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What's the worse punishment you've gotten?

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by ericdamiansean, Apr 18, 2007.

  1. ericdamiansean

    ericdamiansean High Profiler

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    When you make a mistake ie. forget to clerk a bed, come late etc, what's the worst punishment that you've gotten so far? Other than being barred from the wards..
    I got my tummy pinched today and there's a bruise, for coming in 5 minutes late
     
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  3. Anka

    Anka Senior Member

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    Dude, what planet do you live on where you don't deck a guy for physically assaulting you? Or at least let him know it's not acceptable. That's totally messed up and not part of even the most malignant medical education.

    Anka
     
  4. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    That's an easy one to answer: The OP is guy, and his resident is a woman. He wouldn't smack a woman, even if she did pinch the hell out of him.

    Hmm, time to dredge up old memories (ie - 1-2yo memories). Worst "punishments" (ie - humiliations) I have endured.

    1) Physically shoved in the OR for inadvertently touching a recently prepped area with sterile gloves while prepping.

    2) Punched in the arm. This was supposed to be funny.

    3) Yelled at in front of the team for forgetting to present a single lab value during an ICU presentation (I know it happens all the time, but I'm just trying to be complete).

    4) Assorted name-calling, some in jest, some not.

    5) Forced 1hr didactic session at 1am for missing a pimp question during a delivery.

    I think that pretty much covers it.



    6)
     
  5. Anka

    Anka Senior Member

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    Hmmm... I guess one of the nice things about being a girl is not having a hangup about beating up girls. He could still say (firmly) "get your hands off me!" or sarcastically, "See, women just can't keep their hands off me."
     
  6. SLUser11

    SLUser11 CRS

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    One time, after I forgot to mention that a patient was diabetic, the attending held me down while the chief resident tickled me until I peed my pants.

    Another time, when I couldn't remember the layers of the abdominal wall, the intern grabbed my arms and kept bouncing them off my face, saying "Stop hitting yourself! Stop hitting yourself!"

    :(
     
  7. bones4u

    bones4u Residency>>>Med School

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    :laugh: that made my day, thanks
     
  8. RockShox

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    Sweet Jesus! Where do/did you go to school? Darfur? I hope your post was just a joke. I have never been "punished" for anything. Not really tolerated here. Anyway, to the OP anyone that grabs my stomach like that better damn well have a s**t load of disability insurance and a crich kit in their pocket. The LCME does not tolerate physical harm to medical students and I doubt your school does either.
     
  9. Bertelman

    Bertelman Maverick!

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    ...I would have said, WTF is wrong with you!?!"

    My worst punishment? Go drain that pus in the ED.
     
  10. ocean11

    ocean11 Senior Member

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    yeah my worst 'punishment' was just being yelled at "No, don't touch this" in the OR or "you're completely wrong" or cut up during a presentation.... but physically abused... no thats bad dude!!!
     
  11. ericdamiansean

    ericdamiansean High Profiler

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    Unfortunately, I wish that it was a lady, it was a guy, and he also pinches the females.
    And also hits students and other junior residents (apparently with a sense of humor) with a tendon hammer.

    I am going to do a half day detention at the labor room when the entire student team forgot to clerk a bed (due to a messed up bed distribution system)

    :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Now that's making something up!
     
  12. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    No joke, all those things really happened to me as an MS3.

    Of course the LCME doesn't tolerate physical abuse of med students, and neither does any school. But we (students) tolerate it, pretty frequently from what I've been able to tell. Sometimes it's meant as a "joke", other times it's a ritualistic hazing practice (seems more prominent in surgery). I don't know.

    The truth is, I took it and laughed because I wanted a badass rec from the folks who were dishing out the abuse. I chose to get lightly beat up from time to time (and I'm a fairly big guy, so it's not like it was that bad) and get my Ortho spot, rather than be the "complainer" who got everyone in trouble. Is that the moral choice? Of course not. But it was practical, I got what I wanted, and it paid off.

    Besides, I've dated women who did a ton more damage than that. :D
     
  13. ericdamiansean

    ericdamiansean High Profiler

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    But what if you felt that these attacks were racially motivated? Still suck it up?
     
  14. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    That was not my circumstance, and believe me, I'm not advocating that everyone else just "suck it up". I was only explaining the rationale for my own course of action. Or perhaps I was just trying to explain it to myself. I don't know.
     
  15. Anka

    Anka Senior Member

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    Do you feel you're bruise was racially motivated? Even if not, you realize it was completely inappropriate? It's fine if, like Tired, you suck it up and move on, recognizing that it was completely inappropriate but picking a different set of battles -- the problem comes in where you "agree to the system" and do it yourself in a few years. Anyway, I hope your bruise is healing up.

    Best,
    Anka
     
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  17. ericdamiansean

    ericdamiansean High Profiler

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    I've told myself countless of times that when I'm "up there" in the system, I'll try not to do this to others and hopefully put a stop to it.

    Anyway, someone accidentally used an extra bottle of Ringer's lactate today and it still had about 300cc left in the bottle..he was told to drink it up for wasting:laugh: (he didn't at the end though)
     
  18. jdh71

    jdh71 epiphany at nine thousand six hundred feet
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    Much to my dismay, I found myself crossways with a surgery attending. She would dole out all kinds of during rounds "presentations" for not knowing obscure facts, or basically not knowing what she was thinking at any given moment. She would use these "pesentations" to further humiliate me in fron of the rest of the attendings, residents, and students. I spent about two weeks like this, before I realized that game. I told her that I wasnt going to be doing her "punishments" anymore, that I was not a fool, and not here for her sick enjoyment. She amazingly left me alone after that, but like most emotional midgets she insisted I "pay" for not playing ball and wrote a pretty blistering eval. I merely went behind her back and had two other attendings fill out evals, which I took to the course coordinator. Explained the situation and magically and mysteriously the horrible eval disappeared. **** her.
     
  19. lord_jeebus

    lord_jeebus 和魂洋才
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    I thought some of these were extreme until today, talking to a 4th year from another school

    A resident poured trichloroacetic acid on his arm to demonstrate that it would be painful :eek:

    (his school took it very seriously)
     
  20. TerrierToy

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    I wouldn't say that every school doesnt tolerate med student abuse, even physical. At my school one very emotional (and male if it matters) ob/gyn attending squeezed my upper arm until it hurt, enjoyed hugging me and tell me that he "I love you" (albeit I am a male and he has a family), referred to me as a "dog" and would call me saying "here boy, here boy . . . " Routinely stated in front of other students saying he wouldn't want me to be a surgeon because I didnt know which exam room I walked out of on the first day, made fun of the way I talked, asked me why I don't have any common sense, (i.e. why didn't I cowar when he harassed me and didn't play into to his attempts to make me upset), would have me see the patient then come and announce that the "the doctor is here" and then berrate me in front of the patient, became enraged when I knew the answer to one of his arcane questions that supposedly didn't have an answer, insinuiated that I did poorly on step 1 (didn't), wonder why I did good in front of groups but when there were no witnesses with just him in the room I was doing horribly. Over 20 different times berrated me for greater than 15 minutes after each patient I had to see. Complained to the school and was told that they like to torture students and see how they swim and that I should go into research . . . Other respected ob/gyn wrote really glowing positive things about me i.e. excellent fund of knowledge etc . . . Although it may be narsicism to say this but, if you are talented in an area i.e. surgery, and an attending notices it, they can: A. Give you more interesting work, help you develop your skills further or B. Feel the need to make your life difficult because they feel threatened. Face it medicine, third year isn't about what it should be about i.e. helping patients and learning, it is 45% about learning to cope with harassment, sometimes severe and on a daily basis by attendings and residents who don't have the drive to teach but get theirs kicks out of kicking you.
     
  21. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    I get where you're coming from (believe me, I get it), but your experience on Ob/Gyn does not mean that your school tolerates the abuse. Did you go to see your Dean about it? The clerkship cooridinator? Bet you didn't.
     
  22. noncestvrai

    noncestvrai Member

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    I don't know, but it seems (me included) that Obs/Gyne is just the worst rotation ever.

    24+ calls without sleep, abusive residents/staff. f-ucked up nurses.

    Anyways, I'll never have to do Obs/gyn ever, I'll just carry the scars.
     
  23. SLUser11

    SLUser11 CRS

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    Sad but true. You learn a lot about how to eat s#@t as a third year....
     
  24. dilated

    dilated Fought Law; Law Won

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    WTF? I assume he got fired. TCA is *nasty*. It would be hard choice between popping the guy in the face and holding it in to get a fat cash settlement later. :smuggrin:
     
  25. ocean11

    ocean11 Senior Member

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    We had a horrible intern in OB/GYN who would scut us out like crazy. She was nice to me, but still scutted me out. It got to the point were she would ask us to photocopy something and then scream run to the photocopy machine faster and snap her fingers. Me and a few other students finally went to complain to the clinical coordinator and she got in s*&t. Actually after our group, a new policy was developed: interns were NOT allowed to evaluate students anymore.

    But your stories sound like abuse.... more than just the average scut work.... I mean thats bad!!!! my sympathies to you all!
     
  26. lord_jeebus

    lord_jeebus 和魂洋才
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    The resident was not fired, although she came very close. She is not allowed to have any contact with students for the remainder of her residency. There was additional disciplinary action as well, but I don't know the details. Fitting a common theme on this thread, she is in OB/Gyn.

    The student is not interested in legal action, although many have suggested it to him.
     
  27. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    That's punishment? :laugh:
     
  28. RockShox

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    All I can say is I am so glad I go to school where I do. This stuff just does not happen here. Even on Ob/Gyn the attending on the first day explained to us what scut was (anything not related to patient care, i.e. get a CD out of my car...) and said if any resident asked us to do it they would learn not to do it again. I can not think of a single instance when anything negative or harmful was inflicted on anyone. I guess I understand the concept of eating s**t and somewhere down the line you will be respected as a equal member but if you ask me this is just some strange medical student version of battered-wife syndrome. I really think that if you stand up for your self and set some limits that this stuff will stop. I mean its one thing for some dumb surgeon to be belittling but physical harm? That is inexcusable in my opinion.
     
  29. abbaroodle

    abbaroodle Member

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    I ended up with a stress-fracture on Ob-Gyn hobbling around on crutches. The residents joked that if the other student didnt give good presentations they would take him to the track and make him run laps until he got a stress fracture. :laugh: (Obviously my injury had nothing to do with my rotation!)

    I honestly can't tell if this thread is real or a joke, which I find really sad. I know people who have had less than excellent experiences at times, but that is usually either being ignored by the resident or told how they can improve (you need to work on being more concise in your presentations - lets meet me 10 mins before rounds tomorrow). Very rarely have I heard of someone being told they are lazy or need to care more or whatever.

    I hope anyone who is being abused or taken advantage of will speak up - to the course director, dean, whoever. If not for themselves for future students and the patients they care for!
     
  30. ericdamiansean

    ericdamiansean High Profiler

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    Reading the above made me feel that I am lucky (I'm the OP).

    I guess at times, it's hard to complain to the dean for fear of a bad eval, that's why we tolerate so much crap as students. No one ever wants to be a whistle-blower and when you are in a profession where exams can be pretty much subjective to examiner bias, it gives you more reason not to do anything.

    Thank God my Obgyn rotation's coming to an end, and I'll see how I would be evaluated. I know I've done my work, have never been late or skipped any classes so if I get a bad eval, I won't take it sitting down after the abuse I've received.
     
  31. Pox in a box

    Pox in a box 1K Member

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    I'm going to call BS on this one...you actually can verify what you've said thus far? Why stop at student contact?
     
  32. lord_jeebus

    lord_jeebus 和魂洋才
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    I sent you a PM; for the sake of the student's privacy I'd rather not post more detail on this thread.
     
  33. TerrierToy

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    "Complaing" or what I would call bringing up a legitimate case of abuse can back-fire on you, . . . ob/gyn professor in my case had harassed several other students, on each rotation he seemed to have a favorite target, and when I complained was told by dean, well he yells at everyone, and was told that it was my fault for not bringing it up earlier, and that the some professors has "old school" method of teaching. I don't think it is really old school, but just plain out and out being mean to medical students because they can get away with it. The higherup dean considered having students talk to this ob/gyn about how they felt when he made racially insensitive and just plain mean personal remarks to him, but nothing ever was decided. If you have tenure it is a right to do whatever you want apparently, it seems academic medicine attracts doctors who like to have power over others. I don't know why abuse is so prevalent in my experience on some ob/gyn services, (other hospitals are excellent). This prof talked alot about how "excellent" he was, but really, I don't his or anyone's patients are served well by an abusive attending, and would never let a relative come to that hospital for ob/gyn care. No one at my school really seem to care about student well-being i.e. mental and physical abuse, or other things that a school is supposed to care about, third year was a political exercise, not about even pretending to evaluate someone objectively in most rotations, the stress of harassment I believe decreases learning, and the adage that it helps learning only serves to support those who enjoy abusing students.
     
  34. raidermedic

    raidermedic MS IV

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    I've never been punished by residents or attendings. PAs are a different story. I had one rotation where PA's basically take the place of residents and as a result I worked directly "under them." Long story short there are also PA students on this rotatoin and the PAs love it when the PA students can show up the med students. So me and a PA student have a case presnentation for the attendings on the same day. PAs are all behind said PA student even going as far to "fix" her presentation by adding in their own input. Meanwhile I'm basically told to get bent. Well presentation comes and goes and the difference in training and knowledge depth is apparent in the presentations. PAs are so pissed that I dare show decent knowledge because the prevailing theory among them was student doctor raidermedic was a lazy ass because he dare not want to do scut after 34 hours on call (because PA students never complained when they did their 12 hour "call"). They didn't talk to me for an hour (could of cared less). They then appeared to make nice. The following week they proceeded to scut me nonstop then proceed to try and belittle me by nitpicking every little thing I did. Basically trying to assert their dominance.

    So yes that was my punishment for not laying down when they said so. It took every ounce of will power to not tell them to go to hell on my last day. Although after one made a snide comment of "hope we didn't work you too hard" I informed the group that my surgery residents had me working at a level that would make their blood run cold.
     
  35. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    That's such a great technique, and one that I've been able to use a couple times. It's a real kick in the 'nads when you tell them they are soft, and that other specialties make you work a lot harder.

    On Surgery: "I'm not tired at all. This is nothing compared to what the Ob/Gyn residents put me through."

    On Ob/Gyn: "Actually, this has been a nice vacation after all the work I did on Surgery."

    :D
     
  36. Hard24Get

    Hard24Get The black sleepymed

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    WTF? I am not a child. No one "punishes" me. I think the pretend punishment of coming up with a presentation on a topic you didn't know for the next day is totally appropriate and a good learning experience. Beyond that, we need to remember we are all adults, and no one has the right to assault us, physically or verbally. As a matter of fact, we are paying to learn to be physicians, and the attendings have chosen academic medicine as a job, whereas part of the residents' training is to learn to be good teachers. Thus, it is appropriate for us to teach them a lesson if they get so out of line, as jdh71 illustrated.
     
  37. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    Lots of big talk here, which is pretty much what I was saying as an MSI/II. A question though, any of you "I'm not taking no guff from the residents" posters ever actually find yourselves in one of these situations? Have you done 3rd year? What did you do?
     
  38. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated Army Strong

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    Eat s#@t = High pass

    Eat s#@t then say "that was delicious, can I have some more?" = Honors
     
  39. Caffeinated

    Caffeinated Army Strong

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    I feel the same way, and I hope that I can be the kind of intern, resident, and faculty that I enjoyed working with as a medical student. However, the reality is that most of us will do little to change the system. Most of us will be assimilated into the culture that blurs the line between being tough on students in order to bring out the best in them and abusing students for sport.
     
  40. Hard24Get

    Hard24Get The black sleepymed

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    I will be a 4th year next month, and I don't know anyone in my class that was physically abused, I highly doubt that is tolerated at my school.

    The few times I have been verbally abused I have defended myself. In fact, a fellow that had tried to stand me down during rounds complained at the end of the rotation that I was a great student, but argued too much. For defending myself? F*ck that. And I still got honors, with an attending commenting that I was professional even when I "disagreed" with others.

    I think it is easy to get brainwashed into thinking you have to stand for these things, but you really don't.
     
  41. ocean11

    ocean11 Senior Member

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    this is SO true ..... I've gotten A's in all my rotations so far b/c I've never talked back to a resident and kissed a$$, hate to admit it, but I've done it. Although, I was NEVER physically abused, or seriously verbally abused, maybe yelled at here or there but thats about it. I would say for me surgery was the worst and it was so hard to not say anything when the resident in the OR yells at you "don't touch that" when you're just trying to help. I swear if my eval wasn't on the line I would have said "I'm just trying to help, you don't like it I'm leaving", or "you don't have to yell" or just left the OR, although this was pretty rare that I would get yelled at sooooooo I just sucked it up. I think if I was getting yelled at daily, I would have stood up for myself. Needless to say my surg grade isn't back yet, I don' thave a great feeling about it.... but if I get a B I couldn't care less at this point... I have bigger things to worry about!!!

    Ocean11
     
  42. TheMightyAngus

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    This is unacceptable and completely ridiculous. Is having med students working directly under PA's unique to your school? I'm pissed off just thinking about it.
     
  43. Tired

    Tired Fading away

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    Get used to it. I never got put under a PA, but was pawned off on an NP, social workers, nurses, and any other ancillary staff that our faculty could con into taking us. They always dressed it up under the guise of "Seeing what other people in health care do", but I'm sure it was just their way of getting us out of their hair.
     
  44. Mayhem

    Mayhem Scut Bear

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    Yeah, you can't do much about it. Technically, our well child clinic was run by a doctor, but in practice the nurses had control and they were in charge of teaching and grading us. They also get a large chunk of our family medicine rotation. That's the way it works sometimes.
     
  45. ericdamiansean

    ericdamiansean High Profiler

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    I thought nurses were only "influential" in Obs:laugh: Fortunately, they were nice to me when I was doing my deliveries
     
  46. Top Gun

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    Only time I ever got close to be physically punished was being slapped on the hand with a set of Mayo scissors during a C-section.
     

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