What's your school's dismissal policy?

[Just Joshin]

Hearing about first years being dismissed this year is freaking me out. I always thought it was almost impossible to fail out first semester because schools give so many chances, but there's someone who just got back into med school after being kicked out first semester here on the Osteo board (Congrats, Bones!) and two others on the allo board who were just dismissed first semester. And there's one I know personally who was dismissed after one semester.

So what's your school's dismissal policy like? If allo students are reading, feel free to chime in.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DrBowtie]

Honestly, if you are worried about the dismissal policy, then it is a bad sign. Have some confidence you won't be in the bottom 5%.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Honestly, if you are worried about the dismissal policy, then it is a bad sign. Have some confidence you won't be in the bottom 5%.

I don't know -- I was worried about my school's dismissal policy but did just fine in medical school. I wasn't worried because I thought it was likely I would be that student, but I also really didn't know what medical school classes would be like.

About my school's policy. I go to an allo school. If you make a D in one class your first year, you can take a test in the summer in that subject. If you pass the test, you pass the course and move on. If you make an F in one class and a C or above in everything else, you have to retake the course in the summer. If you pass, again, you move on. If you either fail the test (for Ds) or the class (for Fs), you have to repeat first year. If you make a D or lower in 2 courses first year, you repeat the year. So basically the worst thing that will happen for poor performance 1st year is having to repeat the year. If you screw up your 2nd change at 1st year, dismissal might be an option. Some people also wind up having to repeat 2nd year and that's where I think you enter into the point where they might consider dismissal, but they might not dismiss you -- I know one person who repeated both 1st and 2nd year. But they're less flexible with the USMLE. Failing Step 1 3 times is automatic grounds for dismissal.

 

[rddoms]

Don't worry about failing out, that's a bad way to get started.

Most people are a bit nervous about the work required to get through medical school, but people rarely end up getting dismissed. My school allows for people between 65% and 69% in a class to retake the final. If they score over 70% on the final, they get a 70% in the class. If not, they go to a board review, explain their case, hopefully are allowed to 5th year.

The best thing you can do is KEEP UP IN CLASS and get help early if need be. Everybody who gets into medical school has the ability to succeed, but those who don't get help when needed may get into trouble.

If you can get in, you can make it. Medical school is hard work, but it definitely can be done.

 

[Bones DO]

Don't worry about failing out, that's a bad way to get started.

Most people are a bit nervous about the work required to get through medical school, but people rarely end up getting dismissed. My school allows for people between 65% and 69% in a class to retake the final. If they score over 70% on the final, they get a 70% in the class. If not, they go to a board review, explain their case, hopefully are allowed to 5th year.

The best thing you can do is KEEP UP IN CLASS and get help early if need be. Everybody who gets into medical school has the ability to succeed, but those who don't get help when needed may get into trouble.

If you can get in, you can make it. Medical school is hard work, but it definitely can be done.

God I wish that's how it worked at NYCOM!

 

[Just Joshin]

I'm sure all those people who failed out this year thought they wouldn't be in the bottom 5% either. I think it's good to know ahead of time what a school will do to help you. Not all schools let you repeat the year or give you so many chances.

 

[Bones DO]

I'm sure all those people who failed out this year thought they wouldn't be in the bottom 5% either. I think it's good to know ahead of time what a school will do to help you. Not all schools let you repeat the year or give you so many chances.

 

[KB24]

im getting kind of worried after reading this , anyone know what ccom's policy is

 

[JaggerPlate]

Don't go into it expecting to fail ... that's gonna lead to failure. Expect it to be hard, expect to have to work your ass off, but expect you have the aptitude to pull it off.

 

[Just Joshin]

Once again, it's not about going into it expecting to fail. Nobody EXPECTS to fail. But some people do, so what's wrong with knowing school's policies ahead of time?

It's just as important as knowing about third year rotations imo.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's just as important as knowing about third year rotations imo.

Eh, I really disagree with this. 3/4 years are probably the most important things to look into at DO schools (imo). I guess knowing the dismissal policies are important, I don't personally know the policy at the school I'm attending, but I know the 3/4 years probably as well as I possibly can at the moment. It seems to me that somewhere around 95% of the class graduates, but I don't think 95% of DO students are ecstatic about their 3/4 years. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think you should go into it knowing you have a big task ahead of you, but failing shouldn't be on the forefront of your mind ... save that for studying.

 

[ShyRem]

I would not be worrying about a school's dismissal policies. I'd be worrying about how to improve my study habits. You shouldn't go in thinking you might need the failure policy.

 

[engineeredout]

Supposedly here if you did poorly enough during the first semester you could get dropped down to a post-bac program, and that would be your chance for improving and getting back in to actual med. Scary.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I disagree with everyone who says this isn't something you should worry about. A friend of mine was recently dismissed from her school as a first year. No probation. No summer remediation. No repeating the year. Just out. That's a career-changer. I think every pre-med would be wise to find out which schools automatically dismiss you after one semester if you don't cut it versus which ones allow you to repeat the year or do summer remediation. It's nice to think you won't be one of the unlucky few, but my friend had good grades and a good MCAT and she had no reason to believe that adjusting would be so hard for her. But it was and now she's out. If she had gone to a school more lenient or at least willing to give her a chance to repeat the year, maybe she'd still be a doctor someday. Now she's out of luck. We're talking about the difference between being a doctor and not being a doctor. Cover all your bases. Know the "worst case scenarios." Choose wisely.

 

[FutureDocDO]

It's natural to worry about being dismissed. Just study hard and get help early if you're starting to slip. Don't wait 'til you're sitting at a low C to start freaking out.

Worrying about being dismissed can be a good sign. It's those that don't worry and have the attitude that medical school won't kick them out because they'll lose money are the ones that will get dismissed. I had a friend with that mentality. He failed 3 classes, decided that it's pointless to study for finals since he's going to have to repeat the 1st year (he assumed) no matter what. He ended up failing every class except one including OMM/OMT. He got kicked out; went lunatic.

For those interested in knowing where he is now, PODIATRY.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Supposedly here if you did poorly enough during the first semester you could get dropped down to a post-bac program, and that would be your chance for improving and getting back in to actual med. Scary.

This is a good policy. These are the things people should know ahead of time.

 

[Bones DO]

This is a good policy. These are the things people should know ahead of time.

I'd be totally fine with that! That's probably the best policy I've heard so far. Yet they won't consider a previously dismissed applicant . . . kind of ironic I'd have liked to have had the chance to interview there.

 

[FutureDocDO]

Supposedly here if you did poorly enough during the first semester you could get dropped down to a post-bac program, and that would be your chance for improving and getting back in to actual med. Scary.

That's one of two fates. Some are allow to do so while others are dismissed. How that's determined is beyond me.

I disagree that "it's scary" to have those students do a post-bacc and if they successfully pass (I believe they have to sign an agreement to get A's on everything) post-bacc, they're allowed to repeat 1st year. Although I know someone personally that didn't get A's on everything (had 2 B's) but still allowed to get back into 1st year. It's better than other schools, including MDs, allowing those students to repeat without having to prove themselves.

 

[Bones DO]

I disagree with everyone who says this isn't something you should worry about. A friend of mine was recently dismissed from her school as a first year. No probation. No summer remediation. No repeating the year. Just out. That's a career-changer. I think every pre-med would be wise to find out which schools automatically dismiss you after one semester if you don't cut it versus which ones allow you to repeat the year or do summer remediation. It's nice to think you won't be one of the unlucky few, but my friend had good grades and a good MCAT and she had no reason to believe that adjusting would be so hard for her. But it was and now she's out. If she had gone to a school more lenient or at least willing to give her a chance to repeat the year, maybe she'd still be a doctor someday. Now she's out of luck. We're talking about the difference between being a doctor and not being a doctor. Cover all your bases. Know the "worst case scenarios." Choose wisely.

She's not totally outa luck, tell her to get in touch with me...

 

[JaggerPlate]

For those interested in knowing where he is now, PODIATRY.

Not a bad place to be tbh.

 

[scpod]

It's just as important as knowing about third year rotations imo.

Knowing a school's policies is an important thing. But, if your opinion is that a school's policy on failures is as important as 3rd and 4th year rotations... then my opinion is that you need to start looking at another career.

 

[Just Joshin]

Knowing a school's policies is an important thing. But, if your opinion is that a school's policy on failures is as important as 3rd and 4th year rotations... then my opinion is that you need to start looking at another career.

I never said that the policy was as important as 3rd and 4th year rotations. I said knowing about the policy was just as important as knowing about 3rd and 4th year rotations. As in, it's an important piece of information to get during your research of the school. You can prioritize after that, but getting the info is important and something I never thought about until recently.

 

[DrBowtie]

I mean where does your exploration of failure procedures end?
Find policies on failure of COMLEX/USMLE?, failure on rotations?, failure to match, failure to pass resident inservice exams, failure to pass specialty certifications?

Out of my class, the 5% that didn't move on to second year were largely (all but 1 person) due to personal problems that could have been remedied with a LOA, but instead they tried to just suck it up and their grades showed.

Getting dismissed isn't like a lottery where if you draw the wrong number you are gone. You should know if you are remotely close to it after the first couple quizzes and exams and know you need to change study habits.

It should honestly be about the last thing on your mind when choosing a school. Maybe slightly above scrub colors issued in the hospital.

 

[Just Joshin]

I mean where does your exploration of failure procedures end?
Find policies on failure of COMLEX/USMLE?, failure on rotations?, failure to match, failure to pass resident inservice exams, failure to pass specialty certifications?

Those aren't the same. Failing a couple of classes first semester of your first year isn't the same as failing your boards multiple times or failing in-service exams. I'm assuming that everyone who gets to med school has a decent academic record and is capable of passing. So failing first semester courses is probably the result of adjustment problems. I just think that it's important to know which schools won't care and kick you out after only a few months.

 

[DrBowtie]

Those aren't the same. Failing a couple of classes first semester of your first year isn't the same as failing your boards multiple times or failing in-service exams. I'm assuming that everyone who gets to med school has a decent academic record and is capable of passing. So failing first semester courses is probably the result of adjustment problems. I just think that it's important to know which schools won't care and kick you out after only a few months.

Quite frankly, kicking you out after your first semester if you are going to fail further on is doing you a favor by saving you an immense amount of debt.

 

[Sam212]

im getting kind of worried after reading this , anyone know what ccom's policy is

You fail two courses, you are done, dismissed!

 

[thepoopologist]

Quite frankly, kicking you out after your first semester if you are going to fail further on is doing you a favor by saving you an immense amount of debt.

Yes, but how do you separate those who "are going to fail further" from those who simply had trouble adjusting to first semester and might do fine if given a second chance?

Getting dismissed isn't like a lottery where if you draw the wrong number you are gone. You should know if you are remotely close to it after the first couple quizzes and exams and know you need to change study habits.

It should honestly be about the last thing on your mind when choosing a school. Maybe slightly above scrub colors issued in the hospital.

Now you're being a condescending ass.

Nobody who wants to succeed goes into first year with a "in case I fail" mentality. However, it's important to stay as informed as possible. I passed first semester but did not expect to struggle to the extent that I did. You can bet I checked the dismissal policy multiple times a week last semester, not because I wanted to get dismissed, but to know that in the event that I failed a class (or two or three), that the school wasn't going to **** me out like yesterday's lunch. Not once during that time did I wonder what the scrub colors issued at the hospitals were. Hey I have a suggestion, try looking at things from a different point of view.

 

[Gabby]

Quite frankly, kicking you out after your first semester if you are going to fail further on is doing you a favor by saving you an immense amount of debt.

That's ridiculous. A lot of people have trouble first semester and end up turning things around by the end of first year.

 

[Bones DO]

That's ridiculous. A lot of people have trouble first semester and end up turning things around by the end of first year.

 

[DrBowtie]

Yes, but how do you separate those who "are going to fail further" from those who simply had trouble adjusting to first semester and might do fine if given a second chance?

Now you're being a condescending ass.

Nobody who wants to succeed goes into first year with a "in case I fail" mentality. However, it's important to stay as informed as possible. I passed first semester but did not expect to struggle to the extent that I did. You can bet I checked the dismissal policy multiple times a week last semester, not because I wanted to get dismissed, but to know that in the event that I failed a class (or two or three), that the school wasn't going to **** me out like yesterday's lunch. Not once during that time did I wonder what the scrub colors issued at the hospitals were. Hey I have a suggestion, try looking at things from a different point of view.

That's ridiculous. A lot of people have trouble first semester and end up turning things around by the end of first year.

The perspective is that along the process to become a doctor, there are literally probably 50 major hurdles along the way from college to retirement. If you have gotten into medical school you have passed probably 1/3 of them and then 95% of people pass the first year hurdle which is considerably greater odds than even getting into medical school. It's about the same odds (95%) as passing COMLEX/USMLE, and yet people like to ask about which has the highest pass rates too.

The main point is not to fixate on such low probability worries. Focus on studying. If after the first exam, you did poorly, then you can start worrying about it but until then why worry? Who knows you might be in the top 5% of students rather than the bottom 5%.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I think the main point isn't necessarily the dismissal policy, but what does school X do to when you start to struggle in your courses. Do they have a 2 or 3 strikes you out rule, or do they attempt to protect their investment and truly offer you help and remediation. I think this really says alot about the school you attend. I want to go to a school that is really invested in me becoming a good physician versus a school that gives me a strikeout rule for failing courses.
If a school invests in your education and you are continually failing courses then maybe you need to look for another career. But if a school kicks you out after you fail 2 or 3 courses and offer you no real chance of remediation then how can you conclude that person was or is incapable of becoming a good physician?

PS. What's TOURO NV policy??

 

[mrsmith]

I think the main point isn't necessarily the dismissal policy, but what does school X do to when you start to struggle in your courses. Do they have a 2 or 3 strikes you out rule, or do they attempt to protect their investment and truly offer you help and remediation. I think this really says alot about the school you attend. I want to go to a school that is really invested in me becoming a good physician versus a school that gives me a strikeout rule for failing courses.
If a school invests in your education and you are continually failing courses then maybe you need to look for another career. But if a school kicks you out after you fail 2 or 3 courses and offer you no real chance of remediation then how can you conclude that person was or is incapable of becoming a good physician?

PS. What's TOURO NV policy??

TOURO NV's policy can be found in the Student Handbook (link to the pdf file can be found here):

http://www.tun.touro.edu/current-students/current-resources.php

Long story short, it looks like it is made on a case-by-case basis. If you want to read the full details, they are spelled out between pages 39 and 47.

 

[Gabby]

Case by case is a dangerous way to do things. That's just begging for students to compare themselves to their classmates and ask why John Doe isn't being dismissed if they are.

Applicants -- find out what your school's dismissal policy is ahead of time AND find out about the appeals process. Is it pretty much a formality or can a student be re-instated through appeal. Ask those questions because it's important.

 

[sKanKY hOe]

I guess I never really understood the fear of failing because like some people on here have said, you can't keep looking forward to how you might fail at every step.

That said, it is wise to just take a look at the school's policy. But why don't you worry about that after you get into the school of your choice? Most schools are reasonable. BTW, at my school it's something like this: COMP - fail 1 class, take a makeup exam, fail it again take the course over in summer, fail more than 1 or 2 classes after all that, retake the year.

My advice would be to find some medical students in their first or second year the weekend before an exam and see if you can "shadow" them for a day of their everyday activities - or just ask them about how much and how they study, or how their lives have changed bc of med school.

I had a lot of friends in med school before I entered and that helped keep me grounded and realistic about what challenges I was going to face when I started - it's not like being in undergrad anymore and you need to see if you can handle the load (mentally and study-wise)

 

[ShyRem]

"shadowing" a med student before their exams may or may not be good. I have a family - my weekends before exams I was cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping, helping with homework, being the Mom Taxi, settling fights, and in between all that I would eek in some review. My studying took place from 10pm - 1 or 2 am. I never failed a class.

Some students didn't study much before exams, having kept up on everything in between exams. You need to figure out how you study best and do it. Faithfully.

 

[kingk]

i know dismissal is hard, one of the medical school in caribbean SABA univeristy school of medicine is the worst ever medical school when it comes to administerative help. No doubt the school is approved in all states but there administration is very unprofessional. All they care about is how to get you admitted and then no help from them at all, so before anyone looks into this medical school make sure to ask students who graduated from there about there experiance with administrative staff specially clinical department.

 

[smarty666]

It might not make you that competitive for high demand/competitive residency specialties but just follow the motto, C's get Degree's and you won't have to worry about a dismissal policy at all.

This is the motto my friends in Vet School and DO School have told me they heard.

 

[Igor4sugry]

I think it is important for MS-Is to be aware that no med school has 100% passing rate.
People fail out during 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th year, and then during residency (especially surgery).

If you do not put in the effort, and cannot pass exams no one will put up with it. Also the thought of being $150k+ in dept, and kicked out with zero marketable skills should be enough of an impetus to study and get through this.

 

[NJWxMan]

Medical schools that are tough in terms of attrition and doing so for the good of the student. Would you rather pass on by with little struggle and then get to the COMLEX I, II, or III and realize that you can't pass the high stakes exam? I cringe when I hear of second year residents that are taking COMLEX III for the FOURTH time. Honestly, it's better to fail out during 1st semester than to get through with C's and find that you are $150G in debt, and can't get licensed.

 

[EmersonAnne]

It might not make you that competitive for high demand/competitive residency specialties but just follow the motto, C's get Degree's and you won't have to worry about a dismissal policy at all.

This is the motto my friends in Vet School and DO School have told me they heard.

You can't make that kind of statement. There are plenty of people who knew that "C's get Degrees" who failed out. Just because you WANT a C, doesn't mean you get one.

To tell anyone they won't have to worry about a dismissal policy is rubbish. Sorry. Everyone should know their school's dismissal policy.

 

[phospho]

Honestly, it's better to fail out during 1st semester than to get through with C's and find that you are $150G in debt, and can't get licensed.

Dude, no offense, but that's BS and you know it.

When you spend half your freakin' life trying to get into medical school, and then get kicked out after your performance in your FIRST semester, that isn't right - no matter how you spin it.

I'm in an allo program, and I pretty much failed every exam in the first semester. I wasn't used to medical school, or the amount of material we had to digest in such little time. They got me tutors (for free), tried to figure out what was wrong with me, and I have nailed every single test since then, working my way up to the 76th percentile. If my school were to go by your rules, I would be doing waitressing right now - not medicine. I've spent the last decade trying to be where I am right now, and you actually want to take it away from me after one semester?

It's a shame that there are schools out there who would actually do this to their own students. Too many MD/DO schools follow your rule, and in my opinion should be stripped of any accreditations and not be allowed to teach anyone anything. When a school kicks you out after the first semester, they're not a school anymore - they're just another business that's out there trying to make a buck - a complete disgrace to what our profession stands for (at least in my opinion)...

Knowing that your school has your back, to a certain extent, will go a very long way.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It's a shame that there are schools out there who would actually do this to their own students. Too many MD/DO schools follow your rule, and in my opinion should be stripped of any accreditations and not be allowed to teach anyone anything. When a school kicks you out after the first semester, they're not a school anymore - they're just another business that's out there trying to make a buck - a complete disgrace to what our profession stands for (at least in my opinion)...

Oh Brother ...

I get that this affected you and it's personal, but calm down. Don't start accusing schools of being money grubbing, cash grabbers, or implying they should be shut down. Way too dramatic. Realize that most US schools (MD and DO) are very, very student forward/focused. One of my biggest selection factors in the DO school I picked was how student forward/focused they are.

 

[karizma098]

ccom's policies get stricter and stricter every single year.

they have combined anatomy into 1 year long grade, same for OMM and their clinical course. the clinical course and omm are 3 semesters, anatomy is 2, physiology and neuro are divided up into individual quarters.

if you fail 1 class = summer school retaking the whole class again. if you fail 2 classes, you are kicked out. there is no remediation.

here's the catch. our omm and clinical course count as 3 credits - 1.5 classes. so if you fail "ICM" ( intro to clinical med .. ) or OMM lecture/lab and yes, people have failed them - you are kicked out of school.

the clinical med courses at CCOM are surprisingly hard. there are MS2's in our class who are getting A's and B's in path , pharm, and micro , and failing the 2nd year clinical med course.

they have kicked kids out here at CCOM that failed a course their last quarter of ms2 year, had already taken * and passed * the comlex by the time grades came out...sucks big time.

 

[phospho]

Oh Brother ...

I get that this affected you and it's personal, but calm down. Don't start accusing schools of being money grubbing, cash grabbers, or implying they should be shut down. Way too dramatic. Realize that most US schools (MD and DO) are very, very student forward/focused. One of my biggest selection factors in the DO school I picked was how student forward/focused they are.

Yeah, the post might have been a bit more dramatic than I was aiming for.

It happened to a good friend of mine who goes to a different Ohio school. She was just like me, a nontrad, had taken the MCAT while working full time, while finishing the prereqs, and had been out of the loop for so long that it didn't come to her naturally when school started (i.e. also like me). She was kicked out, just like that - right after the 1st semester. It broke my heart to see that they wouldn't give her another chance, while other schools are giving their students chances. I very easily could have been in her shoes, and I think that's what scares me the most (and makes me so thankful that my school isn't like that).

 

[p30doc]

Yeah, the post might have been a bit more dramatic than I was aiming for.

It happened to a good friend of mine who goes to a different Ohio school. She was just like me, a nontrad, had taken the MCAT while working full time, while finishing the prereqs, and had been out of the loop for so long that it didn't come to her naturally when school started (i.e. also like me). She was kicked out, just like that - right after the 1st semester. It broke my heart to see that they wouldn't give her another chance, while other schools are giving their students chances. I very easily could have been in her shoes, and I think that's what scares me the most (and makes me so thankful that my school isn't like that).

That is awful, people need to be a given a fair chance at this level. It is something most of us have never experienced before, the volume, the pace, etc. I think schools should at least give the option to start over and repeat M1 if you fail too many classes the first semester, instead of just giving the boot to the student.

 

[Just Joshin]

Yeah, the post might have been a bit more dramatic than I was aiming for.

It happened to a good friend of mine who goes to a different Ohio school. She was just like me, a nontrad, had taken the MCAT while working full time, while finishing the prereqs, and had been out of the loop for so long that it didn't come to her naturally when school started (i.e. also like me). She was kicked out, just like that - right after the 1st semester. It broke my heart to see that they wouldn't give her another chance, while other schools are giving their students chances. I very easily could have been in her shoes, and I think that's what scares me the most (and makes me so thankful that my school isn't like that).

My friend attends a medical school where she and three of her classmates were kicked out after first semester of MS1 for academic difficulties. They all appealed. She won her appeal and was re-instated, but the other three didn't unfortunately. They were dismissed just like that.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Yeah, the post might have been a bit more dramatic than I was aiming for.

It happened to a good friend of mine who goes to a different Ohio school. She was just like me, a nontrad, had taken the MCAT while working full time, while finishing the prereqs, and had been out of the loop for so long that it didn't come to her naturally when school started (i.e. also like me). She was kicked out, just like that - right after the 1st semester. It broke my heart to see that they wouldn't give her another chance, while other schools are giving their students chances. I very easily could have been in her shoes, and I think that's what scares me the most (and makes me so thankful that my school isn't like that).

Is she going to reapply to medical school?

 

[Bacchus]

For PCOM:

Fail one class, remediate during the summer. Fail two classes, repeat the year. Dismissal from there on out, I believe.

 

[phospho]

Is she going to reapply to medical school?

She is, but her chances of getting in (as everyone knows) are pretty much nil, and she knows that. It's either the carib, or going into another field. And that's unfortunate. It's extremely unfortunate. If worse comes to worse (which it most likely will), the last decade of her life has gone to waste.

 

[phospho]

For PCOM:

Fail one class, remediate during the summer. Fail two classes, repeat the year. Dismissal from there on out, I believe.

that's how it should be... at least in my opinion...