

I was elected to AOA last fall and had the opportunity to participate in the elections committee for Junior AOA last week. Essentially, my school did this:

1. Ranked the top 10 people in the class based on GPA.
2. Each person had their extracurriculars, Step 1 scores, and Clerkship grades listed adjacent to their name.
3. Faculty and student committee members were free to nominate people for a vote to elect.

Generally, students without ANY extracurricular activities were frowned upon, although we did elect one person who had only 3 EC's (which were of the less time consuming variety). They were important to have done for consideration though, as one person was passed over because he hadn't done anything. AOA can be a popularity contest to an extent. After looking at your academic accomplishments, it can be a very very subjective process.

 

[Critical Mass]

Here is AOA at my school:

Look at grades at the end of M2 (junior) or M3 (senior). Does student have any grade lower than A? If yes, then no AOA for student. If more than the maximum amount of students (16%?) have straight A's, then they look at percentage grades in specific classes. That's it. In other words, they favor tradition/hubris over the actual mission of the AOA, so it is a sham just like the curriculum.

 

[Chulito]

Here is AOA at my school:

Look at grades at the end of M2 (junior) or M3 (senior). Does student have any grade lower than A? If yes, then no AOA for student. If more than the maximum amount of students (16%?) have straight A's, then they look at percentage grades in specific classes. That's it. In other words, they favor tradition/hubris over the actual mission of the AOA, so it is a sham just like the curriculum.

What is the actual mission of the AOA?

 

[deleted77919]

AOA at our school isn't released until interviews for residency are done (or nearly so).

There is no junior AOA.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

What is the actual mission of the AOA?

Check it out:
http://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/#SlideFrame_1

 

[Ischemia]

Darkside, I'm curious: On that list you mentioned whereby step 1 etc were next to the top 10, were names blinded and instead only an ID number of sorts shown?

Or, were actual names shown?

 

[naegleria brain]

Speak for yourself.

i pose as a medical student. are you an admissions coordinator? then please do share!

i'm simply trying to say that such issues often come up, but the answer is down the street from us at our own medical schools. it'd be wise to get the answer from them, then compare findings here and share our discoveries, rather than assume a medical student has greater knowledge of the process than an actual residency director.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Incidentally, what's the best way to get an away rotation at a competitive location such as Barnes-Jewish? Better to have a great CV, or better to just know someone?

 

[Hednej]

Another question (pertaining to the interviews):

For the med school interviews, I felt like all the interviewees were not equal (this is my personal feeling and debatable). Meaning that even if you did your best didn't mean that you were going to get in.

Is this the same for the residency interviews? If you get an interview, are you on equal footing with everybody else?

My intuition tells me no, b/c if everyone had an equal chance, BWH wouldn't be filled with Harvard kids.

 

[deleted109597]

Is this the same for the residency interviews? If you get an interview, are you on equal footing with everybody else?

Hardly. They like to pretend that it is that way, but kids with higher scores that are not complete tools during the interview will get ranked higher, unless the program is one of those "we like people who fit in the community" places (read, low scores for residents). Life sucks, then you die.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

Darkside, I'm curious: On that list you mentioned whereby step 1 etc were next to the top 10, were names blinded and instead only an ID number of sorts shown?

Or, were actual names shown?

My school used actual names. Many students have advocates on the committee whom raved about their performance and that tended to help them get the nomination and subsequent vote. I didn't know any of the applicants personally, so I based my decisions on academic merit and EC stuff alone.

Is this the same for the residency interviews? If you get an interview, are you on equal footing with everybody else?

Yes and no. If you can make it to an interview, you have already made it passed the initial numbers game. The issue is, when the program is making its ROL they are going to look at EVERYTHING in your app, including your interviewer's impression of you. By having good numbers, LORs, etc you can probably have a more mediocre interview performance and still be ranked with a decent shot to match. If you have a more average application, you would need a good interview day to make up for your other deficiencies. I still see the edge going to people who look great on paper, as long as they aren't completely inept at social interaction (which some surprisingly are).

Incidentally, what's the best way to get an away rotation at a competitive location such as Barnes-Jewish? Better to have a great CV, or better to just know someone?

Applying early is probably the best way to go about getting the institution and time frame you want. Every place asks for transcripts amongst other things, but ultimately they probably give preference to people applying to their programs for residency (I saw this as a "check box" question on my away applications) without giving much consideration as to whether you have an outstanding CV. One program asked for my letters of rec, but I'm not sure how this impacted me being offered a rotation. Keep in mind, most programs will give preference to their own students before taking visiting students, which could hamper your ability to get the specific month that you want.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

i pose as a medical student. are you an admissions coordinator? then please do share!

i'm simply trying to say that such issues often come up, but the answer is down the street from us at our own medical schools. it'd be wise to get the answer from them, then compare findings here and share our discoveries, rather than assume a medical student has greater knowledge of the process than an actual residency director.

A few things:
1. No one has proclaimed that they are a program director on this thread. Some of us have gone through this process and have some general ideas of what programs covet based on our experiences. None of us has said "This is exactly what programs are looking for." So I find your comment about us being posers both obnoxious and self serving.
2. Whether or not a PD will be honest with a medical student about what is important for residency applications is debatable and idealistic at best. Also, what one program covets in an applicant may not be what every program wants. Don't think that just because you contact a PD that he will be forthcoming about what goes on at meetings to discuss the programs ROL.

ALL things posted on these forums should be taken with a grain of salt, so I find your comments unnecessary.

 

[Hednej]

So it seems that the interview can more hurt you than help you, right?

 

[soeagerun2or]

So it seems that the interview can more hurt you than help you, right?

If you're bad at interviewing. If you're good it would actually help you since, at some programs, making the cut puts everyone on a level playing field.

 

[Hednej]

If you're bad at interviewing. If you're good it would actually help you since, at some programs, making the cut puts everyone on a level playing field.

Like I said, I don't know about the residencies, but for medical school, the playing field was anything but level.

 

[Gabujabu]

Like I said, I don't know about the residencies, but for medical school, the playing field was anything but level.

Tell me about it. At one medical school, one of the two interviewers ended our conversation with "see you at second look." The other said that he had a pleasant conversation and gave me his business card in case I had any questions...

A few weeks later I got a letter inviting me for a place on the waitlist.

 

[Hednej]

Tell me about it. At one medical school, one of the two interviewers ended our conversation with "see you at second look." The other said that he had a pleasant conversation and gave me his business card in case I had any questions...

A few weeks later I got a letter inviting me for a place on the waitlist.

same here, I just don't want to get the same high hopes for residency interviews.

 

[naegleria brain]

A few things:
1. No one has proclaimed that they are a program director on this thread. Some of us have gone through this process and have some general ideas of what programs covet based on our experiences. None of us has said "This is exactly what programs are looking for." So I find your comment about us being posers both obnoxious and self serving.
2. Whether or not a PD will be honest with a medical student about what is important for residency applications is debatable and idealistic at best. Also, what one program covets in an applicant may not be what every program wants. Don't think that just because you contact a PD that he will be forthcoming about what goes on at meetings to discuss the programs ROL.

ALL things posted on these forums should be taken with a grain of salt, so I find your comments unnecessary.

and i find you completely inscrutable. if everyone went to their PD and compared results here, then we wouldnt have to guess, no?

i've yet to hear a PD say other than boards, clinical evals, and LORs as top 3. and i've talked to about 4 or 5 from nsg, ortho, ENT, and ophtho.

i didnt say you are a poser. but everyone knows premeds and high schoolers and dental kids infiltrate this forum with their nonsense time and again, and with this shroud of anonymity, one can never tell. so, i reiterate, i'd STRONGLY suggest FIRST investigating with PD's at your school, and bringing your findings here.

obnoxious? hardly. pardon me if i dont take time to explain the motive behind my every word, perhaps it was asking too much for you all to figure it out. its not a leap of logic.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

and i find you completely inscrutable. if everyone went to their PD and compared results here, then we wouldnt have to guess, no?

i've yet to hear a PD say other than boards, clinical evals, and LORs as top 3. and i've talked to about 4 or 5 from nsg, ortho, ENT, and ophtho.

i didnt say you are a poser. but everyone knows premeds and high schoolers and dental kids infiltrate this forum with their nonsense time and again, and with this shroud of anonymity, one can never tell. so, i reiterate, i'd STRONGLY suggest FIRST investigating with PD's at your school, and bringing your findings here.

obnoxious? hardly. pardon me if i dont take time to explain the motive behind my every word, perhaps it was asking too much for you all to figure it out. its not a leap of logic.

You had to talk to that many people to come to the same conclusions that we are throwing around on this thread? You will never get a hard and fast answer to your question no matter how many people you talk to "in the know", so everyone will continue to speculate, and to think otherwise is naive. And how do we know that the info that you get from each PD and post here is valid at all? Its only valid and relevant if you take it as being true, which, if you have some common sense you'll read and interpret it with skeptiscism anyway, seeing as though these are anonymous boards with plenty of posers trying to disrupt the future career plans of every great physician-to-be.

I still stand by my original post and if anyone disagrees--oh well, its all speculation anyway.