What's the POINT of volunteering?

[LeFauconPelerin]

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Members don't see this ad.

Not that I don't see the benefit -- just thought I'd get more attention that way. Rephrased, the question is: what do adcoms look for in your volunteer experience?

I am sure you all have a wide variety of opinions on this, so let's have 'em.

The reason for my question is this: I've got about 600+ hours (full-time for two summers) of volunteering with missionary kids from my denomination. As a missionary kid (aka MK, or third-culture kid, aka TCK), I have a special perspective on the difficulties entailed in growing up overseas part-time and stateside part-time; so I sent two summers on a team designed to coach kids through the experience of uprooting and going to live overseas because of their parents' work.

Will this be derided because it is not medically inclined? How much volunteer work is 'adequate', and how much is 'competitive' (recognizing that those words aren't necessarily worth the pixels they're displayed on)?

And the corollary w.r.t. shadowing? What is a good quantity? I've got 160 hours of doing nothing but, divided about 1:1:2 in the ICU, ER, OR, as well as work in clinics while on a Fulbright. But is that enough?

Again, I recognize that quality is the ultimate determining factor. I would interpret 'quality' as meaning 'the degree to which the experience (changed your outlook on medicine)/(changed your life)/(engaged you emotionally)' etc. I've got that part down solid...I just don't know how much the sheer time commitment matters.

So -- is the point of volunteering to:
1) show a willingness to give back to your community
2) get you experience in a health care setting (an unspoken assumption being that pre-meds will naturally lean towards volunteering in hospitals, clinics, etc.)
3) show that you're disciplined enough to spend long hours doing something with no [immediately apparent] benefit (recognizing that ultimately it pays off in med school acceptance)

...or what?

Ah, what the heck...let me round out my questions about the three 'fuzzy' characteristics.

What's the deal with research experience? Does it need to be quantitative, lab-based stuff, resulting in a publication? Or can it be qualitative, interview/survey/book-based stuff, not necessarily resulting in publication? And if it's the latter, how do you package and present it?

Thanks for your thoughts!

 

[DrBowtie]

I would say your good with non clinical volunteering but you need clinical experience.
Usually the research is mostly lab stuff or clinical.

 

[gujuDoc]

The way the USF ADCOM member I talked to put it......

Volunteering was there to make it look like you were an altruistic side who shows compassion for others.

Shadowing was there to show that you've seen medicine outside of tv's ER or Chicago Hope or General Hospital.

But that's my understanding.

 

[LizzyM]

These are the questions in the back of my mind when I look at ECs:

is the applicant able to balance academics and other activities(employment/music/drama/sports/community service/research/etc) during the school year? (people who just study during the school year are boring)

what did the applicants do during the summers beginning with the summer after freshman year?

did the applicant use volunteer experiences to learn more about people different than himself? help people who are in need? learn to connect with others? demonstrate leadership skills?

did the applicant make good use of free time? does the applicant know how to relax & have fun?

With research:
the top research oriented medical schools are hoping to produce the next generation of academic physicians. Academic physicians do research during residency and fellowship and are expected to be bringing in grant money and publishing toward the end of their fellowship and on into their appointment to the faculty. Students who have experience with research are believed to be more likely to do research during medical school and to continue on along the academic track. If that's your goal, then you need to do some undergrad research. Most research open to undergrads is bench research although there are rare cases of students who have done human subjects research with survey instruments or questionnaires.

If you aren't interested in an academic career, then research is less essential but you might want to cross those top 30 research med schools off your list.

 

[Shredder]

600+ hours heh...better than my 0+. anyone else going self centered bastard? though admittedly i might give in this summer, not sure how much longer i can hold out. just remember the invisible hand.

 

[hopefulneuro]

How many hours are considered enough?? I am extending my graduation by a year so that I can get more of these stupid hours in so I can get into med school.

And I can hear some people say "You should be doing a service you enjoy", but that's total bs. I enjoy teaching people golf or tennis, but that stuff doesn't count, so I have to work in an er. I dont understand why if we're gonna be in a hospital/around sick people for most of our lives we can't just have a great time now. The whole volunteering thing just isn't the most practical or beneficial thing for either the needy or the more fortunate.

*Example..I went on a mission to mexico..very similar to habitat for humanity..we built a few houses for some families and constructed a sewage drain for an orphanage. So, we could not use power tools or machines like bobcats because it would "make it appear that the US is all about domination and technology and it rubs it in the Mexicans' faces about how backwards they are". Well, that philosophy is stupid. We could have built a whole town in the same amount of time if people truly wanted to help, not "help while making people feel good". Lame.Ok..i'm done..but please, someone please explain the reasoning behind comm. service? LizzyM, you have good thoughts.What's your take? Can people get in without it and with things like playing chess, reading voraciously, cooking skills...etc..like THINGS PEOPLE DO IN LIFE??? geez

 

[LizzyM]

The reason for having some exposure to sick people (in a hospital or other setting) is so that you know what you are getting into. That you are aware of the sights, smells and aggravations that go with the territory. If you still want to go into medicine after that, then good for you. It may also give you something to strive for through all the b.s that goes before the clinical years.

As for the volunteer work. In part it is about self-sacrifice. The life of a physician is one of self-sacrifice so giving up tennis & golf to serve others is part of the point. If you aren't willing to do that, go into something easier and more lucrative, like real estate or pharmaceuticals. 😉

The trick is to find something you love and find a way to use that to help others. You like to cook? -- volunteer to prepare food for a soup kitchen. Like to read? -- can you tutor young readers and discuss books with them?
Chess? maybe there is an inner city school or boys & girls club that needs a chess coach.

 

[hopefulneuro]

Hrmm..that's a good answer. Thanks Lizzy.

I do see the value of comm. service, but I still do not quite understand the self-sacrifice part. How does someone who volunteers in a soup kitchen make a better ct surgeon than someone who spends most free time horseback riding? If it's about proving character, this certainly does not do it because thousands of people volunteer selfishly. The interviews should be the judge of a person's character(sincerity/honesty/friendliness/compassion..etc).

And what about enjoying college and being able to relax? I don't know if I am the only one but sometimes I like to just walk around and do nothing. Or go to museums or lay in the grass. We're supposed to give those things up so we can prove we will be dedicated in the future? Perhaps as you stated medicine is not right for someone like me then.

It seems to me that having a doc who is able to enjoy him/herself out of work will enjoy going to work, be more attentive and successful, and will not get burned out so easily. I mean, people can only give of themselves to a point before they have nothing left. *Cardiologist recently left our local hospital because he didn't like the bureaucracy. Lost 100,000+, can't see any patients from before, and now has to drive 60 miles from his home to his new office. He finds it worthwhile because he uses those 120 miles to ride his motorcycle. Things like that (motorcycle riding or sewing or whatever it may be) are a part of life, and should be viewed as equally worthy as evidence of dedication and richness of character as community service.

 

[sierra89]

How many hours are considered enough?? I am extending my graduation by a year so that I can get more of these stupid hours in so I can get into med school.

And I can hear some people say "You should be doing a service you enjoy", but that's total bs.

Sometimes you could be lucky and find a service you actually enjoy. I didn't find one until a year ago. I'm a volunteer with the L.A. Maritime Institute, and what we do is serve as crew members on sailing vessels; the program targets kids in underserved communities to "use the sea to educate youth for life." The people there aren't volunteering to impress anyone else. They are there because they enjoy sailing and working with kids.

 

[blankguy]

I am with Lizzy.
To reinforce some points. Anybody can say "because I want to help people" the only way to tell whether you like it or get repulsed by sick people is to get exposure via volunteering. Hence through volunteering we find out a little about ourselves.
Also we get to know what is current in medicine, what are the issues facing it.
Last but not least we get to really see what doctors go through.

 

[hopefulneuro]

Hey Sierra, very good point. Volunteering in itself is a wonderful thing and I encourage everyone to do it.

My point is that I do not think it should be a requirement to get into medical schools. There is not necessarily a correlation between service and better doctors.

Also, some specialties are not patient focused. If someone wants to do radiology then it should be okay not to have experience in an outpatient clinic.

I would like to see more reliance on gpa and mcat and less on intangibles in the initial phases of the weeding out process. Perhaps make the requirements somewhat like a 3.6 min & 34 min, & then focus on extra stuff. The thought that someone who spent a few summers as a judge in the special olympics & with a 3.4 & 29 gets in before a 4.0, 42 & lots of things that he/she enjoyed doing without regard to resume beefing is disconcerting. Contrary to what people may think, we do not need friendly doctors; we need good ones. If they happen to be friendly after that then great!

 

[LizzyM]

But when we have 50 applications for every slot, we can be picky and take the good and friendly applicants.

I know 3 guys who matched into top radiology programs over the past 5 years. All were heavily involved in volunteer activities during med school. And with the interventional radiology coming along, knowing how to interact with patients is becoming more important. Likewise, some radiologists are now speaking directly with patients in mammography suites and bedside manner is going to matter.

The volunteering "requirement" is a way of weeding out the selfish b*stards. 😉

There is also the "what do you do for fun?" question. That's weeding out the gunners who volunteered just to check that off the "to do" list, who spend every free moment doing something they loath because mommy & daddy want them to (e.g. continuing with the violin or piano long after they stopped enjoying it) or because it is "essential" for getting into med school. One of my favorite interviewers used to ask applicants to the BS/MD program, "If you had a year off before starting the BS/MD, what would you do with the year?"

 

[imsotired]

Hey Sierra, very good point. Volunteering in itself is a wonderful thing and I encourage everyone to do it.

My point is that I do not think it should be a requirement to get into medical schools. There is not necessarily a correlation between service and better doctors.

Also, some specialties are not patient focused. If someone wants to do radiology then it should be okay not to have experience in an outpatient clinic.

I would like to see more reliance on gpa and mcat and less on intangibles in the initial phases of the weeding out process. Perhaps make the requirements somewhat like a 3.6 min & 34 min, & then focus on extra stuff. The thought that someone who spent a few summers as a judge in the special olympics & with a 3.4 & 29 gets in before a 4.0, 42 & lots of things that he/she enjoyed doing without regard to resume beefing is disconcerting. Contrary to what people may think, we do not need friendly doctors; we need good ones. If they happen to be friendly after that then great!

👎 Watch out....there are a lot of people with under 4.0s and 42s on this forum.

 

[45408]

One of my favorite interviewers used to ask applicants to the BS/MD program, "If you had a year off before starting the BS/MD, what would you do with the year?"

What kind of answer was the interviewer looking for? I think I'd see if I could work full time as an EMT and go on a few ski vacations. 😎

 

[bottles999]

So -- is the point of volunteering to:
1) show a willingness to give back to your community
2) get you experience in a health care setting (an unspoken assumption being that pre-meds will naturally lean towards volunteering in hospitals, clinics, etc.)
3) show that you're disciplined enough to spend long hours doing something with no [immediately apparent] benefit (recognizing that ultimately it pays off in med school acceptance)

From what I have heard to me it seems your points 1 & 2 are the main rationale for the volunteer experience. Point 2 specifically, the Adcoms want to know you really have a better feel for what it really is going to be like when you actually practice medicine. This gives an opportunity to atleast test the waters and detmermine if its right for you.
Point 1 is rather straight forward, yes, that is basically what they are looking for. Sign of compassion and giving.

As for the research, well, becoming a doctor requires life-long learing. its not 4+ years and your done. Its more like 4+ years and then keep current each year with the latest procedure, meds, or emerging illness in your area of field. in addition, those new procedures/meds/or understanding of the illnesses have to come from somewhere... all from medical research. Some ppl do choose that over a more clinical setting.

good luck and just ading my 2cents

 

[nicholonious]

Just food for thought,

My close friend I've known since high school worked as a lab RA for two years under a few neurosurgery docs, published a few papers, had a 35 MCAT...and...(dun dun) applied to med school and got rejected everywhere. He had the research experience. He had the background in whatever EC/volunteering/work experienced pertinent to medicine, yet fell short.

Interviews killed him. Just remember, doing all that you've done isn't the supporting back bone someone would think would help them stand tall. You've done lots of great volunteering, don't worry. If anything, you've done too much (if there was such a thing...)

 

[sierra89]

Hey Sierra, very good point. Volunteering in itself is a wonderful thing and I encourage everyone to do it.

My point is that I do not think it should be a requirement to get into medical schools. There is not necessarily a correlation between service and better doctors.

Also, some specialties are not patient focused. If someone wants to do radiology then it should be okay not to have experience in an outpatient clinic.

I would like to see more reliance on gpa and mcat and less on intangibles in the initial phases of the weeding out process. Perhaps make the requirements somewhat like a 3.6 min & 34 min, & then focus on extra stuff. The thought that someone who spent a few summers as a judge in the special olympics & with a 3.4 & 29 gets in before a 4.0, 42 & lots of things that he/she enjoyed doing without regard to resume beefing is disconcerting. Contrary to what people may think, we do not need friendly doctors; we need good ones. If they happen to be friendly after that then great!

Very good point. There are few things I hate more than watching people lie about how great their volunteer experiences were when they were only doing them to put on their resume. (In other words, when there was nothing altruistic in their motivation to volunteer.)

I just mentioned my one really positive volunteer experience because I hope that others have been able to find volunteer work they enjoy.

 

[LeFauconPelerin]

Very good point. There are few things I hate more than watching people lie about how great their volunteer experiences were when they were only doing them to put on their resume. (In other words, when there was nothing altruistic in their motivation to volunteer.)

I just mentioned my one really positive volunteer experience because I hope that others have been able to find volunteer work they enjoy.

Thanks a bunch for the feedback, guys. Very informative.

Sierra89 - I agree...that would suck. I haven't actually met any of those folks, but I can see how it'd be annoying. I guess I'm fortunate in that my volunteering/community service and stuff has come along naturally as part of doing what interested me or made me feel good -- which, stupidly enough, is part of why I'm insecure about it. Like Calvin's dad would say, crappy experiences build character. If I actually enjoyed the experiences, do they REALLY count? [rhetorical]

This is a little off my original topic, but all you responders seem to have good heads on your shoulders...so give it to me straight.

I'm aiming at med school because it's sort of the logical endpoint for the things I like (and have liked) doing. I really enjoy the coursework entailed in pre-med tracks, I love interaction with people, feel a deep-seated need to give back / make a contribution to the greater good, etc.

All that said, I don't have what you might call a 'burning desire' to be a doc. What I'm really good at is teaching and tutoring...so I see the logical intersection as pursuing medical studies and then becoming a prof. That said, I'm a polyglot, and have loved my experiences translating and interpreting. I could also just say 'To heck with it,' and go into teaching something else without spending a decade in medical studies. Having spent significant time overseas, I could also see myself getting involved in the foreign service or international development.

I guess it all comes to the 'intellectual curiosity' thing...I could be happy doing just about anything, as long as it's not something I know inside and out (and I can see the relevance). All the volunteering and whatnot has come about in the pursuit of random interests.

So how on earth do I sell this as a good thing, as opposed to flakiness? I mean, it doesn't feel like flakiness to me, but I understand that Adcoms sort of want to get this impression that if you don't get to be a doctor, you won't know what on Earth to do with yourself, since you're so committed and want it so bad -- know what I mean?

Guess I'm rambling again. Sorry.

 

[LeFauconPelerin]

Lizzy - w.r.t. the research, how key is it to have been published? Seems logical that not all of the accepted applicants to those top 30 schools can have been published (at least not as 1st or 2nd authors), but is that in fact the case? I mean, is it feasible to show lots of experience/time in lab, just with no publishable results? I mean, I'm not going to publish anything as a result of this fellowship I'm on, but I'd like to think it's worth more to adcoms than just the cachet of getting it to begin with.

 

[Hakashi]

The volunteering "requirement" is a way of weeding out the selfish b*stards. 😉

I don't know if I'd agree with this statement. Pretty much everyone who volunteers to medical school has volunteer work. Everyone knows (including ADCOMs) that it's not because you really want to do it, but because you want to get into medical school. So if someone is honest enough to say, "I had to work to pay for my education instead of volunteering", I'd be inclined to think the ADCOM would have no problem with that.

 

[gujuDoc]

The reason for having some exposure to sick people (in a hospital or other setting) is so that you know what you are getting into. That you are aware of the sights, smells and aggravations that go with the territory. If you still want to go into medicine after that, then good for you. It may also give you something to strive for through all the b.s that goes before the clinical years.

As for the volunteer work. In part it is about self-sacrifice. The life of a physician is one of self-sacrifice so giving up tennis & golf to serve others is part of the point. If you aren't willing to do that, go into something easier and more lucrative, like real estate or pharmaceuticals. 😉

The trick is to find something you love and find a way to use that to help others. You like to cook? -- volunteer to prepare food for a soup kitchen. Like to read? -- can you tutor young readers and discuss books with them?
Chess? maybe there is an inner city school or boys & girls club that needs a chess coach.

That can also be done without volunteering, by getting a job in a medical field. At any rate, the adcom member I spoke to said that volunteering vs. working in medicine gave two different messages.

 

[LeFauconPelerin]

...and those were?

I mean, it's presumably just semantics, but since the choice I'm facing for the coming year is whether to volunteer or get the paying job, I'm interested in the rationale.

 

[sKorpia]

I'm aiming at med school because it's sort of the logical endpoint for the things I like (and have liked) doing. I really enjoy the coursework entailed in pre-med tracks, I love interaction with people, feel a deep-seated need to give back / make a contribution to the greater good, etc.

All that said, I don't have what you might call a 'burning desire' to be a doc. What I'm really good at is teaching and tutoring...so I see the logical intersection as pursuing medical studies and then becoming a prof.

I'm in a similar boat, although much less enthusiastic about the coursework and more picky about the type of people interaction I like. For me, the lack of "burning desire" to be a physician has always been a sore, tacit unmentionable, something I just didn't want to face up to. But logically, I'm a good science student and I'd make a good doctor. Logically.

Medicine and teaching are definitely not exclusive. My animal physiology lab professor actually got his MD and practiced a few years before he decided that he wanted to teach more (and undergrads too, at that). He doesn't practice anymore, to the best of my knowledge.

That said, I'm a polyglot, and have loved my experiences translating and interpreting. I could also just say 'To heck with it,' and go into teaching something else without spending a decade in medical studies. Having spent significant time overseas, I could also see myself getting involved in the foreign service or international development.

I guess it all comes to the 'intellectual curiosity' thing...I could be happy doing just about anything, as long as it's not something I know inside and out (and I can see the relevance). All the volunteering and whatnot has come about in the pursuit of random interests.

It sounds to me like you need to nail down what skills you really enjoy utilizing. It's difficult while wanting to know everything and loving the process of learning to pin down any one thing that you could see yourself doing for the rest of your life. And, remember, most people don't end up staying in their careers for the rest of their lives anymore anyhow.

My dad recommended a book to me called "What Color is Your Parachute?" which I'm currently going through to help me figure this all out (my dilemma: medicine vs. literature). It's got some great introspective exercises, plus a lot of helpful tips on the jobhunt for later on in life if you should need them. However, this type of self-reflection will take some time; a solid weekend or its equivalent is what's suggested. On the other hand, I'd rather be certain going in than finding out I hate it halfway or all the way through.

You sound like you enjoyed your volunteer experiences, even if they weren't "medically inclined." So much the better then. If you go into volunteering in a medical setting just so it looks good on your application and not because you're actually interested in being there, the lack of enthusiasm shows when you talk about that experience and you're less likely to have gleaned some personal insight from it (unless it's finding out what you don't like).

 

[gujuDoc]

...and those were?

I mean, it's presumably just semantics, but since the choice I'm facing for the coming year is whether to volunteer or get the paying job, I'm interested in the rationale.

Well, according to the adcom who said this at one of our AED meetings.....

He said that if you volunteer it shows the humanitarian fuzzy sort of feeling by doing volunteering. But that said... I don't see the difference between the two. I'm just quoting what he said. And he's the one that actually sits on the adcom at USF med school.

He said that at USF they look for people that did volunteer work of some sort within the medical field because volunteer work shows the committment to service to others.

Now, as I said above, I don't see the difference between the two, but was just pointing out what was told to me. The only reason I thought I would put in there what he said was because they were asking what the point of volunteering was.

 

[LizzyM]

Again, it goes back to: how did this applicant choose to spend time outside of the classroom?

(in no particular order)
Varsity sports/intramural sports/independent athletics (e.g.marathons)
Officer in sorority or fraternity/R.A./club officer
School spirit (tour guide, advisory council, scholarship tel-e-thon)
Musician/singer/dancer/actor/improv
Leading worship services/teaching Sunday school/serving communion
Tutoring/teaching (children, peers, or adults)
Research & innovation
Work - non-medical (usually retail, food service, summer camp or clerical)
Military service
Volunteer, non-medical (also includes alternate spring break)
Volunteer, medical (child life is most common, then ER)
Work, medical (most often EMT or first responder, sometimes CNA or office)
Travel
Shadowing

No student is going to have everything on the list. Some of the things on the list might be more highly valued than others. The intensity of the experience counts (# of hours and # mos.) as does sticking with a program over a period of years and becoming a leader (team captain, president, coordinator of voluteers, etc).

Students in the military academies don't have many opportunities to voluteer but they tend to have at least a few of the other items - enough to qualify them for interviews. Same goes for non-traditional students who may have attended college while working and raising kids.

 

[45408]

...and those were?

I mean, it's presumably just semantics, but since the choice I'm facing for the coming year is whether to volunteer or get the paying job, I'm interested in the rationale.

If you opted for the paying medical experience, you must be broke. 😛 I know that was my case. I really had to turn up the heat on my job this year just to make a tuition payment. I'd volunteer for hundreds of hours if I could afford all that time - but then I would have to take a year off to work.