What's the best first gun to own?

[pgg]

The stamps have finally come. Now I just have to get the other two hosts ready to accept their cans. Can't wait to shoot on friday.

We need more NFA pics from members. I can't believe Blade doesn't have a stack of stamped goods.

When'd you send in the forms? We're waiting on two submitted back in ... December, I think. It's been so long I don't exactly remember.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[BADMD]

When'd you send in the forms? We're waiting on two submitted back in ... December, I think. It's been so long I don't exactly remember.

Mailed Nov 14
Check cashed on Nov 18
Got the Forms back for correction on Apr 27
Forms approved May 2
Forms received May 9

nfatracker.com might give you an idea for how fast your examiner works.

 

[MTGas2B]

Figured I'd bring this thread back to life...

Going shooting tomorrow, 9 mm (M9) and 5.57 (some AR-15 derivative, M16 or M4) for work

I'm heading back to WA (for a visit) this summer, and I'm looking into getting my resident concealed carry permit.

Its got me thinking about getting a pistol. I may wait until I leave CA (not excited about registering my purchase here), but may get something here, not sure. I think I'd go with a glock. 4g may be out in the republic of CA, not "certified" yet. Primary reason for a glock is durability. My first thought was an M9 (before I decided glock) like I had last summer, but reading about them, they kind of suck and they are heavy as $h!t. The glock looks pretty freaking durable. Figure if I get bored with shooting and leave it sit it will do well year later.

My biggest debate now is 0.40 cal vs 9mm. For now (subject to change), I have no intention of carrying, even if I move somewhere I could. 9 mm ammo is pretty cheap. Is there a big advantage of 0.40 cal for someone like me? The only thing I could think of is, that I would probably carry for fishing or hiking. Is a 0.40 cal that much more than a 9 mm when it comes to bears? Or, at that point have I entered a different league, 0.50, 0.45, etc., and just need a second pistol.

If I got a non-glock, then I'm thinking Sig, but from what I've read the glock wins on price and durability.

Thoughts?

 

[pgg]

If you have a parent living in a free state, you can get around the California safe handgun roster via an intrafamilial gift transfer. It's how I acquired my LCP while living in CA. There's another loophole involving a temporary single shot conversion but it's more of a hassle.

I don't know anything about bears but I don't think .40 is enough gun for big ones.

I'm partial to Sigs myself. The M9 is a nice gun, someday I'll get one.

 

[pgg]

Mailed Nov 14
Check cashed on Nov 18
Got the Forms back for correction on Apr 27
Forms approved May 2
Forms received May 9

nfatracker.com might give you an idea for how fast your examiner works.

Stamps came in last week. I think a 338 LM suppressor will be next.

 

[loveoforganic]

Figured I'd bring this thread back to life...

Going shooting tomorrow, 9 mm (M9) and 5.57 (some AR-15 derivative, M16 or M4) for work

I'm heading back to WA (for a visit) this summer, and I'm looking into getting my resident concealed carry permit.

Its got me thinking about getting a pistol. I may wait until I leave CA (not excited about registering my purchase here), but may get something here, not sure. I think I'd go with a glock. 4g may be out in the republic of CA, not "certified" yet. Primary reason for a glock is durability. My first thought was an M9 (before I decided glock) like I had last summer, but reading about them, they kind of suck and they are heavy as $h!t. The glock looks pretty freaking durable. Figure if I get bored with shooting and leave it sit it will do well year later.

My biggest debate now is 0.40 cal vs 9mm. For now (subject to change), I have no intention of carrying, even if I move somewhere I could. 9 mm ammo is pretty cheap. Is there a big advantage of 0.40 cal for someone like me? The only thing I could think of is, that I would probably carry for fishing or hiking. Is a 0.40 cal that much more than a 9 mm when it comes to bears? Or, at that point have I entered a different league, 0.50, 0.45, etc., and just need a second pistol.

If I got a non-glock, then I'm thinking Sig, but from what I've read the glock wins on price and durability.

Thoughts?

Based purely on what I've read (no personal experience), you can treat up through medium-sized black bears (<300 lbs) pretty much like people (9 and 40 would both be alright), but beyond that, you should start looking at more serious calibers (and if you're talking about grizzlies, you need to look into the big calibers, shotgun slugs, etc.). I'd seek advice from those more in the know though

 

[MTGas2B]

My primary purpose isn't a bear swatter. Really looking for good target practice and potential carry. If in the 0.40 vs 9 debate one could also fill the role of back country carry that would be a nice bonus. If I start spending more time outdoors in the mountains then it may be time for my second handgun.

As far as purchase in CA, I was wondering about other options. Could I purchase in the state where I'm a resident then bring it in without registering? Family option would be good too, folks in are in a non-sales tax state.

 

[pgg]

As far as purchase in CA, I was wondering about other options. Could I purchase in the state where I'm a resident then bring it in without registering?

No - at least, not legally. Some people do that and get away with it. There doesn't seem to be much interest in prosecuting AD military who typically are making an honest mistake when they do this.

But for AD military the ATF very specfically considers your "residence" to be the state where you have PCS orders. There's an exception for the rare case where you live in one state and commute daily to another.

You can't buy a handgun in a state if you're not a resident there. You can buy long guns in any state, it's OK with the ATF, provided the laws of both the state of purchase and the state of residence allow it. California is a state that requires all gun purchases to go through their DROS process, so no luck there.

Family option would be good too, folks in are in a non-sales tax state.

If you go that route, there are some specific rules to evade the CA roster. It has to be an actual gift from a parent, grandparent, or child - siblings, cousins, etc don't count. It needs to go to an FFL in CA with a letter declaring it to be a gift. And be careful about providing the money for the parent to buy it for you; to do so is the definition of a straw purchase even if no one involved is a prohibited party.

 

[periopdoc]

RE: 9mm vs 40

I will appeal to authority on this one. Rob Pincus of Combat Focus Shooting fame recently came out strongly in favor of the 9mm over the larger calibers.

Being Wrong is Important... and, Admitting It is too!
Or: Why Rob Pincus now prefers the 9mm over .40 S&W for Personal Defense.

-pod

 

[periopdoc]

Neither should be considered reasonable bear calibers. One need only see a black bear who's head has been turned to mush by three shots from a 375 H&H who still kept charging to understand that there is no substitute for large caliber rounds when dealing with an angry bear. The bigger the hole the better. Preferably something in a .44 or .45 range with a wide meplat.

-pod

 

[FiremedicMike]

Neither should be considered reasonable bear calibers. One need only see a black bear who's head has been turned to mush by three shots from a 375 H&H who still kept charging to understand that there is no substitute for large caliber rounds when dealing with an angry bear. The bigger the hole the better. Preferably something in a .44 or .45 range with a wide meplat.

-pod

I agree with this, it should also be noted that a .44 magnum has significantly more power than a .45acp. Honestly though, a pistol vs a bear is just a bad idea.

On the subject of 9 vs .40, I've weighed in on that several times (probably in this thread). I'm no Rob Pincus, but I also chose 9mm over .40 as a duty weapon during my cop days. There is virtually no difference from a ballistic standpoint between 9mm and .40, so really you're giving up a few rounds of capacity and gaining a significant amount of recoil (important for followup shots, because you shouldn't ever really plan on a "one shot stop") all so you can say "hey, I carry a .40".

Lest we forget, the .40S&W is a bastard round, created because FBI agents either had hands that were too small for the 10mm frame or couldn't handle the recoil of the 10mm. Someone got the bright idea of chopping down the cartridge and reducing the powder charge, and thus the .40 was born. Same diameter as the 10mm, slightly less recoil, but packs the same punch as the 9mm.

 

[periopdoc]

I agree with this, it should also be noted that a .44 magnum has significantly more power than a .45acp. Honestly though, a pistol vs a bear is just a bad idea..

To clarify, I was not referring to .45 acp as a defensive bear round when I mentioned 45 cal. Think 460 Rowland, 45 colt or 454 cassul loaded with a dense, hard bullet with a wide meplat for deep penetration and damage. This pretty much requires a revolver format although the 460 Rowland is a reasonable thought. I know a lot of guys use the 10mm as well. I think it is suboptimal, but if I could only own one sidearm, I might think differently.

A smaller diameter round is reasonable for shooting from the safety of a stand (357 mag is reasonable for black bear hunting), but if you are looking for a defensive pistol round for bear, you need the larger diameter.

Agreed sidearm vs bear from a defensive standpoint is very sub-optimal. 12 g slug is my preferred method of protection although I am looking closely at the ballistics of the 458 socom in an AR package and they look pretty damn good.

- pod

 

[MTGas2B]

Neither should be considered reasonable bear calibers. One need only see a black bear who's head has been turned to mush by three shots from a 375 H&H who still kept charging to understand that there is no substitute for large caliber rounds when dealing with an angry bear. The bigger the hole the better. Preferably something in a .44 or .45 range with a wide meplat.

-pod

That's what I suspected. Can't pick one over the other based on wilderness carry.

Good article too. I've kind of leaning towards the 9 mm. Looking more that way.

 

[loveoforganic]

Any of y'all have experience with the sig sp2022? I've had my eye on a ruger mk ii/iii, and am probably still heading in that direction (it compliments what I have access to much, much better), but this is tempting me as well

Edit: oh hey, sp2022 info at the top of this page!

 

[MTGas2B]

Iron sights on the AR-15 are a pain. I want my ACOG back.


On the iPhone

 

[FiremedicMike]

Any of y'all have experience with the sig sp2022? I've had my eye on a ruger mk ii/iii, and am probably still heading in that direction (it compliments what I have access to much, much better), but this is tempting me as well

Edit: oh hey, sp2022 info at the top of this page!

I had the 2340 (.40 cal version of that, before I switched to 9mm) and it was OK. A bit top heavy and I don't care for DA/SA, but many folks love that gun.

 

[FiremedicMike]

To clarify, I was not referring to .45 acp as a defensive bear round when I mentioned 45 cal. Think 460 Rowland, 45 colt or 454 cassul loaded with a dense, hard bullet with a wide meplat for deep penetration and damage. This pretty much requires a revolver format although the 460 Rowland is a reasonable thought. I know a lot of guys use the 10mm as well. I think it is suboptimal, but if I could only own one sidearm, I might think differently.

A smaller diameter round is reasonable for shooting from the safety of a stand (357 mag is reasonable for black bear hunting), but if you are looking for a defensive pistol round for bear, you need the larger diameter.

Agreed sidearm vs bear from a defensive standpoint is very sub-optimal. 12 g slug is my preferred method of protection although I am looking closely at the ballistics of the 458 socom in an AR package and they look pretty damn good.

- pod

Gotcha!

 

[BADMD]

Stamps came in last week. I think a 338 LM suppressor will be next.

I wish I could shoot well enough to take advantage of the LM.

The NFA thing is kind of addictive. I'm thinking .458 SOCOM or .338 Spectre next, with the appropriate can. I did find a company about 2 hours from me that will suppress a 12 gauge

 

[pgg]

I wish I could shoot well enough to take advantage of the LM.

Most of my guns can shoot better than I'm capable of making them, but that doesn't stop me.

A local club has 200-600 and 1000 yard steel silhouette ranges ... and there's always the open desert a few hours away. I'm having to unlearn some bad habits to hit stuff that far out with .308.

I don't have a 338LM gun yet. I figure if I order the 338 can now, by the time I get back from Afghanistan next summer it'll be in hand. And that'll be an excuse to buy the gun. So far I just have a $4 plastic reloading tray for .338 - as far as I'm concerned that commits me to the whole shebang.

The NFA thing is kind of addictive. I'm thinking .458 SOCOM or .338 Spectre next, with the appropriate can. I did find a company about 2 hours from me that will suppress a 12 gauge

The .458 interests me. 600 grain subsonic rounds ... fits on a regular AR lower, uses existing magazines. Like a grown-up 300 BLK. Not sure who makes cans for that though.

Slugs only on the 12 gauge, I assume?

 

[K31]

Edit: oh hey, sp2022 info at the top of this page!

Don't pay what he did though. You should be able to get it for ~$100 less (eg here).

 

[BADMD]

Most of my guns can shoot better than I'm capable of making them, but that doesn't stop me.

A local club has 200-600 and 1000 yard steel silhouette ranges ... and there's always the open desert a few hours away. I'm having to unlearn some bad habits to hit stuff that far out with .308.

I'd love to have a club near me like that. That is awesome. Once I get my Savage 93 back from the threader, I plan to spend some quality time shooting for score at 100.

I don't have a 338LM gun yet. I figure if I order the 338 can now, by the time I get back from Afghanistan next summer it'll be in hand. And that'll be an excuse to buy the gun. So far I just have a $4 plastic reloading tray for .338 - as far as I'm concerned that commits me to the whole shebang.

And if you run out of ammo, you can always chamber $5 bills.

The .458 interests me. 600 grain subsonic rounds ... fits on a regular AR lower, uses existing magazines. Like a grown-up 300 BLK. Not sure who makes cans for that though.

Slugs only on the 12 gauge, I assume?

The .458 is supposed to be quite a thumper. Most of the cans are semi custom jobs and I don't think any of the big manufacturers have a production can (although there is a Gemtech that supposedly can be used for subsonic). Including transfer, the lead-time is around a year.

The 12 gauge should good for shot and slugs. The cans are usually integral and the porting doesn't allow shot to pass. Some designs I've seen add a fine screen to do the same. The local place uses a pump gun as an example. I'm hoping that could do my gas gun. Theoretically, a can should actually enhance the function. I'd be more confident if I had a recoil operated gun.

I'd love to have a totally suppressed 3 Gun set up. As long as the ranges are 100 yards or less (and my closest one is), it should be doable. The RO for my group at the last one thought my suppressed rifle was great, although there were issues with the shot timer. I'll hopefully have the .45 set up by the end of the month, however getting the new barrel fit is going to take a heck of a lot longer than I was expecting.

 

[pgg]

And if you run out of ammo, you can always chamber $5 bills.

Yeah, that's the #1 criticism of 338LM and 50BMG, especially the semi-auto ones.

$5, $5, $5, $5, $5, reload, $5, $5, $5, $5, $5, reload, rub sore shoulder ... $5, $5, $5, $5, $5 ...


Although it helps to load your own ammo. Even going top of the line and not buying bulk ...

Lapua .338 brass - $2.80 each
250 - 300 gr Lapua scenar bullets - $.85 each
Primers - $.04 each
Vihtavuori N170 powder - $30/pound = roughly $.42/round

So $4 for the first round ...

With some annealing and only neck sizing, maybe 10 loads out of each case, so now you're averaging a more reasonable $1.60/round on average.

Plus a set of match dies ... maybe $300. And of course I'll need a Giraud annealer, so there's about $450.

Plus time. But rolling your own is part of the fun.

The .458 is supposed to be quite a thumper. Most of the cans are semi custom jobs and I don't think any of the big manufacturers have a production can (although there is a Gemtech that supposedly can be used for subsonic). Including transfer, the lead-time is around a year.

Might be worth considering a 50BMG can, if the bulk/length isn't too bad. Then you have an excuse to get a .458 SOCOM and a 50BMG.

 

[loveoforganic]

You're not really shooting if you're not shooting 20mm

Don't pay what he did though. You should be able to get it for ~$100 less (eg here).

Thanks, I actually came across a site for 350 a little ago, but I can't seem to find it. Won't be in the market for a while anyway

 

[BADMD]

Plus time. But rolling your own is part of the fun.

No doubt, but I'm getting a little sick of only loading at 80ish cartridges an hour. I think it will soon be time for a 650.

It is nice that I never seem to run out of ammo and I'm not searching for sales.

 

[pgg]

No doubt, but I'm getting a little sick of only loading at 80ish cartridges an hour. I think it will soon be time for a 650.

It is nice that I never seem to run out of ammo and I'm not searching for sales.

I'm still always looking for sales, except now it's primers & bullets, or no-hazmat-free-shipping deals ...

Coincidence, a 650 is on my list. I'll probably put it off for a bit though.

I'm loading on a Lyman turret now. Which is fine for my .308 loads where I'm weighing each charge individually ... but I loaded about 500 9mm 147gr rounds last week in celebration of getting the Tirant 9 stamp back. I need a progressive press. This is silly way to load 9mm.

I got into reloading because ObamaScare meant I didn't shoot .380 for a long time. It also taught me that even though Walmart was conveniently located between my house and the range, I still needed to stock more than a couple boxes of .223 ...

 

[BADMD]

My biggest debate now is 0.40 cal vs 9mm. For now (subject to change), I have no intention of carrying, even if I move somewhere I could. 9 mm ammo is pretty cheap. Is there a big advantage of 0.40 cal for someone like me? The only thing I could think of is, that I would probably carry for fishing or hiking. Is a 0.40 cal that much more than a 9 mm when it comes to bears? Or, at that point have I entered a different league, 0.50, 0.45, etc., and just need a second pistol.

If I got a non-glock, then I'm thinking Sig, but from what I've read the glock wins on price and durability.

Thoughts?

Do you tinker? The Gen 3 Glock is a prime tinkerer's gun. It easy to disassemble and reassemble, the parts need little fitting and there are lots of aftermarket parts. The Gen 4 is not there yet. Although many of the Gen 3 parts will work on a Gen 4, the fit is not ideal. The prime advantage of the Gen 4 is the modular back strap. The Glock grip is big, especially 20/21.

As for the 40 cal vs 9mm, shoot what you like. Shoot them both and pick our favorite. There are some theoretical advantages to the 40 cal, but good shooting is ultimately the most important.

For trail purposes in an autoloader, I like the 10mm (must be full house loads). For the Glock 20, you can get conversion barrels for 40 cal, 357 Sig and 9x25 Dillon. With a new slide, you can convert to 45 ACP and 400 Corbon. You must hold out for the SF version of the 20, however. It also helps to hand load as you can take advantage of all these different cartridges.

There are lots of others that are great guns. Sig is good, but don't forget the S&W M&P and the Springfield XD/XDm. CZ also makes a great steel frame gun in 9mm or 40 cal in the CZ-75 and they also have compact versions. Many of these will give Glock a run for their money on price.

All I can say is try a few and buy what you like.

 

[BADMD]

Coincidence...I'm loading on a Lyman turret now.

Really? I'm using a T-Mag II. Did you buy the Deluxe Expert Kit at Cabela's as well?

Have you ever gotten the automatic primer feeder to work reliably? I've basically given up. I only use it when loading 45 ACP.

I loaded about 500 9mm 147gr rounds last week in celebration of getting the Tirant 9 stamp back. I need a progressive press. This is silly way to load 9mm.

Indeed. I've got to load about 300 cartridges for the weekend and I'm really not looking forward to it.

Reasonably priced 45 ACP was tough to find after the election. People were stalking the Walmarts near my house. I also hated the idea of leaving all that good brass at the range. Plus, I love to screw with stuff. Hence I bought the reloader.

 

[pgg]

Really? I'm using a T-Mag II. Did you buy the Deluxe Expert Kit at Cabela's as well?

Have you ever gotten the automatic primer feeder to work reliably? I've basically given up. I only use it when loading 45 ACP.

Ha, that's exactly what I have. Got it from Midway though.

I gave up on the primer feeder. It sucks. I use a Lee hand primer now. Only thing I don't like about it is that the plastic tray cover 'ears' are fragile (I've broken two so far), and the standard Lee shell holders don't fit; there's a different set that it needs.

Didn't like their case lube & pad much, then used the Dillon spray lube for a while (much better), and now I use Imperial sizing wax for rifles. Have carbide pistol dies so those don't get lube.

Still use the Lyman powder measure (for pistol rounds) and the case trimmer, though I bought a power adapter for the trimmer. The powder measure was awful for stick powder like Varget but it does fine for the pistol powders I have. I bought a couple of electronic scales for measuring Varget for rifle loads now - a Hornady Autocharge that's good and a Gempro 250 scale for the loads I'm really picky about.

I'm addicted to the bling of wet tumbling with stainless media too. That plus dies, kinetic and collet pullers, makes up most of my reloading equipment ...

The glaring deficiency is a progressive press.

Reasonably priced 45 ACP was tough to find after the election. People were stalking the Walmarts near my house. I also hated the idea of leaving all that good brass at the range. Plus, I love to screw with stuff. Hence I bought the reloader.

Worse, were the gun shop employees stalking the Walmarts to buy up the stock as soon as it hit the shelves, then take it across the street to mark up 100% in their stores. And even they couldn't keep it in stock.

ObamaScare round 2 is already beginning. Some components are getting hard to find ... it's starting to piss me off. But, I'm stocked a little better this time around.

 

[periopdoc]

Pretty happy with the Lee Classic Turret Press with auto index. I just need to figure out how to adjust the indexing as it is slightly off meaning about once in every 8 pulls or so it doesn't line up quite right.

Primer feeder and powder measurer work well.

I have several disks that I leave the dies loaded into and just switch out the whole disk when changing calibers. Takes less than 5 min to switch if I am using previously verified load data etc.



Love the Hornady Lock-N-Load Scale.

I have about 10,000 primers in stock and enough powder to outlast those. The only thing I don't have enough of is bullets, but those aren't as scarce.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Love the Hornady Lock-N-Load Scale.

I have the autocharge version of that, consistently gets within .1 grain. I initially had a lot of problems with drift, but I put a pair of ferrite clamps on the power cord and that seemed to fix it.

I have about 10,000 primers in stock and enough powder to outlast those. The only thing I don't have enough of is bullets, but those aren't as scarce.

My primer:bullet ratio is similarly dysfunctional.

I can find all the primers I want; it's bullets that are a problem. Wideners has lots of primers in stock at good prices. Ammunitiontogo.com had Fiocchi primers for $20/1000 recently; couldn't turn down that deal even though usually I use CCI or Remington primers.

On the bullet side ... I can find all the premium bullets I want, it's cheap bulk ones in cases of 2000+ that are a problem. I've been using Zero 230gr and 147gr bullets for the last year or so and they've been out of stock everywhere for a few months.

I think my mailman was starting to hate me a few months ago, when all the flat-rate boxes full of lead were coming in.

I only have about 500 of the Zero 147s left, so I'm thinking I'll give Montana Gold a try. They're in Kalispell - ever use them? Rumor has it locals can drop in and buy cases of their cosmetic blemishes ...

I'm up against the 50-pound residential limit for smokeless powder. This is presenting a problem of a different sort for me since I want to try out some CFE223 and a couple of new pistol powders, but buying more than a few pounds would take me over the limit.

 

[periopdoc]

I'm up against the 50-pound residential limit for smokeless powder. This is presenting a problem of a different sort for me since I want to try out some CFE223 and a couple of new pistol powders, but buying more than a few pounds would take me over the limit.

Umm. A California thing I hope.

...Montana Gold a try. They're in Kalispell - ever use them? Rumor has it locals can drop in and buy cases of their cosmetic blemishes

Great quality and inexpensive... listed prices include shipping. I have thought about picking them up in person to see if they would sell them even cheaper without shipping, but I haven't tried it out. Hadn't heard about cosmetic blems. Will look into it.

-pod

 

[yappy]

Is loading a hobby for you guys or do you envision holding off an oppressive government in the future? Just looking at the volumes you're talking about...

 

[loveoforganic]

It's a way to save (a lot of) money and increase performance. Not sure what kind of volume you're talking. I average a few hundred rounds per trip to the range (and I'm sure I'm on the low end relative to some of the other posters here, as I don't shoot enough to justify reloading what I tend to shoot)

 

[FiremedicMike]

Pretty happy with the Lee Classic Turret Press with auto index. I just need to figure out how to adjust the indexing as it is slightly off meaning about once in every 8 pulls or so it doesn't line up quite right.
.

- pod

Adjust that nut at the end of the center rod (the one that locks into the the die plate) slightly until you find the sweet spot.

I love my LCT.

 

[periopdoc]

Good article too. I've kind of leaning towards the 9 mm. Looking more that way.

Forgot to link up the Gabe Suarez article. Another well respected trainer who relatively recently switched from the 40 to the 9mm.

Why 9mm-Gabe Suarez- Part 1 from Warriortalk

I understand Mas Ayoob changes calibers based on the environment going up to .45 for cold environments where hollow-point expansion is problematic or in areas where magazine capacity is limited. Maybe a good idea for someone who shoots more than I do, but lately I have been realizing the difficulty of maintaining good performance with frequent changes in platform and caliber even though I shoot two to three hundred rounds per week. If I was going to go multiple calibers, I would stick with Glock. That gives you the most uniform multi-caliber experience of all platforms IMHO.

In fact, all this 9mm talk got my butt itching again so I went out and bought a Glock 19 this afternoon. Hell of an ugly gun, but damn fine shooter. I still prefer to carry a revolver, but this may quickly jump up to my first backup once it is worn in.

Adjust that nut at the end of the center rod (the one that locks into the the die plate) slightly until you find the sweet spot.

Thanks I owe you a beer.

Is loading a hobby for you guys or do you envision holding off an oppressive government in the future? Just looking at the volumes you're talking about...

Well, it is a hobby that I really enjoy that saves me a lot of money and provides me with ammunition during times when supply chains are strained. I prefer to hold off an oppressive government with my vote, but if necessary...

It has been a good way to introduce my 6-year-old to some basic safety concepts about guns and ammo, and a way that we can have a common hobby (not easy with a 6-year-old). Now that he is seven, I bought him a bow, and next year will probably introduce a BB gun. The older he gets, the more fun he is. Pretty soon we will be going to Gunsite together!

The biggest cost savings for me is appreciated in the 45 and 10mm loads. The cheapest loads I can find are about 30 cents a piece (dirty and inaccurate). For 10-11 cents a piece and a little time, I can load ammo equivalent to 35-40 cents per round quality. For 15 cents I can get equivalent quality to 50+ cents per round.

From a rifle perspective, right now I just don't shoot enough volume to appreciate the same amount of savings (more saving per round, but significantly fewer rounds). It doesn't help that my selection of rifles all started from the premise of buying the most common calibers where I can buy ammo in any little mom and pop store across the country. Lately I have started expanding my collection with some significantly more expensive calibers. Ultimately I believe the 300 Blackout will be the caliber that I end up saving the most on because I expect to shoot it a lot, if it ever gets here. Hello ATF, hope you guys love me!

- pod

 

[pgg]

Is loading a hobby for you guys or do you envision holding off an oppressive government in the future? Just looking at the volumes you're talking about...

I'm in the military, so maybe I plan on being part of that oppressive government, you just watch yerself.


Just kidding of course. Although I'm very pro-2A, armed citizen, etc as is surely apparent from my previous posts, most of my guns I own because they're fun. No other reason.

A few were bought with self-defense in mind. I carry a relatively cheap pre-owned Sig P220 Carry because on some horrible day I might need to shoot somebody. But the 16-pounds-unloaded semi-auto sniper rifle (with nice optics and a suppressor) is just a toy.


For me, the motivation for reloading is equal parts (1) assured availability, (2) cost, and (3) quality, (4) hobby.

1) For much of 2008 and 2009 the Great ObamaScare made commercial ammunition ridiculously scarce and too expensive for me to afford on resident pay. Many recreational shooters simply couldn't shoot AT ALL because there was no ammo to be bought. Even today, if I want subsonic 9mm ammo to shoot through a suppressor (a quiet and pleasant way to shoot), I can search and search and search for some Fiocchi 147gr stuff to get mail order @ $.50/round, roughly 2x what regular ammo costs at Wal-Mart ... or I can load my own.

2) To give one example, match quality .308 rifle ammunition will cost upwards of $1 per round. I can load my own for maybe $.40/round. If you shoot a hundred rounds a few times per month, that can add up. There is (was) some cheap imported military surplus .308 out there you can buy for $.50/round or so, but it's no good if you want to actually hit something with it past a couple hundred yards. It's also dirty ammo and smells like burning cats.

3) Quality. $1+/round commercial 168 gr Federal Gold Medal Match .308 will produce ~1" groups out of my favorite AR10 at 100 yards; $1.40/round premium Black Hills ammo will maybe do a little better, sometimes. The ones I load myself consistently get .5-.75" if I do my part. Reloading allows you to tune the ammunition to a specific gun. It is impossible to take full advantage of a high quality rifle if you don't reload.

4) I enjoy making ammo and shooting it. Not so much cranking out 100s of pistol rounds, that's actually kind of tedious ... but the whole process of starting with nothing and over time tuning an accurate load for a rifle. That it's cost effective for rifle and specialty pistol ammo is just a bonus.

 

[periopdoc]

Saw this guy while out hiking today. Big bear who was really skinny after a long winter. I hadn't been planning on hiking today, and only had my 9mm XdM and 22 Buckmark with me. I was getting a little nervous and thinking of turning around because of all the bear scat on the ground when this guy pops up. Thankfully, he was more scared of me than I was of him and I only had time to quickly snap this shot with my phone before he disappeared.

Funny thing was I looked at my 44 mag this morning and thought about carrying it today, but thought, "nah, why would I ever need that much firepower today?" Then on the way to the truck I looked at my rifle and thought I should toss it in the truck, of course I didn't.

- pod

 

[pgg]

I understand Mas Ayoob changes calibers based on the environment going up to .45 for cold environments where hollow-point expansion is problematic or in areas where magazine capacity is limited.

This is why I carry a .45; since I'm limited to 10 rounds or less, I figure they might as well be big ones. It is harder to stay proficient with .45 compared to 9mm though. I'm not sure what I'll carry when I leave CA.

In fact, all this 9mm talk got my butt itching again so I went out and bought a Glock 19 this afternoon.

It's a beautiful thing when a gun thread inspires a purchase. Even if it's a Glock.

Ultimately I believe the 300 Blackout will be the caliber that I end up saving the most on because I expect to shoot it a lot, if it ever gets here. Hello ATF, hope you guys love me!

Supposedly their newly hired group of assistant examiners is starting to make an impact.

I really like my 300 BLK, though I haven't shot it once since my last trip to Arizona. On an AR pistol lower it's just not the same. Being in a free state, you won't have that problem.

 

[pgg]

Umm. A California thing I hope.

I'm pretty sure it's Federal ...

Page 15 of Hodgdon's manual (pdf) states


14.3.7 Quantities

14.3.7.1 Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not exceeding 9.1
kg (20 lb) shall be permitted to be stored in original containers in residences.

14.3.7.2 Quantites exceeding 9.1 kg (20 lb), but not exceeding 22.7 kg (50 lb), shall be
permitted to be stored in residences where kept in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 25.4 mm (1 in.) nominal thickness.


It's not 100% clear to me where this comes from though. Kind of looks like Dept of Transportation code?

 

[yappy]

Whoa! Wish I was riding shotgun with my 45/70 guide gun!

Saw this guy while out hiking today. Big bear who was really skinny after a long winter. I hadn't been planning on hiking today, and only had my 9mm XdM and 22 Buckmark with me. I was getting a little nervous and thinking of turning around because of all the bear scat on the ground when this guy pops up. Thankfully, he was more scared of me than I was of him and I only had time to quickly snap this shot with my phone before he disappeared.

Funny thing was I looked at my 44 mag this morning and thought about carrying it today, but thought, "nah, why would I ever need that much firepower today?" Then on the way to the truck I looked at my rifle and thought I should toss it in the truck, of course I didn't.

- pod

 

[periopdoc]

I'm pretty sure it's Federal ... ...
It's not 100% clear to me where this comes from though. Kind of looks like Dept of Transportation code?

Okay, that kind of set off my detector.

That is not DOT code. Their hazmat regs fall under Title 49 CFR Parts 100-185 and don't have a numbering scheme that would be consistent with what you listed. Also, they regulate transportation, not personal use/ storage.

I'm going to wager a guess that those are NFPA 495 codes. Of course you can't just go online and look at the current NFPA codes without paying for them (bastards) and so I would have to drop by the local FD or library to be certain.

Many parts of NFPA are not adopted by local municipalities or state governments, and as best I can tell this part has not been adopted in Montana. I would be willing to bet money that most if not all places in California have adopted NFPA 495 cause "extra regulations that we don't even have to spend money to author? Where do we sign up?"

Of course the other question is what your homeowners insurance policy states. They may require one to abide by NFPA 495 to maintain coverage. All of my powder is stored in my shop so my homeowners policy may deny coverage if that burns I forgot to check on any NFPA stipulations in the policy when we bought the house.

- pod

 

[pgg]

Okay, that kind of set off my detector.

That is not DOT code. Their hazmat regs fall under Title 49 CFR Parts 100-185 and don't have a numbering scheme that would be consistent with what you listed. Also, they regulate transportation, not personal use/ storage.

I'm going to wager a guess that those are NFPA 495 codes. Of course you can't just go online and look at the current NFPA codes without paying for them (bastards) and so I would have to drop by the local FD or library to be certain.

Many parts of NFPA are not adopted by local municipalities or state governments, and as best I can tell this part has not been adopted in Montana. I would be willing to bet money that most if not all places in California have adopted NFPA 495 cause "extra regulations that we don't even have to spend money to author? Where do we sign up?"

Of course the other question is what your homeowners insurance policy states. They may require one to abide by NFPA 495 to maintain coverage. All of my powder is stored in my shop so my homeowners policy may deny coverage if that burns I forgot to check on any NFPA stipulations in the policy when we bought the house.

- pod

Maybe so. It's irritating that this information is so difficult to find out.

I just called the the fire department and after getting transferred through a few people, they said they'd have to look it up and get back to me. (Next week, because they're busy today.)

I got the impression that no one has ever asked them this before. Maybe I should hide my dog.


Storage outside my house is a bad option because it gets so absurdly hot here during the summer and I have no climate-controlled outbuilding. In the meantime I'll just work on storing it in ~ 3 - 45 grain aliquots in individual sealed brass containers.

 

[sevoflurane]

Saw this guy while out hiking today. Big bear who was really skinny after a long winter. I hadn't been planning on hiking today, and only had my 9mm XdM and 22 Buckmark with me. I was getting a little nervous and thinking of turning around because of all the bear scat on the ground when this guy pops up. Thankfully, he was more scared of me than I was of him and I only had time to quickly snap this shot with my phone before he disappeared.

Funny thing was I looked at my 44 mag this morning and thought about carrying it today, but thought, "nah, why would I ever need that much firepower today?" Then on the way to the truck I looked at my rifle and thought I should toss it in the truck, of course I didn't.

- pod

Saaaweeet!

Back when I lived in Summit Co... we had bear rolling down main street in Frisco from time to time. What REALLY scared me (not that a bear popping out of the woods insn't scary) was Moose. Those things are super big and super scary close up.

 

[sevoflurane]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODgwgaLTnh8

 

[BADMD]

Is loading a hobby for you guys or do you envision holding off an oppressive government in the future? Just looking at the volumes you're talking about...

Just to add, the volume we are talking about actually isn't that much. During the summer, I typically shoot about 4-500 rounds a month in mixed ammo,by myself. With a buddy, I can go through that much in a day.

I save a substantial amount reloading my 300 Blackout. Commercial subsonic ammo is about $22/20 cartridges (not including shipping). I do it for 46 cents each ($9.20/20). In the last 2 months, I've easily blown through 400 of those. 45 ACP is $23 for 50 and I load at $13 for 50. I also load 10 mm and 9x25 Dillon. While I don't shoot those in volume, commercial 9x25 is priced so that even with using new brass for each one, I still shoot it for less than half the price of loaded ammo. The headspacing on 9x25 is critical and mine are perfectly headspaced for my pistol, something that can only be with hand loading. I see similar savings with 10 mm and I can load full power or I can download to 40S&W velocities. Ditto on the .308 stuff. My groups shrunk in half just by moving to a mid velocity hand load. I didn't do all that much to optimize the load, either.

Handloading is fun and a nice diversion. Frankly, there is enough surplus ammo out there that if you are planning for some mythical resistance to oppression, it would be easier to just lay in a stock of that.

 

[pgg]

Just looking at the volumes you're talking about...

Just to add, the volume we are talking about actually isn't that much.

To expand on this a bit ...

I find most people who don't shoot recreationally have a distorted view of what 'a lot' of ammunition is.

The majority of gun owners have a couple boxes of ammunition at home. They shoot a couple times a year, if even that much. If they have enough rounds on hand to load the gun, that's plenty. Hunters might shoot a couple rounds to confirm the zero on their deer rifle before hitting the woods. They might go through a box of 20 rounds every couple years.

Most non-gun-owners know a couple people like that, and get the idea that nobody really needs more than a couple boxes of ammo, and that only crazy people would need or want 100s of rounds on hand - much less 1000s, or 10s of thousands.


But people who actually shoot as a hobby or to remain proficient go to the range several times per month. Each time, they shoot 100s of pistol rounds. Depending on the rifle, they might shoot as much there too. If there's a 22 involved, it's not unreasonable to go through an entire $15-20 Wal-Mart bulk pack (333 - 550 rounds). For people who compete, going through 10s of thousands of rounds per year is common. When you're routinely shooting that much, the sensible thing to do is reload or buy cases, usually by mail order.


So next time you see some local news anchor get all wide-eyed (if the botox permits) and breathlessly report on an 'arsenal' of 3 guns and a thousand (!!!) rounds of ammo found in the aftermath of some meth lab fire ... just keep in mind that odds are there's a normal, non-meth-brewing person with 10x as much living within a couple blocks of you.

They're not (generally) rogue tea-partiers stocking bunkers for the coming One World Government and UN troop incursions on American soil. They just like shooting the way some people like tennis, or knitting.

 

[WashMe]

To expand on this a bit ...

I find most people who don't shoot recreationally have a distorted view of what 'a lot' of ammunition is.

The majority of gun owners have a couple boxes of ammunition at home. They shoot a couple times a year, if even that much. If they have enough rounds on hand to load the gun, that's plenty. Hunters might shoot a couple rounds to confirm the zero on their deer rifle before hitting the woods. They might go through a box of 20 rounds every couple years.

Most non-gun-owners know a couple people like that, and get the idea that nobody really needs more than a couple boxes of ammo, and that only crazy people would need or want 100s of rounds on hand - much less 1000s, or 10s of thousands.


But people who actually shoot as a hobby or to remain proficient go to the range several times per month. Each time, they shoot 100s of pistol rounds. Depending on the rifle, they might shoot as much there too. If there's a 22 involved, it's not unreasonable to go through an entire $15-20 Wal-Mart bulk pack (333 - 550 rounds). For people who compete, going through 10s of thousands of rounds per year is common. When you're routinely shooting that much, the sensible thing to do is reload or buy cases, usually by mail order.


So next time you see some local news anchor get all wide-eyed (if the botox permits) and breathlessly report on an 'arsenal' of 3 guns and a thousand (!!!) rounds of ammo found in the aftermath of some meth lab fire ... just keep in mind that odds are there's a normal, non-meth-brewing person with 10x as much living within a couple blocks of you.

They're not (generally) rogue tea-partiers stocking bunkers for the coming One World Government and UN troop incursions on American soil. They just like shooting the way some people like tennis, or knitting.

excellent post... when I tell friends I have 8 guns and a couple thousand rounds of ammo, they act like I'm a maniac or something. If anything, I think there is an inverse relationship between the number of guns owned and the likelihood that a person will perpetrate violence with a firearm. Same goes for ammo.

 

[periopdoc]

Headed in to the Post Office for my quarterly estimated rendering unto Caesar, and I had this fantasy. What if, instead of shipping all this money into the black hole that is the IRS, I was expecting a definitive return... say NFA stamps.

What would I apply those 65 stamps to?

Don't forget to pay your taxes today.

-pod

 

[loveoforganic]

I hope to one day be the retired old fart shipping in 12 gauge by the pallet to feed a years worth of clay busting at a time

 

[pgg]

Headed in to the Post Office for my quarterly estimated rendering unto Caesar, and I had this fantasy. What if, instead of shipping all this money into the black hole that is the IRS, I was expecting a definitive return... say NFA stamps.

What would I apply those 65 stamps to?

I suppose we should be glad the NFA didn't index the tax to inflation, else you'd only be rendering 4-5 stamps worth unto Caesar.